Why is it that only people who have never played magsorc say that magsorc is op?

Khenzy

I've been playing one forever.

Magicka Sorcs are incredibly overtuned right now.

NBrookus

My sorc was pretty damned strong pre-TG... and sorcs are stronger now.

Derra

NBrookus wrote: »

My sorc was pretty damned strong pre-TG... and sorcs are stronger now.

Really?

Personally i never felt stronger than with a winterborn skoria build (hehe proctatoe ahead of it´s time) with orsinium.

Not arguing that sorcs aren´t good now. But man those times were something completely different.

dreddurius

NBrookus

Derra wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

My sorc was pretty damned strong pre-TG... and sorcs are stronger now.

Really?

Personally i never felt stronger than with a winterborn skoria build (hehe proctatoe ahead of it´s time) with orsinium.

Not arguing that sorcs aren´t good now. But man those times were something completely different.

I think you have to play multiple classes to get a feel for how hard sorcs are hitting now on top of their high mitigation and superior mobility. It's like Barbie: that *** has everything.

It's been a gradual series of indirect buffs and gear options, and I wouldn't point at anything sorc and say "that needs to be nerfed." Sorcs should be tuned down some, but hopefully don't get hard with a nerfhammer.

Well except Encase, and then only because it's so powerful as a zergling Xv1 tool.

When Orsinium came out I thought about running winterborn with Nerien'eth, heavy armor and being a sorc disruption tank. I detoured back into mDK and haven't been back, so I never tried it, but I envisioned people draining their stamina and interrupting their rotations trying to dodge all the pillars and then Negating their healers.

Lord-Otto

Urghhhhh...
Sometimes I wish I could slap a sticky on the front page explaining sorc.

Damage: Check. They are supposed to deal high damage. It's telegraphed, however.

Defense: Spook story told by jelly dodgespammers. Yes, 1v1 shields are strong. But how could they not? You gotta sacrifice three slots and actions for them. If a shield was busted by a single light attack, how would you ever switch from defense to offense? Full-shieldmode is annoying, but just keep pressuring, they WILL expire or run out of magicka. Or just bring a buddy. Shields don't scale.
Also, light "armor" is non-existant.

Mobility: Myth from ages passed. Streak will not get you away from gapclosers. Major Expedition does not come free and you have to make a sacrifice to get it. Sprint and roll are very limited, as is sneak. Our anti-melee tool even locks us in place, so much for "mobility".

Derra

NBrookus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

My sorc was pretty damned strong pre-TG... and sorcs are stronger now.

Really?

Personally i never felt stronger than with a winterborn skoria build (hehe proctatoe ahead of it´s time) with orsinium.

Not arguing that sorcs aren´t good now. But man those times were something completely different.

I think you have to play multiple classes to get a feel for how hard sorcs are hitting now on top of their high mitigation and superior mobility. It's like Barbie: that *** has everything.

It's been a gradual series of indirect buffs and gear options, and I wouldn't point at anything sorc and say "that needs to be nerfed." Sorcs should be tuned down some, but hopefully don't get hard with a nerfhammer.

Well except Encase, and then only because it's so powerful as a zergling Xv1 tool.

When Orsinium came out I thought about running winterborn with Nerien'eth, heavy armor and being a sorc disruption tank. I detoured back into mDK and haven't been back, so I never tried it, but I envisioned people draining their stamina and interrupting their rotations trying to dodge all the pillars and then Negating their healers.

It´s been a while since i´ve played other classes in pvp admittedly.

However i can compare the relative strengh compared to other classes and players on my sorc - and in that regard i felt stronger and less limited with orsinium.

Mobility however - well if people get discouraged to chase you down after 3 streaks - that´s about the only case where i let mobility count as an argument. Anyone serious about chasing a sorc can now simply mount up. That happens a lot.

I think it´s very easy to determine where sorcs got too much love though:
1. curse (especially with multiple curses per target
2. 8% fire singletarget destro - and being the only class besides magblade that can make it work
3. 8% dmg increase on concussion - and being the only class with concussion in their normal rotation at all

Xeniph

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

@Xeniph throwing out a video of Faso in which he used the Hist Bark exploit, and claiming that as evidence of sorcs being OP doesn't help your argument.

@ all the Potatos saying shield stacking needs to be removed, you guys must be baked in more ways than one. Without shield stacking, sorc cannot heal period, as healing ward will never go off then (mageblades would get screwed too). Either healing ward or sorc as a class would need to be completely redesigned.

I wasn't using Faso's video to provide evidence that Sorc's are OP, rather an example of how shield refreshing works. And too well imo. I also believe it works too well on ALL shields in all lines, available to all classes. It just happens that Sorcs are able to utilize the mechanic better than others.

Oh, and lets not over dramatize the need for shield stacking in regards to healing. Crit Surge is quite effective with the changes to how Impen works now. Not to mention a couple well placed Streaks and Los work well.

And any mageblade worth their weight knows that one of the most effective ways to use healing ward is with Cloak and or LoS.

While I completely agree shield "layering" is completely stupid, I don't think it's the main cause of Sorc's being OP, only a contributor. I personally think allowing shields to be uncrittable and refreshed at will are the main causes.

I think if a shield had to fully drop, before it could be refreshed, like it used to be, would go a long way regarding balance. And lets not even mention this new change to Curse. Even some of the most well known Sorcs agree it's over the top.

NBrookus

Destro staves needed some love, but it did buff sorcs a lot.

Speaking of mounting up, I love how you can't mount because you are still in battle with a haunting curse on you, but the sorc chasing you can.

I was referring to battlefield mobility, not necessarily running away -- because spammable gap closers -- altho sorcs are definitely in a better place than templars or DKs forced into vamp just for Mist Form. Streak out of a destro ult even when rooted? Streak to and stun a player running away, or to an ally in trouble? Have another skill entirely which grants major expedition as well as damage mitigation? Bolt "Escape" may be a misnomer now but it's still a very powerful tool.

NightbladeMechanics

Because the design of sorc defense, shield stacking, requires finesse to get through. It's nearly impossible to burst straight through shields, so you have to run them out of either magicka or stamina, which is borderline impossible with cp, or bait them to drop their guards before you burst.

People call sorc op when they don't understand how it works, and also when they don't realize how resource intensive its shields can be at times.

Micah_Bayer

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I have a magsorc, and I know they're OP. Highest burst with insane survivability, and mobility. There's nothing to sacrifice as a magsorc, and that's what makes them OP.

What about stamina? They sacrifice that. And how is it that a mag blade can run full impen and do more dmg than any mag sorc could. One shield is off, dead sorc.

Strider_Roshin

In this game's current state magsorcs will

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I have a magsorc, and I know they're OP. Highest burst with insane survivability, and mobility. There's nothing to sacrifice as a magsorc, and that's what makes them OP.

What about stamina? They sacrifice that. And how is it that a mag blade can run full impen and do more dmg than any mag sorc could. One shield is off, dead sorc.

Yeah not much of a sacrifice lol. I have 41 points into tumbling, and I tri glyph my head, chest, and legs. Now combine that with the 6% you get from being a Dunmer, and it's cake to maintain resources. If you're running out of stamina it's a play style issue.

NightbladeMechanics

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I have a magsorc, and I know they're OP. Highest burst with insane survivability, and mobility. There's nothing to sacrifice as a magsorc, and that's what makes them OP.

What about stamina? They sacrifice that. And how is it that a mag blade can run full impen and do more dmg than any mag sorc could. One shield is off, dead sorc.

A little stam regen in the build solves stam problems, and the way Curse and Endless Fury fall into the same global cooldowns as frag and ult damage makes sorc burst higher than mageblade burst. Mageblades don't have delayed hits like those. Also mageblades wear full heavy to get tanky. Light armor mageblades deal more damage than heavy armor mageblades but less than sorcs, and are more easily killed than sorcs since they have only one shield.

NightbladeMechanics

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

In this game's current state magsorcs will

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I have a magsorc, and I know they're OP. Highest burst with insane survivability, and mobility. There's nothing to sacrifice as a magsorc, and that's what makes them OP.

What about stamina? They sacrifice that. And how is it that a mag blade can run full impen and do more dmg than any mag sorc could. One shield is off, dead sorc.

Yeah not much of a sacrifice lol. I have 41 points into tumbling, and I tri glyph my head, chest, and legs. Now combine that with the 6% you get from being a Dunmer, and it's cake to maintain resources. If you're running out of stamina it's a play style issue.

Do you need all that max stam and tumbling? Try using tristat food with a little regen from Amber Plasm, a regen glyph, or Serpent.

Minalan

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

In this game's current state magsorcs will

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I have a magsorc, and I know they're OP. Highest burst with insane survivability, and mobility. There's nothing to sacrifice as a magsorc, and that's what makes them OP.

What about stamina? They sacrifice that. And how is it that a mag blade can run full impen and do more dmg than any mag sorc could. One shield is off, dead sorc.

Yeah not much of a sacrifice lol. I have 41 points into tumbling, and I tri glyph my head, chest, and legs. Now combine that with the 6% you get from being a Dunmer, and it's cake to maintain resources. If you're running out of stamina it's a play style issue.

Correction, you sacrifice:

41 cp of magicka cost and regen for tumbling, which is significant.
1500 Magicka resources and damage, another 1000 if you use purple food.

You know how to build for survival though, kudos.

thankyourat

I'm actually starting to agree that magsorc is OP. After playing my magblade in light armor over the last 2 weeks Mag sorc just completely outclasses it in every way for open world pvp. Mag sorc is just feeling really easy to play. It just has very easily applied burst damage. And the stamina nerfs are actually bigger than I thought they were. Lol also cyrodiil is now like 70℅ mag sorc.

Mojomonkeyman

Why is it mostly wannabe sorcs with mediocre experience and talent claiming to know it all?

Reefo

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I have a magsorc, and I know they're OP. Highest burst with insane survivability, and mobility. There's nothing to sacrifice as a magsorc, and that's what makes them OP.

What about stamina? They sacrifice that. And how is it that a mag blade can run full impen and do more dmg than any mag sorc could. One shield is off, dead sorc.

a magblade do more damage than a magsorc? what?
show me this build. magblade needs a few buffs!

Valencer

Fighting multiple sorcs is basically a death sentence now unless you go heavy armour because youll be getting machine gunned by unblockabe undodgeable haunting curses.

No matter how hard you try, there's literally nothing you can do against that unless youre a shieldstacker or a templar

Integral1900

I have my simple sorc that gets pulled out when I feel really lazy, basically it's julianos and...err something, plus arcane jewelry and max damage/crit from anywhere I can get it.

Step one... buff with major sorcery
Step two... buff with that lightning form thing, can't remember the name
Step three... cast unstable wall of elements and liquid lightning aoe
Step four... hold down he easy attack button on the lightning staff

If it's a world boss I would cast hardened ward every now and then

It never runs flat and seems to be able to face tank it's way through dam near anything. It clears dungeons in half the time of any other alt.

Derra

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Because the design of sorc defense, shield stacking, requires finesse to get through. It's nearly impossible to burst straight through shields, so you have to run them out of either magicka or stamina, which is borderline impossible with cp, or bait them to drop their guards before you burst.

People call sorc op when they don't understand how it works, and also when they don't realize how resource intensive its shields can be at times.

Probably closest to how i feel personally about them.

However i do think personally it´s requires too little effort on a sorc to create near impenetrable defense for an extended period of time with very little playerinput.
But that´s not any different for a block build and while those most of the time can´t kill you - they can keep everyone around them alive for example.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

In this game's current state magsorcs will

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I have a magsorc, and I know they're OP. Highest burst with insane survivability, and mobility. There's nothing to sacrifice as a magsorc, and that's what makes them OP.

What about stamina? They sacrifice that. And how is it that a mag blade can run full impen and do more dmg than any mag sorc could. One shield is off, dead sorc.

Yeah not much of a sacrifice lol. I have 41 points into tumbling, and I tri glyph my head, chest, and legs. Now combine that with the 6% you get from being a Dunmer, and it's cake to maintain resources. If you're running out of stamina it's a play style issue.

It´s true they have very high burst - but it´s 100% telegraphed. If you get hit unprepared it´s a playstyle issue. I still think of magsorc burst as a potatoebuster. You have to build differently to beat experienced players - as burst won´t kill if you did not enter the fight with an advantage (or you´re one of those guys running dueling builds in a zerg and then try to chase down open field solo players to find nice 1v1s - that´s the newest trend i´ve noticed).

However two or three sorcs attacking you? Yeah goodbye. Refreshing curse is insane in that scenario.

Aedaryl

Now the sorc damage is equal to the heavy armor damage, it's a nice thing.

OP things that need a nerf or a fix :

---> The stack of the same curse is stupid, remove that, Only deadric pray and haunting curse should stack once.

---> Annulment and hardened ward stack, this is why noob feel strong on a magsorc, this is an easy and OP defense mode.

---> The hard way to target a sorc using pets, this need a fix.

But really, sorc is not stronger than other.

mSorc =heavy stam sorc = heavy stamblade = heavy mDk = heavy stam dk > heavy mag and stamplar > magblade > medium gear on all classes.

Derra

DK is so terrible atm

I´d rather have anything but a DK in my grp tbh.

Hexys

Imagine if we could use proximity detonation as single target, or a magicka dawnbreaker, maybe even 20 second shields. Or think about being able to streak without a fatigue while you can direct your streak with a light attack while rooted. OR maybe even keep your momentum while streaking?

Lord-Otto

Hexys wrote: »

Imagine if we could use proximity detonation as single target, or a magicka dawnbreaker, maybe even 20 second shields. Or think about being able to streak without a fatigue while you can direct your streak with a light attack while rooted. OR maybe even keep your momentum while streaking?

Daaad? Did the Wizard get the Princess in the end?
C=

Minalan

Hexys wrote: »

Imagine if we could use proximity detonation as single target, or a magicka dawnbreaker, maybe even 20 second shields. Or think about being able to streak without a fatigue while you can direct your streak with a light attack while rooted. OR maybe even keep your momentum while streaking?

Or if trapping webs was a spammable single target Magicka ability.

Or if power surge healed us for a percentage of critical hit damage and we weren't tied to a resto staff.

Of if Magicka costs were 10% lower across the board.

Or if crushing shock did 10% more damage.

Or if force pulse had a 40% chance to proc an elemental effect?