[TWS] Balancing in AvA – „Changes with large effect“

Taonnor

First I will apologize for my broken English. I’m not a native English people. If you do not understand some sentence, try to look into the German thread and translate it or ask me directly!

Here is the German counterpart. -> Balancing im AvA – „Anpassungen mit großer Wirkung“
Back to the Main Thread -> [TWS] What should i change in ESO – „The sweeping statement“

The eternal controversial topic "Balancing". I too have many change requests. But I would do more at the meta-level. In the many years I play, same patterns have been repeated, which somehow I personally find ... meaningless. That's why my suggestions for change. They may be provocative, I hope. I want to revisit everything.

Away with the Battle-Spirit Buff/Debuff

I would completely remove the Battle Spirit Buff / Debuff. But WHY does everyone ask themselves now? There is the short answer "TTK" (Time to Kill). If you want to know more, read the thread Myth AoE Cap. Now the longer answer.

What provides the Battle-Spirit Buff/Debuff?

• + 5000 HP
• - 50% DMG
• - 50% Heal
• - 50% Shields

Let's just say the Battle Spirit Buff is gone. Only very briefly we continue to spin the thought. What would happen? First and foremost, it occurs to me directly that the 5000 HP are missing. A Full DD build in Cyrodiil would only run with 18k life, maybe even less. In addition, you do 50% more damage and, of course, get yourself 50% more damage. So if you run as Full DD with only 18k life you are one-hit. The player is forced to make a painful tradeoff. He needs more live and defense and that reduces his damage. It is still possible to go on damage build, but for a very high risk.

Finally "Build Diversity" is back through really painful "Tradeoffs". Am I going to Full DD, I'm one-hit or rather more defensive? I prophesy that many starts crying out, but then slowly but surely the slightly balanced builds would prevail with much more defensive. Anyone who still wants to play Full DD can do that and will certainly succeed in some way.

The next. With 4.2.2 are capped shields introduced. That means in my eyes you do not need the 50% shield debuff anymore.

What is left? The -50% Heal. For this I would have a second balancing change.

Away with the „Free for All“ Heals

That has always annoyed me. Healing circles everywhere. And the springs heal even blunt everything that goes in. The ultimate Zerg surfer skill. But that's not the only AoE Heal out there. All AoE Heals can heal all friendly targets nearby. My suggestion to this:

Healing springs and all other AoE Heals (Sets included) should heal only group members (Maybe only Cyrodiil or generally). Without any exceptions!

What does this mean? As first, if you playing solo you can only heal yourself or you go into a group. Limiting AoE Heals to the group has several advantages. Right at the front Performance. It massively reduces the targets to be searched for the AoE Heal and the Line of Sight calculations. See details here -> Mythos AoE Cap.

Second, it reduces the "Zerg Surfing" because the Zerg no longer suffocates in Overheal. And that would also be the time when I would remove the -50% Healdebuff from the Battle Spirit.

Third, it reduces the TTK in large Zerg Clashse in Keep fights in Inner Keeps. No more overheal on the flag!

And fourth, it promotes group play! Solo players will not be affected. Rather the Zerg surfers which are causing lags.

Away with the Zombie-Zergs

Everyone has heard this term before. After all, it's a pretty stupid tactic. If a middle group tries to take a Keep, then all the players will be rezzed when the group is not nearby. This is done until the group either gives up annoyed or reinforcement is there. Just die and rezz. The whole time. You do not have to fight. Just die and rezz is enough.

I want to get rid of these Zombie-Zergs. I just want to get rid of them. I do not care. My idea would be the following.

Rezz-Sickness if you rezz a friendly player (2 Minutes)

The Rezz-Sickness lasts 2 minutes. Even beyond death. If you revive at a keep / camp or at the entrance, the Rezz-Sickness will be gone. The Rezz-Sickness proves the player with the following debuffs:

• 20% Snare
• 20% DMG/Heal-Debuff
• Rezzing of this player is not possible, till the Rezz-Sickness is gone (like cooldown of Camps)

That should be kill the Zombie-Zergs. Coordinated groups also hit through the snare and the DMG / Heal debuff, as well as the 2 minute cooldown. Dying should be punished in PvP.

Away with the Emperor

The emperor is abolished. We need Merkel! Small joke. I think the Emperor-Buff should be redesigned and much more reward the faction, rather than a single player. How many times is the Emperor not online or sitting in IC the whole day?

I would prefer a buff like "Imperial Inspiration". I introduced this buff in Imperial City into Base Game – „Liberation of IC“. This is the second part of which I have spoken. The buff is given after 15 minutes of holding an overland District.

The „Imperial Inspiration“

• Does only work together with Imperial City into Base Game – „Liberation of IC“
• Each held Imperial City District gives a unique Buff „Imperial Inspiration I-VI“
• Each „Imperial Inspiration“ of a District buffs another effect:
  • I -> 1500 HP
  • II -> 1000 Magicka
  • III -> 1000 Stamina
  • IV -> 5% Armor
  • V -> 250 Stamina-Reg
  • VI -> 250 Magicka-Reg
• To activate the Buff you need to hold a District for 15 Minutes
• If the Buff is activated, it lasts 2 hours
• The Buff can only be renewed after expiration

Briefly explained: If the District is still under control when the corresponding buff expires, the timer will start immediately. After 15 minutes there is the buff again. So keep it steady for 2h buff, hold for 15 min, 2h buff. If the District is lost within 15 minutes, there is no buff. Districts change quickly, so holding on to 15 minutes can be exhausting.

That would be my "more global" balancing suggestions for Cyrodiil. Some are definitely provocative and worthy of discussion. Please give me your opinion!

IxSTALKERxI

I can get behind completely removing battlesprit if they divide every single stat bonus from itemization by 2 and cap CP stars at like 15%. They would have to adjust PvE monsters health / damage accordingly. Game would be much better off tbh.

Examples:

Hunding's Rage
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(5 items) Adds 299 Weapon Damage

Hunding's Rage
(2 items) Adds 417 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 548 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 417 Weapon Critical
(5 items) Adds 150 Weapon Damage

Clockwork Citrus Fillet:
Health - 3724
Health Recovory - 351
Magicka - 3458
Magicka Recovory - 319

Clockwork Citrus Fillet:
Health -1862
Health Recovory - 175
Magicka - 1729
Magicka Recovory - 160

Arcane: 870
Arcane: 435

Magicka Glyph: 868
Magicka Glyph: 434

Plus mundus stones etc.

Powercreep in this game is stupid, i think if you took battlespirit away without doing anything else meta would be heavy armor and all attributes in health lol - no one would wear light or medium.

Taonnor

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Powercreep in this game is stupid, i think if you took battlespirit away without doing anything else meta would be heavy armor and all attributes in health lol - no one would wear light or medium.

Probably, yes. I think after removing Battle Spirit they are some adjustments needed. Especially the Power. But i never liked the "flat balancing" via Battle Spirit. It's dump. You will ever have side effects if you balance PvE & PvP, because they work complete different with Battle Spirit.

My "Dogma" for balancing would be: Balance PvP and adjust PvE

In my eyes it is alot esiear to adjust the PvE Environment with Mechanics and Stats as to try balance PvE and PvP. That should not mean now that balancing issues from PvE (Like adjusting PvE DPS for all possible playstyles) are completly forbidden. But they should always before through the PvP balancing filter.

Balancing is a very complex topic. And alone with this fact is a "Global Balancing Buff/Debuff" like Battle Spirit the wrong way. It is the easy, lazy way to trying to fix things.

Bergzorn

Some of the ideas are interesting. But removing battle spirit sounds like a ganker's wet dream.

Taonnor

Bergzorn wrote: »

Some of the ideas are interesting. But removing battle spirit sounds like a ganker's wet dream.

Yes, but the ganker itself is so squishy too without Battle Spirit. If the gank fails, he will die faster as currently.

Bergzorn

I'm not generally opposed to a removal of Battle Spirit, but

Taonnor wrote: »

Yes, but the ganker itself is so squishy too without Battle Spirit. If the gank fails, he will die faster as currently.

That's my point, with damage doubled and 5k less health on the target, there won't be many failing gangks. Not even running in a group would protect you from getting picked off by a glass canon snipe (followed by cloak ofc). Players would have to build all for health and passive defense to stand a chance against this.

There needs to be some mechanic reducing damage to players. If it's not Battle Spirit in its current form, maybe limiting the damage done against players of a single hit to XX% of your own health could work. I'm not sure if this would be better than the current system.

Taonnor

Bergzorn wrote: »

I'm not generally opposed to a removal of Battle Spirit, but

Taonnor wrote: »

Yes, but the ganker itself is so squishy too without Battle Spirit. If the gank fails, he will die faster as currently.

That's my point, with damage doubled and 5k less health on the target, there won't be many failing gangks. Not even running in a group would protect you from getting picked off by a glass canon snipe (followed by cloak ofc). Players would have to build all for health and passive defense to stand a chance against this.

There needs to be some mechanic reducing damage to players. If it's not Battle Spirit in its current form, maybe limiting the damage done against players of a single hit to XX% of your own health could work. I'm not sure if this would be better than the current system.

Yes that is a controversial point. But rember: Sooner or later the gankers does not find any targets to kill, because the main of the players play defensive builds. What picture do have then in PvP? Is it not the point you try to adjust with limitting dmg on players?

If you decide to play as glass cannon you must accept that you one hit too for other glass cannon builds.

Checkmath

Taonnor wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Some of the ideas are interesting. But removing battle spirit sounds like a ganker's wet dream.

Yes, but the ganker itself is so squishy too without Battle Spirit. If the gank fails, he will die faster as currently.

You forgot, that the ganker class nightblade has an unique skill, which allows resetting fights and reengaging very easely. Removing battle spirit would prohibit anyone not with a nightblade class being able to play a damage dealer and would encourage ganking on a high level. Currently good gankers are able to burst down somebody with 30k in one or two seconds without any chance to react. Without battlespirit that would be 60k damage. I see no way how anyone would build for so much health, especially when the 5k health of battlespirit is missing. Basically to counter nightblades, you need at minimum 40k health for not being an easy one shot. And even if you survive the initial gank attempt, you will not catch any nightblades, since they will right away disappear if the one shot combo fails (you probably are still stunned at this point). PvP would mean "be a gankblade or gtfo", since everything else is not viable in the eyes of those gankers. Therefore the nightblade population would increase, gank teams will be a famous playstyle, so that even smallscale is no option anymore. Everything else but huge zergs or big coordinated guildgroups with 30k health minimum would be the result, since smale scale will be not viable due to the presenece of nightblade gank groups eliminating small scale groups in seconds. If we follow this route even further, you will see that not even zergs or big guilds groups will succeed anymore, since gankers will even outplay such big groups by oneshotting your group members one after another with such high damage and low TTK, that you will not even be able to rez your friends (rezzing is a death sentence by itself, since you are unprotected during the channel animation and an even easier target to gankers).

Therefore I strongly disagree with your solution, because it only favors one class. Battle spirit as it is now, protects everyone to a certain degree from ganking. Still it is possible to burst someone down with 30k health with a good gank attempt. Giving gankers even more power will make every PvP aspect unplayable for any other class without a one button stealth ability.

Taonnor

Checkmath wrote: »

Therefore I strongly disagree with your solution, because it only favors one class. Battle spirit as it is now, protects everyone to a certain degree from ganking. Still it is possible to burst someone down with 30k health with a good gank attempt. Giving gankers even more power will make every PvP aspect unplayable for any other class without a one button stealth ability.

So why we not try to do something against this, if an overall DMG nerv in PvP is only for balancing one class?

Checkmath

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Therefore I strongly disagree with your solution, because it only favors one class. Battle spirit as it is now, protects everyone to a certain degree from ganking. Still it is possible to burst someone down with 30k health with a good gank attempt. Giving gankers even more power will make every PvP aspect unplayable for any other class without a one button stealth ability.

So why we not try to do something against this, if an overall DMG nerv in PvP is only for balancing one class?

I did not say battlespirit is there to keep in check one specific class, I said, that it al teast protects us to a certain degree from ganking. Similarly battle spirit saves us from templars casting one breath of life to heal up 40k health. Both immense healing and immense damage should not be encouraged by the game via removing battlespirit, since it only encourages playing a class, which is at the top of either damage or healing.

Toning down healing and damage is the right way at the moment. Otherwise you need to get rid of any stealth mechanic, meaning remodelling the nightblade class or at least take away cloak and also redesigning the mechanic of sneaking. Sneraking has a very big impact on the game right now like ambushing enemy groups, preparing traps, etc. Theoretically a lot of strategical movements are possible by sneaking and that actually all would have to go for your change.

zyk

The reason Battle Spirit exists is because the game is tuned for PVE first -- which includes fighting NPC boss opponents with millions of hit points. Those NPC boss opponents sometimes hit very hard, requiring high burst heals at times.

If the game was tuned for PVP only, Battlespirit wouldn't be necessary because the parameters would be completely different with lower damage and heals.

Really, what's necessary is for all skills to be manually tuned for PVE and PVP separately. Then there would be no need for the blanket changes of Battlespirit.

I am also strongly against making heals group only. From day one, many players enjoy playing ungrouped, but situationally working with teammates who may be present to fight the opposition. This gameplay must be preserved. It is an essential feature for a significant portion of the playerbase.

Taonnor

@Checkmath

What if you get involved in the thought experiment: Battle Spirit does not exist. What would you change then? That would very interest me.

Checkmath

Taonnor wrote: »

@Checkmath

What if you get involved in the thought experiment: Battle Spirit does not exist. What would you change then? That would very interest me.

I would play stamina nightblade with swift jewelry and some magicka regen to cloak enough. Knowing that there is a class out, which could one shot everyone without 60k health would make me play something, that can move undetected. Everything else in my eyes would be futile, because I would only get ganked moving somewhere. "I see a resource under attack and want to have a look at it, so I get out the keep and move towards said resource: bam ganked." Solo play would be impossible. "I move somewhere with my guild group and one after another dies at the back of the group because of gankers." Even groupplay will be difficult against gank groups taking one after another out. The same goes for zergs, where always the ones in the back will die by those gankers.

The problem with this situations is: If there is the possibility to deal so much damage, that you are only safe from gankers with 60k health, then i surely would choose the ganker style myself. How can you build for fighting, when you know that you can drop to zero very fast. If you are not a ganker, you would have to go for 60 health or for permanent shieldstacking. So I can wear plague doctor and another health set and put all my attributes into health, with no damage left at all. So without a group I can not deal with nightblades, because either I am a one shot or I have no damage to kill them. The other way is to play a magsorc with necropotency and shieldstacking, never able to mount a horse or being careless, because without my shields I am dead again. Or I play nightblade and have no worries at all.

Those are the realistic choices left, when everyone knows that one class can perform such insane burst moves. Either you join the nightblade forces or you adapt your build to the degree, where you can not play at all. Either you are a ganker, a shieldstacker sorc (who can not allow his shields to drop for one second) or you are a tank without the damage to even kill the gankers.
If you have those choices, what would YOU do?

zyk

Without Battle Spirit, there wouldn't just be Nightblade gankers. There would be glass cannons of all types in high mobility builds around every respawn point. There are players who would be okay with dying a lot for the lulz. There would also be those that never leave keep/outpost walls.

The rest of us would be running around with 50-80k hp and no further ahead. If anything, the TTK would go up.

Good fights between non-gank builds would constantly be spoiled by glass cannons -- who, again, are doing it for the lulz.

It would also make it a hassle to play the same character in both PVE and PVP without respeccing attributes. Currently, I just need to switch bars and gear for all of my characters.

Taonnor

Checkmath wrote: »

If you have those choices, what would YOU do?

I think you missunderstood me.

I wanted to talk about needed balancing changes if Battle Spirit is not there.

Checkmath

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

If you have those choices, what would YOU do?

I think you missunderstood me.

I wanted to talk about needed balancing changes if Battle Spirit is not there.

And i told you: remove cloak and sneaking and the adjusting skill tooltips will do. But removing cloak would remove the most special thing a nightblade has. And removing sneak will make whole DLCs completely nonsense and would remove a lot of strategic moves from PvP.

Checkmath wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Therefore I strongly disagree with your solution, because it only favors one class. Battle spirit as it is now, protects everyone to a certain degree from ganking. Still it is possible to burst someone down with 30k health with a good gank attempt. Giving gankers even more power will make every PvP aspect unplayable for any other class without a one button stealth ability.

So why we not try to do something against this, if an overall DMG nerv in PvP is only for balancing one class?

I did not say battlespirit is there to keep in check one specific class, I said, that it al teast protects us to a certain degree from ganking. Similarly battle spirit saves us from templars casting one breath of life to heal up 40k health. Both immense healing and immense damage should not be encouraged by the game via removing battlespirit, since it only encourages playing a class, which is at the top of either damage or healing.

Toning down healing and damage is the right way at the moment. Otherwise you need to get rid of any stealth mechanic, meaning remodelling the nightblade class or at least take away cloak and also redesigning the mechanic of sneaking. Sneraking has a very big impact on the game right now like ambushing enemy groups, preparing traps, etc. Theoretically a lot of strategical movements are possible by sneaking and that actually all would have to go for your change.

Here again my previous post, about which balance acts first need to be taken to make your idea even possible. As long as sneaking and cloak exists, damage is unbalanced between classes, who have easy access to those two mechanics and the other classes. As soon as both are removed, then also nightblades would need to build for tankyness. In the end, this would only result in adapting your health bar size via sets or attribute points.

Zer0oo

Right now we have ~24k hp with battle spirit and to get the same tankyness without battle spirit we would have to get 48k hp. And even right now a player with 24k hp in medium or light can be instant busted with an ulti.
So play 50+k hp or some players can instant kill you? (Ganking, hiding behind a zerg,...)

Taonnor

@Checkmath

So as i understand it right the great problems are the "Sneak & Hit" play styles, which gives the advantage that the opposing player can you attack without you have a chance to counter it.

Is this not a generally gameplay/design problem of such these mechanics? As I have observed the discussions from the past few months. Were these mechanics not exactly the problem? Was not "Incap" nerved because of this?

So if these gank mechanic is already a problem. Why not solving it correctly and then removing Battle Spirit?

Checkmath

Checkmath wrote: »

And i told you: remove cloak and sneaking and the adjusting skill tooltips will do. But removing cloak would remove the most special thing a nightblade has. And removing sneak will make whole DLCs completely nonsense and would remove a lot of strategic moves from PvP.

There is the reason, why this will not happen. It will destroy a whole class and several DLCs. You saw the recent ruckus about magsorc not being playable anymore, because of the shield nerf? It will be the same with nightblade, just more.

ZoS at the beginning decided, that there will be a rogue class, a class specialized in sneaking, hiding, being invisible, assassinating people. So why should a whole class be changed and at least 2 DLCs need to be reworked for the simple change of doubling damage, healing and shield for PvP. This game is mostly about PvE, questing, doing overland stuff or dungeons and only a small part is PvP. So in all that content, stealth and cloak is not a problem at all, it even is required for some content. So stating it is a problem, is actually not right. In the current state, it is also not a problem, since it is a risky play style(surely not the riskiest one), but also not an overpowered one. It is a risk-reward-relation, exactly what it should be.

But removing battle spirit makes a problem out of it.

Taonnor

Checkmath wrote: »

This game is mostly about PvE, questing, doing overland stuff or dungeons and only a small part is PvP.

Hard but sad truth.

For this reason i already said: My "Dogma" for balancing would be: Balance PvP and adjust PvE

At the moment ZOS have huge problems to get both balanced. The sorc discussions brings that up in front. My Suggestion to remove BS is to going deep into the root problems of ESO for PvP.

IxSTALKERxI

It has nothing to do with nightblade's or cloak etc. What we are discussing is pretty simple actually:

Max health pool vs Damage, heals and shields.
This is the dial that goes out of whack with power creep, and it is the reason why we have battlespirit.

It's not just about damage and ganking etc, it's also about shields being double your max health pool and breath of life taking you straight to full health. Heck imagine if the ratio was so out of whack that each tick of healing springs could send you back to 100% health - an extreme example but that is all we are talking about here. Size of damage, healing and shields in comparison to size of health. Simple.

It is not possible to remove battle spirit without re balancing the whole game and incorporating it into it's core, in fact recently I've suggested that the current battle spirit isn't quite strong enough after the last few patches, this is one of the reasons why I believe we have a heavy armor meta currently.

Taonnor wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

I'm not generally opposed to a removal of Battle Spirit, but

Taonnor wrote: »

Yes, but the ganker itself is so squishy too without Battle Spirit. If the gank fails, he will die faster as currently.

That's my point, with damage doubled and 5k less health on the target, there won't be many failing gangks. Not even running in a group would protect you from getting picked off by a glass canon snipe (followed by cloak ofc). Players would have to build all for health and passive defense to stand a chance against this.

There needs to be some mechanic reducing damage to players. If it's not Battle Spirit in its current form, maybe limiting the damage done against players of a single hit to XX% of your own health could work. I'm not sure if this would be better than the current system.

Yes that is a controversial point. But rember: Sooner or later the gankers does not find any targets to kill, because the main of the players play defensive builds. What picture do have then in PvP? Is it not the point you try to adjust with limitting dmg on players?

If you decide to play as glass cannon you must accept that you one hit too for other glass cannon builds.

Ok, so you are talking about a DPS character having to sacrifise damage to gain more survivability. The same argument can be made if the dial was adjusted the same way. If you increased the effectiveness of battlespirit, tanks would have to sacrifice tankiness to have enough damage to kill the squishier players.

Again, this is why I've always believed that the heavy armor meta is caused by the power creep. To shift the meta back to medium or light you increase the effect of battlespirit so that everyones damage/ healing/ shields is less in comparison to player health pools.

Anyways, it is possible to remove battle spirit but only if you rebalance the entire game, so that everyones healing and DPS is half as potent as it is currently, or increase everyone's max health but that leads to attribute rebalance issues which leads to sustain rebalancing and then ability cost rebalance etc. and it all becomes a big mess haha. You also need to rebalance all of PVE. I think if you halved the potency of all itemization in the game and did some pve balancing it might work, but there would still be several edge cases that would need to be dealt with separately.

Taonnor

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Anyways, it is possible to remove battle spirit but only if you rebalance the entire game, so that everyones healing and DPS is half as potent as it is currently, or increase everyone's max health but that leads to attribute rebalance issues which leads to sustain rebalancing and then ability cost rebalance etc. and it all becomes a big mess haha. You also need to rebalance all of PVE. I think if you halved the potency of all itemization in the game and did some pve balancing it might work, but there would still be several edge cases that would need to be dealt with separately.

Correctly. I think that's what will amount. -> Balance PvP and adjust PvE

Another question: With removing BS the DMG is too strong. But why? Heavy Armor is not effective enough. What if the maximum possible mitigation by armor will be increased to 75% in this case?

IxSTALKERxI

Taonnor wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Anyways, it is possible to remove battle spirit but only if you rebalance the entire game, so that everyones healing and DPS is half as potent as it is currently, or increase everyone's max health but that leads to attribute rebalance issues which leads to sustain rebalancing and then ability cost rebalance etc. and it all becomes a big mess haha. You also need to rebalance all of PVE. I think if you halved the potency of all itemization in the game and did some pve balancing it might work, but there would still be several edge cases that would need to be dealt with separately.

Correctly. I think that's what will amount. -> Balance PvP and adjust PvE

Another question: With removing BS the DMG is too strong. But why? Heavy Armor is not effective enough. What if the maximum possible mitigation by armor will be increased to 75% in this case?

No no no that's different again, everything we are talking about should be factored in before resistances are taken into account. It's not just the damage that is too strong, the healing is equally too strong.

The reason why is simple. As an example back let's say that back in imperial city patch when battle spirit was introduced a person wore 3 agility jewlery, 5 hundings rage and 3 morag tong and maybe some tri-food.

Compare that to what that person could wear now as an example:
5 ravanger, 5 bone pirate and still have 2 balgorh even though they have a 2h weapon equiped and don't need s&B or dual wield., with new gold drink that increases stam regen, health regen, stamina and health...

So much higher max stamina and weapon power, increasing the power of their heals such as vigor, as well as the power of their damage abilities. You then have ability combo's added to the game such as sub assault + dawnbreaker which emphasizes the burst meta. There was destro ult/ resto ult added to the game and every patch powerful buffs such as major vitality are made more easily accessible to players. Then there is the champion system... increasing players healing shielding and damage in proportion to everyone's max health even further. What does zos do? Balance it by adding a set like plague doctor and calling it a day.

Look at the DPS passes of PVE in current patch compared to imperial city patch. Now look at their health pools. What has increased more, their damage / healing or their health? lol.

There is a reason why 'healers feel useless' in pve. There is a reason why sorcs shields are too strong in pve... and no the answer isn't adding some dumb 40% bandaid or cast time to the damage shields... how bout you balance the damn game properly and fix the cause of the problem.

Checkmath

Taonnor wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Anyways, it is possible to remove battle spirit but only if you rebalance the entire game, so that everyones healing and DPS is half as potent as it is currently, or increase everyone's max health but that leads to attribute rebalance issues which leads to sustain rebalancing and then ability cost rebalance etc. and it all becomes a big mess haha. You also need to rebalance all of PVE. I think if you halved the potency of all itemization in the game and did some pve balancing it might work, but there would still be several edge cases that would need to be dealt with separately.

Correctly. I think that's what will amount. -> Balance PvP and adjust PvE

Another question: With removing BS the DMG is too strong. But why? Heavy Armor is not effective enough. What if the maximum possible mitigation by armor will be increased to 75% in this case?

There you are a bit too naive. As already said, this game is mainly about PvE and classes do not perform equally in PvE and PvP. So you suggest catering around the small playerbase of PvP, meanwhile the big part of the players play PvE and may suffer because of PvP changes. Also suggesting to address the core problems of ESO is nearly impossible, since the original creators of ESO do not necessarily work at ZoS anymore, so the code of the game is very hard to handle for those working there right now. Basically it is by far easier to do bandaid fixes than core changes, since the devs maybe are not familiar anymore with the original code.

With removing BS you cause a major imbalance between damage and health, not damage and resistances. Go look at some hard hitting abilities and tell me their tooltips in PvE. Doubling the damage and meanwhile lowering the general health size is just not feasable. an option, would be to double health bars in general and make everything hit twice as hard in PvE. But that is not, what you suggested before. Also increasing the resistance cap does not help, because you made damage double for free, but you did not grant more resistances in the same time. Meaning everyone would have to adjust and get higher resistances. This again leads to a heavy armor meta (if we do not already have one), since light and medium armor can not provide enough of resistances. Naturally you could increase base resistances of armor pieces and passives, still does this not outweigh the doubled damage.

IxSTALKERxI

I don't even do PvE and I don't think it's balanced. The bosses damage should be increasing each patch the same as the players. Players should be having to run like 30k health in pve... Either that or they should be still doing the same DPS as they were like 3 years ago.

Taonnor

Checkmath wrote: »

... an option, would be to double health bars in general and make everything hit twice as hard in PvE. But that is not, what you suggested before.

No. This is exactly what i mean with "Adjusting PvE". Why is it harder to "Adjust" PvE, instead of trying balancing over years PvP & PvE?

Checkmath

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

... an option, would be to double health bars in general and make everything hit twice as hard in PvE. But that is not, what you suggested before.

No. This is exactly what i mean with "Adjusting PvE". Why is it harder to "Adjust" PvE, instead of trying balancing over years PvP & PvE?

Because PvE is the core of the game, therefore balancing the core is difficult because of the code and also why should you balance a mainly PvE game around PvP, when you first off want to satisfy the PvEers?

Taonnor

Checkmath wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

... an option, would be to double health bars in general and make everything hit twice as hard in PvE. But that is not, what you suggested before.

No. This is exactly what i mean with "Adjusting PvE". Why is it harder to "Adjust" PvE, instead of trying balancing over years PvP & PvE?

Because PvE is the core of the game, therefore balancing the core is difficult because of the code and also why should you balance a mainly PvE game around PvP, when you first off want to satisfy the PvEers?

This can only be answered by Zenimax itself. Do they want PvP and their small player base or not. If yes, they should; no must do more.

Checkmath

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Taonnor wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

... an option, would be to double health bars in general and make everything hit twice as hard in PvE. But that is not, what you suggested before.

No. This is exactly what i mean with "Adjusting PvE". Why is it harder to "Adjust" PvE, instead of trying balancing over years PvP & PvE?

Because PvE is the core of the game, therefore balancing the core is difficult because of the code and also why should you balance a mainly PvE game around PvP, when you first off want to satisfy the PvEers?

This can only be answered by Zenimax itself. Do they want PvP and their small player base or not. If yes, they should; no must do more.

I think you already got an answer how ZoS sees this: Just look at the content they bring every year, a chapter, two dungeons DLCs and a new overland map.

Look some of your ideas about convoys, resources and IC are good, I just can not agree with the removing of the battle spirit and class merging, because it will hurt the game more than it helps. And it also will not happen from the ZoS side, because removing battle spirit will result in much more work with the follow up changes than actually do small changes to the classes.

BRogueNZ

Interesting discussion. The grouped only heals idea I feel you haven't really thought through entirely.

DivineFirstYOLO

I like the discussion in this thread - I read almost everything, but I still don't really know why you want to remove Battle Spirit. Is it to remove some of the lag? Are you thinking it causes too many calculations in the back ground?

Checkmath and STALKER gave good examples on why it is not that easy to remove BS. Cloak, stealth (overload sorcs, sniper builds - any class, etc.), one-click heals like breath of life and a lot more skills will become a problem. There would be too much to change, hence I think ZOS will not ever remove Battle Spirit.

Also I do not believe that removing BS will contribute towards build diversity - just take a look at the no cp campaign - people are already forced to play with sustain sets. Without BS they will have to play plague doctor + 1 sustain set so that they stay alive long enough to react to the high damage. At least that's how I imagine things would change.

I really like the idea of a rez debuff, but I am not 100% sure how you want it to work. Let's say player A dies, does it mean he gets this "Rezz-Sickness" after he got resurrected? Or does player B (who was resurrecting player A) get the debuff? I'm confused because of this:

"Rezzing of this player is not possible, till the Rezz-Sickness is gone (like cooldown of Camps)"

Does it mean player A can be resurrected once and after that he gets the sickness and will not be able to be resurrected for 2 mins?
Anyway, I like this idea. If I had a free wish I would like this change to the rezzing system to become true.

Lastly, I do see why you want heals to only affect group members, but that would probably make too many of them zerg surfers leave cyrodiil - that would be bad for the population count.

I haven't read this thread Imperial City into Base Game – „Liberation of IC“ yet, so I cannot judge about the part with the Emperor changes, but I do agree that the EMP system needs changes.

No idea if anyone at ZOS is reading your threads, but maybe you @Checkmath and @Tasear (I've seen you active in other threads related to PvP) could bring some of Taonnors ideas closer to the Devs. So they get some new ideas they can think about :-)