Premade groups are ruining battlegrounds...

bakermir

No

wheem_ESO wrote: »

bakermir wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... do they? I think so. It's no fun to deal with one or even two premade groups in battlegrounds.

Why is there no option to prevent this? 1 and 2 players should count as "single" and 3 and 4 player groups should count as group and be treated as such when it comes to matchmaking.

And no, it is no solution to counter premade groups with the argument "go look for a group yourself".

This just sounds like people saying "faction lock is good for AvA!!1"

People like you complaining about other players teaming up in a MMO game is ruining this game.

Getting owned by premade groups? Make your own one then.

We all walk the same path.

I switched from WoW few months ago after 10 years of playing it because of players like you turning the game into single player grind fiesta.

I hope ZOS reverts faction lock too.

Could I put together a premade group? Yes. Do I want to run in a premade group that will frequently be facing off against solo queued players who may not even get a full team? Absolutely not.

I'll group queue when there are other premades running, but even then sometimes you'll get into different games than they do. Being on either end of a "pug stomp" is boring, and I honestly don't understand how some people just don't get that.

We already have faction lock now and you guys want battleground lock added to it.

Yeah, lets remove all the builds and gears while are at it. Why not? Just make everyone clone of each other because being competitive is "boring" to you people.

Cathexis

Yes

bakermir wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

bakermir wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... do they? I think so. It's no fun to deal with one or even two premade groups in battlegrounds.

Why is there no option to prevent this? 1 and 2 players should count as "single" and 3 and 4 player groups should count as group and be treated as such when it comes to matchmaking.

And no, it is no solution to counter premade groups with the argument "go look for a group yourself".

This just sounds like people saying "faction lock is good for AvA!!1"

People like you complaining about other players teaming up in a MMO game is ruining this game.

Getting owned by premade groups? Make your own one then.

We all walk the same path.

I switched from WoW few months ago after 10 years of playing it because of players like you turning the game into single player grind fiesta.

I hope ZOS reverts faction lock too.

Could I put together a premade group? Yes. Do I want to run in a premade group that will frequently be facing off against solo queued players who may not even get a full team? Absolutely not.

I'll group queue when there are other premades running, but even then sometimes you'll get into different games than they do. Being on either end of a "pug stomp" is boring, and I honestly don't understand how some people just don't get that.

We already have faction lock now and you guys want battleground lock added to it.

Yeah, lets remove all the builds and gears while are at it. Why not? Just make everyone clone of each other because being competitive is "boring" to you people.

Bwahahaha a competent, organized premade will beat a random pug almost every time, if not every time.

Competitive lol. Just lol.

Cathexis

Yes

Blue_Radium wrote: »

It honestly seems like an impossible problem. PvP only works well when it's fun in and of itself, where the competition and the social connections drive it. Building systems to hit that critical mass that lets it run on autopilot doesn't mesh with with ESO's One Tamriel, everyone together always design.

Are you serious? So many people have given the answer and it's simple. You put solo players in a separate queue.

The notion that it has to be driven by social connections is really just one category of player trying to assert some kind of *** nonsense made up sense of superiority because they can Discord into a human multibox and feel entitled to ruin PvP for their own enjoyment imo.

This is not rocket surgery.
Separate queue. Problem solved.

jcm2606

Yes

The solution isn't even solo queue, the solution is just to move group matching off of MMR onto its own variable. The entire reason why solo queues are matching against premades is because Zenimax, in their infinite wisdom, decided it was a brilliant idea to inflate the performance ranking metric based on group size.


The only thing separating premades from solo queues is, assuming everyone is at the same performance level, the premade has higher MMR due to inflation. That's it. If the solo queue is better than all the premade players combined, their MMR is naturally higher than the premade's, so they can match against the premade. If the solo queue has been sitting in the queue for eons, the queue is so relaxed when it comes to matching via MMR, that they can match against the premade.

Remove MMR inflation from groups, create a new ranking metric based on group size that works alongside MMR to determine optimal matching, and watch as solo queues suddenly only match against the occasional duo, and maybe rarely a 3-man, depending on how the new ranking metric works.

Cathexis

Yes

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

3 games today and there have been 2 premades in all 3 of them.

Whatever, it's not even worth ranting over it.

You have attained God Moad MMR, and must be pummelled accordingly. It is the will of Molag Bal.

wheem_ESO

Yes

bakermir wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

bakermir wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... do they? I think so. It's no fun to deal with one or even two premade groups in battlegrounds.

Why is there no option to prevent this? 1 and 2 players should count as "single" and 3 and 4 player groups should count as group and be treated as such when it comes to matchmaking.

And no, it is no solution to counter premade groups with the argument "go look for a group yourself".

This just sounds like people saying "faction lock is good for AvA!!1"

People like you complaining about other players teaming up in a MMO game is ruining this game.

Getting owned by premade groups? Make your own one then.

We all walk the same path.

I switched from WoW few months ago after 10 years of playing it because of players like you turning the game into single player grind fiesta.

I hope ZOS reverts faction lock too.

Could I put together a premade group? Yes. Do I want to run in a premade group that will frequently be facing off against solo queued players who may not even get a full team? Absolutely not.

I'll group queue when there are other premades running, but even then sometimes you'll get into different games than they do. Being on either end of a "pug stomp" is boring, and I honestly don't understand how some people just don't get that.

We already have faction lock now and you guys want battleground lock added to it.

Yeah, lets remove all the builds and gears while are at it. Why not? Just make everyone clone of each other because being competitive is "boring" to you people.

Nice non sequitur.

I've actually stated, multiple times, that I'd like to see some more competitive PvP options brought to ESO. Maybe that'll become a reality some day - it does seem like they're at least trying to improve the overall balance of the game.

Either way, you queueing up for BGs with a group, especially if you're going all tryhard with complimentary builds and focus fired ult dumps and whatnot, makes PvP less competitive, not more. Unless of course you're organizing three different groups at the same time, and only taking the queue pop if all 3 teams get it. But I somehow doubt that that's what you're doing.

Rolexdt

Yes

I dont get what the big deal is just add an option to run either 4 vs 4 team matches or 1/2 players max.

I ran into another bg yesterday with a premade team and it's just utter trash how boring and non competitive this is. The 3rd team had ZERO kills....zip. My team killed a few but it felt like running into a meat grinder having these losers stack their ultimates.

MaxJrFTW

Yes

My 1st game of the day. Not even with my main, this is with an alt that has a total of 78 bgs played. Competitive ESO ya'll.

karekiz

Yes

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

My 1st game of the day. Not even with my main, this is with an alt that has a total of 78 bgs played. Competitive ESO ya'll.

I agree with you. Its a tad silly.


By "Competitive" most mean pug stomp to feelz good, then turn around and say the other team should have got gud and had 4 perfectly OP breaking synergy setups premade into their group.

Thats why Arena mode needs to be made and Battlegrounds should be made for casual play.

Ohh wait I guess people are hesitant to just say the truth. If an Arena mode would exist it would have like 20 players max and essentially be dead in a month or two.

ChunkyCat

Yes

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

My 1st game of the day. Not even with my main, this is with an alt that has a total of 78 bgs played. Competitive ESO ya'll.

Should’ve got gud and Learnt 2P.

MaxJrFTW

Yes

CoMpEtITiVe pVp!

Thogard

No

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CoMpEtITiVe pVp!

Red team is just a duo

nejcn001

Groups of 4 should always be queued with other group of 4...no?

jediodyn_ESO

Yes

Thogard wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CoMpEtITiVe pVp!

Red team is just a duo

“Just a duo” is still broken in teams of 4. Two players with synchronized builds working together, especially players who a practiced at working together, creates a huge advantage in a battleground full of solos.

Thogard

No

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CoMpEtITiVe pVp!

Red team is just a duo

“Just a duo” is still broken in teams of 4. Two players with synchronized builds working together, especially players who a practiced at working together, creates a huge advantage in a battleground full of solos.

Yeah I agree. I just wanted to point out that it’s a duo not a 4 man.

Iskiab

No

Did three games today with premades in all three. Won one, second in another, last in the third.

Stick with it. People premade for the same reasons they do in pve, to avoid new players. I see very little coordinated class/spec premades and they’re mostly just people playing together who’re experienced.

It can be rough solo queuing and getting an extremely weak team but there are good solo queuers too. Focus more on your own skills instead of trying to get the game to cater to how you like to play.

People can’t control how you play, people are free to do what they want, they need to be able to control who they play with.

Weesacs

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

People can’t control how you play, people are free to do what they want, they need to be able to control who they play with.

I'm pretty sure no one is asking for premades to be removed from BGs. People are asking for a fairer system with separate queues and a much more improved MMR system.

ChunkyCat

Yes

Test

Edit: I passed.

exeeter702

I find it hilarious that "make your own premade" is used as some kind of rebuttal, implying that high level premade BG endeavors are in any way tactical or indicative of some kind of advanced execution or demonstration of skill. Placing eso pvp Under the microscope of small scale instanced no cp focus, without the convenience of large scale random nonsesne equalizers of cyrodil, clearly demonstrates the core fundamental problems with the pvp structure in this game.

The sweatiest of premades are not losing to randomly formed teams, anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke or not experienced in the catagory enough to offer an opinion worth listening to. But organized 4v4v4 premade bgs are an absolute *** show in their own right, full stop.

Separating premade from solo queues is a bandaid patch to what is otherwise the bullet wound that is small scale instanced pvp in eso.

MaxJrFTW

Yes

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that "make your own premade" is used as some kind of rebuttal, implying that high level premade BG endeavors are in any way tactical or indicative of some kind of advanced execution or demonstration of skill. Placing eso pvp Under the microscope of small scale instanced no cp focus, without the convenience of large scale random nonsesne equalizers of cyrodil, clearly demonstrates the core fundamental problems with the pvp structure in this game.

The sweatiest of premades are not losing to randomly formed teams, anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke or not experienced in the catagory enough to offer an opinion worth listening to. But organized 4v4v4 premade bgs are an absolute *** show in their own right, full stop.

Separating premade from solo queues is a bandaid patch to what is otherwise the bullet wound that is small scale instanced pvp in eso.

Such eloquence.

Iskiab

No

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that "make your own premade" is used as some kind of rebuttal, implying that high level premade BG endeavors are in any way tactical or indicative of some kind of advanced execution or demonstration of skill. Placing eso pvp Under the microscope of small scale instanced no cp focus, without the convenience of large scale random nonsesne equalizers of cyrodil, clearly demonstrates the core fundamental problems with the pvp structure in this game.

The sweatiest of premades are not losing to randomly formed teams, anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke or not experienced in the catagory enough to offer an opinion worth listening to. But organized 4v4v4 premade bgs are an absolute *** show in their own right, full stop.

Separating premade from solo queues is a bandaid patch to what is otherwise the bullet wound that is small scale instanced pvp in eso.

Such eloquence.

I’m still not sure what he means though. Something about small scale, ESO pvp uses bandaids, and he doesn’t like premades I think.

Aurielle

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that "make your own premade" is used as some kind of rebuttal, implying that high level premade BG endeavors are in any way tactical or indicative of some kind of advanced execution or demonstration of skill. Placing eso pvp Under the microscope of small scale instanced no cp focus, without the convenience of large scale random nonsesne equalizers of cyrodil, clearly demonstrates the core fundamental problems with the pvp structure in this game.

The sweatiest of premades are not losing to randomly formed teams, anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke or not experienced in the catagory enough to offer an opinion worth listening to. But organized 4v4v4 premade bgs are an absolute *** show in their own right, full stop.

Separating premade from solo queues is a bandaid patch to what is otherwise the bullet wound that is small scale instanced pvp in eso.

Such eloquence.

I’m still not sure what he means though. Something about small scale, ESO pvp uses bandaids, and he doesn’t like premades I think.

The post is very clear. ESO’s PVP was designed around the concept of large scale battles, not small scale. Small scale PVP in this game is completely broken, thanks to sets that were designed with mindless zerging in mind and poor balance decisions. When you have well-optimized, evenly-matched small groups facing one another and running cheese, the result is typically a drawn-out stalemate. “Sweaty” premades (i.e. those stacking the cheesiest sets, who run BGs all day long to get their jollies from pug stomping) aren’t losing to randoms. When you beat a premade group with random players whose builds do not complement each other, it’s not a measure of your own skill; it means you’re playing against a bad premade, not a sweaty premade that’s using cheese and complementary sets/builds.

Separating premades from solo queued players is a band-aid solution. It will certainly improve BGs for those of us who queue solo, but it doesn’t solve the fundamental problem of ESO’s bad small scale scene. 4v4v4 premade matches between well-optimized groups are some of the dullest ways you can waste time in this game.

ChunkyCat

Yes

I always run my builds with a handkerchief, specifically to counter the sweatiness.

Never leave home without it.

Iskiab

No

Aurielle wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that "make your own premade" is used as some kind of rebuttal, implying that high level premade BG endeavors are in any way tactical or indicative of some kind of advanced execution or demonstration of skill. Placing eso pvp Under the microscope of small scale instanced no cp focus, without the convenience of large scale random nonsesne equalizers of cyrodil, clearly demonstrates the core fundamental problems with the pvp structure in this game.

The sweatiest of premades are not losing to randomly formed teams, anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke or not experienced in the catagory enough to offer an opinion worth listening to. But organized 4v4v4 premade bgs are an absolute *** show in their own right, full stop.

Separating premade from solo queues is a bandaid patch to what is otherwise the bullet wound that is small scale instanced pvp in eso.

Such eloquence.

I’m still not sure what he means though. Something about small scale, ESO pvp uses bandaids, and he doesn’t like premades I think.

The post is very clear. ESO’s PVP was designed around the concept of large scale battles, not small scale. Small scale PVP in this game is completely broken, thanks to sets that were designed with mindless zerging in mind and poor balance decisions. When you have well-optimized, evenly-matched small groups facing one another and running cheese, the result is typically a drawn-out stalemate. “Sweaty” premades (i.e. those stacking the cheesiest sets, who run BGs all day long to get their jollies from pug stomping) aren’t losing to randoms. When you beat a premade group with random players whose builds do not complement each other, it’s not a measure of your own skill; it means you’re playing against a bad premade, not a sweaty premade that’s using cheese and complementary sets/builds.

No offense, but posts like this just scream ‘I can’t do it so it can’t be done’. I’m a solo queuer with over a 50% win rate in high MMR.

MaxJrFTW

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that "make your own premade" is used as some kind of rebuttal, implying that high level premade BG endeavors are in any way tactical or indicative of some kind of advanced execution or demonstration of skill. Placing eso pvp Under the microscope of small scale instanced no cp focus, without the convenience of large scale random nonsesne equalizers of cyrodil, clearly demonstrates the core fundamental problems with the pvp structure in this game.

The sweatiest of premades are not losing to randomly formed teams, anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke or not experienced in the catagory enough to offer an opinion worth listening to. But organized 4v4v4 premade bgs are an absolute *** show in their own right, full stop.

Separating premade from solo queues is a bandaid patch to what is otherwise the bullet wound that is small scale instanced pvp in eso.

Such eloquence.

I’m still not sure what he means though. Something about small scale, ESO pvp uses bandaids, and he doesn’t like premades I think.

The post is very clear. ESO’s PVP was designed around the concept of large scale battles, not small scale. Small scale PVP in this game is completely broken, thanks to sets that were designed with mindless zerging in mind and poor balance decisions. When you have well-optimized, evenly-matched small groups facing one another and running cheese, the result is typically a drawn-out stalemate. “Sweaty” premades (i.e. those stacking the cheesiest sets, who run BGs all day long to get their jollies from pug stomping) aren’t losing to randoms. When you beat a premade group with random players whose builds do not complement each other, it’s not a measure of your own skill; it means you’re playing against a bad premade, not a sweaty premade that’s using cheese and complementary sets/builds.

No offense, but posts like this just scream ‘I can’t do it so it can’t be done’. I’m a solo queuer with over a 50% win rate in high MMR.

You're a healer, 1st of all. 2nd, i've seen you more times when i play my alts than when i play my main. You're not high mmr.

Aurielle

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that "make your own premade" is used as some kind of rebuttal, implying that high level premade BG endeavors are in any way tactical or indicative of some kind of advanced execution or demonstration of skill. Placing eso pvp Under the microscope of small scale instanced no cp focus, without the convenience of large scale random nonsesne equalizers of cyrodil, clearly demonstrates the core fundamental problems with the pvp structure in this game.

The sweatiest of premades are not losing to randomly formed teams, anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke or not experienced in the catagory enough to offer an opinion worth listening to. But organized 4v4v4 premade bgs are an absolute *** show in their own right, full stop.

Separating premade from solo queues is a bandaid patch to what is otherwise the bullet wound that is small scale instanced pvp in eso.

Such eloquence.

I’m still not sure what he means though. Something about small scale, ESO pvp uses bandaids, and he doesn’t like premades I think.

The post is very clear. ESO’s PVP was designed around the concept of large scale battles, not small scale. Small scale PVP in this game is completely broken, thanks to sets that were designed with mindless zerging in mind and poor balance decisions. When you have well-optimized, evenly-matched small groups facing one another and running cheese, the result is typically a drawn-out stalemate. “Sweaty” premades (i.e. those stacking the cheesiest sets, who run BGs all day long to get their jollies from pug stomping) aren’t losing to randoms. When you beat a premade group with random players whose builds do not complement each other, it’s not a measure of your own skill; it means you’re playing against a bad premade, not a sweaty premade that’s using cheese and complementary sets/builds.

No offense, but posts like this just scream ‘I can’t do it so it can’t be done’. I’m a solo queuer with over a 50% win rate in high MMR.

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that "make your own premade" is used as some kind of rebuttal, implying that high level premade BG endeavors are in any way tactical or indicative of some kind of advanced execution or demonstration of skill. Placing eso pvp Under the microscope of small scale instanced no cp focus, without the convenience of large scale random nonsesne equalizers of cyrodil, clearly demonstrates the core fundamental problems with the pvp structure in this game.

The sweatiest of premades are not losing to randomly formed teams, anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke or not experienced in the catagory enough to offer an opinion worth listening to. But organized 4v4v4 premade bgs are an absolute *** show in their own right, full stop.

Separating premade from solo queues is a bandaid patch to what is otherwise the bullet wound that is small scale instanced pvp in eso.

Such eloquence.

I’m still not sure what he means though. Something about small scale, ESO pvp uses bandaids, and he doesn’t like premades I think.

The post is very clear. ESO’s PVP was designed around the concept of large scale battles, not small scale. Small scale PVP in this game is completely broken, thanks to sets that were designed with mindless zerging in mind and poor balance decisions. When you have well-optimized, evenly-matched small groups facing one another and running cheese, the result is typically a drawn-out stalemate. “Sweaty” premades (i.e. those stacking the cheesiest sets, who run BGs all day long to get their jollies from pug stomping) aren’t losing to randoms. When you beat a premade group with random players whose builds do not complement each other, it’s not a measure of your own skill; it means you’re playing against a bad premade, not a sweaty premade that’s using cheese and complementary sets/builds.

No offense, but posts like this just scream ‘I can’t do it so it can’t be done’. I’m a solo queuer with over a 50% win rate in high MMR.

You're a healer, 1st of all. 2nd, i've seen you more times when i play my alts than when i play my main. You're not high mmr.

Edit: lest it appear I’m not adding anything constructive to the discussion, I keep seeing PC players telling Iskiab that they’re mid-tier MMR at the most, not high-tier, and I believe it based on their responses to premade-related threads. At mid-tier MMR, some of the premades you see (on PS4 NA, at least) are good players who are just frequently grouped up together. They’re not optimized as a premade or anything like that; they just group together because they enjoy it and are therefore not as effective as they otherwise could be. These groups can be beaten by solo-queued pugs. I beat them on my solo-queued alts quite often. High MMR premades on the other hand — those that are generally min-maxed across the board in meta gear to ensure the greatest chance of success — will almost always beat pugs, even those comprised of objectively excellent solo queued players. If they do lose to a pug (something that is extremely rare), it’s because they screwed up majorly.

Iskiab

No

I usually play on off-peak hours. When I do play during peak hours I’ll get team mates who’re pure BGers.

I’m at 1k BGs played+.

Being a healer, granted that helps.

Aurielle

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

I usually play on off-peak hours. When I do play during peak hours I’ll get team mates who’re pure BGers.

I’m at 1k BGs played+.

Being a healer, granted that helps.

On April 12, you posted this:

Iskiab wrote: »

BRODY wrote: »

How i can know my MMR?

You can’t know, most people are guessing I think.

I was trying to figure mine out but it’s hard. I’ve been playing 9 months now and have done the daily almost every day, sometimes that’s it and other days I’ll spam BGs. I have no idea how many games I’ve played, maybe 400-1k?

My wait times are less than 5 minutes. I think most of the MMR complaints are actually about premade queue times but it’s hard to tell. I queue at different times of the day and the wait isn’t too long, apparently when the hidden MMR value gets too high it limits your matches to other players in high MMR so the wait times are long.

In three months, you’ve gone from not being at all certain if you’ve played 400 or 1000 matches (and that’s quite the wide possible range), to stating definitively now that you’ve played 1k+ matches. Which is it?

ChunkyCat

Yes

Am I at the beach?

I can smell the saltiness in the air.

MaxJrFTW

Yes

Aurielle wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I usually play on off-peak hours. When I do play during peak hours I’ll get team mates who’re pure BGers.

I’m at 1k BGs played+.

Being a healer, granted that helps.

On April 12, you posted this:

Iskiab wrote: »

BRODY wrote: »

How i can know my MMR?

You can’t know, most people are guessing I think.

I was trying to figure mine out but it’s hard. I’ve been playing 9 months now and have done the daily almost every day, sometimes that’s it and other days I’ll spam BGs. I have no idea how many games I’ve played, maybe 400-1k?

My wait times are less than 5 minutes. I think most of the MMR complaints are actually about premade queue times but it’s hard to tell. I queue at different times of the day and the wait isn’t too long, apparently when the hidden MMR value gets too high it limits your matches to other players in high MMR so the wait times are long.

In three months, you’ve gone from not being at all certain if you’ve played 400 or 1000 matches (and that’s quite the wide possible range), to stating definitively now that you’ve played 1k+ matches. Which is it?

When i started doing bgs i was doing 10+ every day because queues were instant. In fact, my queues were pretty much instant until i started approaching 1k games. My point is you can very easily play over 500 bgs in 3 months if that's your main activity within the game.