A Tale of Green Slottables

spoqster

Once upon a time there was a merry ESO player who decided to go pickpocketing.
Marking his target on the map, he slots Gifted Rider and War Mount to ride there faster.
When he arrives, he slots Sustaining Shadows, Cutpurse's Art and Homemaker to improve his thieving chances and thieves until his pockets are full.
For the ride back he slots - again - Gifted Rider and War Mount.
But what's that? A treasure chest by the road! Before he opens it he slots Treasure Hunter.
Back on his horse and he rides past a fishing spot. Back into the Champion System to slot Reel Technique and Angler's Instincts.
The fish are plentiful and he decides to fish some more.
Is that a cornflower node he sees on the way to the next fishing hole? Wouldn't want to let that go to waste! Back again into the Champion System to slot Master Gatherer and Plentiful Harvest.
With plenty of fishing and and some harvesting done it's finally time to ride back to town. Back into the Champion System to slot Gifted Rider and War Mount - yet again.
To sell his loot for more he slots Infamous as he arrives in town.
Now on the way to the Thieves' Den, he passes by a crafting station and wants to quickly decon some gear. Back to the Champion System to slot Meticulous Disassembly.
Oh! And quickly stop at a merchant to repair his gear. Back into the Champion System to slot Professional Upkeep.

I think by now it's clear to everyone where I'm going with this.

Obviously no one will play like that, but that's not my point.
My point is that the green CP tree actually disincentivizes distraction-based gameplay. That same gameplay experience that we've all come to love in Skyrim is turned into a painful experience.

I predict most people will stop doing side activities for which they don't have the slottables equipped - because it's a) not efficient to switch them and b) feels bad to do them without the slottable. For those players who do change them, their experience becomes extremely cumbersome.

It comes down to bad design, really. The green slottables don't influence each other. It doesn't make you an overpowered thief if you're good at fishing. The idea of slottables makes a lot of sense for the blue tree, but it makes no sense whatsoever for the green tree. They just make the gameplay experience unnecessarily cumbersome. You never actually pickpocket, fish, repair, sell, loot, harvest and ride at the same time.


TLDR

The green slottables should all be passives so that they are all active at the same time.

Hallothiel

Totally and utterly agree.

Whilst I love me some trials, and some pvp, I also thoroughly enjoy pootling around of an evening, doing all the stuff you mention, especially when doing surveys & maps.

Green slots has kinda ruined the ease of this.

Wish that they had made them all passives.

remosito

full support :-)

Rukia541

It shouldn't even need to be said, as its obvious to everyone but them, agree atrocious design.

Fischblut

But what's that? A treasure chest by the road! Before he opens it he slots Treasure Hunter.

And then the plot gets darker: other player already opened the chest while our hero was replacing his Champion abilities

Indigogo

The green tree could have been the one redeeming feature that sold all this rework to me. Something to feel rewarded for your grind.
Instead we got this mess of a system... and to rub salt in the wounds, actual nerfs to force you to allocate cp, like increasing wayshrine costs, decreasing gold you get from Chests etc.

DragonRacer

I don't generally try to deride ZOS.

But the green tree is the most horribly thought-out thing I have ever seen.

It feels like we're honestly being punished for - how dare we - wanting to harvest nodes, hunt treasure chests and furniture plans, and be a crafter.

Taking things that were once passives and making them have to be slotted in a limited slot scenario is a slap in the face.

spoqster

Fischblut wrote: »

But what's that? A treasure chest by the road! Before he opens it he slots Treasure Hunter.

And then the plot gets darker: other player already opened the chest while our hero was replacing his Champion abilities

Brilliant :-)

Hapexamendios

Well said. Agree completely.

Fennwitty

Fischblut wrote: »

But what's that? A treasure chest by the road! Before he opens it he slots Treasure Hunter.

And then the plot gets darker: other player already opened the chest while our hero was replacing his Champion abilities

Back into the CP menu to slot Shadowstrike

Kiyakotari

Pssst. If on PC Jack of all Trades addon is worth a look for this issue.

Starlight_Whisper

Yep! It's just poor design for green more then anything.

Also my deepest condolences console and stadia players

Red_Feather

If for performance reasons the system of slotting has to remain, then I think it would feel more rewarding if committing to a perk for more time increased its effectiveness. The way it is right now a player feels punished for not swapping because they aren't being rewarded for sticking to their perks.

For example having a perk slotted for 1 hour boosts it, then 2 hours more boosts it even further.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Agreed. It's an extremely frustrating design and yet another idea horribly implemented in a long list of ideas horribly implemented.

Ezhh

More than one time I've already skipped picking a flower I'd have usually stopped to collect, because I've realised it would be slow and/or have no chance of dropping an extra which - and the original poster here picks up on it exactly - feels bad!

But the time to stop, switch CP.... this also feels bad. And so I shrug, move on, leave the flower there, all while feeling mildly dissatisfied and a bit more unhappy with the game. It comes down to feeling like my time is not respected. I've seen others say the same, but it really is this simple.

And no, an add on like Jack of All Trades (though I'm very grateful to the author) does not make it okay. This shouldn't be an issue an addon is needed to solve, not to mention they've added a cooldown to switching slottables which makes it less useful anyway.

I really feel like they made this system work with blue/red CP then just shrugged and thought "well, now we have to do it with green as well". But for green it's just a micromanagement nightmare.

ck37090

Yeah, they completely botched it on this one, I wonder, did nobody give feedback when it was on the pts? Hope they fix this nonsense soon

Dojohoda

I'd give you 100 Agrees if I could.

Ingenon

I play on console. I have enough champion points now that most of my slottables are allocated, and I do not plan to change them until the next time ZOS redesigns CP. The interface that ZOS has provided for changing slottables using the console controller is user hostile, in my opinion.

SerraKBella

Kiyakotari wrote: »

Pssst. If on PC Jack of all Trades addon is worth a look for this issue.

As a console player, this is the first add-on that really makes me feel like PC players are playing a different game than console players. Having the Jack of all Trades add-on means they can seamlessly do all the stuff we could previously do, but not have to stop and play the highly disruptive green tree mini swap game. I know PC players will say that we are not on the same system so why does it matter if they benefit from this, but this one add-on really does change the game for those who have access to it, and stings for those that do not.

I don't mind having to choose a few perks at a time, but some of the green tree slots should be changed to passives. We still have to earn the CP to fill those skills, but having to switch around so much for basic things like harvesting node time or repairing armor is very discouraging.

spoqster

Ezhh wrote: »

More than one time I've already skipped picking a flower I'd have usually stopped to collect, because I've realised it would be slow and/or have no chance of dropping an extra which - and the original poster here picks up on it exactly - feels bad!

But the time to stop, switch CP.... this also feels bad. And so I shrug, move on, leave the flower there, all while feeling mildly dissatisfied and a bit more unhappy with the game. It comes down to feeling like my time is not respected. I've seen others say the same, but it really is this simple.

And no, an add on like Jack of All Trades (though I'm very grateful to the author) does not make it okay. This shouldn't be an issue an addon is needed to solve, not to mention they've added a cooldown to switching slottables which makes it less useful anyway.

I really feel like they made this system work with blue/red CP then just shrugged and thought "well, now we have to do it with green as well". But for green it's just a micromanagement nightmare.

Yes. One of the objectives of good game design should always be to give the player a good feeling. That can mean that you give the player multiple good options. But forcing the player into a situation where he has only bad options is not good game design.

MasterSpatula

ck37090 wrote: »

I wonder, did nobody give feedback when it was on the pts?

Oh, my Sweet Summer Child. The PTS isn't for rethinking the fundamentals of a system they've already designed. It's for minor tweaks and the fixing of some bugs (though never, ever all of the bugs reported). There was never a chance they were going to change the green tree.

This is why Morrowind was the last PTS I'll ever participate in--because much as someone above said the green tree feels disrespectful to our time, the PTS is also disrespectful of our time. On PTS, we spend time that could be spend progressing our actual characters all so the catastrophic bugs and stunning failures of design we report go live anyway. Our donated time is discarded.

Remember, time is the measurement of our lives, and the value you place on a person's time is precisely the value you place on the person. From our time on the PTS being wasted to new systems designed to willfully waste our time, a pattern becomes clear.

Hotdog_23

MasterSpatula wrote: »

ck37090 wrote: »

I wonder, did nobody give feedback when it was on the pts?

Oh, my Sweet Summer Child. The PTS isn't for rethinking the fundamentals of a system they've already designed. It's for minor tweaks and the fixing of some bugs (though never, ever all of the bugs reported). There was never a chance they were going to change the green tree.

This is why Morrowind was the last PTS I'll ever participate in--because much as someone above said the green tree feels disrespectful to our time, the PTS is also disrespectful of our time. On PTS, we spend time that could be spend progressing our actual characters all so the catastrophic bugs and stunning failures of design we report go live anyway. Our donated time is discarded.

Remember, time is the measurement of our lives, and the value you place on a person's time is precisely the value you place on the person. From our time on the PTS being wasted to new systems designed to willfully waste our time, a pattern becomes clear.

On console so no PTS but I get the feeling you are correct in your assessment of it and how ZOS sees and uses it.

The only reason I wish console had one is so I could actually see how things look and feel in a house. The preview is terrible on console and with no easy way to return item you purchased if it doesn’t fit the way you thought it would you are stuck with it.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Fennwitty

It was certainly reported on the PTS forums multiple times in multiple threads.

Tyrobag

Yeah. I get limiting the combat tree, but there's no reason we should have to slot the craft stars. Its just a major pain in the *** . They also need to seperate out the stars. Why should we have to take completely unrelated perks that we don't want (often very expensive ones for this tree) just to get to the ones we do? None of this stuff affects combat, just let us get what we want and keep it up.

Cheyenne

DragonRacer wrote: »

I don't generally try to deride ZOS.

But the green tree is the most horribly thought-out thing I have ever seen.

It feels like we're honestly being punished for - how dare we - wanting to harvest nodes, hunt treasure chests and furniture plans, and be a crafter.

Taking things that were once passives and making them have to be slotted in a limited slot scenario is a slap in the face.

This. It's a game and should be fun. I shouldn't feel like I'm being punished for having set up my main long ago to be a well-rounded character.

LostHorizon1933

You know, the only thing I care about is the stupid perk that allows you to gather things faster.

I had just reached 75 points in The Thief before the change, and just unlocked it.

Now? It's just like signing up on the list for the Covid Shot. I'll be here in the back of the line until December.

Stanx

Agreed. Can live with the other two CP trees but my QOL has taken a nose-dive with green CP

iksde

spoqster wrote: »

Once upon a time there was a merry ESO player who decided to go pickpocketing.
Marking his target on the map, he slots Gifted Rider and War Mount to ride there faster.
When he arrives, he slots Sustaining Shadows, Cutpurse's Art and Homemaker to improve his thieving chances and thieves until his pockets are full.
For the ride back he slots - again - Gifted Rider and War Mount.
But what's that? A treasure chest by the road! Before he opens it he slots Treasure Hunter.
Back on his horse and he rides past a fishing spot. Back into the Champion System to slot Reel Technique and Angler's Instincts.
The fish are plentiful and he decides to fish some more.
Is that a cornflower node he sees on the way to the next fishing hole? Wouldn't want to let that go to waste! Back again into the Champion System to slot Master Gatherer and Plentiful Harvest.
With plenty of fishing and and some harvesting done it's finally time to ride back to town. Back into the Champion System to slot Gifted Rider and War Mount - yet again.
To sell his loot for more he slots Infamous as he arrives in town.
Now on the way to the Thieves' Den, he passes by a crafting station and wants to quickly decon some gear. Back to the Champion System to slot Meticulous Disassembly.
Oh! And quickly stop at a merchant to repair his gear. Back into the Champion System to slot Professional Upkeep.

I think by now it's clear to everyone where I'm going with this.

Obviously no one will play like that, but that's not my point.
My point is that the green CP tree actually disincentivizes distraction-based gameplay. That same gameplay experience that we've all come to love in Skyrim is turned into a painful experience.

I predict most people will stop doing side activities for which they don't have the slottables equipped - because it's a) not efficient to switch them and b) feels bad to do them without the slottable. For those players who do change them, their experience becomes extremely cumbersome.

It comes down to bad design, really. The green slottables don't influence each other. It doesn't make you an overpowered thief if you're good at fishing. The idea of slottables makes a lot of sense for the blue tree, but it makes no sense whatsoever for the green tree. They just make the gameplay experience unnecessarily cumbersome. You never actually pickpocket, fish, repair, sell, loot, harvest and ride at the same time.


TLDR

The green slottables should all be passives so that they are all active at the same time.

you forgot about need to wait 30 seconds before slotting passives again in place when you put for gathering corn flower and getting back to fishing, to take cornflower at max would take you to 5 seconds to walk to this and then you have 25 seconds left till you woudl be able o to slot back passives for fishing

Tommy_The_Gun

Almost all non-combat related cp should be an actual "passive" passives. We should not have to slot specific passive when repairing gear, travelling with wayshrine, or fencing items.

It may have looked good during developing process, but in practice, during actual gameplay, it is obnoxious and almost feels like I am being trolled...

GrumpyDuckling

spoqster wrote: »

TLDR

The green slottables should all be passives so that they are all active at the same time.

100% agree.

C'mon ZOS, you must realize how frustrating this is for players.

TrelNord

Does anyone really not believe that ZOS' "fix" for this will be to introduce additional CP slots in the Crown Store this Summer?