End Game Stamina Nightblade Build- PvE DPS (Updated for Clockwork City)

Gilliamtherogue

mortalous wrote: »

Hi Gilliam and thanks for this very nice build. I am new to playing a stamina NB so I am still learning how to master this build.

I have fairly decent gear and and maelstrom weapons and am doing okay inside of maelstrom arena with this build.

My question is pertaining to a video that you have on you tube using this build. I was watching it and looking at what you were doing to beat vma with this build and saw something that I am curious about.

The video is titled "Competitive Veteran Maelstrom Arena Stamina Nightblade PoV" posted on April 3, 2016.

At 8:24 and 8:26 there are two very brief times you are looking at your character stat screen and inventory and I noticed that your stamina recovery is at 0.

Given that, what skills are you getting stamina recovery with on this build? I see you are using food and drinks would show on the character stat screen, so it has to be coming from somewhere else. When watching your play in the video you recover stamina decently, but I am not sure where that is coming from. I need more stamina recovery and was hoping you could shed some light on that.

If this has been answered before then please point me in that direction. I could totally be making a noobish mistake and not considering something so please let me know what I am missing.

Thanks again for all the hard work on this build!

My regen is just under 1100 with Major and Minor Endurance up with my vMA setup I run. The setup I suggest to newer players (with vMA in mind) however runs about 2200-2500, swapping out 3 Agility for 3 Endurance and using 2 Stamina Regeneration enchants instead of 3 Weapon Damage enchants.

a_hero

Hey Gilliam.

Which enchant would be the best for the Maelstrom Bow?

Also, how exactly does swapping weapons after causing DOTs with a bow work? Does the difference in trait/weapon damage between the two affect the DOT damage?

Lastly, is either rending slashes or rapid strikes worth using even if I don't yet own Maelstrom Daggers?

Cheers for the amazing guide btw - I, and many others, really appreciate all the hard work and effort you've put into this

Gilliamtherogue

a_hero wrote: »

Hey Gilliam.

Which enchant would be the best for the Maelstrom Bow?

Also, how exactly does swapping weapons after causing DOTs with a bow work? Does the difference in trait/weapon damage between the two affect the DOT damage?

Lastly, is either rending slashes or rapid strikes worth using even if I don't yet own Maelstrom Daggers?

Cheers for the amazing guide btw - I, and many others, really appreciate all the hard work and effort you've put into this

You don't enchant the Maelstrom bow or Maelstrom daggers, it'll override the enchants which is really bad.

The trait and weapon damage only matters for the few seconds you're on that bar, they will be updated to what you swap to after. However, the Infused trait will not carry over from the Maelstrom Bow.

Rending Slashes is worth using in single target fights regardless of Maelstrom Daggers or not. Rapid Strikes is better than Surprise Attack IF the target is already afflicted my Major Fracture from another source/player. In solo play Surprise Attack > Rapid Strikes if no Maelstrom Daggers.

a_hero

Sorry I meant to say which trait is best on the Maelstrom Bow, my bad.

Based on what you've said above does this mean that the trait+damage on my bow doesn't matter as it will change to whatever trait I have on my main hand when I switch over to it?

Gilliamtherogue

a_hero wrote: »

Sorry I meant to say which trait is best on the Maelstrom Bow, my bad.

Based on what you've said above does this mean that the trait+damage on my bow doesn't matter as it will change to whatever trait I have on my main hand when I switch over to it?

Correct, though making sure it is Legendary for maximum enchantment power (assuming non crafted) is still important.

ArtOfShred

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

However, the Infused trait will not carry over from the Maelstrom Bow.

Trying to get my hands on an infused Maelstrom 1H so I can see how this interacts with it. Do you know if the enchant would carry over as long as you had 1 infused weapon on your other bar still? I can see that potentially being pretty strong if so. (Not to mention an extra 20% weapon damage bonus applied to Cruel Flurry, assuming it actually works properly).

Also another kind of unrelated question for you, I watched the video where you and Deltia solo ICP recently, and I'm curious what addon you are using for these nice clean timer bars: http://puu.sh/q6ncy.png
EDIT: Found someone else asking in a Youtube comment, for anyone else wondering its: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1278-BuffTimers.html

a_hero

Hi again, Gilliam.

I've been using Rapid Strikes in place of Surprise Attack as you suggested and am unsure how to weave it. Do I literally treat them the same as in I heavy weave between Rapid Strikes and use it as my spammable when my DOTs are all up?

I am also unsure of if I weave my killer's blade execute - I have read that you just purely spam it by itself - is this due to it having an instant cast time?

Could you enlighten me on how penetration with regards to Sharpened weapons work; does it behave like a major / minor buff or could literally three people stack sharpened weapons for 15,000 armour penetration for a group if they wanted to?

EDIT: What would be the best enchantment to run on a crafted bow?

Thankyou for all of your help so far !

Gilliamtherogue

ArtOfShred wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

However, the Infused trait will not carry over from the Maelstrom Bow.

Trying to get my hands on an infused Maelstrom 1H so I can see how this interacts with it. Do you know if the enchant would carry over as long as you had 1 infused weapon on your other bar still? I can see that potentially being pretty strong if so. (Not to mention an extra 20% weapon damage bonus applied to Cruel Flurry, assuming it actually works properly).

Also another kind of unrelated question for you, I watched the video where you and Deltia solo ICP recently, and I'm curious what addon you are using for these nice clean timer bars: http://puu.sh/q6ncy.png
EDIT: Found someone else asking in a Youtube comment, for anyone else wondering its: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1278-BuffTimers.html

@ArtOfShred I am unsure how the Infused trait would interact with the Maelstrom 1h, as it gives a buff after casting Minor Maim that is to be consumed on the next attack. I can't test it since I don't have any Infused Maelstrom weapons. The Cruel Flurry enchantment is also not worth running either, as it is only 619 Weapon damage applied to Trap Beast, Rending Slashes, and Poison Injection (Smiting Dawnbreaker where applicable as well, although it is seldom used in raid environments) which is outshone by Sharpened on Precise.

It is indeed BuffTimers, one of my favorite addons for buff management

Gilliamtherogue

a_hero wrote: »

Hi again, Gilliam.

I've been using Rapid Strikes in place of Surprise Attack as you suggested and am unsure how to weave it. Do I literally treat them the same as in I heavy weave between Rapid Strikes and use it as my spammable when my DOTs are all up?

I am also unsure of if I weave my killer's blade execute - I have read that you just purely spam it by itself - is this due to it having an instant cast time?

Could you enlighten me on how penetration with regards to Sharpened weapons work; does it behave like a major / minor buff or could literally three people stack sharpened weapons for 15,000 armour penetration for a group if they wanted to?

EDIT: What would be the best enchantment to run on a crafted bow?

Thankyou for all of your help so far !

@a_hero You should be light attacking, or "weaving" in between each and every casted ability you do. You should barely see your character's arm flinch when swinging your Light Attack, and then immediately casting a Rapid Strikes (or any other ability). Heavy Weaving is only a viable means for Dragon Knights running Molten Armaments, and questionable for Stamina Sorcerers with Bound Armor. It helps resource management but is too slow to up keep most of DoTs in an end game situation. If managing multiple DOT's is too difficult however, this is a viable means of DPS.

Again, you should never purely spam an ability. Every single cast, whether it be a heal, buff, or damaging attack should be weaved if you are aiming to be efficient. There is no loss incurred with this, and the only excuse not to is human error or laziness.

Sharpened increases your penetration, which means only you gain benefit of the stat. Armor Reduction and Penetration are two separate stats. Reduction applies to the target, meaning anyone hitting it will gain benefit, while Penetration is bound to an individual. This means if a boss has 10000 Physical Mitigation and someone applied Major Fracture (-5280) and player A had 2 Sharpened Weapons and player B had none, player A would hit the mob as if it had 0 armor ((10000-5280)-5160) while player B would hit the target as if it had 4720 Physical Mitigation (10000-5280). Keep in mind this is an example situation, and there are multiple sources of passive Penetration (Champion points, skill passives, etc) as well as everyone having a static 100 base penetration at level 50.

Hard question to answer. You spend less than 10% of a fight on your bow bar (or rather, should be) with this build, meaning the trait isn't extremely important. Precise and Sharpened will both only benefit you while you are on this bar and even casted abilities from this bar will use the trait of whatever bar you swap over to. However, Infused will allow most enchants to carry over, meaning if you run an Infused Weapon Damage glyph on your bow and swap off, it will retain the 20% bonus for the 5 second duration. This is great for PvP burst, but is extremely outperformed by a Sharpened or Precise Maelstrom Bow (as infused does not work with the Bow when swapped off of)

Rataroto

After some grinding I've managed to compelte my setup as of now. I take running skoria is not the best anymore or is it?
I'm running 5 Vicious Ophodia (on Jewlerry), Maelstrom Bow(Precise), Maelstrom Dagger and Axe (Precise and Sharpened), and 5 pieces of either Night Mothers(If there is none in group), Hundings Rage(if there is already a NM) or Twice Born Star(Trials with of Agressive Warhorns). Running Shadow or Shadow with Thief (When TBS). Skill bars look the same, just got rid of steel tornado as mainly we single target things and use deadly cloack for extra passive aoe + some more tankiness, Dawnbreaker of Smiting when daedras, and ice commet for the rest.
How good of a setup is that, and what do you think of the next patch to come reguarding sets and skills?

Gilliamtherogue

Rataroto wrote: »

After some grinding I've managed to compelte my setup as of now. I take running skoria is not the best anymore or is it?
I'm running 5 Vicious Ophodia (on Jewlerry), Maelstrom Bow(Precise), Maelstrom Dagger and Axe (Precise and Sharpened), and 5 pieces of either Night Mothers(If there is none in group), Hundings Rage(if there is already a NM) or Twice Born Star(Trials with of Agressive Warhorns). Running Shadow or Shadow with Thief (When TBS). Skill bars look the same, just got rid of steel tornado as mainly we single target things and use deadly cloack for extra passive aoe + some more tankiness, Dawnbreaker of Smiting when daedras, and ice commet for the rest.
How good of a setup is that, and what do you think of the next patch to come reguarding sets and skills?

Skoria was never the best to run, aside from in vMA if you don't have Vicious, Mephala's has been stronger for a while.

Yep, good swaps for Nado, I hardly use it anymore in trials aside from really big trash packs. Cloak is usually my go to, but you can also run Vigor to help out in like VSO.

Shooting Star will out perform both DBoS and Ice Comet in *most* circumstances. DBoS is great for burst or high mobility fights, but Shooting Star's lingering DoT will out damage DBoS even if it is amped by Rapid Strikes. Also see why Shooting > Ice in the ulti break down.

I don't see much of anything changing next patch, none of the sets are very appealing for end game DPS. Viledereth was the closest thing but it is out performed by Mephala's since Vile has a maximum damage of x3 while Mephala's has no cap.

kadar

Hey, @Gilliamtherogue , hoping to pick your brain. I'm currently running a build very similar to yours and have pulled tons of useful info from your guide, so thanks for writing it!

I'm currently running 5 pc Hundings, crafted ages ago, all legendary quality. The Chest and Legs are Infused. At first I considered remaking those two pieces into Divines, but then I thought it might be better to craft a new 5 pc Night Mother's. After skimming your guide again you mention that NM will outperform Hundings by only ~2%. Not sure I want to shell out ~35k gold to make a new NM set Legendary for 2% DPS, ya know?
My other thought was to make a set of Twice Born. Everyone seems to be singing it's praises these days. Only problem for me is I'm not running with the same consistent group in trials, so not sure if NM penetration will always be applied by someone else. The other factor, is I would also be running the new set in vMA. Not sure how TBS would perform in a solo situation vs. Hundings or NM.

TLDR: Should I recraft my 2 infused Hundings pieces to divines, make a full divines NM set, or go TBS? I'm having trouble making the decision!

Gilliamtherogue

The_Outsider wrote: »

Hey, @Gilliamtherogue , hoping to pick your brain. I'm currently running a build very similar to yours and have pulled tons of useful info from your guide, so thanks for writing it!

I'm currently running 5 pc Hundings, crafted ages ago, all legendary quality. The Chest and Legs are Infused. At first I considered remaking those two pieces into Divines, but then I thought it might be better to craft a new 5 pc Night Mother's. After skimming your guide again you mention that NM will outperform Hundings by only ~2%. Not sure I want to shell out ~35k gold to make a new NM set Legendary for 2% DPS, ya know?
My other thought was to make a set of Twice Born. Everyone seems to be singing it's praises these days. Only problem for me is I'm not running with the same consistent group in trials, so not sure if NM penetration will always be applied by someone else. The other factor, is I would also be running the new set in vMA. Not sure how TBS would perform in a solo situation vs. Hundings or NM.

TLDR: Should I recraft my 2 infused Hundings pieces to divines, make a full divines NM set, or go TBS? I'm having trouble making the decision!

Well 2% DPS doesn't seem like a lot, but 2% means its an amplification of what you can already do. If you're pulling 20k without NM that means you're getting an additional 400 DPS, while if you're pulling 40k you're getting 800 more DPS. This will continue to get stronger the more powerful our characters become.

Twice Born Star is a great option but still ultimately loses to NM DPS wise, however it does have the added advantage of a health bonus, which in vMA is quite nice. If you find yourself lacking some health then go ahead and pick up TBS, it's versatile for all PvE content. Hundings is the most universal setup but it's also the weakest.

Here's a break down to how I'd suggest this;
If you play all content equally and don't have a lot of materials, go ahead and just make the two divines Hundings pieces. This means you PvP, PvE; Solo and Group play.

If you're more PvE focused and tend to do group play more often, go with Nightmother's. It's not only the strongest solo DPS choice, but you'll also be giving a massive DPS boost to any other stam builds in group.

If you're more solo PvE focused or you play in end tier raid environments that have players with this set, go with TBS.

My personal suggestion is to swallow the cost and make all 3, I have a set for every occasion.

kadar

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Hey, @Gilliamtherogue , hoping to pick your brain. I'm currently running a build very similar to yours and have pulled tons of useful info from your guide, so thanks for writing it!

I'm currently running 5 pc Hundings, crafted ages ago, all legendary quality. The Chest and Legs are Infused. At first I considered remaking those two pieces into Divines, but then I thought it might be better to craft a new 5 pc Night Mother's. After skimming your guide again you mention that NM will outperform Hundings by only ~2%. Not sure I want to shell out ~35k gold to make a new NM set Legendary for 2% DPS, ya know?
My other thought was to make a set of Twice Born. Everyone seems to be singing it's praises these days. Only problem for me is I'm not running with the same consistent group in trials, so not sure if NM penetration will always be applied by someone else. The other factor, is I would also be running the new set in vMA. Not sure how TBS would perform in a solo situation vs. Hundings or NM.

TLDR: Should I recraft my 2 infused Hundings pieces to divines, make a full divines NM set, or go TBS? I'm having trouble making the decision!

Well 2% DPS doesn't seem like a lot, but 2% means its an amplification of what you can already do. If you're pulling 20k without NM that means you're getting an additional 400 DPS, while if you're pulling 40k you're getting 800 more DPS. This will continue to get stronger the more powerful our characters become.

Twice Born Star is a great option but still ultimately loses to NM DPS wise, however it does have the added advantage of a health bonus, which in vMA is quite nice. If you find yourself lacking some health then go ahead and pick up TBS, it's versatile for all PvE content. Hundings is the most universal setup but it's also the weakest.

Here's a break down to how I'd suggest this;
If you play all content equally and don't have a lot of materials, go ahead and jsut make the two divines Hundings pieces. This means you PvP, PvE; Solo and Group play.

If you're more PvE focused and tend to do group play more often, go with Nightmother's. It's not only the strongest solo DPS choice, but you'll also be giving a massive DPS boost to any other stam builds in group.

If you're more solo PvE focused or you play in end tier raid environments that have players with this set, go with TBS.

My personal suggestion is to swallow the cost and make all 3, I have a set for every occasion.

Thanks for the reply, super helpful^

I'll probably end up crafting both NM and TBS.

phreatophile

@Gilliamtherogue Thank you for this guide, you've helped me increase my DPS dramatically.

I have a question regarding Steel Tornado vs Power Extraction. I notice you recommend Steel Tornado in most situations. Now that Power Extraction scales with Mighty it does more raw damage than Steel Tornado against full to medium health enemies. Is the execute really enough to make up for the loss of Major Brutality, are we making up the difference with added critical damage? Mea Culpa if I've missed something obvious here.

Gilliamtherogue

phreatophile wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue Thank you for this guide, you've helped me increase my DPS dramatically.

I have a question regarding Steel Tornado vs Power Extraction. I notice you recommend Steel Tornado in most situations. Now that Power Extraction scales with Mighty it does more raw damage than Steel Tornado against full to medium health enemies. Is the execute really enough to make up for the loss of Major Brutality, are we making up the difference with added critical damage? Mea Culpa if I've missed something obvious here.

This build uses potions that grant Major Savagery and Brutality that lasts indefinitely as long as you keep drinking them. This means Power Extraction offers nothing over Steel Tornado except higher tooltip, which immediately loses to Steel Tornado once a mob is at or below 60-70% health.

susmitds

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue Thank you for this guide, you've helped me increase my DPS dramatically.

I have a question regarding Steel Tornado vs Power Extraction. I notice you recommend Steel Tornado in most situations. Now that Power Extraction scales with Mighty it does more raw damage than Steel Tornado against full to medium health enemies. Is the execute really enough to make up for the loss of Major Brutality, are we making up the difference with added critical damage? Mea Culpa if I've missed something obvious here.

This build uses potions that grant Major Savagery and Brutality that lasts indefinitely as long as you keep drinking them. This means Power Extraction offers nothing over Steel Tornado except higher tooltip, which immediately loses to Steel Tornado once a mob is at or below 60-70% health.

You get passive Ultimate build up with Siphoning passives from Power Extraction, which helps a bit I think.

phreatophile

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

This build uses potions that grant Major Savagery and Brutality that lasts indefinitely as long as you keep drinking them. This means Power Extraction offers nothing over Steel Tornado except higher tooltip, which immediately loses to Steel Tornado once a mob is at or below 60-70% health.

Thanks, that makes sense. I missed the potion reliance. The ingredients for that potion are cheap and/or easy to find so I can see why it's worth chugging pots all the time and catalyst passive gives better ultimate than transfer passive does.

Gilliamtherogue

susmitds wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue Thank you for this guide, you've helped me increase my DPS dramatically.

I have a question regarding Steel Tornado vs Power Extraction. I notice you recommend Steel Tornado in most situations. Now that Power Extraction scales with Mighty it does more raw damage than Steel Tornado against full to medium health enemies. Is the execute really enough to make up for the loss of Major Brutality, are we making up the difference with added critical damage? Mea Culpa if I've missed something obvious here.

This build uses potions that grant Major Savagery and Brutality that lasts indefinitely as long as you keep drinking them. This means Power Extraction offers nothing over Steel Tornado except higher tooltip, which immediately loses to Steel Tornado once a mob is at or below 60-70% health.

You get passive Ultimate build up with Siphoning passives from Power Extraction, which helps a bit I think.

This procs off Siphoning Attacks as well though. While it's not proccing off cooldown it's not a high enough gain to run over Nado. Nado's damage is just way too high to pass.

Chinny

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Skoria was never the best to run, aside from in vMA if you don't have Vicious, Mephala's has been stronger for a while.

I don't see much of anything changing next patch, none of the sets are very appealing for end game DPS. Viledereth was the closest thing but it is out performed by Mephala's since Vile has a maximum damage of x3 while Mephala's has no cap.

Thanks for keeping up with all the theorycrafting!

So - BIS right now is Mephala + 5pc Vicious Serpent? Is that for all content or for specific instances?

Gilliamtherogue

Chinny wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Skoria was never the best to run, aside from in vMA if you don't have Vicious, Mephala's has been stronger for a while.

I don't see much of anything changing next patch, none of the sets are very appealing for end game DPS. Viledereth was the closest thing but it is out performed by Mephala's since Vile has a maximum damage of x3 while Mephala's has no cap.

Thanks for keeping up with all the theorycrafting!

So - BIS right now is Mephala + 5pc Vicious Serpent? Is that for all content or for specific instances?

BiS is dependent on a lot of stuff. In fully optimized raid settings BiS is 5 TBS 5 VO 2 Maelstrom assuming pure single target. Once there are adds in the fight it becomes 5 TBS 2 Mephala 3 Agility 2 Maelstrom.
This is assuming people in group are already running; Night Mother's Gaze, Sunderflame, Alkosh, and Morag Tong. In terms of overall raid enabling DPS; Alkosh > Sunderflame > Night Mother's > Morag Tong (as stamina).

SanTii.92

Hey Sensei, what do you do with your caltrops slot if someone else is already running it?

Gilliamtherogue

sAnn92 wrote: »

Hey Sensei, what do you do with your caltrops slot if someone else is already running it?

I make them take it off. Caltrops scales the best with Stamina Nightblades on single target, and best with Stam Sorcs on trash. On trash you have two people running it, so this solves the problem.

KamakaziYardbird

First of all, as always thank you for the guide! wouldnt be here without it!

as far as best gear/ good gear. I am running 5 VO (3 jewelry Head, shoulder) and NM for the rest currently building TBS as well. since i havnt completed Malestorm area for the daggers. would Lekis swords/daggers be the best for my weps for the bonus. Now i feel like i have a butt load of stamina doing this but feel like my wep damage is lacking. my gear is not legendary yet and i am dont have wep damage on my jewlery yet. my currect set up Molog shoulder/ 5 piece VO / 3 agility / 3 NM my wep damage is around 2800. without the wep proc. Anyway, guess my question is . is it really better in a 4 man group/ solo play using 5 VO / 5 NM and 2 Lekis?

gard

Gilliam,

Thanks for sharing your build with us. I've been working toward building a toon like this and really enjoying it.

Do you have a build up somewhere for pvp? I've gotten hooked on pvp recently and would be interested to see what you came up with for that.

Gilliamtherogue

KamakaziYardbird wrote: »

First of all, as always thank you for the guide! wouldnt be here without it!

as far as best gear/ good gear. I am running 5 VO (3 jewelry Head, shoulder) and NM for the rest currently building TBS as well. since i havnt completed Malestorm area for the daggers. would Lekis swords/daggers be the best for my weps for the bonus. Now i feel like i have a butt load of stamina doing this but feel like my wep damage is lacking. my gear is not legendary yet and i am dont have wep damage on my jewlery yet. my currect set up Molog shoulder/ 5 piece VO / 3 agility / 3 NM my wep damage is around 2800. without the wep proc. Anyway, guess my question is . is it really better in a 4 man group/ solo play using 5 VO / 5 NM and 2 Lekis?

2 Hundings would outperform 2 Leki's in a raid, but 2 Leki's would win in solo/smaller, less coordinated groups. 5 VO/5 NM/2 Hundings/Leki's is the strongest solo build there is out there at the moment. You're extremely squishy but as long as no one else in the group has NM, the damage gain is absurd.

Weapon damage is not really what makes builds strong in PvE; Crit, Crit Hit Damage, and Penetration are all much more efficient in terms of raw DPS.

KamakaziYardbird

As always, thank you. It's just hard for my to take off the agility rings/neckless

Miklo7662

Thanks for keeping this updated. Very much appreciated!

Aztlan

Hey Gilliam. Thanks again for the great guide.

Although I know this is all about PvE, do you think I would be better off using the Warrior or the Serpent mundus stone instead of the Shadow in PvP, where many players have high critical resistance? In PvE, you state that the Warrior provides only about 1/3 of the effectiveness of the Shadow.

I am a khajiit, wearing a combination of Alchemist and Hundings with all Impenetrable traits, and my own crit resistance is over 2500. If I were hit by a NB using the Shadow and another using the Warrior, which would do more damage, all other things being equal?

undefeatdgaul

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

KamakaziYardbird wrote: »

First of all, as always thank you for the guide! wouldnt be here without it!

as far as best gear/ good gear. I am running 5 VO (3 jewelry Head, shoulder) and NM for the rest currently building TBS as well. since i havnt completed Malestorm area for the daggers. would Lekis swords/daggers be the best for my weps for the bonus. Now i feel like i have a butt load of stamina doing this but feel like my wep damage is lacking. my gear is not legendary yet and i am dont have wep damage on my jewlery yet. my currect set up Molog shoulder/ 5 piece VO / 3 agility / 3 NM my wep damage is around 2800. without the wep proc. Anyway, guess my question is . is it really better in a 4 man group/ solo play using 5 VO / 5 NM and 2 Lekis?

2 Hundings would outperform 2 Leki's in a raid, but 2 Leki's would win in solo/smaller, less coordinated groups. 5 VO/5 NM/2 Hundings/Leki's is the strongest solo build there is out there at the moment. You're extremely squishy but as long as no one else in the group has NM, the damage gain is absurd.

Weapon damage is not really what makes builds strong in PvE; Crit, Crit Hit Damage, and Penetration are all much more efficient in terms of raw DPS.

Hey first off thank you for all the great info, Im a stamplar but this was VERY VERY educating for me. Also not to sound like a total idiot but im still learning all this build info. What is the VO set? I was planning on doing 5 NM or Hundings since im a stamplar but no im curious about that.

Thanks again.