[VIDEO] Pact Milita vs Vehemence for the Battle of White Fall Mountain

Icy

NACtron wrote: »

I believe numbers is something guilds (especially newer guilds with less experience) that if available should be used to stay competitive and play the map. This has benefits for both the pugs and the elite guilds that get massive laggy plates of AP given to them from time to time. It takes time to refine a group to the point where they don't need numbers to wipe elite groups or groups of regular players their size. Numbers provide safety to the learn the games meta and not rage quit due to all of the steam rolling elite guilds do to pugs.

Map control is the key to winning the campaign as a whole. Mostly, we felt we were fighting DC only this campaign. We'd love AD to make a strong push here as well (or I would).

I see Pact (and LFG) as performing a vital roll to the health of EP in PvP. What other group is happy to take people who are new to PvP (or even new to MMOs) and show them the way of the joy of PvP? We have the elite groups, but if you're a beginner, that's not somewhere you can begin.

If you listen in TS, bring siege, stay-on-crown (but not too tight) you have a place in my raid (and in any general Pact raid). I want to share the joy of PvP with everyone.

And ultimately, that's why I shared that video in the first place, because I wanted to show everyone the shear FUN we were having. It wouldn't have mattered if VE wiped us every single time (well, maybe a little bit) because we were all having a BLAST.

And for me, that's what PvP is about. And I want to share that with as many people as possible.

MaximillianDiE

Jules wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Put down the crack pipe mate - you wouldn't even survive our initial burst if that video is anything to go by. It would be a 5 second fight if K-Hole were hypothetically to stack with VE to fight your two stacked semi pug warbands on even terms. Thanks for the laughs though, this thread just keeps on delivering.

This is a big reason why ESO PVP is lame. Instead of having a rivalry with a guild of similar ability like Haxus, guilds like Khole seem to spend most of their time looking for lesser competition. Even on the forums, you have to come here and wave around your epeen in what had been a nice, civil thread.

In every single game, there is a wide range of knowledge, ability and enthusiasm across the playerbase. For many different reasons, not everyone can be among the best. That is a reality. There's no shame to losing to guilds as effective as Haxus, Khole, VE, etc.. But intentionally seeking out lesser competition and avoiding players actually on par with you? I'd call that pretty shameful.

Whoever told you Khole and Haxus avoid each other was drunk or just grossly misinformed. I have spoken with countless members of both guilds and all parties involved love fighting each other. The separation between the two is usually because of differences of servers as @Mrs_Quietus stated. The members of Khole and Haxus hold one another in high regard and do not spend their time avoiding one another because they are scared of competition. Many are friends and good fun is had between all.

100% agree

zyk

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Put down the crack pipe mate - you wouldn't even survive our initial burst if that video is anything to go by. It would be a 5 second fight if K-Hole were hypothetically to stack with VE to fight your two stacked semi pug warbands on even terms. Thanks for the laughs though, this thread just keeps on delivering.

This is a big reason why ESO PVP is lame. Instead of having a rivalry with a guild of similar ability like Haxus, guilds like Khole seem to spend most of their time looking for lesser competition. Even on the forums, you have to come here and wave around your epeen in what had been a nice, civil thread.

In every single game, there is a wide range of knowledge, ability and enthusiasm across the playerbase. For many different reasons, not everyone can be among the best. That is a reality. There's no shame to losing to guilds as effective as Haxus, Khole, VE, etc.. But intentionally seeking out lesser competition and avoiding players actually on par with you? I'd call that pretty shameful.

Whoever told you Khole and Haxus avoid each other was drunk or just grossly misinformed. I have spoken with countless members of both guilds and all parties involved love fighting each other. The separation between the two is usually because of differences of servers as @Mrs_Quietus stated. The members of Khole and Haxus hold one another in high regard and do not spend their time avoiding one another because they are scared of competition. Many are friends and good fun is had between all.

100% agree

Are you seriously trying to tell me Haxus and Khole spend a majority of time seeking out the best possible competition? What a joke. I don't doubt you've had occasional GvGs and 'friendlies', but that's not what I'm talking about.

It's something I have personally observed many times. Especially when both guilds were playing on TF last fall. I am not the first to out Haxus for this in the forums.

But I do not mean to imply this is a haxus/khole phenomenon. No matter the group size, ESO has a culture of experienced, skilled players with optimal builds baiting/farming less capable players with some cheesy routine. They revel in the fact they were "outnumbered", despite the fact they have every other advantage.

Ultimately, the problem is in the game design. There is no incentive for good groups to fight each other. More AP is to be had with other targets. It's created a poor competitive culture.

Satiar

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Put down the crack pipe mate - you wouldn't even survive our initial burst if that video is anything to go by. It would be a 5 second fight if K-Hole were hypothetically to stack with VE to fight your two stacked semi pug warbands on even terms. Thanks for the laughs though, this thread just keeps on delivering.

This is a big reason why ESO PVP is lame. Instead of having a rivalry with a guild of similar ability like Haxus, guilds like Khole seem to spend most of their time looking for lesser competition. Even on the forums, you have to come here and wave around your epeen in what had been a nice, civil thread.

In every single game, there is a wide range of knowledge, ability and enthusiasm across the playerbase. For many different reasons, not everyone can be among the best. That is a reality. There's no shame to losing to guilds as effective as Haxus, Khole, VE, etc.. But intentionally seeking out lesser competition and avoiding players actually on par with you? I'd call that pretty shameful.

Whoever told you Khole and Haxus avoid each other was drunk or just grossly misinformed. I have spoken with countless members of both guilds and all parties involved love fighting each other. The separation between the two is usually because of differences of servers as @Mrs_Quietus stated. The members of Khole and Haxus hold one another in high regard and do not spend their time avoiding one another because they are scared of competition. Many are friends and good fun is had between all.

100% agree

Are you seriously trying to tell me Haxus and Khole spend a majority of time seeking out the best possible competition? What a joke. I don't doubt you've had occasional GvGs and 'friendlies', but that's not what I'm talking about.

It's something I have personally observed many times. Especially when both guilds were playing on TF last fall. I am not the first to out Haxus out for this in the forums.

But I do not mean to imply this is a haxus/khole phenomenon. No matter the group size, ESO has a culture of experienced, skilled players with optimal builds baiting/farming less capable players with some cheesy routine. They revel in the fact they were "outnumbered", despite the fact they have every other advantage.

Ultimately, the problem is in the game design. There is no incentive for good groups to fight each other. More AP is to be had with other targets. It's created a poor competitive culture.

Competitive GvG stuff is hard to maintain now because very few opponents. Fighting the same people over and over and over eventually builds deep salt mines. It's kinda sad but it's how it is. Aside from a brief few weeks fighting GoS on Trueflame, pretty much the only competitive EP group we've fought is Nexus/Haxus and likewise them for us with DC guilds. If you're fighting the same people, day in and day out, unless everyone involved are miraculously good sports eventually there's going to be bad blood. One need only look at our reroll thread and many of the nice comments in there to see what a year of being in each other's faces can do

It was much easier early game because there were more good groups to fight, a variety of opponents. It's different going to fight a faction that has DiE, Decibel, Alacrity, etc than going south knowing you're just going to be fighting Decibel, again. And again and again and again. It's challenging, and fun, but at a certain point someone is winning and someone is losing and than SOMEONE is going to disengage or log off.

That, and blowing up huge groups of pugs is half the reason most of my guild still plays the game! It's a very satisfying experience.

zyk

Satiar wrote: »

Competitive GvG stuff is hard to maintain now because very few opponents. Fighting the same people over and over and over eventually builds deep salt mines. It's kinda sad but it's how it is.

Those salt mines are reflective of healthy competition. It is normal for a high amount of resentment to exist between two true rivals. In healthy PVP (and PVE games with contested content) it is normal for the best guilds to be at the throats of the others.

It was much easier early game because there were more good groups to fight, a variety of opponents. It's different going to fight a faction that has DiE, Decibel, Alacrity, etc than going south knowing you're just going to be fighting Decibel, again. And again and again and again. It's challenging, and fun, but at a certain point someone is winning and someone is losing and than SOMEONE is going to disengage or log off.

I don't know about you, but that's why I chose to play an RvR game. It is supposed to be a long game with value that extends beyond individual engagements. Getting sick of the players in your way and figuring out how to deal with them while competing for an objective is part of the fun. Well, it's supposed to be. @ZOS_BrianWheeler - please fix your game.

That, and blowing up huge groups of pugs is half the reason most of my guild still plays the game! It's a very satisfying experience.

I find this to be extremely unsatisfying. That so many ESO PVP players enjoy this so much has always been disappointing to me. I can appreciate the novelty occasionally, but it gets old fast. Win or lose, the most fun I've had is fighting the best groups. Constantly rolling over opponents is BORING.

Mrs_Quietus

Satiar wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Put down the crack pipe mate - you wouldn't even survive our initial burst if that video is anything to go by. It would be a 5 second fight if K-Hole were hypothetically to stack with VE to fight your two stacked semi pug warbands on even terms. Thanks for the laughs though, this thread just keeps on delivering.

This is a big reason why ESO PVP is lame. Instead of having a rivalry with a guild of similar ability like Haxus, guilds like Khole seem to spend most of their time looking for lesser competition. Even on the forums, you have to come here and wave around your epeen in what had been a nice, civil thread.

In every single game, there is a wide range of knowledge, ability and enthusiasm across the playerbase. For many different reasons, not everyone can be among the best. That is a reality. There's no shame to losing to guilds as effective as Haxus, Khole, VE, etc.. But intentionally seeking out lesser competition and avoiding players actually on par with you? I'd call that pretty shameful.

Whoever told you Khole and Haxus avoid each other was drunk or just grossly misinformed. I have spoken with countless members of both guilds and all parties involved love fighting each other. The separation between the two is usually because of differences of servers as @Mrs_Quietus stated. The members of Khole and Haxus hold one another in high regard and do not spend their time avoiding one another because they are scared of competition. Many are friends and good fun is had between all.

100% agree

Are you seriously trying to tell me Haxus and Khole spend a majority of time seeking out the best possible competition? What a joke. I don't doubt you've had occasional GvGs and 'friendlies', but that's not what I'm talking about.

It's something I have personally observed many times. Especially when both guilds were playing on TF last fall. I am not the first to out Haxus out for this in the forums.

But I do not mean to imply this is a haxus/khole phenomenon. No matter the group size, ESO has a culture of experienced, skilled players with optimal builds baiting/farming less capable players with some cheesy routine. They revel in the fact they were "outnumbered", despite the fact they have every other advantage.

Ultimately, the problem is in the game design. There is no incentive for good groups to fight each other. More AP is to be had with other targets. It's created a poor competitive culture.

Competitive GvG stuff is hard to maintain now because very few opponents. Fighting the same people over and over and over eventually builds deep salt mines. It's kinda sad but it's how it is. Aside from a brief few weeks fighting GoS on Trueflame, pretty much the only competitive EP group we've fought is Nexus/Haxus and likewise them for us with DC guilds. If you're fighting the same people, day in and day out, unless everyone involved are miraculously good sports eventually there's going to be bad blood. One need only look at our reroll thread and many of the nice comments in there to see what a year of being in each other's faces can do

It was much easier early game because there were more good groups to fight, a variety of opponents. It's different going to fight a faction that has DiE, Decibel, Alacrity, etc than going south knowing you're just going to be fighting Decibel, again. And again and again and again. It's challenging, and fun, but at a certain point someone is winning and someone is losing and than SOMEONE is going to disengage or log off.

That, and blowing up huge groups of pugs is half the reason most of my guild still plays the game! It's a very satisfying experience.

I just feel bad for the guilds in Haderus who fight us, everyone suggesting they are all bad and all just pugs. There are very good EP and AD guilds we fight nightly in Haderus. I am not sure what KHole is allowed to do anymore without getting yelled at. We have who we have to fight in Haderus. We refuse to attempt dealing with the lag and crashing in TF, not sure what is so wrong with that.

Darnathian

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Put down the crack pipe mate - you wouldn't even survive our initial burst if that video is anything to go by. It would be a 5 second fight if K-Hole were hypothetically to stack with VE to fight your two stacked semi pug warbands on even terms. Thanks for the laughs though, this thread just keeps on delivering.

This is a big reason why ESO PVP is lame. Instead of having a rivalry with a guild of similar ability like Haxus, guilds like Khole seem to spend most of their time looking for lesser competition. Even on the forums, you have to come here and wave around your epeen in what had been a nice, civil thread.

In every single game, there is a wide range of knowledge, ability and enthusiasm across the playerbase. For many different reasons, not everyone can be among the best. That is a reality. There's no shame to losing to guilds as effective as Haxus, Khole, VE, etc.. But intentionally seeking out lesser competition and avoiding players actually on par with you? I'd call that pretty shameful.

Whoever told you Khole and Haxus avoid each other was drunk or just grossly misinformed. I have spoken with countless members of both guilds and all parties involved love fighting each other. The separation between the two is usually because of differences of servers as @Mrs_Quietus stated. The members of Khole and Haxus hold one another in high regard and do not spend their time avoiding one another because they are scared of competition. Many are friends and good fun is had between all.

100% agree

Are you seriously trying to tell me Haxus and Khole spend a majority of time seeking out the best possible competition? What a joke. I don't doubt you've had occasional GvGs and 'friendlies', but that's not what I'm talking about.

It's something I have personally observed many times. Especially when both guilds were playing on TF last fall. I am not the first to out Haxus for this in the forums.

But I do not mean to imply this is a haxus/khole phenomenon. No matter the group size, ESO has a culture of experienced, skilled players with optimal builds baiting/farming less capable players with some cheesy routine. They revel in the fact they were "outnumbered", despite the fact they have every other advantage.

Ultimately, the problem is in the game design. There is no incentive for good groups to fight each other. More AP is to be had with other targets. It's created a poor competitive culture.

they spend 5% of the time looking for good fights the majority of the time they're looking for the best farm to generate the most lag

Elong

Mrs_Quietus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Put down the crack pipe mate - you wouldn't even survive our initial burst if that video is anything to go by. It would be a 5 second fight if K-Hole were hypothetically to stack with VE to fight your two stacked semi pug warbands on even terms. Thanks for the laughs though, this thread just keeps on delivering.

This is a big reason why ESO PVP is lame. Instead of having a rivalry with a guild of similar ability like Haxus, guilds like Khole seem to spend most of their time looking for lesser competition. Even on the forums, you have to come here and wave around your epeen in what had been a nice, civil thread.

In every single game, there is a wide range of knowledge, ability and enthusiasm across the playerbase. For many different reasons, not everyone can be among the best. That is a reality. There's no shame to losing to guilds as effective as Haxus, Khole, VE, etc.. But intentionally seeking out lesser competition and avoiding players actually on par with you? I'd call that pretty shameful.

Whoever told you Khole and Haxus avoid each other was drunk or just grossly misinformed. I have spoken with countless members of both guilds and all parties involved love fighting each other. The separation between the two is usually because of differences of servers as @Mrs_Quietus stated. The members of Khole and Haxus hold one another in high regard and do not spend their time avoiding one another because they are scared of competition. Many are friends and good fun is had between all.

100% agree

Are you seriously trying to tell me Haxus and Khole spend a majority of time seeking out the best possible competition? What a joke. I don't doubt you've had occasional GvGs and 'friendlies', but that's not what I'm talking about.

It's something I have personally observed many times. Especially when both guilds were playing on TF last fall. I am not the first to out Haxus out for this in the forums.

But I do not mean to imply this is a haxus/khole phenomenon. No matter the group size, ESO has a culture of experienced, skilled players with optimal builds baiting/farming less capable players with some cheesy routine. They revel in the fact they were "outnumbered", despite the fact they have every other advantage.

Ultimately, the problem is in the game design. There is no incentive for good groups to fight each other. More AP is to be had with other targets. It's created a poor competitive culture.

Competitive GvG stuff is hard to maintain now because very few opponents. Fighting the same people over and over and over eventually builds deep salt mines. It's kinda sad but it's how it is. Aside from a brief few weeks fighting GoS on Trueflame, pretty much the only competitive EP group we've fought is Nexus/Haxus and likewise them for us with DC guilds. If you're fighting the same people, day in and day out, unless everyone involved are miraculously good sports eventually there's going to be bad blood. One need only look at our reroll thread and many of the nice comments in there to see what a year of being in each other's faces can do

It was much easier early game because there were more good groups to fight, a variety of opponents. It's different going to fight a faction that has DiE, Decibel, Alacrity, etc than going south knowing you're just going to be fighting Decibel, again. And again and again and again. It's challenging, and fun, but at a certain point someone is winning and someone is losing and than SOMEONE is going to disengage or log off.

That, and blowing up huge groups of pugs is half the reason most of my guild still plays the game! It's a very satisfying experience.

I just feel bad for the guilds in Haderus who fight us, everyone suggesting they are all bad and all just pugs. There are very good EP and AD guilds we fight nightly in Haderus. I am not sure what KHole is allowed to do anymore without getting yelled at. We have who we have to fight in Haderus. We refuse to attempt dealing with the lag and crashing in TF, not sure what is so wrong with that.

I guess it's flattering that so many people who's opinions are worth jack keep commenting about our guilds

Mrs_Quietus

Get yelled at for zerging with a 24 man, get yelled at for being l33ters when running 16 or less. Get yelled at for not playing the map, get hate whispers when we do. Get salt from other factions whose parlays we refuse, called out when we do work with other factions. Told by one faction to dethrone another and yelled at whether or not we oblige...

Satiar

zyk wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Competitive GvG stuff is hard to maintain now because very few opponents. Fighting the same people over and over and over eventually builds deep salt mines. It's kinda sad but it's how it is.

Those salt mines are reflective of healthy competition. It is normal for a high amount of resentment to exist between two true rivals. In healthy PVP (and PVE games with contested content) it is normal for the best guilds to be at the throats of the others.

It was much easier early game because there were more good groups to fight, a variety of opponents. It's different going to fight a faction that has DiE, Decibel, Alacrity, etc than going south knowing you're just going to be fighting Decibel, again. And again and again and again. It's challenging, and fun, but at a certain point someone is winning and someone is losing and than SOMEONE is going to disengage or log off.

I don't know about you, but that's why I chose to play an RvR game. It is supposed to be a long game with value that extends beyond individual engagements. Getting sick of the players in your way and figuring out how to deal with them while competing for an objective is part of the fun. Well, it's supposed to be. @ZOS_BrianWheeler - please fix your game.

That, and blowing up huge groups of pugs is half the reason most of my guild still plays the game! It's a very satisfying experience.

I find this to be extremely unsatisfying. That so many ESO PVP players enjoy this so much has always been disappointing to me. I can appreciate the novelty occasionally, but it gets old fast. Win or lose, the most fun I've had is fighting the best groups. Constantly rolling over opponents is BORING.

I'd say that only having one opponent to fight is not indicative of healthy PvP. Even in dedicated arena style PvP you'll tend to have a variety of opponents. An RvRvR game where you fight pretty much one opponent is kinda awful. I think it's just the state of the game more than anything else. It breeds predictability, to the point that all tactics are known, expected, and thus boring. It's no longer dynamic at all. I'm sure they do the same with me, but 99% of most engagements with the few groups I fight, I can talk the group through what's going to happen with amazing accuracy, and that's just a product of the game we have now.

Believe it or not, kiting hordes of pugs is harder to predict and less boring.

Winnamine

That farm tho xD

Elong

Someone please pay my sub and tell me how to play!

zyk

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

Elong

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

zyk

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

Well, it's a good thing for me that your opinion is also worthless.

Elong

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

Well, it's a good thing for me that your opinion is also worthless.

Winnamine

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

Well, it's a good thing for me that your opinion is also worthless.

If you don't have anything nice to say...
...you're probably on the ESO forums.

Satiar

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

Zyk has a right to his opinion too. He's at least articulating how he feels on it, I don't get why you're being overtly dismissive.

Elong

Satiar wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

Zyk has a right to his opinion too. He's at least articulating how he feels on it, I don't get why you're being overtly dismissive.

I don't get why people try to tell other guilds who to fight and where to fight to be honest. I know you don't like it.

Satiar

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

Zyk has a right to his opinion too. He's at least articulating how he feels on it, I don't get why you're being overtly dismissive.

I don't get why people try to tell other guilds who to fight and where to fight to be honest. I know you don't like it.

I don't like it, but I if it's brought up I'll at least explain why I'm not down with such things.

Zyk likely doesn't need me defending his point here but I actually thought it was interesting (even though I ultimately disagreed with him). None of us like being told how to run our guilds but we constantly moan to each other about it anyways, this at least had some interesting State of the Game tangents.

Elong

Satiar wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

Zyk has a right to his opinion too. He's at least articulating how he feels on it, I don't get why you're being overtly dismissive.

I don't get why people try to tell other guilds who to fight and where to fight to be honest. I know you don't like it.

I don't like it, but I if it's brought up I'll at least explain why I'm not down with such things.

Zyk likely doesn't need me defending his point here but I actually thought it was interesting (even though I ultimately disagreed with him). None of us like being told how to run our guilds but we constantly moan to each other about it anyways, this at least had some interesting State of the Game tangents.

Meh, feels like it's been done to death the whole GvG stuff, it's tedious and leads to salt and even people falsely accusing you of sending death threats to other players or being guilty by association of other players doing it, something I'm still quite disgusted by a day later.

Let people play where and how they want, and worry about their own back yards, that's how I feel about it anyway. No disrespect intended Zyk.

zyk

Winnamine wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I do not believe anyone is telling anyone else how to play. Not I, at least. However, my worthless opinion about a khole might play is as valid as MaximillianDiE's worthless opinion about how Pact Militia plays. No one is beyond reproach.

No, I don't think so.

Well, it's a good thing for me that your opinion is also worthless.

If you don't have anything nice to say...
...you're probably on the ESO forums.

Actually, I used the word worthless with my tongue in my cheek while responding to someone who implied my opinion was worthless. The intent is to convey that all of our opinions essentially have the same value.

Again, I'm not telling anyone how to play. But as is common in forums, I am offering my opinion -- to someone who offered theirs.

@Satiar:

Without a prize, yeah, it's boring to fight the same players over and over again. But that happens anyway, whether it is a top tier guild or randoms who play every night.

But consider that in any sport or esport with leagues and tournaments, this is what tends to happen. In a healthy sport, the best tend to frequently compete against each other. It is not done for the pure joy of fighting those opponents, but for the joy of competing at a high level for a prize.

I am always very general in my suggestions for gameplay changes because there are an unlimited number of ways to make a great game. So I will be very general here. But if there was an objective that rewarded a limited number of players with a coveted prize, I think it would be fun and exciting to compete for that. I think that if such a thing existed, this community would have some fun and heated rivalries indicative of healthy competition. There are countless ways for professional game designers to incentivize content such as this.

Unfortunately, the Alliance War is an extremely neglected game with carrots and sticks we all know don't work.

Poxheart

The one time I was invited to run with KHole we spent most of the time looking for fights against non-pug opponents and actually fought Haxus a few times. I've got to admit it was pretty fun being in a group capable of going toe-to-toe with Haxus.

mchermie

So much conspiracy. You're making it sound a lot more complicated than it really is. I dont know how K-hole is supposed to fight Haxus when we're playing on different campaigns

Joy_Division

@zyk -

I've run in guilds in all 3 factions and I cannot remember a single time when it was decided to avoid a rival guild because of friendship, respect, inconvenience, or some other non-campaign related reason to actually avoid a fight. This isn't to deny there have not been occasional "let's not do that" decisions made because the lag was already terrible, clearing a tower farm would take too much time when a keep we want to defend is under attack, or politely refusing a request to change servers to dethrone. This isn't to say sometimes a personal decision will be made not to fight X guild that happens to be closer to Y guild because of reasons, but it's not shirking competition, rather seeking different competition (sometimes because of the campaign and sometimes for personal reasons, but either way, competition is actively being sought).

I understand a lot of people play this game to farm PUGs and AP (why I do not understand, I have over 20 million AP on my toons, it's like hording sand in the Sahara but whatever), but anyone who is competitive in nature, which comprise most of the members of the better guilds, are going to want to test their chops against the better competition when the opportunity arises. Indeed the have been many many times that "let's get them!" has been uttered in TS.

I won't deny that guilds log off after getting beat multiple times, will opt to farm sometimes rather than chase an enemy guild for an entire weekend saying "fight me bro," or some may indeed home a server in preference of farming more AP from PuGs, preferring the competition come to them in the form of invading/guesting rival guilds, but the reality is if X red guild and Y blue guild are on the same server at the same time, under normal and even many abnormal circumstances, they are going to fight if they are in the same vicinity. I also understand there are stupid politics and wink-wink-nod-nod "agreements" (which, often quickly break down), but guilds and large groups by and large aren't ducking fights.

****

What you say *sometimes* has applicability with non organized guilds because over two years of fighting the same players, friendships form, there is mutual respect, and, mostly I suspect, they know it's not too long before an enemy zergs them down so just leave them be for a few minutes. But even that happens not nearly as often as you seem to think. I have been in a number of multi-faction PvP guilds and there are often lines in zone chat that say something to the effect of "good fight" or "dat wrecking blow" or "sorry, had to defend Arrius!". I would agree there are people on different factions who do not go out of there way picking fights with some specific enemy players, but that's not because they are shirking competition, rather they are seeking competition from the many other players in this game that they dislike, personally don't know, or have had good fights with in the past.

ZOS_DaryaK

We've removed a few posts that contributed nothing to this discussion. Please remember to keep it civil, if you must attack each other, do it in Cyrodiil!

MaximillianDiE

Icy wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

I believe numbers is something guilds (especially newer guilds with less experience) that if available should be used to stay competitive and play the map. This has benefits for both the pugs and the elite guilds that get massive laggy plates of AP given to them from time to time. It takes time to refine a group to the point where they don't need numbers to wipe elite groups or groups of regular players their size. Numbers provide safety to the learn the games meta and not rage quit due to all of the steam rolling elite guilds do to pugs.

Map control is the key to winning the campaign as a whole. Mostly, we felt we were fighting DC only this campaign. We'd love AD to make a strong push here as well (or I would).

I see Pact (and LFG) as performing a vital roll to the health of EP in PvP. What other group is happy to take people who are new to PvP (or even new to MMOs) and show them the way of the joy of PvP? We have the elite groups, but if you're a beginner, that's not somewhere you can begin.

If you listen in TS, bring siege, stay-on-crown (but not too tight) you have a place in my raid (and in any general Pact raid). I want to share the joy of PvP with everyone.

And ultimately, that's why I shared that video in the first place, because I wanted to show everyone the shear FUN we were having. It wouldn't have mattered if VE wiped us every single time (well, maybe a little bit) because we were all having a BLAST.

And for me, that's what PvP is about. And I want to share that with as many people as possible.

I get it and kudos to you for looking after the new players - people like you are a valuable part of our community. I wouldn't for an instant try to tell you how to play the game at the level you're pitching. However as a suggestion, try to spread your groups out a wee bit as stacking large groups causes serious lag and frame rate drop, not just for you (as shown in your video), but also for your allies (see Jule's from Haxus' latest video) and your enemies (as I have experienced first hand). Those of us who have played since before the abortive lighting patch no that ZOS did something that borked its servers and made it difficult for them to handle large numbers on screen after that patch if those large numbers were all coordinating skills like aoes. If we could fight you guys without lagging to hell and back I'm sure I'd be far less cranky about the stacking of warbands, and I do understand your point about the importance of nurturing and training the pugs so they don't rage quit after multiple wipes by groups like ours. I have to give kudos to DiG on AD Haderus for taking the same role and I know we love fighting them when the server can handle their numbers.

This is as I say just a suggestion (as I don't pay your sub after all) but I'm sure your core group would benefit from stepping away from the numbers and trying VE/Fantasia and whoever else are the top tier DC and AD groups on TF now on more even numerical footings if as you say they're looking to improve and step up their game. Even send them over to Haderus to take us on from time to time while your other warbands hold the fort on TF - we'd love that and would even be prepared to give them pointers as we used to with Slywolf, Unruh and other EP opponents when they were switching their game up by pitting themselves against us. I'm sure VE and Fantasia would do the same as despite what zyk says as clearly he hasn't experienced it there is a real camaraderie and respect as well as rivalry amongst the other serious pvp guilds as both Steve from VE and Jules from Haxus have attested to in this thread. Fighting outnumbered or on more even numbers against more experienced (and that's all we are really) opponents allows far less leeway to make mistakes so you don't tend to repeat them once you've made them a couple of times.

Stepping up your core into a more elite role while continuing to pug wrangle separately would help out EP in the game a great deal I'm sure, and having better guilds to fight more evenly is a hell of a lot more fun for the top tier guilds too. None of us want to see EP a lame duck. We've had that on Haderus until fairly recently and its far more fun to be back in a 3 way struggle again rather than a 2 way one as with the population advantage AD has here (at least until this weekend), we really need that too to take the pressure off us as well while adding back that fun dimension a 3rd equally strong faction brings to the game.

Ghost-Shot

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Icy wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

I believe numbers is something guilds (especially newer guilds with less experience) that if available should be used to stay competitive and play the map. This has benefits for both the pugs and the elite guilds that get massive laggy plates of AP given to them from time to time. It takes time to refine a group to the point where they don't need numbers to wipe elite groups or groups of regular players their size. Numbers provide safety to the learn the games meta and not rage quit due to all of the steam rolling elite guilds do to pugs.

Map control is the key to winning the campaign as a whole. Mostly, we felt we were fighting DC only this campaign. We'd love AD to make a strong push here as well (or I would).

I see Pact (and LFG) as performing a vital roll to the health of EP in PvP. What other group is happy to take people who are new to PvP (or even new to MMOs) and show them the way of the joy of PvP? We have the elite groups, but if you're a beginner, that's not somewhere you can begin.

If you listen in TS, bring siege, stay-on-crown (but not too tight) you have a place in my raid (and in any general Pact raid). I want to share the joy of PvP with everyone.

And ultimately, that's why I shared that video in the first place, because I wanted to show everyone the shear FUN we were having. It wouldn't have mattered if VE wiped us every single time (well, maybe a little bit) because we were all having a BLAST.

And for me, that's what PvP is about. And I want to share that with as many people as possible.

I get it and kudos to you for looking after the new players - people like you are a valuable part of our community. I wouldn't for an instant try to tell you how to play the game at the level you're pitching. However as a suggestion, try to spread your groups out a wee bit as stacking large groups causes serious lag and frame rate drop, not just for you (as shown in your video), but also for your allies (see Jule's from Haxus' latest video) and your enemies (as I have experienced first hand). Those of us who have played since before the abortive lighting patch no that ZOS did something that borked its servers and made it difficult for them to handle large numbers on screen after that patch if those large numbers were all coordinating skills like aoes. If we could fight you guys without lagging to hell and back I'm sure I'd be far less cranky about the stacking of warbands, and I do understand your point about the importance of nurturing and training the pugs so they don't rage quit after multiple wipes by groups like ours. I have to give kudos to DiG on AD Haderus for taking the same role and I know we love fighting them when the server can handle their numbers.

This is as I say just a suggestion (as I don't pay your sub after all) but I'm sure your core group would benefit from stepping away from the numbers and trying VE/Fantasia and whoever else are the top tier DC and AD groups on TF now on more even numerical footings if as you say they're looking to improve and step up their game. Even send them over to Haderus to take us on from time to time while your other warbands hold the fort on TF - we'd love that and would even be prepared to give them pointers as we used to with Slywolf, Unruh and other EP opponents when they were switching their game up by pitting themselves against us. I'm sure VE and Fantasia would do the same as despite what zyk says as clearly he hasn't experienced it there is a real camaraderie and respect as well as rivalry amongst the other serious pvp guilds as both Steve from VE and Jules from Haxus have attested to in this thread. Fighting outnumbered or on more even numbers against more experienced (and that's all we are really) opponents allows far less leeway to make mistakes so you don't tend to repeat them once you've made them a couple of times.

Stepping up your core into a more elite role while continuing to pug wrangle separately would help out EP in the game a great deal I'm sure, and having better guilds to fight more evenly is a hell of a lot more fun for the top tier guilds too. None of us want to see EP a lame duck. We've had that on Haderus until fairly recently and its far more fun to be back in a 3 way struggle again rather than a 2 way one as with the population advantage AD has here (at least until this weekend), we really need that too to take the pressure off us as well while adding back that fun dimension a 3rd equally strong faction brings to the game.

This, everyone starts somewhere and we are more than willing to offer advice, but not to someone who encourages their player to chase down single targets with a full raid.

Satiar

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Icy wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

I believe numbers is something guilds (especially newer guilds with less experience) that if available should be used to stay competitive and play the map. This has benefits for both the pugs and the elite guilds that get massive laggy plates of AP given to them from time to time. It takes time to refine a group to the point where they don't need numbers to wipe elite groups or groups of regular players their size. Numbers provide safety to the learn the games meta and not rage quit due to all of the steam rolling elite guilds do to pugs.

Map control is the key to winning the campaign as a whole. Mostly, we felt we were fighting DC only this campaign. We'd love AD to make a strong push here as well (or I would).

I see Pact (and LFG) as performing a vital roll to the health of EP in PvP. What other group is happy to take people who are new to PvP (or even new to MMOs) and show them the way of the joy of PvP? We have the elite groups, but if you're a beginner, that's not somewhere you can begin.

If you listen in TS, bring siege, stay-on-crown (but not too tight) you have a place in my raid (and in any general Pact raid). I want to share the joy of PvP with everyone.

And ultimately, that's why I shared that video in the first place, because I wanted to show everyone the shear FUN we were having. It wouldn't have mattered if VE wiped us every single time (well, maybe a little bit) because we were all having a BLAST.

And for me, that's what PvP is about. And I want to share that with as many people as possible.

I get it and kudos to you for looking after the new players - people like you are a valuable part of our community. I wouldn't for an instant try to tell you how to play the game at the level you're pitching. However as a suggestion, try to spread your groups out a wee bit as stacking large groups causes serious lag and frame rate drop, not just for you (as shown in your video), but also for your allies (see Jule's from Haxus' latest video) and your enemies (as I have experienced first hand). Those of us who have played since before the abortive lighting patch no that ZOS did something that borked its servers and made it difficult for them to handle large numbers on screen after that patch if those large numbers were all coordinating skills like aoes. If we could fight you guys without lagging to hell and back I'm sure I'd be far less cranky about the stacking of warbands, and I do understand your point about the importance of nurturing and training the pugs so they don't rage quit after multiple wipes by groups like ours. I have to give kudos to DiG on AD Haderus for taking the same role and I know we love fighting them when the server can handle their numbers.

This is as I say just a suggestion (as I don't pay your sub after all) but I'm sure your core group would benefit from stepping away from the numbers and trying VE/Fantasia and whoever else are the top tier DC and AD groups on TF now on more even numerical footings if as you say they're looking to improve and step up their game. Even send them over to Haderus to take us on from time to time while your other warbands hold the fort on TF - we'd love that and would even be prepared to give them pointers as we used to with Slywolf, Unruh and other EP opponents when they were switching their game up by pitting themselves against us. I'm sure VE and Fantasia would do the same as despite what zyk says as clearly he hasn't experienced it there is a real camaraderie and respect as well as rivalry amongst the other serious pvp guilds as both Steve from VE and Jules from Haxus have attested to in this thread. Fighting outnumbered or on more even numbers against more experienced (and that's all we are really) opponents allows far less leeway to make mistakes so you don't tend to repeat them once you've made them a couple of times.

Stepping up your core into a more elite role while continuing to pug wrangle separately would help out EP in the game a great deal I'm sure, and having better guilds to fight more evenly is a hell of a lot more fun for the top tier guilds too. None of us want to see EP a lame duck. We've had that on Haderus until fairly recently and its far more fun to be back in a 3 way struggle again rather than a 2 way one as with the population advantage AD has here (at least until this weekend), we really need that too to take the pressure off us as well while adding back that fun dimension a 3rd equally strong faction brings to the game.

This, everyone starts somewhere and we are more than willing to offer advice, but not to someone who encourages their player to chase down single targets with a full raid.

To be fair I do this to Frozn all the timE.

Satiar

A less flippant follow up: I'm dubious of criticizing anyone for their numbers because people frequently do it to me and mine. Bulb and I run what is generally considered to be one of the best PvP guilds in the game and I still get endless flack from my opponents about "my scrub Zerg". People should run the numbers they enjoy running, and build/train accordingly, building to please your opponents is pointless.

Ill admit I dislike being chased down by 2+ raids but you have to be practical about these things. Moral victories are not victories. Still, I'd welcome the day I can fight you guys without equipping a skill bar specifically designed to function in 5 fps and 800+ ping.