MagBlade Theorycrafting Changes Thread

jimijac0me

Hmm I’ve also been interested in how lotus was a nerf lol, not sure anyone used it for the dot and seems like lotus- tether will be stronger. Shade range nerf sucks though, I still find myself outside range often enough as it is

Iskiab

jimijac0me wrote: »

Hmm I’ve also been interested in how lotus was a nerf lol, not sure anyone used it for the dot and seems like lotus- tether will be stronger. Shade range nerf sucks though, I still find myself outside range often enough as it is

I think it’s somewhat a nerf just because other classes got minor vulnerability this patch. If you’re solo it won’t make a difference or be better, if you run in groups the patch will mean there are better sources.

Browsing through the notes I think Onslaught bombing will be better, but in group play magblades will be relatively weaker. Right now magblades are in a good spot in group play... if you spec for it... but post patch I think they’ll be weaker.

fred4

IMO shade range nerf was uncalled for and merely reflects the bean counter approach ZOS have recently adopted.

While shade is a cool skill, I never liked it, because the range already felt limited and because it is a toggle. Toggles are usability nightmares as soon as there is any hint of lag. Press the shade key once and nothing may happen. Press it twice and the lag is suddenly gone and you've already ported back to it and wasted it.

GhostofDatthaw

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My stats are 35k mag, 30k hp, 12.5k stam with necro, continuous attack, pot buff, and tk I'm at 2.7k mag, 2.3k hp, 1.2k Stam

fred4

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My exact build is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6312003/#Comment_6312003

HowlKimchi

fred4 wrote: »

IMO shade range nerf was uncalled for and merely reflects the bean counter approach ZOS have recently adopted.

While shade is a cool skill, I never liked it, because the range already felt limited and because it is a toggle. Toggles are usability nightmares as soon as there is any hint of lag. Press the shade key once and nothing may happen. Press it twice and the lag is suddenly gone and you've already ported back to it and wasted it.

Shade is my favorite magblade skill! Pretty bummed it's getting nerfed but I don't think it'll break the skill.

Iskiab

fred4 wrote: »

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My exact build is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6312003/#Comment_6312003

Have you tried running DW on your front bar? You’ll miss ranged light attacks but see a good bump to your front bar damage skills. MH nirn, OH sharpened.

Looking again, why inner light on your back bar?

HowlKimchi

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=170445

^ This is my build in an easy to consume format. This build started to take shape some 2 years ago, and this is the current iteration.

Offensive pressure is simple: LA-weave. Just semi-charge light attacksy for about 500ms (or half a second) so that every light attack you land, the shock enchant procs. I find that it's the best dps instead of straight up LA weaving and only getting shock enchant procs every 2 seconds. Lighter on the sustain side this way too.

Kill combo happens when you have the spectral bow. So always light attack weave even on the resto bar. The full combo starts with a light attack weave RAT into weapon swap, enabling minor force and the torug's infused spell damage buff glyph on the resto staff. Then it's soul harvest => hysteria => spectral bow (all with uncharged light attack weaves that should equate to two shock enchant procs). Then after that it's LA-weave of swallow soul to execute the target. If they dont die, just do it again since the bow should be up soon.

Defense is tricky-er because positioning is very important, and defensive rotations change depending if stam is low or mag is low. But first, always have the shade up (it's the only dot that helps with maintaining magickasteal of ele drain). Doesn't have to be behind a tree or w/e (but that's ideal), it just has to be a bit away. Then the main goal is to make yspace. Never use cloak first. You'll only be revealed instantly. You want to either RAT or roll away, and then cloak. LOS also matters a lot.

In summary: it's very mobile and bursty, good recoveries, and it has decent sustained pressure with the 6k shock enchant with torug's and infused making it available every 1.5 seconds. Use RAT, dodge roll, shade to make space, then use cloak to exponentially grow the space you make.

Videos just for fun: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493654/magblade-pvp-videos-for-fun

jimijac0me

I have a few builds I’ve put together, rather late here atm but can post when I’m back on my PC for input - bearing in mind my skill bars are where I’m comfortable and I’m usually around 300+ ping lol I’ve been neglecting shade and shadow cloak (I’ve been using dark cloak instead) for a couple of patches because aussie ping has been over 350 for me and the whole game has been a mess but I’ve seen some improvements there so going to try going back to shadow cloak and shade like the old days over the weekend. Shade used to be such a good skill however I’m weary relying on it for next patch because I can only see more templars and stamsorcs coming next patch lol.I’ve always been drawn to nb for speed and siphoning so going to try going back to my roots thanks to you guys - regen is such an underated stat in PvP sometimes and you guys have reminded me of the joy of NB combat pace and control.

Recently I’ve neglected that due to game performance- it’s not very forgiving when abilities do not go off but I’m hoping with our recent ping drops, plus adding swift/steed I might be able to find that fun again.

Recent patches I’ve found damage to have dropped so much that adding anything defensive based leaves me wanting against good players with 100-200 less ping. Swift/steed is something I’ve neglected to try though, I’ve been building more towards resists etc and recently I’ve found running around with same damage but less defenses, I’ve still died as much but gotten far more kills.

I’m going to try regen and speed as my defense and see how it goes for a bit so thank you for opening up some forgetten options ❤️

jimijac0me

I’ll also add, the cast times added to soul harvest and soul tether really hurt us on 250+ ping, so I can see that I need to swing more towards attrition than burst which sucks

GhostofDatthaw

Whoops just realized the hp I was looking at with 30k was with emp bonus, didn't realize dc actually did something.

HowlKimchi

jimijac0me wrote: »

I’ll also add, the cast times added to soul harvest and soul tether really hurt us on 250+ ping, so I can see that I need to swing more towards attrition than burst which sucks

I know how you feel. I play on average of 250 to 300 ping as im located in SEA. What a dream it'd be to play with 200 ping or less!

ScruffyWhiskers

jimijac0me wrote: »

I’ll also add, the cast times added to soul harvest and soul tether really hurt us on 250+ ping, so I can see that I need to swing more towards attrition than burst which sucks

I'm seeing way more soul harvests not fire off than before. This change has run into the cold wall of That's How We Are Doing It Now so I wasn't even going to bother complaining. It is so disruptive to the flow of my gameplay that I'm thinking about writing a strongly worded letter I guess.

As far as lotus being a nerf, my point was that like cripple, it got some nice damage increases over the last few patches and was actually a very nice tool whereas before it was useless except for being a gap closer especially in comparison to ambush when it had a real empower.But then they went and changed entropy and soul harvest and the DOT madness happened and now everything gets crushed.

If you are going to run a melee magnb and you aren't using swift and steed then you really do need a gap closer in my opinion. There are so many opponents who will leave melee range on you without it.

ScruffyWhiskers

zammo wrote: »

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

The cripple and lotus nerfs are silly though.

Look at it another way, all single target DoTs got the same treatment, every class got hurt by that, so across the board we're about equal in that regard. Lotus Fan however now puts minor vulnerability on every target hit, not just the initial target anymore. I have no problem saying that's a decent buff!

Yeah, its a buff for group play. My point was that it had acquired a decent damage component on the DOT (cripple was really effective as well) and then they went and ruined everything by going way over the top with access to mega DOTs via entropy and soul trap and the nerf hammer got swung and hit everything.

In this age of 25k+hp, huge resistances and mitigation and a declining pool of players who are new or underpowered for CP pvp, my prospects look bleaker by the day. Not everybody is afk either.

jimijac0me

Haha yeah, steed/swift is pretty much my replacement for lotus, although in group play I think I’ll stick with lotus and my harmony spinners jewels, aoe vuln looks nice for that!

fred4

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My exact build is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6312003/#Comment_6312003

Have you tried running DW on your front bar? You’ll miss ranged light attacks but see a good bump to your front bar damage skills. MH nirn, OH sharpened.

Looking again, why inner light on your back bar?

A good bump in front bar damage? Hahahahaha. You are SO wrong:

(1) Destro gives +8% single target damage. I believe that includes the procs.
(2) Destro does elemental-based light attacks that scale with magicka and spell damage, spell crit and spell pen.
(3) Full Sharpened beats Nirn, more so, since my build is about the procs not my skill damage.

So unless you're telling me there is something about how "wrong-(stamina)-weapon" light attacks now scale, that I've missed, destro light attacks and destro staff synergy with the procs far outweighs any possible skill damage gains from DW in my build.

Inner Light is my flex-spot. I like it, because the slight magicka gain improves my shields and the crit improves my heals, e.g. Swallow Soul and Healing Ward. No room for it on the front bar and also the procs don't crit anyway. Between Inner Light and Willpower I have almost 4K more magicka on the back bar. However other skills in that spot include Retreating Maneuvers, Siege Shield and Deep Thoughts in no CP.

I like Swallow Soul for IC, but for Cyro you could arguably run Cripple + Entropy or Soul Trap on the back bar this patch. What I don't like about Entropy is that blue health projectile every 2 seconds, as it can give away your cloaked position. Again it comes down the procs being the "star-feature" of the build. I don't particularly care for Major Sorcery. Indeed, I have always found Immovability potions far more effective when the other choice was a Sorcery or Brutality potion, so I don't get it from potions either.

ScruffyWhiskers

fred4 wrote: »

[

(1) Destro gives +8% single target damage. I believe that includes the procs.

Yep, for several years I ran around with dual swords because I loved the look. I started out dual daggers before they did the whole magicka/stamina split. But I picked up a stick just like they wanted I guess. I hate the way it looks and it makes it hard to tell whether I'm on my front bar or back bar sometimes when lag gets in the way. But you are gimping yourself if you don't join the order of the stick. Just getting one good light attack in can be the difference in finishing somebody off.

Maybe this summer the expansion will have a one hand and tome or orb weapon line that focuses on melee magicka? One can only hope.

HowlKimchi

The only time DW was better than Destro staves in one way was when destro staves only counted as 1 armor piece.

When they made destro count as two, it became better than DW in every single aspect.

Iskiab

fred4 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My exact build is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6312003/#Comment_6312003

Have you tried running DW on your front bar? You’ll miss ranged light attacks but see a good bump to your front bar damage skills. MH nirn, OH sharpened.

Looking again, why inner light on your back bar?

A good bump in front bar damage? Hahahahaha. You are SO wrong:

(1) Destro gives +8% single target damage. I believe that includes the procs.
(2) Destro does elemental-based light attacks that scale with magicka and spell damage, spell crit and spell pen.
(3) Full Sharpened beats Nirn, more so, since my build is about the procs not my skill damage.

So unless you're telling me there is something about how "wrong-(stamina)-weapon" light attacks now scale, that I've missed, destro light attacks and destro staff synergy with the procs far outweighs any possible skill damage gains from DW in my build.

Inner Light is my flex-spot. I like it, because the slight magicka gain improves my shields and the crit improves my heals, e.g. Swallow Soul and Healing Ward. No room for it on the front bar and also the procs don't crit anyway. Between Inner Light and Willpower I have almost 4K more magicka on the back bar. However other skills in that spot include Retreating Maneuvers, Siege Shield and Deep Thoughts in no CP.

I like Swallow Soul for IC, but for Cyro you could arguably run Cripple + Entropy or Soul Trap on the back bar this patch. What I don't like about Entropy is that blue health projectile every 2 seconds, as it can give away your cloaked position. Again it comes down the procs being the "star-feature" of the build. I don't particularly care for Major Sorcery. Indeed, I have always found Immovability potions far more effective when the other choice was a Sorcery or Brutality potion, so I don't get it from potions either.

Switching from a flame staff to DW swords is about a 10% tooltip increase....

fred4

If you judged my build only by it's tooltips, I can see why you would recoil in horror .

ScruffyWhiskers

It's also a lot easier to generate ultimate on randoms riding by with a cripple and light attack from a flame staff when you have no real intention of engaging. I would still switch in a heart beat to dual swords if they made light attacks scale from magicka.

HowlKimchi

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My exact build is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6312003/#Comment_6312003

Have you tried running DW on your front bar? You’ll miss ranged light attacks but see a good bump to your front bar damage skills. MH nirn, OH sharpened.

Looking again, why inner light on your back bar?

A good bump in front bar damage? Hahahahaha. You are SO wrong:

(1) Destro gives +8% single target damage. I believe that includes the procs.
(2) Destro does elemental-based light attacks that scale with magicka and spell damage, spell crit and spell pen.
(3) Full Sharpened beats Nirn, more so, since my build is about the procs not my skill damage.

So unless you're telling me there is something about how "wrong-(stamina)-weapon" light attacks now scale, that I've missed, destro light attacks and destro staff synergy with the procs far outweighs any possible skill damage gains from DW in my build.

Inner Light is my flex-spot. I like it, because the slight magicka gain improves my shields and the crit improves my heals, e.g. Swallow Soul and Healing Ward. No room for it on the front bar and also the procs don't crit anyway. Between Inner Light and Willpower I have almost 4K more magicka on the back bar. However other skills in that spot include Retreating Maneuvers, Siege Shield and Deep Thoughts in no CP.

I like Swallow Soul for IC, but for Cyro you could arguably run Cripple + Entropy or Soul Trap on the back bar this patch. What I don't like about Entropy is that blue health projectile every 2 seconds, as it can give away your cloaked position. Again it comes down the procs being the "star-feature" of the build. I don't particularly care for Major Sorcery. Indeed, I have always found Immovability potions far more effective when the other choice was a Sorcery or Brutality potion, so I don't get it from potions either.

Switching from a flame staff to DW swords is about a 10% tooltip increase....

Yep tooltip wise, DW will show the higher numbers. But tooltips are not everything. It doesn't reflect penetration.

And the fact that you can deal significant light attack weaved damage beats out any tooltip increase DW may have.

You also get to have ele drain. The most OP mag skill in the game imo.

Iskiab

fred4 wrote: »

If you judged my build only by it's tooltips, I can see why you would recoil in horror .

No, I don’t mean the tooltips are low. I watched your video and you’re in melee usually anyways for Cal procs. DW would add some more burst and you wouldn’t lose much because you have lotus.

DW can be annoying but it is more burst, that’s why a lot of bombers use DW. You gain 10% tooltip or so and lose 1500 pen. You also lose light attacks but if you’re ambushing there aren’t many LAs anyways.

Iskiab

HaruKamui wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My exact build is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6312003/#Comment_6312003

Have you tried running DW on your front bar? You’ll miss ranged light attacks but see a good bump to your front bar damage skills. MH nirn, OH sharpened.

Looking again, why inner light on your back bar?

A good bump in front bar damage? Hahahahaha. You are SO wrong:

(1) Destro gives +8% single target damage. I believe that includes the procs.
(2) Destro does elemental-based light attacks that scale with magicka and spell damage, spell crit and spell pen.
(3) Full Sharpened beats Nirn, more so, since my build is about the procs not my skill damage.

So unless you're telling me there is something about how "wrong-(stamina)-weapon" light attacks now scale, that I've missed, destro light attacks and destro staff synergy with the procs far outweighs any possible skill damage gains from DW in my build.

Inner Light is my flex-spot. I like it, because the slight magicka gain improves my shields and the crit improves my heals, e.g. Swallow Soul and Healing Ward. No room for it on the front bar and also the procs don't crit anyway. Between Inner Light and Willpower I have almost 4K more magicka on the back bar. However other skills in that spot include Retreating Maneuvers, Siege Shield and Deep Thoughts in no CP.

I like Swallow Soul for IC, but for Cyro you could arguably run Cripple + Entropy or Soul Trap on the back bar this patch. What I don't like about Entropy is that blue health projectile every 2 seconds, as it can give away your cloaked position. Again it comes down the procs being the "star-feature" of the build. I don't particularly care for Major Sorcery. Indeed, I have always found Immovability potions far more effective when the other choice was a Sorcery or Brutality potion, so I don't get it from potions either.

Switching from a flame staff to DW swords is about a 10% tooltip increase....

Yep tooltip wise, DW will show the higher numbers. But tooltips are not everything. It doesn't reflect penetration.

And the fact that you can deal significant light attack weaved damage beats out any tooltip increase DW may have.

You also get to have ele drain. The most OP mag skill in the game imo.

Reaper’s mark is better than ele drain in almost every way.

By the way, you guys realize that the pen passives from destro staffs only work on destro staff abilities right?

HowlKimchi

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

If you judged my build only by it's tooltips, I can see why you would recoil in horror .

No, I don’t mean the tooltips are low. I watched your video and you’re in melee usually anyways for Cal procs. DW would add some more burst and you wouldn’t lose much because you have lotus.

DW can be annoying but it is more burst, that’s why a lot of bombers use DW. You gain 10% tooltip or so and lose 1500 pen. You also lose light attacks but if you’re ambushing there aren’t many LAs anyways.

Bombers get away with it because they deal damage to a lot of targets and the LA becomes less significant. on Fred's build, a light attack weaved opener would still deal more burst damage than a DW rotation with a potato light attack.

HowlKimchi

Iskiab wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My exact build is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6312003/#Comment_6312003

Have you tried running DW on your front bar? You’ll miss ranged light attacks but see a good bump to your front bar damage skills. MH nirn, OH sharpened.

Looking again, why inner light on your back bar?

A good bump in front bar damage? Hahahahaha. You are SO wrong:

(1) Destro gives +8% single target damage. I believe that includes the procs.
(2) Destro does elemental-based light attacks that scale with magicka and spell damage, spell crit and spell pen.
(3) Full Sharpened beats Nirn, more so, since my build is about the procs not my skill damage.

So unless you're telling me there is something about how "wrong-(stamina)-weapon" light attacks now scale, that I've missed, destro light attacks and destro staff synergy with the procs far outweighs any possible skill damage gains from DW in my build.

Inner Light is my flex-spot. I like it, because the slight magicka gain improves my shields and the crit improves my heals, e.g. Swallow Soul and Healing Ward. No room for it on the front bar and also the procs don't crit anyway. Between Inner Light and Willpower I have almost 4K more magicka on the back bar. However other skills in that spot include Retreating Maneuvers, Siege Shield and Deep Thoughts in no CP.

I like Swallow Soul for IC, but for Cyro you could arguably run Cripple + Entropy or Soul Trap on the back bar this patch. What I don't like about Entropy is that blue health projectile every 2 seconds, as it can give away your cloaked position. Again it comes down the procs being the "star-feature" of the build. I don't particularly care for Major Sorcery. Indeed, I have always found Immovability potions far more effective when the other choice was a Sorcery or Brutality potion, so I don't get it from potions either.

Switching from a flame staff to DW swords is about a 10% tooltip increase....

Yep tooltip wise, DW will show the higher numbers. But tooltips are not everything. It doesn't reflect penetration.

And the fact that you can deal significant light attack weaved damage beats out any tooltip increase DW may have.

You also get to have ele drain. The most OP mag skill in the game imo.

Reaper’s mark is better than ele drain in almost every way.

By the way, you guys realize that the pen passives from destro staffs only work on destro staff abilities right?

Yep I realize that, I was just saying that tooltips aren't a good metric as a general statement because penetration isn't reflected. Not specifically on the destro staff vs DW topic. I can see why my statement was confusing!


I don't think i'd slot reapers mark ever in PVP. Minor magickasteal is too good.

Iskiab

HaruKamui wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

jimijac0me wrote: »

Out of curiousity what health are you guys running on these builds?

My exact build is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6312003/#Comment_6312003

Have you tried running DW on your front bar? You’ll miss ranged light attacks but see a good bump to your front bar damage skills. MH nirn, OH sharpened.

Looking again, why inner light on your back bar?

A good bump in front bar damage? Hahahahaha. You are SO wrong:

(1) Destro gives +8% single target damage. I believe that includes the procs.
(2) Destro does elemental-based light attacks that scale with magicka and spell damage, spell crit and spell pen.
(3) Full Sharpened beats Nirn, more so, since my build is about the procs not my skill damage.

So unless you're telling me there is something about how "wrong-(stamina)-weapon" light attacks now scale, that I've missed, destro light attacks and destro staff synergy with the procs far outweighs any possible skill damage gains from DW in my build.

Inner Light is my flex-spot. I like it, because the slight magicka gain improves my shields and the crit improves my heals, e.g. Swallow Soul and Healing Ward. No room for it on the front bar and also the procs don't crit anyway. Between Inner Light and Willpower I have almost 4K more magicka on the back bar. However other skills in that spot include Retreating Maneuvers, Siege Shield and Deep Thoughts in no CP.

I like Swallow Soul for IC, but for Cyro you could arguably run Cripple + Entropy or Soul Trap on the back bar this patch. What I don't like about Entropy is that blue health projectile every 2 seconds, as it can give away your cloaked position. Again it comes down the procs being the "star-feature" of the build. I don't particularly care for Major Sorcery. Indeed, I have always found Immovability potions far more effective when the other choice was a Sorcery or Brutality potion, so I don't get it from potions either.

Switching from a flame staff to DW swords is about a 10% tooltip increase....

Yep tooltip wise, DW will show the higher numbers. But tooltips are not everything. It doesn't reflect penetration.

And the fact that you can deal significant light attack weaved damage beats out any tooltip increase DW may have.

You also get to have ele drain. The most OP mag skill in the game imo.

Reaper’s mark is better than ele drain in almost every way.

By the way, you guys realize that the pen passives from destro staffs only work on destro staff abilities right?

Yep I realize that, I was just saying that tooltips aren't a good metric as a general statement because penetration isn't reflected. Not specifically on the destro staff vs DW topic. I can see why my statement was confusing!


I don't think i'd slot reapers mark ever in PVP. Minor magickasteal is too good.

Okay, I was confused on why you said destro staves have better pen. They're exactly the same as DW. MH Nirh, OH Sharpened is best but you could go sharpened for both traits and still see a sizable tooltip increase.

DW because of passives have higher base weapon damage by about ~200. The difference between DW and destro staves is stamina based light attacks and weapon damage vs ranged magicka based light attacks and status effects.

Destro staves are better for 90% of magblade builds, but not all.

Metemsycosis

Im running
2 engine guardian
5 heavy impreg
5 lich fb destro
Brp resto

Refreshing path, fear, merciless resolve, swallow soul, impale, meteor.

Mist, cloak, cripple, rapid regen, ward, panacea

Iskiab

I’m thinking of posting my spec too... maybe a couple weeks. It’s far out there and a lot different than most, but it’s getting nerfed so there’s no point in hiding what I’m doing.

I’m pretty sure I’m the only DW healer in ESO.

Metemsycosis

Dw healing is awesome on magnb. I use that with innate axiom heavy for big path and offering and tether numbers.

Similar to 2h but looks cooler imo