Update on Proc Set Plan in Cyrodiil

Mr_Gallows

I like proc sets... for PvE. There they are fun and it doesn't matter that my sets put huge damage on mobs or heals me for no good reason - there are no expectations from them in terms of fairness, being able to counterplay or whatever.

But for PvP it just does not work. It destroys gameplay and ruins any chance of balance. It is also pointless to offer free damage/healing, because even if it is rather low... it is still free and sometimes even random.

No proc cyrodiil is the best the game can be. No proc BG/IC would also be great.

rustudah

Hey ZOS, with the changes to Proc Sets in Update 30, can we expect the Cyrodiil to go back to normal with Update 30?
Meaning, enabling all sets and disabling cross healing outside of groups. Open world PVP is becoming rather stale right now.

If there is one proc set that needs adjustment for pvp, it is vateshran's destruction staff. Make it purgeable or something please. I dont want Cryodiil to become tetherodiil again.

Edit: I guess based on OP they are enabling all sets, ignore my questions.

Jaraal

rustudah wrote: »

disabling cross healing outside of groups

Why would they do that again? They already did that once, determined there was no benefit, and reinstated it.

rustudah

Jaraal wrote: »

rustudah wrote: »

disabling cross healing outside of groups

Why would they do that again? They already did that once, determined there was no benefit, and reinstated it.

I think I must have missed the post where they explicitly said there was 0% benefit from disabling cross healing outside of groups. Care to point me to the article? You do notice that the performance has gotten even worse since they enabled cross healing in Cyro (even without procs)??

ZOS is not going make changes based on a single post, they have the data they need. All I was doing is making suggestions based on the past situation. They made many tests and never really shown us actual results to accurately suggest something worked or not, the problem being they tweak too many things and not enough uniform testing. They should really come up with a controlled testing environment which mimics open world and get enough players to test by rewarding them for participating in it. Because otherwise they are just skewing the player base by forcing them to play something else during the testing.

But then again the group sizes are being reduced with update 30, so we would not have too big ball groups running around spamming radiating regen. I would literally take any performance improvement over balance atm, even if it is 1%.

In all fairness, I do not stress the "cross healing" part as much as enabling all sets because the reason I mentioned was "Open world PVP is becoming rather stale right now". Hope you got your answer by now.

rustudah

BTW, they are addressing some keen balance issues with sets in update 30, so kudos to them.

Jaraal

rustudah wrote: »

I think I must have missed the post where they explicitly said there was 0% benefit from disabling cross healing outside of groups. Care to point me to the article?

"There wasn't, as far as we can tell, much of a discernable performance gain out of that" (group only healing) -- Brian Wheeler, 4:17:35

rustudah

Jaraal wrote: »

rustudah wrote: »

I think I must have missed the post where they explicitly said there was 0% benefit from disabling cross healing outside of groups. Care to point me to the article?

"There wasn't, as far as we can tell, much of a discernable performance gain out of that" (group only healing) -- Brian Wheeler, 4:17:35

Thanks for pointing it to me, But "not much discernable performance gain" means there was indeed a bit of performance gain. But hey, its all up in the air (no real values anywhere). And he also said "we want to let that ride (cross healing) for a little to see if there was something we need to visualize over time". Well, its been couple of months already.

My point still remains.

Beardimus

The Uninvited wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

LightYagami wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

DBHErazor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno please by all that is holy leave proc sets disabled in Cyro.

This is the best PvP the game has had to offer in the last 5+ years.
The fact that you can return to the game after a 2+ year hiatus and not have to worry about getting the latest DLC, grinding dungeons, gathering monster sets and mythics just to participate in PvP is the best thing since sliced bread.

If you don't have to worry about the sets, you can actually balance the classes against each other without having to factor insane procs into the equation as well.

A humble plea from a player who only returned due to no procs and who will happily stick around & pay the monthly sub as long as they remain disabled.

They will make a seperate no-proc campaign in U31.

Where has that been said just trying to keep current?
And in what format - CP / NoCP / Alliance locked or not etc. Feels like division of a not huge population

Low PvP population is because of lack of improvement, not division of population. There are way more diversified PvE zones and contents and the PvE community keeps growing.

In PvP, they should change the current practice instead of keeping the existing ways. Lack of choice isn't a good way to attract people. BG is an example. They don't even allow players to select game mode now. Low division, right? and that doesn't help increasing the player base at all. In fact it simply make people don't want to play BGs.

No-proc PvP is good, what they should do maybe simply expand the allowed sets (for example those adding x% of something), keep those probability based set out, then it will be fine.

Players should focus more on their skills - dodging, blocking, healing, damage combo, situational awareness, etc. instead of simply let their gears do the majority for them.

Currently almost all DLC are PvE focused. They didn't put enough resources in PvP (not even smooth servers of Cyrodiil) and that's the key problem of why PvP player base keeps dropping. If they keep unchanged, players won't come back.

I hear you @LightYagami but also disagree about division...as it is a factor to spread an already low pop in places is my point.

For example noCP on Xbox EU population can be low pop, but can also lead to wicked small scale, when guilds arrive for a push on reset. If you created two noCP one Proc, and one no Proc it would ruin noCP completely.

Main Pop on most camps is Grey Host right, players have voted with their feet on alliance lock being favoured. Blackreach is very low pop and again couldn't handle a split.

I'm not one for Zergs, so grey Host pop split down the middle wouldn't faze me.

To repeat I'm not saying low pop is around division, I'm saying the low pop can't handle further division.

I very much agree no Proc PvP is better. And agree on static stat sets being allowed. For me, enforce that across the board to imperial city and BG and be done with it. But it appears they want to react to noise around those wanting Procs. Personally think bad idea.

I also disagree with you on BG, having a solo / premade queue is more important to player fun than selecting a game mode, and I think it's helped the queue, less division as no choice. Alot selected DM anyway so it's better to have a mix. I would like to see proper team leaderboards etc and private BGs for tournaments as improvements.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Any Offical post links on the plans with Procs ?

It was in the original post about the testing: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7153201#Comment_7153201

Thx so nothing confirmed or recent, I think that's what I'm after.

Ranger209

Beardimus wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

LightYagami wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

DBHErazor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno please by all that is holy leave proc sets disabled in Cyro.

This is the best PvP the game has had to offer in the last 5+ years.
The fact that you can return to the game after a 2+ year hiatus and not have to worry about getting the latest DLC, grinding dungeons, gathering monster sets and mythics just to participate in PvP is the best thing since sliced bread.

If you don't have to worry about the sets, you can actually balance the classes against each other without having to factor insane procs into the equation as well.

A humble plea from a player who only returned due to no procs and who will happily stick around & pay the monthly sub as long as they remain disabled.

They will make a seperate no-proc campaign in U31.

Where has that been said just trying to keep current?
And in what format - CP / NoCP / Alliance locked or not etc. Feels like division of a not huge population

Low PvP population is because of lack of improvement, not division of population. There are way more diversified PvE zones and contents and the PvE community keeps growing.

In PvP, they should change the current practice instead of keeping the existing ways. Lack of choice isn't a good way to attract people. BG is an example. They don't even allow players to select game mode now. Low division, right? and that doesn't help increasing the player base at all. In fact it simply make people don't want to play BGs.

No-proc PvP is good, what they should do maybe simply expand the allowed sets (for example those adding x% of something), keep those probability based set out, then it will be fine.

Players should focus more on their skills - dodging, blocking, healing, damage combo, situational awareness, etc. instead of simply let their gears do the majority for them.

Currently almost all DLC are PvE focused. They didn't put enough resources in PvP (not even smooth servers of Cyrodiil) and that's the key problem of why PvP player base keeps dropping. If they keep unchanged, players won't come back.

I hear you @LightYagami but also disagree about division...as it is a factor to spread an already low pop in places is my point.

For example noCP on Xbox EU population can be low pop, but can also lead to wicked small scale, when guilds arrive for a push on reset. If you created two noCP one Proc, and one no Proc it would ruin noCP completely.

Main Pop on most camps is Grey Host right, players have voted with their feet on alliance lock being favoured. Blackreach is very low pop and again couldn't handle a split.

I'm not one for Zergs, so grey Host pop split down the middle wouldn't faze me.

To repeat I'm not saying low pop is around division, I'm saying the low pop can't handle further division.

I very much agree no Proc PvP is better. And agree on static stat sets being allowed. For me, enforce that across the board to imperial city and BG and be done with it. But it appears they want to react to noise around those wanting Procs. Personally think bad idea.

I also disagree with you on BG, having a solo / premade queue is more important to player fun than selecting a game mode, and I think it's helped the queue, less division as no choice. Alot selected DM anyway so it's better to have a mix. I would like to see proper team leaderboards etc and private BGs for tournaments as improvements.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Any Offical post links on the plans with Procs ?

It was in the original post about the testing: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7153201#Comment_7153201

Thx so nothing confirmed or recent, I think that's what I'm after.

Nothing stated to the contrary so at this point it would seem a go.

Zabagad

rustudah wrote: »

Thanks for pointing it to me, But "not much discernable performance gain" means there was indeed a bit of performance gain. But hey, its all up in the air (no real values anywhere). And he also said "we want to let that ride (cross healing) for a little to see if there was something we need to visualize over time". Well, its been couple of months already.

My point still remains.

There was a small - but not big enough - better performance with the AOE cooldowns.
But there was a big downside with cooldowns and so they stoped to implement AOE cooldowns.

The same is valid for healing only for group members.
There was a bit better performance, but an unfair advantage for grouped players vs ungrouped.
If there would be any solution that balance the problem when 6 grouped meet 6 ungrouped, they should and could implement it. But so it was unhealthy.

Spearpoint

I have not kept myself up to date on all of this, so I find myself needing to ask this: Is it confirmed that proc sets will permanently be disabled in the campaigns?

Greasytengu

Spearpoint wrote: »

I have not kept myself up to date on all of this, so I find myself needing to ask this: Is it confirmed that proc sets will permanently be disabled in the campaigns?

As far as we know, the procs will return with the release of Blackwood. We should be getting a no-proc campaign later in the year.

We haven't gotten any update in a while and the last time they made a major change by deciding to keep the 'temporary' no-proc Cyro, it was told to us the Friday before the update dropped.

spotzhopz

rustudah wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

rustudah wrote: »

disabling cross healing outside of groups

Why would they do that again? They already did that once, determined there was no benefit, and reinstated it.

But then again the group sizes are being reduced with update 30, so we would not have too big ball groups running around spamming radiating regen. I would literally take any performance improvement over balance atm, even if it is 1%.

We already have 12 person group cap in cyrodiil. That went into effect around markarth. The group size change coming up is just making PvE groups limited to 12 people, not doing anything to cyrodiil

Extinct_Solo_Player

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Can the next performance test be that you change everything back to client side for a while? Stuff like, casting Abilities, line of sight , sprinting and so on. It currently feels like having those on server side makes the lag on primetime much much worse due to the server already being under stress and then to calculate all these things, they fail to go off.

Jaraal

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Can the next performance test....

How about no more forced beta testing on our time?

But yes, you and I (and Brian) and everybody else knows this is the main reason why performance went to hell. Until they can figure out a way to run anti-cheat code without having the servers do the brunt of the work, we are stuck with bad performance.

Extinct_Solo_Player

Jaraal wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Can the next performance test....

How about no more forced beta testing on our time?

But yes, you and I (and Brian) and everybody else knows this is the main reason why performance went to hell. Until they can figure out a way to run anti-cheat code without having the servers do the brunt of the work, we are stuck with bad performance.

This test means performance won't be absolutely horrendous, I'm all for it. All the past tests we all knew wouldn't do anything compared to reverting server side checks so i don't see why we can't go straight to the obvious cause.

DBHErazor

With the proc sets returning it's time to cancel my ESO subscription again, it was a glorious 3 months.
Almost like the good old days of 4-6 years ago

Hopefully they'll be removed again with U31.

Jaraal

DBHErazor wrote: »

Almost like the good old days of 4-6 years ago

But there were hundreds of proc sets 4-6 years ago, too. How were you ever able to survive?

Mr_Gallows

If you turn proc sets back on in update 30, PvP is just dead. A game is about fun and pvp has never been as fun as it is now with no procs in cyrodiil... why do you want to ruin that?

Give us no proc options for campaigns, BGs and IC.

Procs are just bad for gameplay. There is absolutely nothing good about them. Nothing

Zabagad

Mr_Gallows wrote: »

If you turn proc sets back on in update 30, PvP is just dead. A game is about fun and pvp has never been as fun as it is now with no procs in cyrodiil... why do you want to ruin that?

Give us no proc options for campaigns, BGs and IC.

Procs are just bad for gameplay. There is absolutely nothing good about them. Nothing

That is only your view and the view of maybe 50% of the player base.
For the other "half" it is the opposite and for them there is less fun now.

So your half got U29->U30 and the other half gets U30->U31 and with U31 (as announced by Gina) the different campaigns will come.
Then we will see which choise will get the bigger population.

Personaly I'm in the middle - My results are better now, but I was bored within the 3 weeks of no-proc-testing already.
In addition the PvP war has changed much in the last 3 month and I guess that a big part of that change is bc of the 19 sets only.
So I hope for a campaign with all sets - except (in short words) the dmg/heal sets.
But this will not happen at least until U32

Gilvoth

Mr_Gallows wrote: »

If you turn proc sets back on in update 30, PvP is just dead. A game is about fun and pvp has never been as fun as it is now with no procs in cyrodiil... why do you want to ruin that?

Give us no proc options for campaigns, BGs and IC.

Procs are just bad for gameplay. There is absolutely nothing good about them. Nothing

that is your view and opinion, there is a very LOUD group that shares that opinion here on the forums, that is why there will be a server for you guys with proc sets disabled for you to enjoy.
but for the rest of us, which is about 50%, we disagree with your opinion, and we will be on the proc set enabled servers having fun and enjoying awesome build variations.

ValarMorghulis1896

Gilvoth wrote: »

and enjoying awesome build variations.

...In expectation of a certain meta, I believe that from June 1st there will be only slightly more different sets than currently in Cyrodiil (*cough* crimson twilight, caluurion... *cough*)
To be serious, the problem is not proc sets in general, but only a few specific ones that are completely op by June 1st.

@Zabagad no, we are only 1%

The Uninvited

ValarMorghulis1896 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

and enjoying awesome build variations.

...In expectation of a certain meta, I believe that from June 1st there will be only slightly more different sets than currently in Cyrodiil (*cough* crimson twilight, caluurion... *cough*)
To be serious, the problem is not proc sets in general, but only a few specific ones that are completely op by June 1st.

@Zabagad no, we are only 1%

Crimson got nerfed by 44%. I don't expect that to return.

CaperGuy

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

First, we want to thank everyone for taking the time to provide so much valuable feedback regarding our decision to leave proc sets disabled in Cyrodiil until Update 31. We understand this is a very polarizing topic and while many of you like this direction, we acknowledge that there are just as many who do not. When we had the last Cyrodiil test activated, we did initially get a lot of positive feedback surrounding the removal of item set procs in Cyrodiil, and from a technical standpoint, it made sense for us to leave proc sets disabled until we were able to complete some additional necessary work for Update 31. We also recognize that disabling proc sets in the long term generated a lot more concern than the three-week test we initially proposed, and that this sudden change in the timeline was quite jarring.

We’ve spent a lot of time discussing our options to improve the experience in the short term. We still plan to leave proc sets disabled in Cyrodiil and will instead reduce the duration of this change until Update 30. With the Update 30 launch, we will then re-enable all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil alongside some additional planned proc set work (we'll provide details in the Update 30 Combat Preview). In Update 31, we still plan to add more flexibility and customizable campaign rulesets as it relates to item sets, and we will be able to fine tune which proc sets we turn on and off.

For those of you on console, you can expect to see item set procs disabled in Cyrodiil this Tuesday, March 16, once Update 29 launches. Any subsequent changes will follow the schedule outlined above.

Again, we greatly appreciate everyone’s feedback on these proposed changes and the related timeline. We want to ensure that you can still play the way you want and have fun in PvP, and we hope that these revised plans strike a better balance for everyone both in the short and long-term.

I'm very curiously watching for what no-cp Cyrodiil in particular will get for ruleset in Update 31. There is only one no-cp campaign to choose from right now and I don't believe that the PTS typically has any no-cp Campaign to test with, so I'm really hoping that they'll tell us long in advance what the update 31 rulesets are going to be.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Just a reminder that we will be re-enabling all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil with the launch of Update 30 next week on PC and on consoles June 8.

Aquatorch

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a reminder that we will be re-enabling all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil with the launch of Update 30 next week on PC and on consoles June 8.

YAY! I'm super happy to be able to use the gear I've spent hundreds of hours farming for in Cyrodiil again! I cannot wait!

Scallan

Aquatorch wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a reminder that we will be re-enabling all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil with the launch of Update 30 next week on PC and on consoles June 8.

YAY! I'm super happy to be able to use the gear I've spent hundreds of hours farming for in Cyrodiil again! I cannot wait!

Well I mean they're still going to be pretty unusable anyways. They did their best to nerf them to oblivion (lol). Even the sets that weren't huge problems are getting huge nerfs.

The push towards the boring homogenization of builds is ongoing, and ZOS is happily leading that charge.

Strider__Roshin

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a reminder that we will be re-enabling all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil with the launch of Update 30 next week on PC and on consoles June 8.

Too bad you guys aren't going to give players a campaign that's proc set free.

Marto

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a reminder that we will be re-enabling all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil with the launch of Update 30 next week on PC and on consoles June 8.

Too bad you guys aren't going to give players a campaign that's proc set free.

Pretty sure that's still planned for Q3

Ringod123

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a reminder that we will be re-enabling all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil with the launch of Update 30 next week on PC and on consoles June 8.

Any reason why all efforts to improve performance have stalled for 3 months so far?