Premade groups are ruining battlegrounds...

ecru

Yes

Rolexdt wrote: »

The easy solution is to limit the group to 2 players max for one bg type. These premade are not interested in a "challenge"...they just want to smash pugs. That's the reality. Most of the times that is exactly what they are doing.

I want a heal bot too so I can mana dump on 1 person in unison.

It is true that some people will whine when 4 really good player pugs happen to match up but I think we all know which groups we are really referring to.

I agree that right now two people would be a good compromise so people could at least queue with one friend.

Iskiab

No

Recently I’ve been losing more battlegrounds. I think my MMR rank has dropped and I notice I’m losing more now than before.

I think premades are most effective against middling MMR ranks. A pug of good players will beat premades, I’ve done it multiple times. However one or two poor players is enough to sink a team, and that’s when premades dominate.

One thing about pvp is people usually think they’re better than they are. I’ve had multiple BGs where someone yelled in group chat at everyone, told them they’re terrible and dropped the group. As soon as they left a better player entered and we ended up winning.

You can’t judge who’s ‘good’ by their attitude, if anything people who think they’re amazing are usually terrible. They stop learning so stop improving, staying stagnant as a middling/poor pvper.

Thogard

No

Iskiab wrote: »

Recently I’ve been losing more battlegrounds. I think my MMR rank has dropped and I notice I’m losing more now than before.

I think premades are most effective against middling MMR ranks. A pug of good players will beat premades, I’ve done it multiple times. However one or two poor players is enough to sink a team, and that’s when premades dominate.

One thing about pvp is people usually think they’re better than they are. I’ve had multiple BGs where someone yelled in group chat at everyone, told them they’re terrible and dropped the group. As soon as they left a better player entered and we ended up winning.

You can’t judge who’s ‘good’ by their attitude, if anything people who think they’re amazing are usually terrible. They stop learning so stop improving, staying stagnant as a middling/poor pvper.

Yeah if your pug has one bad player you can’t beat a premade because that bad player will feed points. This is why most high MMR solo queuers hate bowtards.

Rolexdt

Yes

I ve been on the receiving end of some really cancerous premade groups that just pugstomp and it sucks. But the real problem is some of the lame mechanics in this game...blockcasting heals, proc after proc after proc, spin to win, WW in premade, sorc zoos.

LordTareq

Rolexdt wrote: »

I ve been on the receiving end of some really cancerous premade groups that just pugstomp and it sucks. But the real problem is some of the lame mechanics in this game...blockcasting heals, proc after proc after proc, spin to win, WW in premade, sorc zoos.

While I agree some of the cheesy builds are a problem, even if everything was very balanced the premade vs pug would still be an issue. I haven't played a single MMO (except GW2) where this wasn't so, a group of coordinated good players will almost always win vs a pug unless all stars align and you have some of the best players on the server ending up in a pug together (which happens, just rarely), and solo queuers will always complain about this.

In ESO the best solution would be what SWTOR did: an unranked battleground queue and a separate ranked battleground queue for which you need to be in a premade to queue. The latter has better rewards and a leaderboard.

Premades can still queue for unranked (so 4 friends can still team up) but the true hardcore PvP teams will mostly do the ranked battlegrounds, as true PVP'ers are looking for good and challenging encounters and not steamrolling a PUG.

Iskiab

No

LordTareq wrote: »

While I agree some of the cheesy builds are a problem, even if everything was very balanced the premade vs pug would still be an issue. I haven't played a single MMO (except GW2) where this wasn't so, a group of coordinated good players will almost always win vs a pug unless all stars align and you have some of the best players on the server ending up in a pug together (which happens, just rarely), and solo queuers will always complain about this.

In ESO the best solution would be what SWTOR did: an unranked battleground queue and a separate ranked battleground queue for which you need to be in a premade to queue. The latter has better rewards and a leaderboard.

Premades can still queue for unranked (so 4 friends can still team up) but the true hardcore PvP teams will mostly do the ranked battlegrounds, as true PVP'ers are looking for good and challenging encounters and not steamrolling a PUG.

This is an excellent idea. When I first started doing pvp I just wanted to get some experience from doing the daily to build up my CPs. I had pvp’d a lot before but had always joined a guild pre-release specifically for pvp. PvP wasn’t even on my radar when I started playing ESO.

Separating the people who just want to have fun from people who’re geared for pvp and want a challenge is an excellent idea. Then pvp guilds can continue to do premades and people can solo queue without issues.

If I could agree 10 times I would.

vamp_emily

They really need to give some type of reward to wake up some of these PvE players that go to BGs to sleep for 15 min.

Something like: A "chance" to get a random motif if you kill more than 6 players.

Motifs will turn flower pickers into warriors.

Weesacs

Yes

Just did a domination, 1 premade and 2 pugs (I was in one of the pugs). All teams had 3 players. The premade was winning but not with much then they get a fourth player and then win comfortably. The game finishes with the premade having 4 players and the pug teams with 3. You gotta love the logic of BG balancing.

StarOfElyon

Yes

I finally got bored with the game last night. It's not play as you want. There are certain builds that completely remove skill from the game. Players can make mistakes and not be punished for it. People say "get gud" when it has nothing to do with a lack of skill at the game. It's about builds and abusing certain mechanics in the game that don't have effective counterplay. If you're unwilling to build your character similarly, you won't be able to count on being a better fighter to get you by. Hitting this glass ceiling hard last night, I lost interest in the game. It doesn't matter that I won at least two BG after my moment of realization, I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt where my limits were. And it came down to my unwillingness to play the meta.

Aurielle

Yes

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I finally got bored with the game last night. It's not play as you want. There are certain builds that completely remove skill from the game. Players can make mistakes and not be punished for it. People say "get gud" when it has nothing to do with a lack of skill at the game. It's about builds and abusing certain mechanics in the game that don't have effective counterplay. If you're unwilling to build your character similarly, you won't be able to count on being a better fighter to get you by. Hitting this glass ceiling hard last night, I lost interest in the game. It doesn't matter that I won at least two BG after my moment of realization, I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt where my limits were. And it came down to my unwillingness to play the meta.

Pretty much. Some guy in a packleader WW premade (which I had the great joy of encountering multiple times today) told me to “counter” the build when I got salty with him. YOU CANNOT COUNTER A WW PREMADE WHEN YOU ARE IN A PUG. What enjoyment do these guys get from roflstomping pugs? When did people stop caring about challenging PVP? There is NOTHING challenging about stacking a build in a coordinated premade, knowing that the vast majority of the people you’re playing against are solo queued and unoptimized as a team.

If ZOS doesn’t fix BGs soon, they’re going to bleed even more players. Separate the queues.

ccmedaddy

Yes

Aurielle wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I finally got bored with the game last night. It's not play as you want. There are certain builds that completely remove skill from the game. Players can make mistakes and not be punished for it. People say "get gud" when it has nothing to do with a lack of skill at the game. It's about builds and abusing certain mechanics in the game that don't have effective counterplay. If you're unwilling to build your character similarly, you won't be able to count on being a better fighter to get you by. Hitting this glass ceiling hard last night, I lost interest in the game. It doesn't matter that I won at least two BG after my moment of realization, I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt where my limits were. And it came down to my unwillingness to play the meta.

Pretty much. Some guy in a packleader WW premade (which I had the great joy of encountering multiple times today) told me to “counter” the build when I got salty with him. YOU CANNOT COUNTER A WW PREMADE WHEN YOU ARE IN A PUG. What enjoyment do these guys get from roflstomping pugs? When did people stop caring about challenging PVP? There is NOTHING challenging about stacking a build in a coordinated premade, knowing that the vast majority of the people you’re playing against are solo queued and unoptimized as a team.

If ZOS doesn’t fix BGs soon, they’re going to bleed even more players. Separate the queues.

I know the premade you're talking about. I usually just abandon the match when I see their names lol. Just curious--what did he suggest as a counter to a group of WWs with 40k health all exploiting the enchantment bug?

Aurielle

Yes

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I finally got bored with the game last night. It's not play as you want. There are certain builds that completely remove skill from the game. Players can make mistakes and not be punished for it. People say "get gud" when it has nothing to do with a lack of skill at the game. It's about builds and abusing certain mechanics in the game that don't have effective counterplay. If you're unwilling to build your character similarly, you won't be able to count on being a better fighter to get you by. Hitting this glass ceiling hard last night, I lost interest in the game. It doesn't matter that I won at least two BG after my moment of realization, I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt where my limits were. And it came down to my unwillingness to play the meta.

Pretty much. Some guy in a packleader WW premade (which I had the great joy of encountering multiple times today) told me to “counter” the build when I got salty with him. YOU CANNOT COUNTER A WW PREMADE WHEN YOU ARE IN A PUG. What enjoyment do these guys get from roflstomping pugs? When did people stop caring about challenging PVP? There is NOTHING challenging about stacking a build in a coordinated premade, knowing that the vast majority of the people you’re playing against are solo queued and unoptimized as a team.

If ZOS doesn’t fix BGs soon, they’re going to bleed even more players. Separate the queues.

I know the premade you're talking about. I usually just abandon the match when I see their names lol. Just curious--what did he suggest as a counter to a group of WWs with 40k health all exploiting the enchantment bug?

No advice given, he merely proceeded to tell me that I wouldn’t be able to kill him 1v1, blah blah blah, the usual BS. These guys are basically just trolls; they don’t care about balanced or skilled PVP, they just care about stroking their teeny tiny...er...hands.

SirMewser

Yes

Yesterday I played BGs in the afternoon, had 2 games where the entire red team left, another where the team of 4 that started wasn't the same 4 that ended. People are quitting these matches the beginning they see a single team race to 100 before anyone else gets any points, especially those (seemingly) organized DMs.

Also...

rustic_potato wrote: »

Lol NO. I you want to do chaotic PVP with random people then go to Cyro and there is plenty. BGs were ZOS' response for small group PVP. Either play with your friends and form your own group or stop whining.

Your rules are pathetic and not a solution.

SirMewser

Yes

Aurielle wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I finally got bored with the game last night. It's not play as you want. There are certain builds that completely remove skill from the game. Players can make mistakes and not be punished for it. People say "get gud" when it has nothing to do with a lack of skill at the game. It's about builds and abusing certain mechanics in the game that don't have effective counterplay. If you're unwilling to build your character similarly, you won't be able to count on being a better fighter to get you by. Hitting this glass ceiling hard last night, I lost interest in the game. It doesn't matter that I won at least two BG after my moment of realization, I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt where my limits were. And it came down to my unwillingness to play the meta.

Pretty much. Some guy in a packleader WW premade (which I had the great joy of encountering multiple times today) told me to “counter” the build when I got salty with him. YOU CANNOT COUNTER A WW PREMADE WHEN YOU ARE IN A PUG. What enjoyment do these guys get from roflstomping pugs? When did people stop caring about challenging PVP? There is NOTHING challenging about stacking a build in a coordinated premade, knowing that the vast majority of the people you’re playing against are solo queued and unoptimized as a team.

If ZOS doesn’t fix BGs soon, they’re going to bleed even more players. Separate the queues.

I know the premade you're talking about. I usually just abandon the match when I see their names lol. Just curious--what did he suggest as a counter to a group of WWs with 40k health all exploiting the enchantment bug?

No advice given, he merely proceeded to tell me that I wouldn’t be able to kill him 1v1, blah blah blah, the usual BS. These guys are basically just trolls; they don’t care about balanced or skilled PVP, they just care about stroking their teeny tiny...er...hands.

Ego.

Aurielle

Yes

Edit: Looking back on this post, which was written in anger after a ridiculous /tell exchange... yeah, not worth a potential ban. I will simply say that some of the players who run in premades are not nice people at all, and I’m honestly not surprised that they spend 99.9% of their time in this game steamrolling over pugs. I wish I could play against (and with) other people for a change.

Maichail

I'm guessing that they don't want to split the queues into un-ranked and ranked because they don't have a big enough population, which is catch-22. I suspect more players would play if they knew they would be up against players of similar standard. The wait for the better players might be longer though.

The MMR is just daft. I'm not a good PvP player, but because I've played this a fair bit lately (using it to level toon's) I'm getting matched against pre-made's in most games. Throw in a healer and its impossible.

I'm not that bothered about pre-made's, but its the ranking that is incorrect.

They need to rank the players better, based on wins/loss as top metric, and then kills\deaths\assists, and keep the top players away from the newbies (it can't be that hard can it - I repeat that this will probably get more players involved, but might annoy the players who are currently joining together to beat pug groups).

Not this alliance ranking. The amount of time, I see the sparkly stars, and think, "oh we might have a chance" to find out that it means nothing. (Guess some players just have a lot of spare time).

Battlegrounds needs proper rankings, and also need to keep players apart that really shouldn't be on the same pitch.

Even if they made it so that winners would play other winners, it might make a difference. Losers playing against other losers, until they become a winner. (again I think population is an issue here)

wheem_ESO

Yes

Weesacs wrote: »

Just did a domination, 1 premade and 2 pugs (I was in one of the pugs). All teams had 3 players. The premade was winning but not with much then they get a fourth player and then win comfortably. The game finishes with the premade having 4 players and the pug teams with 3. You gotta love the logic of BG balancing.

I've seen this happen numerous times lately; 2-3 man groups of people with high MMR that get solo queued players (also with high MMR) filling out their team while mine (and others) never get past 3.

When the premade is already cheesing it up with build selection, focus firing targets, etc...they don't need the extra firepower and/or healing while my team has 1 Stam player that thinks he's solo open-worlding in Cyrodiil with no team, and a Stamblade that's making a valiant effort but getting focus-bursted down as soon as he's out of stealth. Meanwhile I spend literally >= 90% of every engagement rooted, unable to re-position or even properly target shalks or heals.

It reminds me of why I sometimes take months-long breaks from the game; why bother when my preferred method of playing ESO becomes wall-to-wall boredom that's only occasionally interspersed with fun fights?

ccmedaddy wrote: »

all exploiting the enchantment bug?

Monday can't come fast enough (which is a phrase no one ever really wants to say). I guess console players are stuck with that nonsense for another 2 weeks after the fix for PC, though.

Murkmire released on October 22, 2018, and the enchant issue was fixed for non-Werewolves 1 week later. But "glyph gate" on WW won't be fixed until February 25, 2019...a full 4 months after becoming a big problem. I haven't seen the biggest PC-NA abusers of the bug playing lately, but still - it never should have been left in the game this long.

MaxJrFTW

Yes

Don't even think about queuing right now. I played 6 games today, only 1 didn't have a premade. Left another 3-4 games before the start because all of them had 1 or 2 premades. I hadn't tried to queue games at noon in a couple of months, and i won't do it again unless they make it solo queue. I'll take the 15 min late night queues, at least there's a lot less premades and you can actually play the game.

alexj4596b14_ESO

Seraphayel wrote: »

... do they? I think so. It's no fun to deal with one or even two premade groups in battlegrounds.

Why is there no option to prevent this? 1 and 2 players should count as "single" and 3 and 4 player groups should count as group and be treated as such when it comes to matchmaking.

And no, it is no solution to counter premade groups with the argument "go look for a group yourself".

I can't vote because I'm half and half on this. I play with a friend of mine. We built two toons to play off each other. He is a healer and I am Tanky Ganker type thing, both are Lizzards. There have been plenty of times that we have carried a group, but we have been steam rolled by premade unlimited healing sustained groups.

Over all I have enjoyed the PvP No CP BGs far more then Cyrodil mass PvP. I only have two real complaints no one likes to play objectives and how the Bgs indicators are built into the game like the ball holder need to be improved so they can be seen easier.

wheem_ESO

Yes

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Don't even think about queuing right now. I played 6 games today, only 1 didn't have a premade. Left another 3-4 games before the start because all of them had 1 or 2 premades. I hadn't tried to queue games at noon in a couple of months, and i won't do it again unless they make it solo queue. I'll take the 15 min late night queues, at least there's a lot less premades and you can actually play the game.

I had multiple games in a row vs 3 man teams in the late evening (Central time) yesterday, including one where they were the only team to actually get a 4th (which they started with, though that person wasn't queued with them). When said 3 man is getting all of its damage via focus firing or AOE, and I'm stunned on cooldown while being perma-rooted, it just sucks every ounce of fun out of the game. It's not that my team of randoms lost, either - it's a combination of the "meta" and the fact that their team queued with an advantage, and was then handed an extra advantage in the form of a solid Mag Sorc 4th, vs teams of 3 solo players.

Splitting the queue up between solo and premade might attract more people: both those that want a more competitive group queue, and the players who are tired of solo queueing against tryhard premades. Or, it may not attract more people, and the premade queue will suffer from not having enough players. Frankly, while I'd absolutely prefer the former situation, I'm OK with the latter. Split up your group and fight against each other if it comes down to it, you pansies.

LordTareq

wheem_ESO wrote: »

When the premade is already cheesing it up with build selection, focus firing targets, etc...they don't need the extra firepower and/or healing while my team has 1 Stam player that thinks he's solo open-worlding in Cyrodiil with no team, and a Stamblade that's making a valiant effort but getting focus-bursted down as soon as he's out of stealth. Meanwhile I spend literally >= 90% of every engagement rooted, unable to re-position or even properly target shalks or heals.

It reminds me of why I sometimes take months-long breaks from the game; why bother when my preferred method of playing ESO becomes wall-to-wall boredom that's only occasionally interspersed with fun fights?

I can so very much relate to this

seventyfive

Yes

A battleground match that ends with one premade team getting to 500 points with both the other teams hardly getting to 100-200-300 points or whatever, is hardly en enjoyable experience for the 8 randoms.

And also, I do NOT think it is a sufficient fix to weigh premades elo heavier as that would still result in a poor experience for the random(s) that gets in the same team as 2 or 3 people who are premade.

Iskiab

No

I’m starting to think these ‘premades’ who dominate aren’t premades at all, just a really strong team. I solo queue and get all types; players under CP160, good pvpers and we dominate, high CP players who are terrible.

I’ve played against premades before and won and lost. You can tell it’s a premade because they react in ways that could only be communicated in voice chat. What makes you guys think you’re against a ‘premade’ and not just a better team?

Weesacs

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

What makes you guys think you’re against a ‘premade’ and not just a better team?

Because it's constantly the same players in the same teams over and over? I doubt its the match making system at work because that doesn't happen to me.

wheem_ESO

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

I’m starting to think these ‘premades’ who dominate aren’t premades at all, just a really strong team. I solo queue and get all types; players under CP160, good pvpers and we dominate, high CP players who are terrible.

I’ve played against premades before and won and lost. You can tell it’s a premade because they react in ways that could only be communicated in voice chat. What makes you guys think you’re against a ‘premade’ and not just a better team?

Because you see the same group of people in the same teams over and over, across hours/days/weeks/months, and oftentimes when one of them logs off they stop queueing altogether. Some people will also tell you straight up that they're queueing with 2, 3, or 4 players.

It's true that sometimes teams will indeed be "stacked" by ZOS, rather than through premading. But there are many other times that some players are going full-blown, tryhard premade, even if they're repeatedly getting matched against nothing but groups of 3 solo queued players.

Aurielle

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

I’m starting to think these ‘premades’ who dominate aren’t premades at all, just a really strong team. I solo queue and get all types; players under CP160, good pvpers and we dominate, high CP players who are terrible.

I’ve played against premades before and won and lost. You can tell it’s a premade because they react in ways that could only be communicated in voice chat. What makes you guys think you’re against a ‘premade’ and not just a better team?

What makes me think I’m playing against premades? Um... the fact that I often find myself playing against a team with the exact same four members in it over and over (and over, and over...) again. It’s not just a “feeling”, which is what you seem to be implying here.

OrdoHermetica

Aurielle wrote: »

Pretty much. Some guy in a packleader WW premade (which I had the great joy of encountering multiple times today) told me to “counter” the build when I got salty with him. YOU CANNOT COUNTER A WW PREMADE WHEN YOU ARE IN A PUG. What enjoyment do these guys get from roflstomping pugs? When did people stop caring about challenging PVP? There is NOTHING challenging about stacking a build in a coordinated premade, knowing that the vast majority of the people you’re playing against are solo queued and unoptimized as a team.

If ZOS doesn’t fix BGs soon, they’re going to bleed even more players. Separate the queues.

I'm 99.99% certain I know exactly which premade group you're talking about. I hate fighting them so, so much. I never just give up and stay in spawn like some people do, but I'll be honest: when I see I'm up against them in a PUG group, I just try to beat up the other team so I can squeak in at a distant second place. Because, yeah - there's literally nothing a PUG group can do against them or other premades like them, EVEN IF everyone in the PUG is actually pretty good and is running a solid, viable build, since taking down that kind of premade requires very specific preparation, planning, and coordination.

MaxJrFTW

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

I’m starting to think these ‘premades’ who dominate aren’t premades at all, just a really strong team. I solo queue and get all types; players under CP160, good pvpers and we dominate, high CP players who are terrible.

I’ve played against premades before and won and lost. You can tell it’s a premade because they react in ways that could only be communicated in voice chat. What makes you guys think you’re against a ‘premade’ and not just a better team?

I'm guessing the fact they're all from the same guild, or that you always see them queue together is just a coincidence...

Weesacs

Yes

Still no update from devs on this?

StormeReigns

Yes

Yes and no really.

Just remove Queue for specific battle ground from level 10-49. It'll removes Zoo/WW pack premades from spamming DM trying to trick the system to force random pug groups into their queue during lower levels, make it only accessible after level 50.