Where Are We Headed?

Satiar

Hektik_V wrote: »

CN_Daniel wrote: »

A plus is a sign that indicates more than. I don't want to shock you...but yes, 72 is more than 50.

It seems like you honestly believe there is a code in the game that goes "if faction ep has emp; ping = 999+"

I'm sorry but there isn't. I can play on Azura's all day with an emperor and it's fine. This unplayable server that you are trying to cleanse by dethroning the emperor is a self fulfilling prophecy because you are the one bringing larger and larger raids to the last emperor keep to ensure a dethrone. Any reasonable raid lead of yesteryear would have systematically ignored the emperor keep; while taking every other resource, scroll and keep on the map while the emperor group and PuGs rot away in the last emperor keep, but that's only if you do actually care about objectives which you claim to.

Nah, I'm sorry man but that's nonsense. Dethrones have been huge affairs since ever.

Zheg

Hektik_V wrote: »

All this was tl:dr. I was replying to Daniel in another thread he post. If your guild has someone in line for emperor it's generally been since launch that your guild would push the ring for you, why you think this has changed is beyond me.

Your first post was the complete opposite of your followup. You weren't talking about your guild pushing the ring, you were talking about how people should leave your already crowned emp alone so you can 'rot' in the last emp keep all night. I pointed out that emps just aren't going to be a thing on azura's any more given how everyone treats them and pushes the dethrone. You clearly seemed to have missed that memo over the past few months - maybe the memo was tl:dr? Red/yellow/blue can still cap when no one is playing, but expecting to hold emp during primetime and for there not to be lag during the dethrone is delusional.

Darnathian

Hektik_V wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

CN_Daniel wrote: »

A plus is a sign that indicates more than. I don't want to shock you...but yes, 72 is more than 50.

It seems like you honestly believe there is a code in the game that goes "if faction ep has emp; ping = 999+"

I'm sorry but there isn't. I can play on Azura's all day with an emperor and it's fine. This unplayable server that you are trying to cleanse by dethroning the emperor is a self fulfilling prophecy because you are the one bringing larger and larger raids to the last emperor keep to ensure a dethrone. Any reasonable raid lead of yesteryear would have systematically ignored the emperor keep; while taking every other resource, scroll and keep on the map while the emperor group and PuGs rot away in the last emperor keep, but that's only if you do actually care about objectives which you claim to.

Of course it's fine during the day, population is low. Going into primetime with an emp and then trying to blame anyone (including daniel) for the ensuing lag is silly. Yellow did most of the work on tonight's dethrone, yet you're still looking to blame daniel, it's bizarre.

I'm surprised you guys are still so gung-*** about emp - they are no where near as powerful as they used to be, I honestly can't remember the last time an emp was capped during primetime when there was legitimate resistance, and dethrones just make the lag go supernova. I'm glad to see there wasn't a repeat of the silly drama from the last dethrone, but seriously, 2 years in, why are people still getting so worked up over getting and keeping emp?

Just play the map when there's resistance, get fights, and pvp ffs. The moral argument you're trying to make about everyone leaving the emp alone for the entire night can easily be turned around on you. If you're intentionally capping when there's minimal resistance on, that's plain pathetic. If you aren't intentionally capping when there's minimal resistance on, you can easily take the 'moral' high ground and just let the dethrone be over with in 5 minutes so the server doesn't have to put up with the dethrone shenanigans and everyone can go back to pvp.

Whenever our raid starts up at primetime, if there's an emp, dethrone is automatically the objective; it seems to be that way for the other blue guilds on azura as well. It also seems to be true for yellow. You can complain if you'd like, or you can just accept that people don't want to put up with emps any more and will just get the dethrone out the way as soon as possible.

It would be a well-received late xmas present from Brian if the next patch said "emperor system is being abandoned because all it does is create drama, exacerbate lag, and funnel players to prioritized objectives".

All this was tl:dr. I was replying to Daniel in another thread he post. If your guild has someone in line for emperor it's generally been since launch that your guild would push the ring for you, why you think this has changed is beyond me.

To be fair this wasnt a legitimate emp push. i logged on at about 11 am and it was down to the last emp keep. EP had an organized raid of at least 20 and there were like 10 random ad.

Night caps and morning caps get people more riled up.

Jules

So wait, let me understand this....
Defending emp = bad, root cause of the lag
Dethroning emp = good, saviors of cyrodiil

lol

Minno

Jules wrote: »

So wait, let me understand this....
Defending emp = bad, root cause of the lag
Dethroning emp = good, saviors of cyrodiil

lol

Lol.

Though I understood that exchange as both are bad (emp status a bad way to organize players away from stacking).

Zheg

Jules wrote: »

So wait, let me understand this....
Defending emp = bad, root cause of the lag
Dethroning emp = good, saviors of cyrodiil

lol

Defending emp and then throwing a tantrum because you were dethroned immediately after = bad, childish.
Dethroning emp = normal

Clear things up for you?

lol

Jules

Zheg wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

So wait, let me understand this....
Defending emp = bad, root cause of the lag
Dethroning emp = good, saviors of cyrodiil

lol

Defending emp and then throwing a tantrum that you were dethroned immediately after = bad, childish.
Dethroning emp = normal

Clear things up for you?

lol

I'm disappointed by the lack of a 7 paragraph response. C-

Zheg

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

So wait, let me understand this....
Defending emp = bad, root cause of the lag
Dethroning emp = good, saviors of cyrodiil

lol

Defending emp and then throwing a tantrum that you were dethroned immediately after = bad, childish.
Dethroning emp = normal

Clear things up for you?

lol

I'm disappointed by the lack of a 7 paragraph response. C-

It doesn't take anywhere near that many words to point out when you're being silly, and if I had to type out that many paragraphs each and every time, well, carpal tunnel is a thing yo.

_Chaos

Defending Emp = Dethroning Emp

The problem is that only the organized guilds know better than to dethrone during prime time, so you still have 100 AD and DC pugs slamming their heads off of Chal which lags out the entire server.



When the entire server is lagged out, you can't play anywhere else on the map.

When you can't play anywhere else on the map, you expedite whatever engagement is lagging the server out.

When that engagement is done and the uninformed players go back to spreading out and hitting two fronts, we have PVP.

Takllin

Jules wrote: »

So wait, let me understand this....
Defending emp = bad, root cause of the lag
Dethroning emp = good, saviors of cyrodiil

lol

I didn't understand it this way. In the other thread there were other dynamics at hand. That discussion should stay and die in that thread. No offense, but there is no reason for the two of you to start your personal pissing contest again in a constructive thread.

I don't get anyone complaining about a dethrone. I really don't. This is nothing new, like Steve and Zheg pointed out. Did people all of the sudden forget what a dethrone is like on the popular campaign? Or want to take some moral high ground where there is none?

Look things happen two ways. Either you dethrone through a *** storm of lag, and go on to take objectives after. Or you take all the objectives after, and the Emp and their group comes back to flip everything once resistance dies down.

If your going for a campaign win, which would you do?

Look, it's no big secret that I don't like Daniel or CN, but he's kinda right here....as much as it hurts to say that. Dethrones are highest priority these days. Why do you think when CN had emp, they'd park everyone in the last Emp keep and defend it all night long? They knew that no matter what was taken from them, as soon as the resistance died down enough that they could come out and take back keeps, they'd get everything back and more with their Emp.

What gets you more points in the long term, gaining 10 each hour for a few hours until the dethrone fails and Emp group takes back what was lost, then losing 30+ for each hour throughout the night and into the morning because the Emp grouped pillaged your shtuff after people logged? Or dethroning and gaining a mediocre amount through the rest of the night and into the morning...

I know what I'd choose. People might not like the strategy, but it's very sound.

BuggeX

x99Needles wrote: »

“just here waiting for the next game DLC to come out and fix stuff.”

Joy_Division

If I ever get Emperor, I'd be highly insulted and indignant if every single player on the map didn't try to detrone me.

Manoekin

We're just arguing to try and win the argument at this point. This is just how things work in this game right now. Why shouldn't you emp a guildmate if you have the chance? Why would you complain about a lot of people coming to dethrone? Why would you complain about a lot of people defending the emp keep? I don't like any of it either, but that's how it works.

As far as I'm concerned both arguments are equal and you're only trying to decide which came first, the chicken or the egg. There's a lot of defenders for final emp keeps because they know there's going to be a lot of enemies. There's a lot of enemies because they know there's going to be a lot of defenders. One isn't any better than the other. I suggest we stop the arguing over this subject.

Pchela

I knew it would end like that, there was no denying the reign would end once prime time hit. EP wanted to push me for Emp, I knew how it'd end, ****show lag fest but isn't that how AZ is every night at prime time? Was just happy to see EP not shoved up at Chal or BRK for awhile.

Pchela

Joy_Division wrote: »

If I ever get Emperor, I'd be highly insulted and indignant if every single player on the map didn't try to detrone me.

30+ siege on brk was kinda neat

Sallington

Pchela wrote: »

I knew it would end like that, there was no denying the reign would end once prime time hit. EP wanted to push me for Emp, I knew how it'd end, ****show lag fest but isn't that how AZ is every night at prime time? Was just happy to see EP not shoved up at Chal or BRK for awhile.

You killed me with a 6k sap essence seconds before the dethrone, if that's any consolation.

Ghost-Shot

Pchela wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If I ever get Emperor, I'd be highly insulted and indignant if every single player on the map didn't try to detrone me.

30+ siege on brk was kinda neat

The first time we engaged you guys last night we hadn't even noticed there was emp and I was like why is someones sap hitting me so hard lol.

Lucky28

Zheg wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

All this was tl:dr. I was replying to Daniel in another thread he post. If your guild has someone in line for emperor it's generally been since launch that your guild would push the ring for you, why you think this has changed is beyond me.

Your first post was the complete opposite of your followup. You weren't talking about your guild pushing the ring, you were talking about how people should leave your already crowned emp alone so you can 'rot' in the last emp keep all night. I pointed out that emps just aren't going to be a thing on azura's any more given how everyone treats them and pushes the dethrone. You clearly seemed to have missed that memo over the past few months - maybe the memo was tl:dr? Red/yellow/blue can still cap when no one is playing, but expecting to hold emp during primetime and for there not to be lag during the dethrone is delusional.

The sheer number of DC you guys brought to BRK was nauseating. "Lag" does not even begin to cover the state of Cyrodiil last night. AD was at least pushing other objectives (Arrius and Fara) While DC stacked every single player they had in one Keep. I don't really care how important you think dethroning an emp is, that is (AD, DC, EP. Doesn't matter who does it) just disgusting.

but you're right, it happens. which is why i tend to stay away from the last emp keep when the situation permits.

Sallington

Lucky28 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

All this was tl:dr. I was replying to Daniel in another thread he post. If your guild has someone in line for emperor it's generally been since launch that your guild would push the ring for you, why you think this has changed is beyond me.

Your first post was the complete opposite of your followup. You weren't talking about your guild pushing the ring, you were talking about how people should leave your already crowned emp alone so you can 'rot' in the last emp keep all night. I pointed out that emps just aren't going to be a thing on azura's any more given how everyone treats them and pushes the dethrone. You clearly seemed to have missed that memo over the past few months - maybe the memo was tl:dr? Red/yellow/blue can still cap when no one is playing, but expecting to hold emp during primetime and for there not to be lag during the dethrone is delusional.

The sheer number of DC you guys brought to BRK was nauseating. "Lag" does not even begin to cover the state of Cyrodiil last night. AD was at least pushing other objectives (Arrius and Fara) While DC stacked every single player they had in one Keep. I don't really care how important you think dethroning an emp is, that is just disgusting.

but you're right, it happens. which is why i tend to stay away from the last emp keep when the situation permits.

See, I think it's fun as hell to just have massive battles like that over a keep. Those are the battles I bought the game for. The disgusting part is that server performance makes that kind of battle near unplayable.

Lucky28

Sallington wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

All this was tl:dr. I was replying to Daniel in another thread he post. If your guild has someone in line for emperor it's generally been since launch that your guild would push the ring for you, why you think this has changed is beyond me.

Your first post was the complete opposite of your followup. You weren't talking about your guild pushing the ring, you were talking about how people should leave your already crowned emp alone so you can 'rot' in the last emp keep all night. I pointed out that emps just aren't going to be a thing on azura's any more given how everyone treats them and pushes the dethrone. You clearly seemed to have missed that memo over the past few months - maybe the memo was tl:dr? Red/yellow/blue can still cap when no one is playing, but expecting to hold emp during primetime and for there not to be lag during the dethrone is delusional.

The sheer number of DC you guys brought to BRK was nauseating. "Lag" does not even begin to cover the state of Cyrodiil last night. AD was at least pushing other objectives (Arrius and Fara) While DC stacked every single player they had in one Keep. I don't really care how important you think dethroning an emp is, that is just disgusting.

but you're right, it happens. which is why i tend to stay away from the last emp keep when the situation permits.

See, I think it's fun as hell to just have massive battles like that over a keep. Those are the battles I bought the game for. The disgusting part is that server performance makes that kind of battle near unplayable.

Yes, i agree. it would be fun and i wouldn't mind them bringing such numbers if there was no lag. however, not being able to move, CC Break or use skills ruins the experience.

Satiar

Lucky28 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

All this was tl:dr. I was replying to Daniel in another thread he post. If your guild has someone in line for emperor it's generally been since launch that your guild would push the ring for you, why you think this has changed is beyond me.

Your first post was the complete opposite of your followup. You weren't talking about your guild pushing the ring, you were talking about how people should leave your already crowned emp alone so you can 'rot' in the last emp keep all night. I pointed out that emps just aren't going to be a thing on azura's any more given how everyone treats them and pushes the dethrone. You clearly seemed to have missed that memo over the past few months - maybe the memo was tl:dr? Red/yellow/blue can still cap when no one is playing, but expecting to hold emp during primetime and for there not to be lag during the dethrone is delusional.

The sheer number of DC you guys brought to BRK was nauseating. "Lag" does not even begin to cover the state of Cyrodiil last night. AD was at least pushing other objectives (Arrius and Fara) While DC stacked every single player they had in one Keep. I don't really care how important you think dethroning an emp is, that is (AD, DC, EP. Doesn't matter who does) just disgusting.

but you're right, it happens. which is why i tend to stay away from the last emp keep when the situation permits.

Taking emp is like taking scrolls. You do it and you get pushed.

Artemide_Uscieri

@x99Needles

Finally a serious, clever and deeply argumented topic. I thank you for this.

@Zenimax

Sincerely, I think that touching RvR game mechanics would be the greatest error you could do.
The PvP in this game is awesome, and its mechanics are well made, I love it.
What you could do it's make it even better, adding more strategic thinks to do, that's for sure.

The only real big problems to solve are the LAG and FRAME RATE DROPS (even on high end machines and 100Mbit fiber internet connections).
THESE are the things that make the game almost UNPLAYABLE.
Please, concentrate on that, and don't even think to touch skills or anything about sieges or whatever, unless you haven't solved those 2 major issues.
The problem is not the zerg. As already told by many, this is RvR! It's how the game works! It's so amazing having entire raids of all 3 factions battleing each other, using skills of any kind to try to make the difference, the wonderful skills you invented, it's the way the game is meant to be played.

@everyone

We don't have to blame each other about how we play RvR (big zerg, raids, small groups, or what you like).
I find amazing that everybody can play with the style they prefer.
We should just have to stay unite and firm about asking Zenimax to fix the lag and frame rate drops, and make the game works.
We have paid for this game (and I've been subscriber too), they provided us a very good PvP (yeah they can make it better and fix bugs and polish it, we all agree about this), and I'm having a great time in cyrodiil and imperial city (when occasionally there's no lag, that's for granted).
Please, stop talking about thousands of things, let's keep concentrate in asking them what it should have been right from the start. A PvP istance without lag and frame rate drops. When we'll have this granted by the company, only then it will be useful to talk about how to make PvP even better.

my 2 cents, bye to all.

Shelgon

Imma start off by saying I will never see zerging (or running in anything more than an 8 man at most) as anything more than an AP farm, i don't find it fun, and i actually particularly hate doing it. That's just my opinion on the subject.

Now, I don't like what you do, regardless of how effective you are at it, but I liked this post a lot, although I began to disagree around the middle area.

I won't deny that we (small man groups) don't do much for the score, we don't, but I like to think we are helping, albeit in a small way. While you guys are taking chal, we're the ones sitting between chal and arrius killing the reinforcements. While you guys are sieging the keeps, we're the ones taking the resources. (While you guys are defending the keeps, we're the ones gettin that D TICK.) But I digress, we might actually be doing nothing, who knows.

Although I might still hop on the game and bash my head against the wall after being promptly rekt in a 1v24, after reading your post I became a bit more warm-hearted to the big group community. I can't possibly see how you guys have fun doing what you do, but you do have fun, and I see that you also care enough to make changes for the small mans as well.

You guys [big groups] are the catalyst for lag, but you are also the victims of it.

Ghost-Shot

Shelgon wrote: »

Imma start off by saying I will never see zerging (or running in anything more than an 8 man at most) as anything more than an AP farm, i don't find it fun, and i actually particularly hate doing it. That's just my opinion on the subject.

Now, I don't like what you do, regardless of how effective you are at it, but I liked this post a lot, although I began to disagree around the middle area.

I won't deny that we (small man groups) don't do much for the score, we don't, but I like to think we are helping, albeit in a small way. While you guys are taking chal, we're the ones sitting between chal and arrius killing the reinforcements. While you guys are sieging the keeps, we're the ones taking the resources. (While you guys are defending the keeps, we're the ones gettin that D TICK.) But I digress, we might actually be doing nothing, who knows.

Although I might still hop on the game and bash my head against the wall after being promptly rekt in a 1v24, after reading your post I became a bit more warm-hearted to the big group community. I can't possibly see how you guys have fun doing what you do, but you do have fun, and I see that you also care enough to make changes for the small mans as well.

You guys [big groups] are the catalyst for lag, but you are also the victims of it.

This might be the most reasonable thing I've ever seen regarding the relationship between small scale and large scale, just think how much more productive we could be as a community if we could all communicate in a civil manner like this.

Takllin

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Shelgon wrote: »

Imma start off by saying I will never see zerging (or running in anything more than an 8 man at most) as anything more than an AP farm, i don't find it fun, and i actually particularly hate doing it. That's just my opinion on the subject.

Now, I don't like what you do, regardless of how effective you are at it, but I liked this post a lot, although I began to disagree around the middle area.

I won't deny that we (small man groups) don't do much for the score, we don't, but I like to think we are helping, albeit in a small way. While you guys are taking chal, we're the ones sitting between chal and arrius killing the reinforcements. While you guys are sieging the keeps, we're the ones taking the resources. (While you guys are defending the keeps, we're the ones gettin that D TICK.) But I digress, we might actually be doing nothing, who knows.

Although I might still hop on the game and bash my head against the wall after being promptly rekt in a 1v24, after reading your post I became a bit more warm-hearted to the big group community. I can't possibly see how you guys have fun doing what you do, but you do have fun, and I see that you also care enough to make changes for the small mans as well.

You guys [big groups] are the catalyst for lag, but you are also the victims of it.

This might be the most reasonable thing I've ever seen regarding the relationship between small scale and large scale, just think how much more productive we could be as a community if we could all communicate in a civil manner like this.

Quit zerging you filthy zergbad.

Ghost-Shot

Takllin wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Shelgon wrote: »

Imma start off by saying I will never see zerging (or running in anything more than an 8 man at most) as anything more than an AP farm, i don't find it fun, and i actually particularly hate doing it. That's just my opinion on the subject.

Now, I don't like what you do, regardless of how effective you are at it, but I liked this post a lot, although I began to disagree around the middle area.

I won't deny that we (small man groups) don't do much for the score, we don't, but I like to think we are helping, albeit in a small way. While you guys are taking chal, we're the ones sitting between chal and arrius killing the reinforcements. While you guys are sieging the keeps, we're the ones taking the resources. (While you guys are defending the keeps, we're the ones gettin that D TICK.) But I digress, we might actually be doing nothing, who knows.

Although I might still hop on the game and bash my head against the wall after being promptly rekt in a 1v24, after reading your post I became a bit more warm-hearted to the big group community. I can't possibly see how you guys have fun doing what you do, but you do have fun, and I see that you also care enough to make changes for the small mans as well.

You guys [big groups] are the catalyst for lag, but you are also the victims of it.

This might be the most reasonable thing I've ever seen regarding the relationship between small scale and large scale, just think how much more productive we could be as a community if we could all communicate in a civil manner like this.

Quit zerging you filthy zergbad.

I AM SPINNING AND WINNING!!!

Satiar

Shelgon wrote: »

Imma start off by saying I will never see zerging (or running in anything more than an 8 man at most) as anything more than an AP farm, i don't find it fun, and i actually particularly hate doing it. That's just my opinion on the subject.

Now, I don't like what you do, regardless of how effective you are at it, but I liked this post a lot, although I began to disagree around the middle area.

I won't deny that we (small man groups) don't do much for the score, we don't, but I like to think we are helping, albeit in a small way. While you guys are taking chal, we're the ones sitting between chal and arrius killing the reinforcements. While you guys are sieging the keeps, we're the ones taking the resources. (While you guys are defending the keeps, we're the ones gettin that D TICK.) But I digress, we might actually be doing nothing, who knows.

Although I might still hop on the game and bash my head against the wall after being promptly rekt in a 1v24, after reading your post I became a bit more warm-hearted to the big group community. I can't possibly see how you guys have fun doing what you do, but you do have fun, and I see that you also care enough to make changes for the small mans as well.

You guys [big groups] are the catalyst for lag, but you are also the victims of it.

If I know Bulb at all, he understands the role small groups have. We used to be that group, playing interference for the larger guilds and doing what we could while having our fun. I think that's where a lot of the post comes from: we never resented the larger groups or guilds that ran around us, there was always respect that went both ways. Crys, Agrippa and later Anon were always appreciative of our work, and we likewise respected what their groups could do. It was a good relationship. Thier sieges and fights created back lines and supply lines to gank, symbiotic relationship. Small man was fun until we were holed up at our gates, waiting for a guild to log on and dig us out

Nowadays, I think anyone reading the forums could tell you that sort of respect doesn't exist like it used to. The anti-group mentality is stronger than I've ever seen it, and what's funny is groups aren't even as destructive as they used to be. DiE isn't farming 16 hours a day at Bleakers, IR isn't running laps at Glade all day, Decibel and Alacrity aren't terrorizing Arrius mine, Havoc isn't roof farming fargyle, Hijinz isn't at the bridge. There is less farming and general annoying behavior from guilds now than at any point in the game, but the hate is stronger than ever.

*Insert Barney song about getting along here*

Makkir

OP- I know you guys take a lot of heat and although I like small scale as much as the next guy, I have been arguing the same points you make since Day 1. Game was sold as RvR.

Makkir

The thing I hate the most about very long OPs is all the people responding who feel the need to quote the entire OP. Like comon, how much scrolling do I really need to do!

Makkir

Teargrants wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Siege, when controlled by players, is still PVP. It's a bit arrogant to suggest otherwise. There is no one way the game or RVR "should" be. It's entirely subjective.

No one is saying siege isn't pvp, you too are just picking a meaningless argument based in semantics. What people are debating is the siege meta, something akin to the first couple weeks after 1.6 hit before siege buffs were fixed. It was a meta where keep pushes boiled down to who could put more fire trebs on a breach, where whole factions sat on sej bridge for hours and hours unable to set foot on the bridge without being wiped by siege, where open field fights turned into every pug setting siege so you had lines and lines of siege stretching from brk back to sej, where gank groups tried to gank ppl from horseback with siege.

The discussion people are trying to have is over the merits of this type of meta vs ability based combat. Why this distinction seems hard for some people to get, I swear I do not know.

maybe they should inscrease the cost of siege then to make placement a bit of a responsible decision then. 50k AP? :P