Macros and PvP

yodased

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Only way you can enforce this is big data. Basically you plot out every keypress over time from every player, then you trend graph it.

You identify the "outliers" that stand out above the rest, either their keypresses are exactly the same every time with 0 change in time, or you have the same exact amount of time for a certain combination of presses over time.

No way they will do this. It's just not feasible and it would require a ton of overhead and manpower.

How do the fix it? Do what every other MMO in history has done and put skills on Cool Downs, or do not allow animations to be canceled and still work.

This will not work. Latency itself is a variable that cannot be accounted for properly. The latency is both our connection to the server and served congestion itself which is sometimes high in cyrodiil.

Additionally, a good player will be fairly consistent with the same rotation.

fairly consistent is not exactly the same over time, and I also said it won't work because of the overhead, they would have to fix too many things first.

Thrasher91604

I suggest you watch Fengrush's macroslice video #2 to see how a gap closer animation delay can cause all these skills to be postponed to hit at the same time. It looks like a macro, but isn't necessarily. It's a bug (or multiples) in the game.

Berenhir

1. Meet to duel on an average evening somewhere not too far away from cyros hotspots.
2. Record the duel, both of you.
3. Sync the videos, based on the real world time.
4. Laugh/Cry/Rage.
5. Quit PVP.

hyttemaierb16_ESO

Thornen wrote: »

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

So yesterday i were enjoying a little pvp, and generaly had a good time, then i meet this guy, within the timespan of 2 seconds, he did a poison injection, then weaponswap, the 2 handed charge, then a light attack (huh?) then surprice attack, and then executioner (and yes i made sure to read the death log, it was all one person) that is what 5 actions within 2 seconds (including a weapon swap, and we know there is normaly a little delay in weapon swapping), that felt like automated combat to me.

Dont get me wrong here, im not crying about i died in pvp (i do that alot) but is macroing allowed in this game? (realy would be nice, with a dev to confirm this) cause if it is, ill set up some macros aswell.

Guys help me here, is it allowed? should it be allowed, are you guys using macros?

That sounds pretty average for a 2 second window, hell even with my Aus ping of 250ms I can do that without breaking a sweat.

Anyway anything that can be done with a macro can also be done without.

The thing is the weapon switch itself, takes up one second, so you can fire 4 abilities + a light attack in one second? without using a macro? can you tell me how that is done?

hyttemaierb16_ESO

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I love when I stampede (crit rush) a enemy but I'm still in the animation so I can queue up a bunch of other attacks and watch them all collide at once.
Skip to 0:39 http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Maxwell/video/20902700

Thank you for showing that, we might have the solution right there, i believe that is not intended by the devs.

hyttemaierb16_ESO

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

I suggest you watch Fengrush's macroslice video #2 to see how a gap closer animation delay can cause all these skills to be postponed to hit at the same time. It looks like a macro, but isn't necessarily. It's a bug (or multiples) in the game.

Arent bug abusing considered an exploit?

Thrasher91604

There are so many bugs in this game, I think it's a lost cause personally. But yes, I'd consider it an exploit.

But since ZoS has been aware of this bug forever, and has done nothing to fix it, it seems like they don't care, which makes others more inclined to abuse it, right or wrong.

hyttemaierb16_ESO

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

There are so many bugs in this game, I think it's a lost cause personally. But yes, I'd consider it an exploit.

But since ZoS has been aware of this bug forever, and has done nothing to fix it, it seems like they don't care, which makes others more inclined to abuse it, right or wrong.

Thanks a bunch for clearing this up for me, now that i watched the video, i see that was what hit me :-D guess ill be playing path of exile's new season instead, i cant enjoy pvp where exploiting is a "thing".

Thrasher91604

It can be very frustrating. For what it's worth, the groups I play with take a special pleasure in finding exploiters and annihilating them, since ZoS doesn't police its game.

zyk

It is important to recognize that unless another form of cheating is being used in conjunction with macros, anything one can do with a macro can also be done manually.

So don't assume everyone who weaves or cancels is using macros.

With that said, I think it's absurd when people say macros are useless in ESO. Any user who is actually technically inclined and is saying this is full of it. A macro may not be beneficial in every scenario/build, but there are definitely situations when they can be beneficial.

I think the greatest benefit is possibly less fatigue. I dislike cancelling because it is not ergonomic and accelerates fatigue. Anyone who games a lot is at risk of an RSI and cancelling exacerbates this. It is a great advantage to the cheaters who use macros to mitigate this IMO.

rotaugen454

zyk wrote: »

It is important to recognize that unless another form of cheating is being used in conjunction with macros, anything one can do with a macro can also be done manually.

So don't assume everyone who weaves or cancels is using macros.

With that said, I think it's absurd when people say macros are useless in ESO. Any user who is actually technically inclined and is saying this is full of it. A macro may not be beneficial in every scenario/build, but there are definitely situations when they can be beneficial.

I think the greatest benefit is possibly less fatigue. I dislike cancelling because it is not ergonomic and accelerates fatigue. Anyone who games a lot is at risk of an RSI and cancelling exacerbates this. It is a great advantage to the cheaters who use macros to mitigate this IMO.

I can see this point, as I get to the verge of carpel tunnel from ability/light attack weaving after a while.

DHale

In the time it took you to write the post you could have learned to animation cancel. It is not going away using marcos in lag results in getting rekt. although the lag is the usual culprit of death learning animation cancelling is critical for success in this game. Players that animation cancel and do it well are amongst the best players in the game period. for those that think cool down are the answer is no... hell no. We are not going to take steps back in this game. Combat is awesome in the game minus lag its not a child's game. Classic learn to play issue.

hyttemaierb16_ESO

DHale wrote: »

In the time it took you to write the post you could have learned to animation cancel. It is not going away using marcos in lag results in getting rekt. although the lag is the usual culprit of death learning animation cancelling is critical for success in this game. Players that animation cancel and do it well are amongst the best players in the game period. for those that think cool down are the answer is no... hell no. We are not going to take steps back in this game. Combat is awesome in the game minus lag its not a child's game. Classic learn to play issue.

Why would i use my time to learn to exploit? abusing bugs and exploits are kinda the same thing as cheating, it might be for someone to enjoy, but not me :-D hence why the devs made animations in the first place, and no it is not for you to learn ways to bypass it :-D

Most_Awesome

I *** hate the animation cancelling in this game (I know this thread is about marcro's) but yesterday in Cyro open world fight and boom a NB appears next to me, so I cast Dark Flare and mid flight he opens up with heavy attack and incap strike I instantly cc break and bam I die, he even has the time to block my *** flare.

Blah blah blah L2P issue BUT I DIED IN 3 SECONDS.......3 *** SECONDS DO YOU NOT KNOW WHO I AM!

http://imgur.com/a/UfeGn

DHale

Animation cancelling has never been nor will ever be an exploit or a bug. I have have played since April 2014 it was part of the game then and will be there when i one day quit..... long time distant future. So we are very clear ALL of the QA team for ESO/ZOS animation cancel VERY well.

Avenias

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

First, a skilled player can get more attacks in faster than one using a macro.

Lol, well we should be glad that this guy has no clue of macros and isnt using one. Thanks for the confirmation!

hyttemaierb16_ESO

DHale wrote: »

Animation cancelling has never been nor will ever be an exploit or a bug. I have have played since April 2014 it was part of the game then and will be there when i one day quit..... long time distant future. So we are very clear ALL of the QA team for ESO/ZOS animation cancel VERY well.

Lol common listen to what you wrote mate, "Animation cancelling" take a good look at the word, and understand its meaning, now think about it, and say its intended

DHale

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Animation cancelling has never been nor will ever be an exploit or a bug. I have have played since April 2014 it was part of the game then and will be there when i one day quit..... long time distant future. So we are very clear ALL of the QA team for ESO/ZOS animation cancel VERY well.

Lol common listen to what you wrote mate, "Animation cancelling" take a good look at the word, and understand its meaning, now think about it, and say its intended

it does not matter whether its intended or not it it is a part of the game play... it not going away and you would be foolish to not use it and will NEVER compete with those that do it well. I really do not care if you choose to do it or not. It does not hurt me or my game play and you will only be helping ppl get AP namely players on other factions. They are very happy you will not be learning to animation cancel.

Miszou

Remember kids, the only real skill in PvP is being able to wreck your opponent with animation cancelling before they have time to react.

Only scrubs actually bother to "fight" when their animation cancelled gank-burst fails to kill.

Ain't no-one got time for a fair fight in cyrodiil.

hyttemaierb16_ESO

DHale wrote: »

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Animation cancelling has never been nor will ever be an exploit or a bug. I have have played since April 2014 it was part of the game then and will be there when i one day quit..... long time distant future. So we are very clear ALL of the QA team for ESO/ZOS animation cancel VERY well.

Lol common listen to what you wrote mate, "Animation cancelling" take a good look at the word, and understand its meaning, now think about it, and say its intended

it does not matter whether its intended or not it it is a part of the game play... it not going away and you would be foolish to not use it and will NEVER compete with those that do it well. I really do not care if you choose to do it or not. It does not hurt me or my game play and you will only be helping ppl get AP namely players on other factions. They are very happy you will not be learning to animation cancel.

You are so very right sir, i will NEVER compete, using unintended game mechanics, maby its just me that think its silly, but weaving or animation canceling, was not what killed me, there would have been more light attacks on my death cap, but now im curious, tell me your animation canceling rotation.

phairdon

macro slice bug? As its been named on one stream. All skills fire off at the same time for whatever reason.
Should state too, that the macro slice bug is just the name given. The bug itself is not caused by a macro.

hyttemaierb16_ESO

phairdon wrote: »

macro slice bug? As its been named on one stream. All skills fire off at the same time for whatever reason.

I believe that was what hit me yes

DHale

you are actually not cancelling abilities most of the time. With spear shards I weapon swap with dawn breaker i hit block right after and it cancels the animation makes it instant. with a bow i charge up a heavy attack and hit poison injection and they go off one after the other. Volley gets a weapon swap. There are five main way to cancel maybe more. with dizzy swing start a heavy attack then when the character puts his arm back you basically see the toon jerk but both attacks go off in the time to get one out using one then the other. Lefty Lucy, Parfax, Deltia, and Lifoa all have tutorials. Some of the best animation cancelers (no particular order)on NA PC Sypher, Yoyui, German, Kodi, Jules, Chief, Essa, Fengrush. Yes many are streamers and that was why people thought they would be good at streaming and making you tube videos.

Milvan

I have seen some people doing some nasty stuff with macros, like casting 5~ abilities (including light atacks) instantly. ZOS definetely should check on that, it demotives to participate on PVP.

What can we do with a company that let their streammers uses exploits unpunished?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBSRbGTQY-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohJ91nRKFe0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG1LEDmyIZk

snejremllov

Stop calling every player that uses animation cancelling a "macro exploiter". Just because you don't understand/can't be bothered to learn how to effectively use it. 5 attacks in 2 seconds is easily possible. The death recaps you linked don't even include bash, which is another action with its independent global cool down and can therefore be used to cancel a light attack/skill. A good player can (in a low ping situation) easily fire: light attack - skill - bash - ultimate within one second. Because these actions all cancel each other out and have their own global cool down.
As @DHale said, animation cancelling exists and is available to everybody and there's no way they're removing it either because playing out every single animation completely will result in terribly slow and sluggish combat.
Animation cancelling adds an additional layer of skill to the combat. If you're good at it and use it properly, your average damage output will increase. If you don't, you're not useless either, but you have no right to complain about players who invested time to learn how to cancel properly.

hyttemaierb16_ESO

snejremllov wrote: »

Stop calling every player that uses animation cancelling a "macro exploiter". Just because you don't understand/can't be bothered to learn how to effectively use it. 5 attacks in 2 seconds is easily possible. The death recaps you linked don't even include bash, which is another action with its independent global cool down and can therefore be used to cancel a light attack/skill. A good player can (in a low ping situation) easily fire: light attack - skill - bash - ultimate within one second. Because these actions all cancel each other out and have their own global cool down.
As @DHale said, animation cancelling exists and is available to everybody and there's no way they're removing it either because playing out every single animation completely will result in terribly slow and sluggish combat.
Animation cancelling adds an additional layer of skill to the combat. If you're good at it and use it properly, your average damage output will increase. If you don't, you're not useless either, but you have no right to complain about players who invested time to learn how to cancel properly.

Im confused, i dident link any death recaps? someone else did, while we were debating, anyway im asuming you dident read all the posts, and thats fair :-D what killed me, was most likely not animation canceling, the macro slice bug killed me, if thats not an exploit, i dont know even where to begin? in my PERSONAL opinion, i see animation canceling as bug abusing/exploiting a game mechanic, you dont have to agree with me on that, but can we at least agree on, that when they made this game, they made combat animations for a reason?

hyttemaierb16_ESO

Milvan wrote: »

I have seen some people doing some nasty stuff with macros, like casting 5~ abilities (including light atacks) instantly. ZOS definetely should check on that, it demotives to participate on PVP.

What can we do with a company that let their streammers uses exploits unpunished?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBSRbGTQY-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohJ91nRKFe0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG1LEDmyIZk

Milvan i completely agree with you on that, its clear in the videos you linked that this guy is intentionaly queuing up attacks while he is in the "air".

ColoursYouHave

What region/platform are you on OP? If you're PC NA I can teach you how to animation cancel like a pro in no time. And if you plan to keep playing this game, I'd really recommend learning it, because regardless of your opinion on it, the developers have already said it is not an exploit. Not only that, but the reason animation canceling exists is because it is deeply embedded in the way the entire combat system was designed, meaning removing it would require them to completely redesign the way combat works in this game. While the developers did not explicitly intend for animation canceling to be a thing, it is merely an emergent property of the core combat mechanics they created.

Seriously though, send me a message if you want to learn animation canceling. You'll see that it is actually pretty easy, and really not as scary as people make it out to be.

ColoursYouHave

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

I have seen some people doing some nasty stuff with macros, like casting 5~ abilities (including light atacks) instantly. ZOS definetely should check on that, it demotives to participate on PVP.

What can we do with a company that let their streammers uses exploits unpunished?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBSRbGTQY-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohJ91nRKFe0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG1LEDmyIZk

Milvan i completely agree with you on that, its clear in the videos you linked that this guy is intentionaly queuing up attacks while he is in the "air".

Also, it is impossible to cast 5 abilities instantly with macros. Is there a cheat out there that does allow you to do that? Maybe, but it has absolutely nothing to do with macros. And despite being called "macroslice", that has nothing to do with macros either. Its a bug that happens when you get stuck in a charge, delaying any skill you cast while stuck in the animation until after the animation ends. It isn't really something people exploit (at least I'm unaware of any way to consistently replicate it), but is more of a random thing that happens from time to time due to the broken gap closers.

Thrasher91604

Well when you get killed by the same guy a few times with the same series of attacks in just one second, you can be sure that guy is intentionally exploiting this bug. And yes this has happened to me. Stop making excuses for these cheaters.