Macros and PvP

hyttemaierb16_ESO

So yesterday i were enjoying a little pvp, and generaly had a good time, then i meet this guy, within the timespan of 2 seconds, he did a poison injection, then weaponswap, the 2 handed charge, then a light attack (huh?) then surprice attack, and then executioner (and yes i made sure to read the death log, it was all one person) that is what 5 actions within 2 seconds (including a weapon swap, and we know there is normaly a little delay in weapon swapping), that felt like automated combat to me.

Dont get me wrong here, im not crying about i died in pvp (i do that alot) but is macroing allowed in this game? (realy would be nice, with a dev to confirm this) cause if it is, ill set up some macros aswell.

Guys help me here, is it allowed? should it be allowed, are you guys using macros?

rotaugen454

Here it is again, with the Global Cooldown vs too many actions in too short a time period. From what I hear, it has to be lag that makes everything hit at once, as you can't do this many actions in such a short time period.

Arthg

Welcome to a world of pain.

idk

First, a skilled player can get more attacks in faster than one using a macro.

Second, there are obvious tells of macos when a skill in the middle of the script cannot complete a player ends up in an odd position and stuck until they clear it out.

I would expext there are players that use macros but they would generally not be as effective especially since we do not have a true GCD.

Asmael

Abilities work on their own GCD, while light / heavy attacks and weapon swap have their own. The poison injection and crit rush should have landed pretty much at the same time, making the fight effectively 2 seconds, based on the first hit landed on you.

It is possible due to action priority to almost instantly use a bow light attack, a poison injection and cancel the animation of the poison injection with a weapon swap (it needs to be in this order though).

It doesn't require macros and animation cancelling is allowed. This is very possible "by hand" but requires some practice.

The macros are not allowed (as already stated a thousand times in different threads, CBA searching), but that doesn't mean people would not use them.

DurzoBlint13

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

So yesterday i were enjoying a little pvp, and generaly had a good time, then i meet this guy, within the timespan of 2 seconds, he did a poison injection, then weaponswap, the 2 handed charge, then a light attack (huh?) then surprice attack, and then executioner (and yes i made sure to read the death log, it was all one person) that is what 5 actions within 2 seconds (including a weapon swap, and we know there is normaly a little delay in weapon swapping), that felt like automated combat to me.

Dont get me wrong here, im not crying about i died in pvp (i do that alot) but is macroing allowed in this game? (realy would be nice, with a dev to confirm this) cause if it is, ill set up some macros aswell.

Guys help me here, is it allowed? should it be allowed, are you guys using macros?

I an into this exact same thing last night. I was fighting one guy and his NB buddy comes up behind me and kills me. Death recap said Poison Injct, Dizzying Swing, Poison Injct, Dizzying Swing, Lethal Arrow. No lag was noticeable while I was fighting yet I do not see how he could do that many actions in that short of a time frame....and weapon swap on top of that. He had to have made them all land at the same time since he was the only name on the recap. The guy I was actually fighting was hitting me yet his name did not show up at all. I know about the GCD but it seems like there is a way around it.

Dark_Aether

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

So yesterday i were enjoying a little pvp, and generaly had a good time, then i meet this guy, within the timespan of 2 seconds, he did a poison injection, then weaponswap, the 2 handed charge, then a light attack (huh?) then surprice attack, and then executioner (and yes i made sure to read the death log, it was all one person) that is what 5 actions within 2 seconds (including a weapon swap, and we know there is normaly a little delay in weapon swapping), that felt like automated combat to me.

Dont get me wrong here, im not crying about i died in pvp (i do that alot) but is macroing allowed in this game? (realy would be nice, with a dev to confirm this) cause if it is, ill set up some macros aswell.

Guys help me here, is it allowed? should it be allowed, are you guys using macros?

That is like animation cancelling 101: charge heavy attack from stealth, poison injection (those two land together) weapon swap, gap close, light attack, spammable skill, light attack, execute; and it works on any class with 2h and bow, all in 2-3 sec.

mtwiggz

GBC is a thing. The only real macros you'd run into on a day to day basis are;

Skill + Light Attack
Skill + Heavy Attack
Light Attack + Skill + Bash
Heavy Attack + Skill + Bash

As all of those skills have separate GBC from each other which makes using a macro for them quiet flawless. You'll notice some players using macros like this in YouTube videos or while streaming. It's actually quite obvious.

One could argue that this would give someone with a macro an advantage over someone pressing the keys themselves. As the macro user would press 'one' key and do 2-3 'attacks' while the non-macro user would have to press all 2-3 keys. These macros don't work well in high latency situations and will probably not give any kind of noticeable advantage, as long as the non-macro user has decent dexterity and knows when in the animation to press certain keys.

All in all macros are against the ToS. Yet they really do not give much of an advantage at all. Skills that by-pass GCD due to terrible coding and broken mechanics are a completely separate issue, and yes, they do exist.

hyttemaierb16_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

First, a skilled player can get more attacks in faster than one using a macro.

Second, there are obvious tells of macos when a skill in the middle of the script cannot complete a player ends up in an odd position and stuck until they clear it out.

I would expext there are players that use macros but they would generally not be as effective especially since we do not have a true GCD.

Take a look on this guys video, it clearly shows how fast macros is, especialy with weapon swap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZa4c-WZoE

WhoThenNow7

What is a "macro"?

Ackwalan

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Here it is again, with the Global Cooldown vs too many actions in too short a time period. From what I hear, it has to be lag that makes everything hit at once, as you can't do this many actions in such a short time period.

Just stop. Everybody knows there are cheaters out there, defending them only make you look like a cheater.

Robbmrp

Excellent work on that video as it clearly shows the advantage that people can get using gaming devices.

This is a huge grey area here as this isn't the typical Macro, its a programmable feature in a gaming mouse. Which is exactly why people buy these in the first place. I could have thought I read someplace that anything that changes something from pressing multiple buttons into 1 button is against the rules for ESO but couldn't find it in the TOS.

With all the programmable keyboards and mice out there that can take these basic skills in the game, skill cast, weapon swap and also light attacks and combine them into a one button press IMO shouldn't be allowed. This is the basic function of a macro, to perform multiple things with minimal work. I believe this isn't how Zenimax envisioned the game would be played. If it was after all, why don't we have the ability to create these within the game itself instead of a 3rd party device.

I have a Logitech G510 Keyboard with programmable keys yet I haven't made these types of combos on them as I thought they were a clear violation of the TOS. I use a trackball mouse with 4 buttons on it and have skills mapped to those buttons. Just 1 skill so it's the same as if I had hit the actual key. It's an old Microsoft Trackball without programmable macro software.

We really need Zenimax to comment on their stance of these devices and let people know what is acceptable for the game. There are tons of people using these to create multiple combinations just by pressing 1 button.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom who can answer this question regarding the use of programmable input devices that are being used to combo a bunch of skills into a 1 button press? If Zenimax has already, please add a link to that post here.

This is why people are claiming macro's are rampant in PVP. These gaming devices allow multiple combinations to be pulled of by a single button press which cannot be done with a normal keyboard/mouse.

rotaugen454

Ackwalan wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Here it is again, with the Global Cooldown vs too many actions in too short a time period. From what I hear, it has to be lag that makes everything hit at once, as you can't do this many actions in such a short time period.

Just stop. Everybody knows there are cheaters out there, defending them only make you look like a cheater.

I'm not saying there aren't people using macros, I am saying it won't let you use 5 abilities in 2 seconds. It does let you fire off a combo and not hit the wrong button.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Ackwalan wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Here it is again, with the Global Cooldown vs too many actions in too short a time period. From what I hear, it has to be lag that makes everything hit at once, as you can't do this many actions in such a short time period.

Just stop. Everybody knows there are cheaters out there, defending them only make you look like a cheater.

I dont disagree there are cheaters. But using a simple macro does not bypass the gcd. It may make it easier to take advantage of whatever is that may be wrong, but Since no one post here is how i am cheating videos we dont really know.

And that is what people try to point out in these threads. They arent saying people arent cheating. They are saying macros themselves dont hack the game and do impossible things.

And there really can not be a rule that says anything that turns one button pushes into multiple button pushes is breaking the rules, because that makes a crap ton of addons breaking the rules.

yodased

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Here it is again, with the Global Cooldown vs too many actions in too short a time period. From what I hear, it has to be lag that makes everything hit at once, as you can't do this many actions in such a short time period.

Just stop. Everybody knows there are cheaters out there, defending them only make you look like a cheater.

I dont disagree there are cheaters. But using a simple macro does not bypass the gcd. It may make it easier to take advantage of whatever is that may be wrong, but Since no one post here is how i am cheating videos we dont really know.

And that is what people try to point out in these threads. They arent saying people arent cheating. They are saying macros themselves dont hack the game and do impossible things.

And there really can not be a rule that says anything that turns one button pushes into multiple button pushes is breaking the rules, because that makes a crap ton of addons breaking the rules.

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

As for your "they would addons that break TOS"

They do break TOS, ZOS just chooses to not enforce it:

Waiver.
The failure of ZeniMax to exercise or enforce any right or provision of these Terms of Service will not constitute waiver of such right or provision. Any waiver of any provision of these Terms of Service will be effective only if expressly acknowledged in a writing signed by ZeniMax.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

yodased wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Here it is again, with the Global Cooldown vs too many actions in too short a time period. From what I hear, it has to be lag that makes everything hit at once, as you can't do this many actions in such a short time period.

Just stop. Everybody knows there are cheaters out there, defending them only make you look like a cheater.

I dont disagree there are cheaters. But using a simple macro does not bypass the gcd. It may make it easier to take advantage of whatever is that may be wrong, but Since no one post here is how i am cheating videos we dont really know.

And that is what people try to point out in these threads. They arent saying people arent cheating. They are saying macros themselves dont hack the game and do impossible things.

And there really can not be a rule that says anything that turns one button pushes into multiple button pushes is breaking the rules, because that makes a crap ton of addons breaking the rules.

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

As for your "they would addons that break TOS"

They do break TOS, ZOS just chooses to not enforce it:

Waiver.
The failure of ZeniMax to exercise or enforce any right or provision of these Terms of Service will not constitute waiver of such right or provision. Any waiver of any provision of these Terms of Service will be effective only if expressly acknowledged in a writing signed by ZeniMax.

Have they said macros are not authorized? Or those addons?

yodased

Yes multiple times

vyndral13preub18_ESO

yodased wrote: »

Yes multiple times

I guess i missed those post, link?

Thornen

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

So yesterday i were enjoying a little pvp, and generaly had a good time, then i meet this guy, within the timespan of 2 seconds, he did a poison injection, then weaponswap, the 2 handed charge, then a light attack (huh?) then surprice attack, and then executioner (and yes i made sure to read the death log, it was all one person) that is what 5 actions within 2 seconds (including a weapon swap, and we know there is normaly a little delay in weapon swapping), that felt like automated combat to me.

Dont get me wrong here, im not crying about i died in pvp (i do that alot) but is macroing allowed in this game? (realy would be nice, with a dev to confirm this) cause if it is, ill set up some macros aswell.

Guys help me here, is it allowed? should it be allowed, are you guys using macros?

That sounds pretty average for a 2 second window, hell even with my Aus ping of 250ms I can do that without breaking a sweat.

Anyway anything that can be done with a macro can also be done without.

yttoks

Macros just don't work, especially in PvP. Lag kills macros. Even with a little practice, a player can increase whatever DPS they could achieve with a macro by doing it manually, at least on average.

It's just not a thing, people playing out of their league because of macros. The more intricate the combo, the less reliably it works with macros. A very good player would never use macros to execute combos. Their DPS would drop, and they would be less able to react to the other player. Some people just hate to get beat, and so it must be a macro.

I highly recommend that all my opponents use macros. I hereby give them permission.

I suck, and I need every advantage I can get!

Rohamad_Ali

Like video said , how can ZOS enforce this . Has anyone even heard of enforcement of this ?

idk

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

First, a skilled player can get more attacks in faster than one using a macro.

Second, there are obvious tells of macos when a skill in the middle of the script cannot complete a player ends up in an odd position and stuck until they clear it out.

I would expext there are players that use macros but they would generally not be as effective especially since we do not have a true GCD.

Take a look on this guys video, it clearly shows how fast macros is, especialy with weapon swap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZa4c-WZoE

Watched almost all of it and didn't see anything special. Bar swap is part of animation canceling. With good keybindings one do it extreemly fast by hand.

I used to show guildies how fast it worked by going from my bow to DW, perform a whirlwind and swap back to bow. Only the whirlwind made it obvious I was DW on the other bar. Macros not needed and macros can easily mess up the day of someone actually using them.

Of all the threads I've seen where players have complained that someone used a macro to kill them, none offered information that made a strong argument that macros were actually used.

Edit: a good player doesn't need to use macros as they can do it all manually. An average player will probably get themselves kill often by trying to use a macro. The number of players using macros is lower the some think. The number of players better than I am is a large number.

yodased

Only way you can enforce this is big data. Basically you plot out every keypress over time from every player, then you trend graph it.

You identify the "outliers" that stand out above the rest, either their keypresses are exactly the same every time with 0 change in time, or you have the same exact amount of time for a certain combination of presses over time.

No way they will do this. It's just not feasible and it would require a ton of overhead and manpower.

How do the fix it? Do what every other MMO in history has done and put skills on Cool Downs, or do not allow animations to be canceled and still work.

cjthibs

yodased wrote: »

How do the fix it? Do what every other MMO in history has done and put skills on Cool Downs, or do not allow animations to be canceled and still work.

This...this...and this.

idk

yodased wrote: »

Only way you can enforce this is big data. Basically you plot out every keypress over time from every player, then you trend graph it.

You identify the "outliers" that stand out above the rest, either their keypresses are exactly the same every time with 0 change in time, or you have the same exact amount of time for a certain combination of presses over time.

No way they will do this. It's just not feasible and it would require a ton of overhead and manpower.

How do the fix it? Do what every other MMO in history has done and put skills on Cool Downs, or do not allow animations to be canceled and still work.

This will not work. Latency itself is a variable that cannot be accounted for properly. The latency is both our connection to the server and served congestion itself which is sometimes high in cyrodiil.

Additionally, a good player will be fairly consistent with the same rotation.

Rohamad_Ali

There is a way to tell on video . When macros are being used , the ability bar will flash white on all abilities from too many commands used at once as seen in every macro video .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNXhSbSoWhU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jHatBUKepS4

When keys are pressed normal and even animation cancelled , you can still see the key presses . Like here .



[SNIP]


EDITED FOR PROFANITY

Robbmrp

cjthibs wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

How do the fix it? Do what every other MMO in history has done and put skills on Cool Downs, or do not allow animations to be canceled and still work.

This...this...and this.

Exactly. They should setup the game so that any skill cast after another doesn't play out until all animations have completed on the first. Then your not going to have this 1+2+3+4 shot combo with an instant death recap and only see the last skill.

Make this game rely more on actual skill(movement,sustain,blocking, etc) than whom ever can program a gaming mouse to have the most skills attached to one I win button....

Alcast

hyttemaierb16_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

First, a skilled player can get more attacks in faster than one using a macro.

Second, there are obvious tells of macos when a skill in the middle of the script cannot complete a player ends up in an odd position and stuck until they clear it out.

I would expext there are players that use macros but they would generally not be as effective especially since we do not have a true GCD.

Take a look on this guys video, it clearly shows how fast macros is, especialy with weapon swap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZa4c-WZoE

this video is 2 years old, they changed animation canceling entirely in thieves guild or dark brotherhood. It is way slower now

MaxwellC

I love when I stampede (crit rush) a enemy but I'm still in the animation so I can queue up a bunch of other attacks and watch them all collide at once.
Skip to 0:39 http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Maxwell/video/20902700

Mx13

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

There is a way to tell on video . When macros are being used , the ability bar will flash white on all abilities from too many commands used at once as seen in every macro video .

No, thats an add-on, dont remember wich one tho.

LUI extended iirc.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

yodased wrote: »

Only way you can enforce this is big data. Basically you plot out every keypress over time from every player, then you trend graph it.

You identify the "outliers" that stand out above the rest, either their keypresses are exactly the same every time with 0 change in time, or you have the same exact amount of time for a certain combination of presses over time.

No way they will do this. It's just not feasible and it would require a ton of overhead and manpower.

How do the fix it? Do what every other MMO in history has done and put skills on Cool Downs, or do not allow animations to be canceled and still work.

That actually isnt true. Not every other mmo in history uses cooldowns to govern skills. There are several that dont. The one that pops to mind right away being GW2. While some skills do have a cooldown several dont.