Where Are We Headed?

WRX · January 2016

@Zheg I do agree with that TTK will be lower, hard to argue it won't. Overall fights I think might be slower paced though, and keep takes will be a lot more thought out and will really depend on how a defending group is set up. And in the same way, removal of AoE caps would have a profound change on TTK as well.

IMO we will see offensive strats for taking keeps that I have only ever seen two guilds run. I am sure others may have done it, but not that I remember.

Hopefully forward camps will allow for more fights that last longer as well.

frozywozy · January 2016

90% of your reply is pure insults, bashing and denying the thruth by stating opinions instead of facts but we will get into it point by point and try to clarify it with maturity and constructive critism (something you and some VE members obviously can't do when people disagree with you).

x99Needles wrote: »

Coming from someone who doesn't know how to keep to his word in any sense, I hope you don't expect me to take you seriously. Also, quoting me repeating my point in a different context and asking if I can be more contradictory? Can you be more ignorant?

In a first time, you try to make people realize that Cyrodiil is in a poor state and that we should know by now that the game cannot currently operate as was intended (too many players on the screen at once or too many aoe calculations at the same time or the anti-bot system), and then 6paragraphs later you complain because people are shaming large groups for playing the way it was intended. There is no "Frozen you are out of context". This is plain simple. Quoted your words.

You are on the forums in different threads constantly changing your opinion on multiple matters, seems the only real thing you can hold yourself to is whatever tickles your fancy in the immediate moment.

I am unsure about where and when I have been changing my opinion on multiple matters. I stick to the same points and have been promoting them for years (helping server performances - promoting quality gameplay over stacking more numbers) - just see my signature, it's all there. Feel free to enlight me about what you're reffering to. I'm afraid you are only bringing assumptions without facts which doesn't prove anything.

Upcoming prox det changes will not result in any different effect than there is now. Ball groups will use it, it will be most effective in 24 man raids no matter how you look at it.

Which part of "Zenimax plans to redesign Prox Det in the next major update to deal minimal damage to few players and lot more than before to several players. This is how it should have worked since the beginning. It will still be a tool for large group against large group play and it will help smaller groups/solo players against larger groups." did you not get? You simply replied to this by stating a thruth you think is absolute without giving any argument or making any sense. Try again.

As for running 16, I'll only run 16 when the game's group size is reduced. You mention max pop across all three factions, do you think everyone else runs around in 16 man groups? I'm the only one in cyrodiil that runs 24? Everything would be just fine if I ran 16? If you want smaller groups, take it up with ZOS.

As for running 16, I'll only run 16 when the game's group size is reduced.

You will only run a 16men group when the game's group size is reduced. @speeez - Could you link me a @fengrush 's sigh meme in here please? Could we know your reasoning behind this? Not that I didn't expect it, I knew that even if I begged you it would not change your mind whatsoever.

I've never said that I think everyone else runs around in a 16 man group. You are making up my words. I've never said that everything would be fine if you ran with a 16men group. You are making my words once again. I simply suggested that you give it a try with 16 players and go fight another group of 16 players with plenty of players on the screen (40)+. Your ping will spike for sure because of too many players on the screen, but I assure you it will never spike as much as when two groups of 24 players run into each other (1200-2000ms), as we saw yesterday at Farragut when DC got their scroll back.

I've got plenty of great fights on Azura 16vs16 and it was epic. I even recorded some and would be happy to upload them for you if you really want me to. There is a huge different between 16vs16 and 24vs24 gameplay in a campaign max pop.

"By playing intelligently." Frozen. You are reaching levels of stupidity I cannot begin to fathom. You seriously think running 16 is going to stop ALL lag? Are you that naive?

Ok. You quote me saying "By playing intelligently" and relate it to me reffering to playing in a 16men group. Let's link my sentence now and see if you make any sense.

By playing intelligently, I mean by that to communicate with other guilds constantly and hit different objectives.

Good try again, but I think you got confused a little bit trying to refute my point.

"You, you cannot play the game inside this keep because 16 ppl are already here. Sorry, you'll have to run somewhere else or log off." Seriously frozen, use that brain of yours, you have a degree remember? But hey, 8 more players in a group is the difference between 800ping and playable. I hope people read this and laugh at how ridiculous you sound.

Here you quote me saying something that I've never stated in my thread "You, you cannot play the game inside this keep because 16 ppl are already here. Sorry, you'll have to run somewhere else or log off."

You are so out of arguments that you gotta make up sentences that I supposedly said? I don't even mean this in any other way. What you said doesn't even reflect what I think. Your insults and tries to make me look bad are outrageous, I don't even know what to think. pfft

The Siege damage changes being implemented to further damage players is because we only siege one wall down? ....???????????????????? So when siege does more damage Against Players...we will somehow be forced to knock more walls down...?????????????????? Siege damage is being increased on players. Not walls. I don't even know what else to say, you have the least amount of logic in your posts it's getting to the point of bad for my blood pressure.

Ok. Again, a paragraph full of insults, bashing, words twisting and assumptions. Let's go back to my original post and figure this out like adults, shall we?

The way it is right now, an organized 24men group can easily get inside a keep without too many complications as long as people in the group follow these simply basics :

1) Stay stacked
2) Use Barrier
3) Have people spamming purges
4) Have someone popping maneuvers once and have everyone in the group not dealing any damage

If you follow these 4 instructions, siege will barely tickle you in any scenario. This is the actual meta. Now people have been asking for changes to make going inside the courtyard or going inside an inner keep harder than it actually is. I have never seen in any scenario in the world (game or movie related), attacker going inside a breach as easily as in this game. It is a joke. People who say that keeps are easy to defend have no idea what they're talking about. Now back to your post, you generalize saying that I think siege damage changes are being put in place to bring down additional walls which make me doubt if I'm the one learning english still or you. Then you say "Siege damage is being increased on players. Not walls" which prove how badly you misinterpret my point on purpose. Nothing else to add really. Just go read again my original post.

Even if we wanted to knock more walls down, how is that going to fix anything related to what I'm worried about? You're just going to stack fire balista, meat bags, and oil cats, with oil on the ledges inside the inner. You know, the choke with only two walls. Or have you forgotten keep layouts already?

As I previously said, if you want to capture a keep, you should scout it properly in the first time (not aim the one next to the transit line), otherwise expect alot of defense and a very challenging fight. Not saying it is not the right thing to do but with the actual server performances, I barely try anymore. Latency gets way too harsh. If you like that kind of stuff and lag doesn't bother you, then go for it, your call. But you should not expect to be able to drive your 24men ballgroup inside a breach without troubles when people are HIGHLY defending it. A defending position should always have the advantage. It is not the fact right now. There is no counter to purge spamming and maneuvers. A ball group can easily gets inside a single breach and out maneuvers all sieges and defenses in place.

With the next siege meta, even if I'm very disappointed they are not making siege unpurgable, there are several great points such as faster balista rotation which will help deal with ballgroups typical marathon runners. I think they should have decrease the ressource damage by half though. They can still change their mind, it is not even on the PTS yet.

I think the only reason you want these siege changes is because like most others who want it, its the only way you kill things.

Again, another free insult for no reason. You assume even if you know I can do much more than killing people on a siege, that I'm not worth more than that. Poor argumentation again coming from a guild leader of a well respected guild. I would be glad to take you in 1v1 anytime if you want to prove me wrong though. Oh wait, VE doesn't take guild or 1v1me brah challenges. My bad.

Zheg · January 2016

WRX wrote: »

@Zheg I do agree with that TTK will be lower, hard to argue it won't. Overall fights I think might be slower paced though, and keep takes will be a lot more thought out and will really depend on how a defending group is set up. And in the same way, removal of AoE caps would have a profound change on TTK as well.

IMO we will see offensive strats for taking keeps that I have only ever seen two guilds run. I am sure others may have done it, but not that I remember.

Hopefully forward camps will allow for more fights that last longer as well.

That's part of the issue though, I still expect aoe caps to be removed on TOP of all of the current planned changes that will be reducing TTK. Even though the playerbase mentions it daily and acts like it won't be moved on, I honestly can't see how wrobel can keep the cap in game much longer given the backlash. Furthermore, every single goal that these changes is trying to achieve can be done so without obliterating the TTK, and therefore I see no reason to cheer the current changes on.

Barrier rotation is a problem? As I said before, they could have reduced the shield effectiveness if cast rapidly back to back. Accomplishes the same goal without making the skill useless.

Small groups struggle against larger groups? They SHOULD to some extent - in the interest of working to help give them more opportunities to win, the better approach is to eliminate the aoe cap, not introduce ridiculous siege changes.

Players stacking up is a problem? Well, don't have every skill in the game benefit from being condensed. Putting your group in one spot will be death in the upcoming patch, but wrobel in his infinite tunnel vision hasn't made any announcement about a rework of veil, nova, negate, banner, etc. which all require people to be in one spot for at least a few seconds. The result, as I said earlier, will just be everyone running bats.

As it is right now, I can prox up our group, run into another group and drop ults, and the fight is literally over in 2 seconds. This will be even shorter next patch. I hardly see how that's skillful gameplay, or how it's overall better than what we currently have considering the supposed goals for the patch aren't really being achieved and could have been accomplished without breaking 5 other things.

The 'constructive' response to pointing out the inherent flaws in these changes and how the same goal can be achieved through other means = get good. Considering that I can take a small man and sometimes wipe a larger coordinated group, and Jules says it's impossible, should my response be to "get good"? Yeah, I didn't think so. It's one thing to want fixes in the upcoming patch, it's entirely another to be willfully oblivious the problems they cause (not pointing a finger at you, just at the general responses in this and the other recent threads).

Zheg · January 2016

On a completely unrelated note, I think we can all agree that frozn, bulb, and myself should never be allowed in the same thread again considering our wall of text natures.

Huckdabuck · January 2016

To answer Bulbybear.....

Any other game which doesn't cause me to rage quit after playing for less than 10 minutes due to incompetent devs.

frozywozy · January 2016

x99Needles wrote: »

Let's even say I run 16 to stop all lag, (as Frozen has promised me).

Next time you talk about me, make sure to quote me using @frozywozy. Unless you don't want me to read it since you are talking over your head? Maybe.

I've never said that if you run in a 16men group, it is going to stop all lag. You are making up my words to try to make me look bad, once more. Here are the causes of server latency as I previously said them several times :

1) Too many players on the screen at once (30-40+)

2) Too many aoe calculations at once (no matter where it happens on the map)

3) Anti-bot system

Stop assuming things I've said without any proof or fact on the table, this is getting old. Running in a 16men group alleviate aoe calculations and help the server catching up. It is not the ultimate solution to all of our problems. It is however, something that us, as players, can encourage to help performances and make it more enjoyable for everybody in the end. Quality over quantity (until they fix performance issues). Then you are free to do whatever you like.

frozywozy · January 2016

Satiar wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

"Leovolao wrote: »

"Yes! By all means let's have more people in the vecinity of a keep so we can enjoy the flawless performance this game has!

We'll have to see how the replacement version of FCs work out in practice. But, there is at least the possibility that their return will encourage groups to move deeper into enemy territory. That would spread out the population and (hopefully) lower lag.

Does no one remember massive pile ups at BRK , Alessia and Chal *With* forward camps in full swing?

I think they should make camps an offensive strategy only. It shouldn't be possible to deploy them near your own faction keeps.

NativeJoe · January 2016

" The players can take part in capturing castles and fortresses with the use of siege engines or take over mines, farms, etc. Up to 200 players can participate"

Remember this? Well it's been 2 years...and they still cannot support their original advertisements... And they also said it's "not" a hardware issue, and we should stop grouping up together because it puts stress on the server. So... It is a FACT, they cannot support Cyrodil pvp on the PC. It is also a FACT , this game was created for consoles and we are permanent beta testers for the consoles.

They don't have any intention of fixing the bugs surrounding this game. that was made abundantly clear when we went free to play. Because you don't have a budget or incentive to work on bugs because you cannot package bug fixes and sell them...so the only thing you can do, is pave over them with new content and hope people just ignore the now permanent "features".
A great example is pets for sorcs... not only has the class not been supported or viable since vr 12, the pets AI is buggy , unresponsive, sometimes they can't even inflict damage via detonation, they sometimes will break stealth to attack Banner bosses in IC (reported bug, but ignored since public test server.) the latest bug with pets...they seem to just get lost or stuck or spawn inside rocks so if your going from point a to point b, they show up as summoned but simply arn't there fighting with you. No doubt these are permanent features now... what adds to the insult is accourding to ZOS they seem to need infinite nerfing considering they do just about 1-3k dps (depending on crits)if you have both up(consumes 2 slots, and if u want 4k dps from them u can slot daedric prey for a total of 3 slots! and if u want them to survive long enough to actually do that damage you need to keep ward up so 4 slots!) and 54k mana and 100 champion points into elemental damage.
here's a list : http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213734/bugs-compendium-of-current-bugs-exploits-maintained-daily#latest

They need to just split up cyrodil into small skirmish servers. ESO cannot pull off large scale combat. period. The Lag, bugs, and "features" are here to stay.

Satiar · January 2016

If you think 8 players makes any noticeable or measurable difference than I dont think there's anymore to be said from my side of things. It's so rediculously and obviously wrong I just can't even.

It's one of the reasons ive mostly given up arguing with you Frozn. People who actually play in groups every day say something and than you come in with "I only small manned for this past year and never run in big groups but here is why you are and all your firsthand knowledge on the matter are wrong".

At a certain point it just becomes tiring to continually educate you about group and combat mechanics when you've clearly made up your mind and wish to continue worshipping the great god whose name is 16-man, and fearing the devil that causes all evil, the mighty and evil Ball Group.

Though I could swear to Dee Tick the magic number used to be 12, I'll have to go into an archeological expedition to your post history to find when and how the swap happened. I wonder if I'll stumble over those old posts defending EP guilds from accusations of creating lag with thier "blobs"

Satiar · January 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

"Leovolao wrote: »

"Yes! By all means let's have more people in the vecinity of a keep so we can enjoy the flawless performance this game has!

We'll have to see how the replacement version of FCs work out in practice. But, there is at least the possibility that their return will encourage groups to move deeper into enemy territory. That would spread out the population and (hopefully) lower lag.

Does no one remember massive pile ups at BRK , Alessia and Chal *With* forward camps in full swing?

I think they should make camps an offensive strategy only. It shouldn't be possible to deploy them near your own faction keeps.

Swarming keeps with respawns is horrible gameplay and I'll stand by that.

x99Needles · January 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

90% of your reply is pure insults, bashing and denying the thruth by stating opinions instead of facts but we will get into it point by point and try to clarify it with maturity and constructive critism (something you and some VE members obviously can't do when people disagree with you).

x99Needles wrote: »

Coming from someone who doesn't know how to keep to his word in any sense, I hope you don't expect me to take you seriously. Also, quoting me repeating my point in a different context and asking if I can be more contradictory? Can you be more ignorant?

In a first time, you try to make people realize that Cyrodiil is in a poor state and that we should know by now that the game cannot currently operate as was intended (too many players on the screen at once or too many aoe calculations at the same time or the anti-bot system), and then 6paragraphs later you complain because people are shaming large groups for playing the way it was intended. There is no "Frozen you are out of context". This is plain simple. Quoted your words.

You are on the forums in different threads constantly changing your opinion on multiple matters, seems the only real thing you can hold yourself to is whatever tickles your fancy in the immediate moment.

I am unsure about where and when I have been changing my opinion on multiple matters. I stick to the same points and have been promoting them for years (helping server performances - promoting quality gameplay over stacking more numbers) - just see my signature, it's all there. Feel free to enlight me about what you're reffering to. I'm afraid you are only bringing assumptions without facts which doesn't prove anything.

Upcoming prox det changes will not result in any different effect than there is now. Ball groups will use it, it will be most effective in 24 man raids no matter how you look at it.

Which part of "Zenimax plans to redesign Prox Det in the next major update to deal minimal damage to few players and lot more than before to several players. This is how it should have worked since the beginning. It will still be a tool for large group against large group play and it will help smaller groups/solo players against larger groups." did you not get? You simply replied to this by stating a thruth you think is absolute without giving any argument or making any sense. Try again.

As for running 16, I'll only run 16 when the game's group size is reduced. You mention max pop across all three factions, do you think everyone else runs around in 16 man groups? I'm the only one in cyrodiil that runs 24? Everything would be just fine if I ran 16? If you want smaller groups, take it up with ZOS.

As for running 16, I'll only run 16 when the game's group size is reduced.

You will only run a 16men group when the game's group size is reduced. @speeez - Could you link me a @fengrush 's sigh meme in here please? Could we know your reasoning behind this? Not that I didn't expect it, I knew that even if I begged you it would not change your mind whatsoever.

I've never said that I think everyone else runs around in a 16 man group. You are making up my words. I've never said that everything would be fine if you ran with a 16men group. You are making my words once again. I simply suggested that you give it a try with 16 players and go fight another group of 16 players with plenty of players on the screen (40)+. Your ping will spike for sure because of too many players on the screen, but I assure you it will never spike as much as when two groups of 24 players run into each other (1200-2000ms), as we saw yesterday at Farragut when DC got their scroll back.

I've got plenty of great fights on Azura 16vs16 and it was epic. I even recorded some and would be happy to upload them for you if you really want me to. There is a huge different between 16vs16 and 24vs24 gameplay in a campaign max pop.

"By playing intelligently." Frozen. You are reaching levels of stupidity I cannot begin to fathom. You seriously think running 16 is going to stop ALL lag? Are you that naive?

Ok. You quote me saying "By playing intelligently" and relate it to me reffering to playing in a 16men group. Let's link my sentence now and see if you make any sense.

By playing intelligently, I mean by that to communicate with other guilds constantly and hit different objectives.

Good try again, but I think you got confused a little bit trying to refute my point.

"You, you cannot play the game inside this keep because 16 ppl are already here. Sorry, you'll have to run somewhere else or log off." Seriously frozen, use that brain of yours, you have a degree remember? But hey, 8 more players in a group is the difference between 800ping and playable. I hope people read this and laugh at how ridiculous you sound.

Here you quote me saying something that I've never stated in my thread "You, you cannot play the game inside this keep because 16 ppl are already here. Sorry, you'll have to run somewhere else or log off."

You are so out of arguments that you gotta make up sentences that I supposedly said? I don't even mean this in any other way. What you said doesn't even reflect what I think. Your insults and tries to make me look bad are outrageous, I don't even know what to think. pfft

The Siege damage changes being implemented to further damage players is because we only siege one wall down? ....???????????????????? So when siege does more damage Against Players...we will somehow be forced to knock more walls down...?????????????????? Siege damage is being increased on players. Not walls. I don't even know what else to say, you have the least amount of logic in your posts it's getting to the point of bad for my blood pressure.

Ok. Again, a paragraph full of insults, bashing, words twisting and assumptions. Let's go back to my original post and figure this out like adults, shall we?

The way it is right now, an organized 24men group can easily get inside a keep without too many complications as long as people in the group follow these simply basics :

1) Stay stacked
2) Use Barrier
3) Have people spamming purges
4) Have someone popping maneuvers once and have everyone in the group not dealing any damage

If you follow these 4 instructions, siege will barely tickle you in any scenario. This is the actual meta. Now people have been asking for changes to make going inside the courtyard or going inside an inner keep harder than it actually is. I have never seen in any scenario in the world (game or movie related), attacker going inside a breach as easily as in this game. It is a joke. People who say that keeps are easy to defend have no idea what they're talking about. Now back to your post, you generalize saying that I think siege damage changes are being put in place to bring down additional walls which make me doubt if I'm the one learning english still or you. Then you say "Siege damage is being increased on players. Not walls" which prove how badly you misinterpret my point on purpose. Nothing else to add really. Just go read again my original post.

Even if we wanted to knock more walls down, how is that going to fix anything related to what I'm worried about? You're just going to stack fire balista, meat bags, and oil cats, with oil on the ledges inside the inner. You know, the choke with only two walls. Or have you forgotten keep layouts already?

As I previously said, if you want to capture a keep, you should scout it properly in the first time (not aim the one next to the transit line), otherwise expect alot of defense and a very challenging fight. Not saying it is not the right thing to do but with the actual server performances, I barely try anymore. Latency gets way too harsh. If you like that kind of stuff and lag doesn't bother you, then go for it, your call. But you should not expect to be able to drive your 24men ballgroup inside a breach without troubles when people are HIGHLY defending it. A defending position should always have the advantage. It is not the fact right now. There is no counter to purge spamming and maneuvers. A ball group can easily gets inside a single breach and out maneuvers all sieges and defenses in place.

With the next siege meta, even if I'm very disappointed they are not making siege unpurgable, there are several great points such as faster balista rotation which will help deal with ballgroups typical marathon runners. I think they should have decrease the ressource damage by half though. They can still change their mind, it is not even on the PTS yet.

I think the only reason you want these siege changes is because like most others who want it, its the only way you kill things.

Again, another free insult for no reason. You assume even if you know I can do much more than killing people on a siege, that I'm not worth more than that. Poor argumentation again coming from a guild leader of a well respected guild. I would be glad to take you in 1v1 anytime if you want to prove me wrong though. Oh wait, VE doesn't take guild or 1v1me brah challenges. My bad.

My comparison to the game cannot work as intended and saying we are shaming people for ball groups has literally nothing to do with contradicting myself. You assumed that I meant because the game can't handle it we should not run large groups, when I have only supported large groups and their right to be in cyrodiil. Also, when the basis of your argument is to quote me several paragraphs apart in my argument when I have moved on to talking about something else in my post is neither logical nor supportable. It seem you're incapable of understanding. I did not create this thread to argue with the likes of you frozn.

On top of your argument that we should scout a keep before immediately heading for it? So we should only hit a keep when its empty to avoid actual defenders and you know, acutally pvping. Because that's what that suggests. You are pretty much saying if we don't want to deal with defenders we shouldn't attack when its being defended. Brilliant Frozn. Strategist of the year award. Except some of us actually like PvPing in Cyrodiil, the pvp zone. We want the tough fights, what we don't want is biased balance changes for the sake of QQ.

Your're still trying to argue that as long as I'm fighting a 16 man with my 16 man it doesn't matter how many players are on screen it wont lag as bad....There is nothing I can even respond with at this point, its like arguing with a child. You are simply wrong and anyone with common sense can see it. We agree that ball groups are very effective right now and changes should be made, had you read my post thoroughly and been able to comprehend what I am suggesting you might have seen that.

What I have been trying to get across is that defense should not be so much easier simply because offense is too easy now. That is not an appropriate response in terms of balance, its an ignorant nerf hammer because people have cried "OP". A little math for you as well, but first some history! We have changed the Skill Prox Det, 2x. Two Times Already. We completely altered the way the skill was cast, and we have scaled damage to how many targets it hits. Both attempts to bring the skill into line with what they want have failed. But third time charm right?!

Now for the math frozn. 24 > 1. 24 Prox Dets armed in an area = AoE Damage that is barely matched by anything else. 1 Prox Det = very poor damage, easily healed through, barely noticeable. Now, this stays this way until you scale it up to about ten players, then you are starting to get a dangerous prox group. Prox Det is only dangerous when utilized by a group. Period. Keep changing it, to fix it you would need to break it. You want a zerg buster skill? They had an amazing one inside Frag Shield. Broke that real quick, or as most would prefer, "balanced" it.

Bringing up the fact that VE did not attend the GvG event is also completely unrelated and gives me a good laugh. Especially coming from someone who doesn't even have a real guild, for obvious reasons. I also think you just challenged me to a 1v1 on the forums, I can add that to the list of laughable things you've done starting with this year.

You should also really really take the time to learn proper English and reading comprehension. You made so many errors quoting my last post and assuming that I'm not quite sure what you were attempting. It is clear you need a refresher. Does not seem you understand the meaning of "implications" nor their practice in the English language either. As badly as I want to post a Let it Go meme, I'll leave you with your poor logic and inability to understand how this game actually works and moving forward what is going to happen in cyrodiil. I am left with nothing constructive to say to you. We will have to agree to disagree, I will refuse to argue with you further but feel free to respond. In truth*(not thruth) we should both just Let it Go.

x99Needles · January 2016

WRX wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes as I have said before. Bulb brings up some valid points that he has vehemently (see that *** there?) defended, so I feel those have been covered pretty well.

Here is the good part. Siege will be buffed again damage wise. I remember setting up traps late night with tea pot, tbois, dshotz, and a few others. Kite zergs around the corner, one ballista shot and bomb. Boom goes 20 people. That to me is exciting. Same with oils on rocks. Love it.

So many players don't use siege, and don't adapt (the not top guilds), that I am excited for the small scale side again. The dps opportunities now are so much better overall, and that is really what it need. A high damage thing, with no aoe caps. Unfortunately it has to be siege, but its better than nothing.

What is kinda lame is the source drain value is so high, but such is life. Twice born with double serpert on my sorc for group play. Meh, ill do it, but not really, just adds alot of versatility.

We will see how it goes. People had the same thoughts about siege buffs before, and it was rough for a week. But once we started bombing the people up top of a keep with trebs, or my favorite, shooting front flag right from outside, it started to work in our favor again.

What you just posted is entirely what's wrong with the changes. You just named 4 maybe 6 people running around a corner setting siege and with one click killing 20 people. That's exciting gameplay to you? What is being proposed is the best way to play will be siege. Why do we run steel tornado? hm? Why do we prox det? Because its the best source of damage in the lowest amount of time. So if you change that to be siege, what happens? Left-Click Meta. But hey, you find mindlessly clicking a button the most enjoyable form of gameplay. To each his own. You also mention the siege buff changes before, yet neglected to mention how they were reverted because, bad idea. If the best way to play this game is going to be siege, not only will it be boring but the fights will come down to who's defending. Stalest meta yet.

Elong · January 2016

WRX · January 2016

x99Needles wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes as I have said before. Bulb brings up some valid points that he has vehemently (see that *** there?) defended, so I feel those have been covered pretty well.

Here is the good part. Siege will be buffed again damage wise. I remember setting up traps late night with tea pot, tbois, dshotz, and a few others. Kite zergs around the corner, one ballista shot and bomb. Boom goes 20 people. That to me is exciting. Same with oils on rocks. Love it.

So many players don't use siege, and don't adapt (the not top guilds), that I am excited for the small scale side again. The dps opportunities now are so much better overall, and that is really what it need. A high damage thing, with no aoe caps. Unfortunately it has to be siege, but its better than nothing.

What is kinda lame is the source drain value is so high, but such is life. Twice born with double serpert on my sorc for group play. Meh, ill do it, but not really, just adds alot of versatility.

We will see how it goes. People had the same thoughts about siege buffs before, and it was rough for a week. But once we started bombing the people up top of a keep with trebs, or my favorite, shooting front flag right from outside, it started to work in our favor again.

What you just posted is entirely what's wrong with the changes. You just named 4 maybe 6 people running around a corner setting siege and with one click killing 20 people. That's exciting gameplay to you? What is being proposed is the best way to play will be siege. Why do we run steel tornado? hm? Why do we prox det? Because its the best source of damage in the lowest amount of time. So if you change that to be siege, what happens? Left-Click Meta. But hey, you find mindlessly clicking a button the most enjoyable form of gameplay. To each his own. You also mention the siege buff changes before, yet neglected to mention how they were reverted because, bad idea. If the best way to play this game is going to be siege, not only will it be boring but the fights will come down to who's defending. Stalest meta yet.

No, clicking LMB won't wipe anything. But a decent size group of 6-8 that can bring groups into chokes or traps and time burst with the ballista, is exciting. It is a tool, and when VE used to complain to Deci about our use of siege my only reply was essentially "You can cripple your groups by ignoring a vital mechanic, but others wont". You guys have always hated siege, openly said so. Having an option to deal ~7k damage that is uncapped is something myself, and many other people will find exciting.

It has nothing to do with mindless anything, not the way myself described or how elite groups will use them. It will add new wrinkles to the game, more mechanics, something I believe it needs. You can belittle it if you want, and plenty of people will just pew pew, but these things are not what I described nor what I find exciting.

Would also just like to add a little knowledge here. ZoS never nerfed siege damage after buffing it, at least they never publicly said so. What did happen was resource pools went way up, and siege damage was not adjusted properly. In fact, after doing a quick search through all the patch notes back to Oct. 2014, no were did it mention reduction in siege damage and only damage changes was in increase with emperor other than the increase from the past. If I missed something, I am sure someone will correct me.

All these other changes in combination will play a factor, but we will just have to see how things go.

krim · January 2016

I predict we will be back here with new threads saying how bad pvp still is. Jules thread will be at 60 pages because magicka DKs will still be dead.

Satiar · January 2016

Oh God the old Deci siege spec. Yeah, was not a fan. On this we are consistent lol, we have always hated siege.

Teargrants · January 2016

Satiar wrote: »

Oh God the old Deci siege spec. Yeah, was not a fan. On this we are consistent lol, we have always hated siege.

Hate siege because we love Keep Walls.

Jules · January 2016

krim wrote: »

I predict we will be back here with new threads saying how bad pvp still is. Jules thread will be at 60 pages because magicka DKs will still be dead.

lol god plz no. Would much rather see mag dks alive and well

Teargrants · January 2016

Jules wrote: »

krim wrote: »

I predict we will be back here with new threads saying how bad pvp still is. Jules thread will be at 60 pages because magicka DKs will still be dead.

lol god plz no. Would much rather see mag dks alive and well

No worries, your Pact Trebs are in the mail. Siege will be magickal in the next update, I hear.

Talcyndl · January 2016

Satiar wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

"Leovolao wrote: »

"Yes! By all means let's have more people in the vecinity of a keep so we can enjoy the flawless performance this game has!

We'll have to see how the replacement version of FCs work out in practice. But, there is at least the possibility that their return will encourage groups to move deeper into enemy territory. That would spread out the population and (hopefully) lower lag.

Does no one remember massive pile ups at BRK , Alessia and Chal *With* forward camps in full swing?

New forward camps will not be spammable in the same way (cooldown on rezzing). Nor will they allow blood porting (limited range). So not really useful to cite examples of what happened with the old camps.

Leovolao · January 2016

Talcyndl wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

"Leovolao wrote: »

"Yes! By all means let's have more people in the vecinity of a keep so we can enjoy the flawless performance this game has!

We'll have to see how the replacement version of FCs work out in practice. But, there is at least the possibility that their return will encourage groups to move deeper into enemy territory. That would spread out the population and (hopefully) lower lag.

Does no one remember massive pile ups at BRK , Alessia and Chal *With* forward camps in full swing?

New forward camps will not be spammable in the same way (cooldown on rezzing). Nor will they allow blood porting (limited range). So not really useful to cite examples of what happened with the old camps.

You are still gonna get the people rezzing at the camp plus the guys trickling in as the siege goes on and on. That doesn't sound like a good idea atm, that server hamster gets tired rather fast you know? Maybe I'm missing something, maybe the lag will end and dears will be back to roam the map. Guess all we can do wait and see.

RinaldoGandolphi · January 2016

They need to just make a Vet Version of Blackwater Blade and be done with it. the other night the was easily almost 200 people at Aleswell(between the 3 factions) and lag was zero, no red ping, no FPS drop below 35, nothing, everyone was using skills, most fun fights i have had since summer of 2014.

Common Denominator? Stuff dies fast in BB. Either you take the keep, or you get rekted by siege quickly, none of this ball group running around immune to this nonsense...if you stand under a door their getting oil poured on you, chances are our dead fast. This is exactly how the game was when it launched. ZOS made big mistakes nerfing siege weapons shortly after launch, they even should have left ground oils in the game...yes at level 12 i remember dropping an Oil in a 1v1 and ground oiling a guy 30 levels higher then me LOL!

Point is, in Blackwater Blade Barrier and Purge spam isn't there as a crutch to allow ball groups to live far longer then they should when they are standing in stuff they shouldn't be. This means they can't overload the server with message requests because fights end pretty fast. It has nothing to do with unlocking passives, these ball groups can't overload the server because when they stand in the breech in BB in siege fire they get rekted like they used to before they fixed Purge in 1.5 and before everyone unlocked Barrier....

Barrier was such a dumb idea to begin with...allowing 20 or so people to get a 15-20k sheild...dio you realize how broken that garbage is with the AOE caps, its just outright atrocious...

NeillMcAttack · January 2016

A couple things I would like to say. And know that I play on console.

The buff to siege is definitely required (except oil pots). As right now a tiny 4 or 5 man group can just tank them and sustain heal through them. But to be perfectly fair, the fact that ZOS decided to revert this solely to help deal with lag inducing situations (avoided the word Zerg see) gives me absolute zero confidence in this game, whilst being designed for GvG, ever being able to handle it anytime in the future. It also tells me that ZOS have no idea if this will even have a marginal effect on performance.
This is very worrying and something I have thought about many times. The fixes and balances they are implementing in the short term likely will not have any effect whatsoever on performance. Let that sink in for a moment. They are changing mechanics, trying to spread players out, and disallowing (as far as I understand it) some solo players from being able to contribute abilities just because they aren't grouped?!?!

Now last night on PS4 EU, round 10-11pm. Azura's star pop locked across all 3 factions, laggy and unplayable. Thorn blade, capped for reds, one bar of yellows, no blue. Chilrend, capped for blues, two bars of reds, one bar yellows. Scourge, pop locked for reds, no other faction bar. All campaigns besides Azura's have incredibly smooth gameplay, next to zero delays, basically everything people want from the large population campaigns. What I am getting at is this;

It seems far too obvious to me, and if you disagree please let me know why, but shouldn't they have simply reduced the numbers allowed inside campaigns as a REAL short term fix. Spreading out population into other campaigns only brings about choice of balanced server IMO and most importantly a game that actually functions.

Is it so obvious that it must be wrong? Are ZOS stringing us along because without an example of broken large scale PvP, it would be harder to find a solution, even if one doesn't exist? Am I losing my mind? Let me know.

Zheg · January 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

They need to just make a Vet Version of Blackwater Blade and be done with it. the other night the was easily almost 200 people at Aleswell(between the 3 factions) and lag was zero, no red ping, no FPS drop below 35, nothing, everyone was using skills, most fun fights i have had since summer of 2014.

Common Denominator? Stuff dies fast in BB. Either you take the keep, or you get rekted by siege quickly, none of this ball group running around immune to this nonsense...if you stand under a door their getting oil poured on you, chances are our dead fast. This is exactly how the game was when it launched. ZOS made big mistakes nerfing siege weapons shortly after launch, they even should have left ground oils in the game...yes at level 12 i remember dropping an Oil in a 1v1 and ground oiling a guy 30 levels higher then me LOL!

Point is, in Blackwater Blade Barrier and Purge spam isn't there as a crutch to allow ball groups to live far longer then they should when they are standing in stuff they shouldn't be. This means they can't overload the server with message requests because fights end pretty fast. It has nothing to do with unlocking passives, these ball groups can't overload the server because when they stand in the breech in BB in siege fire they get rekted like they used to before they fixed Purge in 1.5 and before everyone unlocked Barrier....

Barrier was such a dumb idea to begin with...allowing 20 or so people to get a 15-20k sheild...dio you realize how broken that garbage is with the AOE caps, its just outright atrocious...

Weren't tons of people complaining when IC dropped that BWB resulted in fights taking forever because of the battle spirit changes and how no one had enough damage to kill in a timely manner? So which is it? Do people take forever to kill, or are they dying in a second? It can't be both. Moreover, as I said a few posts back, if the only solution is to make pvp fights end in a second or two and turn this into a FPS, ffs just throw in the towel and close the servers.

Furthermore, you, like many others, keep referring to groups as derogatory 'ball groups', blame them for all of the lag, and suddenly go quiet when someone points out the obvious - if ball groups are the cause of the lag, how is it that two full raids can collide and have lag free fights on empty campaigns or on the main campaigns so long as there aren't tons of other people present there (or tons of other people colliding somewhere else on the map)? I've asked this question dozens of times, and just get ignored because the only logical answer is that whether people are within 15m of each other or more spread out, the main cause of the lag is derived from total people in an area - you (and the others that keep repeating that false line), just don't want to venture into that piece of evidence because you know what it means. If it's the 'ball group' - people standing relatively close to each other instead of in a relative area, they should be causing lag each and every time they fight, everywhere they fight, and that is so far from the truth it's laughable that people keep parroting the same BS talking point because you heard someone else say it and want to be trendy.

As to your barrier point, I've always thought shields in this game were ridiculous, overpowered, and a poor mechanic - but given how the entire rest of the battle system operates, shields are so intertwined that there's no way to eliminate them with the super high damage in game and given that some classes (sorcs) are almost entirely dependent on them if you aren't stam. It could certainly be revamped, but there's no way wrobel would actually do it. That's why there is so much backlash over the barrier changes, he's revamping one skill when he should be revamping the entire mitigation system.

Moglijuana · January 2016

Jules wrote: »

krim wrote: »

I predict we will be back here with new threads saying how bad pvp still is. Jules thread will be at 60 pages because magicka DKs will still be dead.

lol god plz no. Would much rather see mag dks alive and well

ZOS PLZ

Minno · January 2016

Zheg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

They need to just make a Vet Version of Blackwater Blade and be done with it. the other night the was easily almost 200 people at Aleswell(between the 3 factions) and lag was zero, no red ping, no FPS drop below 35, nothing, everyone was using skills, most fun fights i have had since summer of 2014.

Common Denominator? Stuff dies fast in BB. Either you take the keep, or you get rekted by siege quickly, none of this ball group running around immune to this nonsense...if you stand under a door their getting oil poured on you, chances are our dead fast. This is exactly how the game was when it launched. ZOS made big mistakes nerfing siege weapons shortly after launch, they even should have left ground oils in the game...yes at level 12 i remember dropping an Oil in a 1v1 and ground oiling a guy 30 levels higher then me LOL!

Point is, in Blackwater Blade Barrier and Purge spam isn't there as a crutch to allow ball groups to live far longer then they should when they are standing in stuff they shouldn't be. This means they can't overload the server with message requests because fights end pretty fast. It has nothing to do with unlocking passives, these ball groups can't overload the server because when they stand in the breech in BB in siege fire they get rekted like they used to before they fixed Purge in 1.5 and before everyone unlocked Barrier....

Barrier was such a dumb idea to begin with...allowing 20 or so people to get a 15-20k sheild...dio you realize how broken that garbage is with the AOE caps, its just outright atrocious...

Weren't tons of people complaining when IC dropped that BWB resulted in fights taking forever because of the battle spirit changes and how no one had enough damage to kill in a timely manner? So which is it? Do people take forever to kill, or are they dying in a second? It can't be both. Moreover, as I said a few posts back, if the only solution is to make pvp fights end in a second or two and turn this into a FPS, ffs just throw in the towel and close the servers.

Furthermore, you, like many others, keep referring to groups as derogatory 'ball groups', blame them for all of the lag, and suddenly go quiet when someone points out the obvious - if ball groups are the cause of the lag, how is it that two full raids can collide and have lag free fights on empty campaigns or on the main campaigns so long as there aren't tons of other people present there (or tons of other people colliding somewhere else on the map)? I've asked this question dozens of times, and just get ignored because the only logical answer is that whether people are within 15m of each other or more spread out, the main cause of the lag is derived from total people in an area - you (and the others that keep repeating that false line), just don't want to venture into that piece of evidence because you know what it means. If it's the 'ball group' - people standing relatively close to each other instead of in a relative area, they should be causing lag each and every time they fight, everywhere they fight, and that is so far from the truth it's laughable that people keep parroting the same BS talking point because you heard someone else say it and want to be trendy.

As to your barrier point, I've always thought shields in this game were ridiculous, overpowered, and a poor mechanic - but given how the entire rest of the battle system operates, shields are so intertwined that there's no way to eliminate them given the super high damage in game and given that some classes (sorcs) are almost entirely dependent on them if you aren't stam. It could certainly be revamped, but there's no way wrobel would actually do it. That's why there is so much backlash over the barrier changes, he's revamping one skill when he should be revamping the entire mitigation system.

1) players complained because individual players were harder to kill making fights last longer. Group formatting in BWB is closer to loose raid formation than what we call competitive vet pvp. Can't compare the two when discussing actual dmg mechanics because they operate differently due to not having purge or barrier. Fight last long individually but when two factions face each other fights are determined by class ulti coordinated attacks and theirs constant push back. I doubt its as doom and gloom as you state. On BWB you get yellow ping for players present, but it never goes above that and fights are closer to how game functioned at launch than the vet ranks play now.

2) ball groups argument keeps being shuffled around because of the fact players continue to feel the strain near one on a populated server. I don't blame them, since their are simply observing. The "one vs one group alone" argument seems faulty for two reasons: a) vacuum condition that only 48 people can attest to. B)still no mention on measurement of how many messages the server can actual handle. It's likely no lag present due to the fact the server can handle the purge between two groups and if there are no other fight factors (I.e. another raid, solo players,siege, etc) then I can assume the fight didn't last very long under these conditions because both groups concentrated on themselves resulting in quick efficient death versus normal fight conditions. But if the issue was players being around players, why doesn't BWB have this red ping issue? Hence why players point at ball group mechanics; their inclusion in any fight results in players noticing higher pings than normal.

3) barrier has no drawback in its use. Class shield do (exception of sorcs other than breaking their stam). Barrier can buff everyone in the AOE range, gives 20k extra "health" , only uses one ulti slot, and it requires purge/barrier to counter. It's removal shouldn't cause a review of current class shields and removal of shields entirely would move the game closer to the FPS mentality you mentioned. Barrier does not match the pro/con mentality of an RPG.

WRX · January 2016

They completely reworked the battle leveling system overall with orsinium (I think), including BWB. People used to have 35k hp, 18k stam/mp and identical stats.

Now, and I am not joking, the highest DPS you can get on a toon at any point is when they are around level 40, in legendary gear, with willpower/agility items.

Takllin · January 2016

WRX wrote: »

They completely reworked the battle leveling system overall with orsinium (I think), including BWB. People used to have 35k hp, 18k stam/mp and identical stats.

Now, and I am not joking, the highest DPS you can get on a toon at any point is when they are around level 40, in legendary gear, with willpower/agility items.

Yeah they finally started to take all gear and attributes into account, which was a much needed change.

Also, I am and also am not surprised if that's true, knowing ZOS.

Zheg · January 2016

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

They need to just make a Vet Version of Blackwater Blade and be done with it. the other night the was easily almost 200 people at Aleswell(between the 3 factions) and lag was zero, no red ping, no FPS drop below 35, nothing, everyone was using skills, most fun fights i have had since summer of 2014.

Common Denominator? Stuff dies fast in BB. Either you take the keep, or you get rekted by siege quickly, none of this ball group running around immune to this nonsense...if you stand under a door their getting oil poured on you, chances are our dead fast. This is exactly how the game was when it launched. ZOS made big mistakes nerfing siege weapons shortly after launch, they even should have left ground oils in the game...yes at level 12 i remember dropping an Oil in a 1v1 and ground oiling a guy 30 levels higher then me LOL!

Point is, in Blackwater Blade Barrier and Purge spam isn't there as a crutch to allow ball groups to live far longer then they should when they are standing in stuff they shouldn't be. This means they can't overload the server with message requests because fights end pretty fast. It has nothing to do with unlocking passives, these ball groups can't overload the server because when they stand in the breech in BB in siege fire they get rekted like they used to before they fixed Purge in 1.5 and before everyone unlocked Barrier....

Barrier was such a dumb idea to begin with...allowing 20 or so people to get a 15-20k sheild...dio you realize how broken that garbage is with the AOE caps, its just outright atrocious...

Weren't tons of people complaining when IC dropped that BWB resulted in fights taking forever because of the battle spirit changes and how no one had enough damage to kill in a timely manner? So which is it? Do people take forever to kill, or are they dying in a second? It can't be both. Moreover, as I said a few posts back, if the only solution is to make pvp fights end in a second or two and turn this into a FPS, ffs just throw in the towel and close the servers.

Furthermore, you, like many others, keep referring to groups as derogatory 'ball groups', blame them for all of the lag, and suddenly go quiet when someone points out the obvious - if ball groups are the cause of the lag, how is it that two full raids can collide and have lag free fights on empty campaigns or on the main campaigns so long as there aren't tons of other people present there (or tons of other people colliding somewhere else on the map)? I've asked this question dozens of times, and just get ignored because the only logical answer is that whether people are within 15m of each other or more spread out, the main cause of the lag is derived from total people in an area - you (and the others that keep repeating that false line), just don't want to venture into that piece of evidence because you know what it means. If it's the 'ball group' - people standing relatively close to each other instead of in a relative area, they should be causing lag each and every time they fight, everywhere they fight, and that is so far from the truth it's laughable that people keep parroting the same BS talking point because you heard someone else say it and want to be trendy.

As to your barrier point, I've always thought shields in this game were ridiculous, overpowered, and a poor mechanic - but given how the entire rest of the battle system operates, shields are so intertwined that there's no way to eliminate them given the super high damage in game and given that some classes (sorcs) are almost entirely dependent on them if you aren't stam. It could certainly be revamped, but there's no way wrobel would actually do it. That's why there is so much backlash over the barrier changes, he's revamping one skill when he should be revamping the entire mitigation system.

1) players complained because individual players were harder to kill making fights last longer. Group formatting in BWB is closer to loose raid formation than what we call competitive vet pvp. Can't compare the two when discussing actual dmg mechanics because they operate differently due to not having purge or barrier. Fight last long individually but when two factions face each other fights are determined by class ulti coordinated attacks and theirs constant push back. I doubt its as doom and gloom as you state. On BWB you get yellow ping for players present, but it never goes above that and fights are closer to how game functioned at launch than the vet ranks play now.

2) ball groups argument keeps being shuffled around because of the fact players continue to feel the strain near one on a populated server. I don't blame them, since their are simply observing. The "one vs one group alone" argument seems faulty for two reasons: a) vacuum condition that only 48 people can attest to. B)still no mention on measurement of how many messages the server can actual handle. It's likely no lag present due to the fact the server can handle the purge between two groups and if there are no other fight factors (I.e. another raid, solo players,siege, etc) then I can assume the fight didn't last very long under these conditions because both groups concentrated on themselves resulting in quick efficient death versus normal fight conditions. But if the issue was players being around players, why doesn't BWB have this red ping issue? Hence why players point at ball group mechanics; their inclusion in any fight results in players noticing higher pings than normal.

3) barrier has no drawback in its use. Class shield do (exception of sorcs other than breaking their stam). Barrier can buff everyone in the AOE range, gives 20k extra "health" , only uses one ulti slot, and it requires purge/barrier to counter. It's removal shouldn't cause a review of current class shields and removal of shields entirely would move the game closer to the FPS mentality you mentioned. Barrier does not match the pro/con mentality of an RPG.

When IC first came out, we spent about a month fighting with just our 20ish man raid against a large GOS emp group, large swp group, plus pugs. Sometimes there were 50-60 reds against our one raid, in protracted fights with counter siege, and we went so far as to naively think that the IC patch fixed the lag. Know why those TF fights didnt lag and crash the server? Total population was low.

Were you implying since only 48 people could attest to a vacuum condition that they aren't being truthful? I mean, we can dig through recorded fights if you'd like.

Furthermore, the point is, and has been, if people being in a ball is supposed to be the boogie man and the main cause of lag, it should hold true that balls cause lag all the time, and as someone who plays in one nightly and actually has experience to reference in that playstyle, there are certainly times when we don't lag. If balls DON'T cause lag each and every time, then clearly the main culprit is something else, or at least only one ingredient to the lag soup. It's never phrased that way though because it doesn't fit the anti group narrative, and Zos will just keep hearing the same untrue talking point repeated over and over and think, hey, maybe it's the ball! Should their anti lag efforts be focused on groups because that's the narrative a few want pushed? Or should their efforts be focused on the actual lag causes?

I'm open to hearing explanations of why there are times when ball group vs ball group doesn't cause lag if their very nature is supposed to be the cause of said lag, I really am. This is just usually the point where the usual suspects go quiet, avoid the subject, wait for a new thread, and say 'ball groups cause all the lag!' before the cycle repeats.

Minno · January 2016

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

They completely reworked the battle leveling system overall with orsinium (I think), including BWB. People used to have 35k hp, 18k stam/mp and identical stats.

Now, and I am not joking, the highest DPS you can get on a toon at any point is when they are around level 40, in legendary gear, with willpower/agility items.

Yeah they finally started to take all gear and attributes into account, which was a much needed change.

Also, I am and also am not surprised if that's true, knowing ZOS.

Correct. Talks of no CP? I can't remember if that was confirmed for the next dlc or not.