crown gem exclusives are really annoying

Nomadic_Atmoran

Glenmorils wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Glenmorils wrote: »

This model is ridiculous, and the arguments defending it equally so. "This game is ripping people off in the most convoluted and predatory way possible for items that should be available for direct purchase" shouldn't be controversial.

Even people who defend the lootbox model (because "cosmetic items are unnecessary" - as if games in general aren't unnecessary forms of entertainment? What a bizarre argument) should view this as insane. At this point, they are marketing items to a small amount of people who are willing to spend a ton of $$$... but a model that allowed a higher quantity of people to have access to the cosmetic items they want (make a mount cost 10-15 dollars? Even 20 for the really nice ones lol) would get a higher number of people to use the crown store.

1 person spending 300 dollars to get one item vs. 100 people spending 20 dollars on the same item?

Why pander to a few players who can buy access to this kind of item when you could probably make more money offering these items for direct purchase?

And even if you somehow didn't make more money... it's the ethical way to treat people who have already bought your game... and buy the expansions... and pay for subscriptions.

It's tiresome.

Probably because its not just 1 player making the 300 dollar purchase. Just 10 Whales paying at 300 dollars a piece blows your 100 at 20 out of the water by a 1000 dollars. And thats the real reason why these things exist. Because being manipulative in just the right way will always be more profitable than being ethical in the current state of affairs.

You have to scale up the example, then, lol. 1 to 100 doesn't become 10 to 100, it goes to 10 to 1,000.

10 whales buying $300 worth of crates vs. 1,000 players buying a $20 mount they want. That's 3,000 vs. 20,000.

I'm sure the example isn't perfect, and I'm sure there is a reason that they maintain this ridiculous system. But it's definitely possible for them to offer exclusive items for a price in the crown store while being fair to the vast, vast majority of their customers instead of pandering to a few rich ones who want to feel special that they got rare items.

Your example is not only not perfect but it has no basis in reality. Its just some numbers you pulled out of thin air in an attempt to make it seem like ZOS is somehow losing out on profits. Numbers that some nobody online was able to magically figure out without access to their data. Give me a break. I dont like the current approach either but being dishonest and trying to feign some expertise is not going to convince anyone that youre smarter than their Marketing Team.

Eryn_Darkthorn

If they have to do crates, I wish they would make *everything* tradeable for gems. I will never have an Argonaian(To each their own), but I have no choice but to accept the hairstyles etc.. So many items I have no need or desire for in most crates that I rarely ever get them even if there is something I really want.

BackStabeth

Glenmorils wrote: »

This model is ridiculous, and the arguments defending it equally so. [Snip]

Even people who defend the lootbox model (because "cosmetic items are unnecessary" - as if games in general aren't unnecessary forms of entertainment? What a bizarre argument) should view this as insane. At this point, they are marketing items to a small amount of people who are willing to spend a ton of $$$... but a model that allowed a higher quantity of people to have access to the cosmetic items they want (make a mount cost 10-15 dollars? Even 20 for the really nice ones lol) would get a higher number of people to use the crown store.

1 person spending 300 dollars to get one item vs. 100 people spending 20 dollars on the same item?

Why pander to a few players who can buy access to this kind of item when you could probably make more money offering these items for direct purchase?

And even if you somehow didn't make more money... it's the ethical way to treat people who have already bought your game... and buy the expansions... and pay for subscriptions.

It's tiresome.

[Edited for bashing]

If you want to crunch numbers, consider these numbers and maybe you will understand why it's far more profitable for ZoS to sell crates than charge a flat amount per apex rewards.

And if you want to know where I got the numbers to figure this out, just ask me I will say this, it's a well known website that accumulates this information.

I am basing this off the current Goomspore Crates, and off one Apex Item, the Gloomspore Bear

The drop rate is being reported at 1.64%

100 / 1.64 = 60.97 since it's so close we will just round up to 61 to make it easier.

This means you need to purchase 61 crates, on average, to obtain a Gloomspore Bear Apex Reward.

It costs about $40 USD to purchase 5500 crowns, 5500 crowns divided by 40 = 137.5 crowns per dollar

15 crates = 5000 crowns, each crate costs about 333 crowns

333 crowns per crate / 137.5 = about $2.42 USD, each crate costs about $2.42 USD per

$2.42 USD x 61 crates needed on average for the Gloomspore Bear to drop = $147.62

On average, to get the Gloomspore Bear to drop by opening crates it will cost on average about $147.62 USD give or take.

If 1000 people spend 147.62 dollars to get the Gloomspore Bear, that equates to $147, 620 USD

Bump that number to 10,000 people that's $1,476,200 USD

There are about 15 million subscribers to ESO

https://www.pcgamesn.com/the-elder-scrolls-online/player-count

It would not be unreasonable to suggest that of that 15 million people, about 1% are whales

1% of 15 million = 150,000 people

If those 150,000 people all tried to get a Gloomspore bear, and purchase enough crates to do so, that would generate about:

$22,143,000 USD

If just 1% of 1% of those people did so it would still mean over 2 million dollars

Crates are a scam, a huge giant scam. ZoS actually should be deeply ashamed that they would charge so much money for so little value.

And forget about buying them directly... ZoS knows that very few people are going to spend $150 dollars on a vanity mount. But they do know that people will gamble, readily so, because of how the human brain works even to the point of using credit to gamble on the off chance they might get lucky.

ZoS knows they can make a lot more money by tricking people into buying crates, than they ever could selling anything directly. And I think we all know what this type of business practice is called. Nobody would ever buy anything in this way, in the real world, not ever.

It's the separation that ZoS creates between your real world money, and what you are actually purchasing. It's okay when you are spending crowns, but would you spend $2.42 dollars to open each crate? Specially if you had a tally that showed how much you spent already?

Would you spend $147 dollars on a vanity mount?

You can play and pretend ZoS isn't doing what they are, but once you crunch the numbers it's very hard to say they are doing anything that could be considered honest.

The solution to this issue is just simply not to buy any crates. But that's not going to happen because ZoS is playing on the fact that a cert percentage of whales, are also excited by gambling. They know by feeding their gambling addiction they will spend far more than they ever would normally.

And that's how ZoS rakes in the cash!

Taylor_MB

Guys, it's kind of pointless speculating on the data when we have zero clue about what is accurate.

Despite my general lack of faith in ZOS appropriately allocating resources (or maybe because of it?), I'm sure they have spent money on data analysts to determine the costing structure that generates the highest crown store revenue.

In this one case, I can believe ZOS has fully researched and implemented the "best" crown store system with the "ideal" balance of few large value purchases vs many small value purchases.

BackStabeth

Glenmorils wrote: »

This model is ridiculous, and the arguments defending it equally so. [Snip]

Even people who defend the lootbox model (because "cosmetic items are unnecessary" - as if games in general aren't unnecessary forms of entertainment? What a bizarre argument) should view this as insane. At this point, they are marketing items to a small amount of people who are willing to spend a ton of $$$... but a model that allowed a higher quantity of people to have access to the cosmetic items they want (make a mount cost 10-15 dollars? Even 20 for the really nice ones lol) would get a higher number of people to use the crown store.

1 person spending 300 dollars to get one item vs. 100 people spending 20 dollars on the same item?

Why pander to a few players who can buy access to this kind of item when you could probably make more money offering these items for direct purchase?

And even if you somehow didn't make more money... it's the ethical way to treat people who have already bought your game... and buy the expansions... and pay for subscriptions.

It's tiresome.

[Edited for bashing]

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Guys, it's kind of pointless speculating on the data when we have zero clue about what is accurate.

Despite my general lack of faith in ZOS appropriately allocating resources (or maybe because of it?), I'm sure they have spent money on data analysts to determine the costing structure that generates the highest crown store revenue.

In this one case, I can believe ZOS has fully researched and implemented the "best" crown store system with the "ideal" balance of few large value purchases vs many small value purchases.

It's really easy to be honest... All ZoS did was set up a system of gambling, that generates more money than anything else. ESO is about providing just enough content so that people will gamble of crown crates, that's their bread and butter so to speak.

Everything else is just cake...

ZoS is preying on people who have issues with gambling, there isn't anything good or noble or kind of forthright about it. They are just doing what all the other gaming companies are doing and they will continue until it's made illegal.

So estimates are that by 2022, the gaming industry will be generating as much as 50 billion USD on loot boxes/crates.

And what's far worse, the money generated by pandering to gambling issues people have, is not going into the game to fix it, it's going into the game to create more content for people to spend even more money. And this while all the major issues that have existed for 6 years continue to persist. All the money that ZoS is generating is not going to buying the hardware, server resources required to stabilize the game.

I get the feeling that the managers at ZoS really don't care about us the customers, only that they can reach into our pockets deep and take from us our entertainment dollars with as little investment as possible.

volkeswagon

yes that wicker horse is beautiful but i will not be spending the hundreds of dollars in crates to get the gems. I find the whole crown gem exclusive system to be unethical and promotes gambling. At least make them available with crowns as well or make gems purchasable or even as in game rewards

Glenmorils

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Glenmorils wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Glenmorils wrote: »

This model is ridiculous, and the arguments defending it equally so. "This game is ripping people off in the most convoluted and predatory way possible for items that should be available for direct purchase" shouldn't be controversial.

Even people who defend the lootbox model (because "cosmetic items are unnecessary" - as if games in general aren't unnecessary forms of entertainment? What a bizarre argument) should view this as insane. At this point, they are marketing items to a small amount of people who are willing to spend a ton of $$$... but a model that allowed a higher quantity of people to have access to the cosmetic items they want (make a mount cost 10-15 dollars? Even 20 for the really nice ones lol) would get a higher number of people to use the crown store.

1 person spending 300 dollars to get one item vs. 100 people spending 20 dollars on the same item?

Why pander to a few players who can buy access to this kind of item when you could probably make more money offering these items for direct purchase?

And even if you somehow didn't make more money... it's the ethical way to treat people who have already bought your game... and buy the expansions... and pay for subscriptions.

It's tiresome.

Probably because its not just 1 player making the 300 dollar purchase. Just 10 Whales paying at 300 dollars a piece blows your 100 at 20 out of the water by a 1000 dollars. And thats the real reason why these things exist. Because being manipulative in just the right way will always be more profitable than being ethical in the current state of affairs.

You have to scale up the example, then, lol. 1 to 100 doesn't become 10 to 100, it goes to 10 to 1,000.

10 whales buying $300 worth of crates vs. 1,000 players buying a $20 mount they want. That's 3,000 vs. 20,000.

I'm sure the example isn't perfect, and I'm sure there is a reason that they maintain this ridiculous system. But it's definitely possible for them to offer exclusive items for a price in the crown store while being fair to the vast, vast majority of their customers instead of pandering to a few rich ones who want to feel special that they got rare items.

Your example is not only not perfect but it has no basis in reality. Its just some numbers you pulled out of thin air in an attempt to make it seem like ZOS is somehow losing out on profits. Numbers that some nobody online was able to magically figure out without access to their data. Give me a break. I dont like the current approach either but being dishonest and trying to feign some expertise is not going to convince anyone that youre smarter than their Marketing Team.

No one was feigning expertise I made up a fake example that was out of nowhere because my thinking was that it would still be profitable for them to change the model or to do things more fairly given the number of players they have.

Like I said, it is possible to be fair and make a profit with the crown store. The example is OBVIOUSLY not real or based on anything other than the argument I was trying to make. Don't get mad lol I'm not being "dishonest" I clearly made those numbers up. Multiple people have already pointed out that it was a flawed example. It was done as an imaginary exercise alongside my actual argument. Don't get so hung up on clearly fake numbers. It was an idea, not based on data. Lol.

Mettaricana

Another swing and a miss by zo$ stupid to sell off crown season items if it costs gems it needs to stay in the crown crates as an option its not even flashy or special like the crown crate mounts yet likely costs the same...

Kiralyn2000

BackStabeth wrote: »

Would you spend $147 dollars on a vanity mount?

No. But I won't spend $20-30 on one, either. So I'm clearly in the 80% "wouldn't buy it anyway" category.


My experience with lootboxes across all games is - when they give them for free, I'll gladly open them. And the crap I get out of them just reinforces my desire to never spend $ on them.
In games where you can open lockboxes via some in-game currency? (SWtoR - buy them off the auction house for gold; STO - buy keys off the auction house for gold OR exchange limited-farm currency for Crowns & buy keys directly; etc) I'll happily open some once in awhile, as long as there's something interesting in them.

The key thing is that I never open lockboxes for the Big Prize - I open them for the mid-level prizes. There's a pretty good chance of getting those, and if I do end up with a "big" prize? Bonus! If I don't end up with one? No loss, I wasn't aiming for that in the first place. (And that's a good thing - over the years I've opened enough Star Trek crates to get thousands of the local 'crown gem' equivalent. And I've only gotten one 'apex' ship to drop.)



(My Crown spending history in this game? Started in spring '16. Got some Crowns from 2-3 months of ESO+. Bought a 3k pack on Black Friday in '17. Between '16 and now, I've gotten one 700crown mount - basic black horse; unlocked a bunch of zone DLC during their holiday sales; and bought a few 500-700cr costumes. Still have like 1.5k crowns left. So, yeah - Big Spender is not one of the titles I've collected. )

MrGhosty

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Indeed. I've always really liked the Clouded Senche mount and was excited to see the requisite Storm Atronach crates return.

I assumed that even if my RNG was awful that I would still be able to get it for 100 gems relatively easily. So for the first time ever, I used my subscription Crowns to get some crates to see what the Crate:gem ratio was.

I thought that it might be like 1:10 or thereabouts but oh how wrong I was. I got 3 gems average out of my crates, which means that I would need 34 crates to get my Senche. Suffice to say, that's the last time I'm ever doing that.

And it's just sad irony because if it were available as a special mount from available for Crowns, I'd definitely spring for it at basically whatever price.

It's take a bit of work, but by tuning into twitch whenever there are drops weekend and scrapping everything you get from them, you can usually reach at least a 100 gems by buying 4 crates when they drop. It isn't an ideal way, but until loot crates are outright banned I doubt we'll see much improvement to crown offerings. I still like to get new stuff so farming out the twitch drop crates does a fair bit of filler and I use eso+ subs to get the four crates.

As for OP, I think this could be improved relatively easily by ZOS. The first thing they could do is make the items we get from login rewards able to be broken down like their crate counterparts. Going rate of 1-2 per item means at most you can get 60 gems a month which is hardly bank breaking but gives players a nice incentive. Alternatively, instead of those silly statuettes that add "value" to the eso plus sub, they could replace that with a crate or a gem allotment.

The system that I would prefer however, is for them to just attach a crown value to everything in the crate (most items were already sold in the store so it's not like they weren't priced already) The apex mounts will be really expensive though judging by the cost of their more exotic mounts currently for sale.

Nemesis7884

newtinmpls wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

It's not designed to make people forget they are spending real money. The Gems are your guarantee that if you have bad RNG you can still obtain the item(s) you want.

IMHO

You are an adorable optimist.

I'm a cynic who pretty much just doesn't every buy crates.

I suspect we will both be okay

ive never ever seen the optimists be right in the end in gaming during the past 10 years ^^

usually the same people with their standard slogan "its only beta, things will change"

L2Pissue

Don't buy, live as they don't exist, problem solved.

find yourself inadequate when it's about self control, there are better games.

MEBengalsFan2001

All non apex mounts should cost 100 crown gems or simply put the mount in the crown store for 2500 crowns.

santhoranb16_ESO

BackStabeth wrote: »

And what's far worse, the money generated by pandering to gambling issues people have, is not going into the game to fix it, it's going into the game to create more content for people to spend even more money. And this while all the major issues that have existed for 6 years continue to persist. All the money that ZoS is generating is not going to buying the hardware, server resources required to stabilize the game.

That point, is sadly what most forget when defending those systems. Sure Publisher SHOULD make money and no one denys that more profit is normally better. But you have to overthink to which point it leads.
Pretend, there doesnt exists a cosmetic crown store. All cosmetics come from ingame achievements. Now what would be the most likely outcome?
The company would try to hold their playerbase, and the playerbase would measure the game based on quality and quantity of content. Aka the goal would shift from designing cosmetics / store content into game content/ game enhancement.

Sadly this is a case which is nowadays very rarely as it is, as multiple times said, the far less lucrative moneytizing system. But just for the game and players it would be always the better system, so one should ever keep that in mind defending ingame shops.

(And yes, for the "realistic view": If you have to choose if the game' is gonna shutdown or a store is integrated, then the far less evil is the store, so dont be strict up against stores, just keep in memory that there still would be better solutions for the customers and its not to praise.)

Isarii

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

The key thing is that I never open lockboxes for the Big Prize - I open them for the mid-level prizes. There's a pretty good chance of getting those, and if I do end up with a "big" prize? Bonus! If I don't end up with one? No loss, I wasn't aiming for that in the first place.

I have to admit one of the saving grace's of ESO's horrible crown crate system is that the Apex drops are all consistent terrible, immersion-breaking monstrosities that I don't have much interest in owning. It's the 40-100 gem items that I usually actually want, and those are a lot more obtainable, lol.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

As this thread has begun to derail, we've decided to close it down. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful with the Forum Rules in mind.

Thank you for understanding.