Eclipse + morphs [suggestion]

danno8

Solariken wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Would you guys accept the current 1 target limit and CC immunity of Eclipse if it reflected everything? I am talking physical and Magicka, ranged and melee? Maybe with a reduction to 2-3 seconds and drop the damage? I don't know but I love the idea of reflecting a WB.

A person who sees the huge globe on them knows they have to CC break or they will hurt themselves, or they can wait 2-3 seconds and get immunity that way (currently you don't get immunity if you just let it expire).

I wouldn't like this, but that's just my preference. It seems counterintuitive that you would be able to Wrecking Blow or Teleport Strike yourself from a logistical standpoint.

If everything else were to remain as-is with the ability, I think one addition I WOULD accept is that the target cannot receive any healing at all while the sphere holds. Now THAT would be interesting.

Well you can already Concealed Weapon yourself so it doesn't seem too strange to me. Anything you try to output bounces back to you off the bubble.

I like your idea for healing as an alternative though. Makes the skill useful against stamina builds. Right now it is completely ignorable.

Ashamray

It's really a joke that hard CC skill does not apply CC but applies CC imunity. Not a funny joke.

acw37162

Love the idea.

Would love to see a shift in Templar play back to high evasion dodge chance class, nit as bad as it was before but the ability to slot major and minor evasion and a passive to buff it to around 35 - 40 % percent fridge chance would do wonders for bring do skis and clunky on the battlefield.

Cinbri

The more i thinking about templar balance, the more i agree that Eclipse should be changed to self-buff. Before nerfs Templar got 1 defensive ability in Aedric Spear skill tree(Sun Shield) and 1 defensive ability in Dawn Wrath skill tree(Blinding Light). After implementing RD we lost not just only aoe CC, but best defensive ability. After all nerfs we got only Restoring Light skill tree for defense, however this tree provides only healing with worst resource managment for now. I think it is terrible for class balance.

Dovahmiim

Definitely an interesting idea, however I would definitely rather Eclipse in it's current state over your suggestion. I assume I am one of the few Templars left who still relies on this skill, for several different reasons. I play a high damage Templar ranged burst build in PvP (see signature for YouTube link), and I find Eclipse to be very useful when fighting Magicka builds, as I can time a Dark Flare with Total Dark to achieve heavy burst dmg vs several magicka builds, mainly sorcerers using c-frags. In addition it is also a good way for me to counter Magicka DKs, forcing stam drain, and to shutdown Templars using Toppling Charge. Another situational use is as a counter-reflect against players using Defensive Posture or Reflective Scales, Dark Flare + Meteor (??) when counter reflected against DKs is a near insta-kill every time. I by no means think the skill is in the best spot, however your suggestion is a complete nerf to an important aspect of the ranged Templar playstyle, potentially further reducing the already lacking versatility our class has.

I don't actually like the idea of Eclipse being a self buff either, as this would also hurt my ability to catch enemies off guard with their own attacks, or with my double reflected attacks. In it's current state there is no room for reaction time, which is why it remains effective. If for instance a target Sorc casts a c-frag against a Templar who has 'self-buffed' themself with Eclipse, this will mean the c-frag has to travel all the way to the Templar, and then back, giving plenty of time to shield up and react. This takes away the uniqueness of the skill, it needs to to remain a debuff, although I would prefer if this debuff was not limited to one target as it is currently... I really don't know why ZoS changed that of all things.

One general aspect of your suggestion I do like is for the Unstable Core morph to grant some kind of passive buff. This could be minor expedition, as you suggested, or something else. I do like the idea of a slight mobility increase however.

Let's operate under the hypothetical that Eclipse must remain as a debuff on a target. Where would you proceed in adjusting the skill to synergise with the Templar class?

Solariken

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Definitely an interesting idea, however I would definitely rather Eclipse in it's current state over your suggestion. I assume I am one of the few Templars left who still relies on this skill, for several different reasons. I play a high damage Templar ranged burst build in PvP (see signature for YouTube link), and I find Eclipse to be very useful when fighting Magicka builds, as I can time a Dark Flare with Total Dark to achieve heavy burst dmg vs several magicka builds, mainly sorcerers using c-frags. In addition it is also a good way for me to counter Magicka DKs, forcing stam drain, and to shutdown Templars using Toppling Charge. Another situational use is as a counter-reflect against players using Defensive Posture or Reflective Scales, Dark Flare + Meteor (??) when counter reflected against DKs is a near insta-kill every time. I by no means think the skill is in the best spot, however your suggestion is a complete nerf to an important aspect of the ranged Templar playstyle, potentially further reducing the already lacking versatility our class has.

I don't actually like the idea of Eclipse being a self buff either, as this would also hurt my ability to catch enemies off guard with their own attacks, or with my double reflected attacks. In it's current state there is no room for reaction time, which is why it remains effective. If for instance a target Sorc casts a c-frag against a Templar who has 'self-buffed' themself with Eclipse, this will mean the c-frag has to travel all the way to the Templar, and then back, giving plenty of time to shield up and react. This takes away the uniqueness of the skill, it needs to to remain a debuff, although I would prefer if this debuff was not limited to one target as it is currently... I really don't know why ZoS changed that of all things.

One general aspect of your suggestion I do like is for the Unstable Core morph to grant some kind of passive buff. This could be minor expedition, as you suggested, or something else. I do like the idea of a slight mobility increase however.

Let's operate under the hypothetical that Eclipse must remain as a debuff on a target. Where would you proceed in adjusting the skill to synergise with the Templar class?

I think the intended mechanic of Eclipse in its current state is pretty unique and useful. However, as I stated before I would rather change it to a self buff than suffer all the crippling limitations of it remaining a target debuff.

As a debuff, it's highly unreliable as it does not place a bubble on recently CC'd targets - and if it does create a bubble, it is incredibly easy to counter with a simple break-free that gives free CC immunity. Furthermore, your chance of causing a decent player to reflect onto themselves is incredibly small. It really only works on new players who are not familiar with the skill.

One of the main reasons I think it should become a self buff is that Stamplars and other builds which are not spec'd for Breath of Life spam have MUCH lower survivability relative to other classes.

If hypothetically it had to remain a 1-target debuff, I could think of several great ways to modify the skill to bring it up to par, but it's greatest weakness would still overshadow any positives - if the target is already on CC lockout, the skill is worthless.

Spacemonkey

Solariken wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Would you guys accept the current 1 target limit and CC immunity of Eclipse if it reflected everything? I am talking physical and Magicka, ranged and melee? Maybe with a reduction to 2-3 seconds and drop the damage? I don't know but I love the idea of reflecting a WB.

A person who sees the huge globe on them knows they have to CC break or they will hurt themselves, or they can wait 2-3 seconds and get immunity that way (currently you don't get immunity if you just let it expire).

actually this should already be current, healing should be reflected also, meaning you unkowingly heal the eclipse caster against your will. but just one other thing eclipse doesnt do properly

Solariken

Spacemonkey wrote: »

actually this should already be current, healing should be reflected also, meaning you unkowingly heal the eclipse caster against your will. but just one other thing eclipse doesnt do properly

Haha, that would be pretty cool and interesting. But I still think the base explosion damage would need to be increased because otherwise the skill is worthless against anyone already on CC lockout.

SneaK

I don't think it would be right to hijack the DK's wings, and make them better...

I think Total Dark is a decent skill as is, primarily good against Sorcs. It should however cast back all projectiles not just spells, and should go back to being able to cast on multiple opponents at once.

The other morph I have no use for, and actually have proposed in other threads to change it to a form of a magicka based immovability. You'd surround yourself in an aura of protection for X amount of seconds providing immunity to all knockbacks/immobilizes (and perhaps a HoT while it's active).

Solariken

SneaK wrote: »

I don't think it would be right to hijack the DK's wings, and make them better...

I think Total Dark is a decent skill as is, primarily good against Sorcs. It should however cast back all projectiles not just spells, and should go back to being able to cast on multiple opponents at once.

The other morph I have no use for, and actually have proposed in other threads to change it to a form of a magicka based immovability. You'd surround yourself in an aura of protection for X amount of seconds providing immunity to all knockbacks/immobilizes (and perhaps a HoT while it's active).

I'm not sure what you mean by the above in bold. I proposed an intercept mechanic unlike anything already in the game, it is somewhat analogous to Reflective Scale but functionally different as there is no reflecting involved.

As I said in another comment, Total Dark isn't good against anyone except new players. Everyone just breaks-free immediately (if they can't purge) and they receive no punishment except a measly ~2k Magic damage. The only benefit as it exists currently is facilitating overall burst damage (something like Total Dark > Dark Flare > Toppling Charge > Jabs). Nobody uses it for the reflect because it simply isn't reliable.

SneaK

Solariken wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I don't think it would be right to hijack the DK's wings, and make them better...

I think Total Dark is a decent skill as is, primarily good against Sorcs. It should however cast back all projectiles not just spells, and should go back to being able to cast on multiple opponents at once.

The other morph I have no use for, and actually have proposed in other threads to change it to a form of a magicka based immovability. You'd surround yourself in an aura of protection for X amount of seconds providing immunity to all knockbacks/immobilizes (and perhaps a HoT while it's active).

I'm not sure what you mean by the above in bold. I proposed an intercept mechanic unlike anything already in the game, it is somewhat analogous to Reflective Scale but functionally different as there is no reflecting involved.

As I said in another comment, Total Dark isn't good against anyone except new players. Everyone just breaks-free immediately (if they can't purge) and they receive no punishment except a measly ~2k Magic damage. The only benefit as it exists currently is facilitating overall burst damage (something like Total Dark > Dark Flare > Toppling Charge > Jabs). Nobody uses it for the reflect because it simply isn't reliable.

Your proposal while not being a reflect, is awfully similar to the wings, and perhaps more powerful. That's what I meant in bold. It's not a terrible idea, but I just feel it might be too powerful. Additionally, Absorb Magic and Harness Magicka are in the game and are intercept mechanics.

Total Dark does work against Sorcs, like I said, and you actually acknowledged it's effectiveness with that combo "something like Total Dark > Dark Flare > Toppling Charge > Jabs." You see a Sorc's hands glowing Purple you have to cast that then go aggressive. But either way, it's not a live and die by for me and if it changed I wouldn't be too upset about it. I would like to see one of the morphs change to a form of magicka immovability skill.

Solariken

SneaK wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I don't think it would be right to hijack the DK's wings, and make them better...

I think Total Dark is a decent skill as is, primarily good against Sorcs. It should however cast back all projectiles not just spells, and should go back to being able to cast on multiple opponents at once.

The other morph I have no use for, and actually have proposed in other threads to change it to a form of a magicka based immovability. You'd surround yourself in an aura of protection for X amount of seconds providing immunity to all knockbacks/immobilizes (and perhaps a HoT while it's active).

I'm not sure what you mean by the above in bold. I proposed an intercept mechanic unlike anything already in the game, it is somewhat analogous to Reflective Scale but functionally different as there is no reflecting involved.

As I said in another comment, Total Dark isn't good against anyone except new players. Everyone just breaks-free immediately (if they can't purge) and they receive no punishment except a measly ~2k Magic damage. The only benefit as it exists currently is facilitating overall burst damage (something like Total Dark > Dark Flare > Toppling Charge > Jabs). Nobody uses it for the reflect because it simply isn't reliable.

Your proposal while not being a reflect, is awfully similar to the wings, and perhaps more powerful. That's what I meant in bold. It's not a terrible idea, but I just feel it might be too powerful. Additionally, Absorb Magic and Harness Magicka are in the game and are intercept mechanics.

Total Dark does work against Sorcs, like I said, and you actually acknowledged it's effectiveness with that combo "something like Total Dark > Dark Flare > Toppling Charge > Jabs." You see a Sorc's hands glowing Purple you have to cast that then go aggressive. But either way, it's not a live and die by for me and if it changed I wouldn't be too upset about it. I would like to see one of the morphs change to a form of magicka immovability skill.

Even if you happen to fight a bad sorc, the chance of your Total Dark bubble working is minimal due to CC lockout unless they have CFrags ready to go at the outset and you open up on them. If you are already engaged with them, you likely already gave them immunity with Jabs, Javelin, Toppling Charge, Blazing Spear, or any of the many non-class CC abilities as part of your normal rotation. Let's also not forget that a large portion of PvP includes people who use immovable potions (myself included).

I just want something that is reliable, effective, and that improves survivability. I don't think the current mechanic can allow for those things.

SneaK

Solariken wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I don't think it would be right to hijack the DK's wings, and make them better...

I think Total Dark is a decent skill as is, primarily good against Sorcs. It should however cast back all projectiles not just spells, and should go back to being able to cast on multiple opponents at once.

The other morph I have no use for, and actually have proposed in other threads to change it to a form of a magicka based immovability. You'd surround yourself in an aura of protection for X amount of seconds providing immunity to all knockbacks/immobilizes (and perhaps a HoT while it's active).

I'm not sure what you mean by the above in bold. I proposed an intercept mechanic unlike anything already in the game, it is somewhat analogous to Reflective Scale but functionally different as there is no reflecting involved.

As I said in another comment, Total Dark isn't good against anyone except new players. Everyone just breaks-free immediately (if they can't purge) and they receive no punishment except a measly ~2k Magic damage. The only benefit as it exists currently is facilitating overall burst damage (something like Total Dark > Dark Flare > Toppling Charge > Jabs). Nobody uses it for the reflect because it simply isn't reliable.

Your proposal while not being a reflect, is awfully similar to the wings, and perhaps more powerful. That's what I meant in bold. It's not a terrible idea, but I just feel it might be too powerful. Additionally, Absorb Magic and Harness Magicka are in the game and are intercept mechanics.

Total Dark does work against Sorcs, like I said, and you actually acknowledged it's effectiveness with that combo "something like Total Dark > Dark Flare > Toppling Charge > Jabs." You see a Sorc's hands glowing Purple you have to cast that then go aggressive. But either way, it's not a live and die by for me and if it changed I wouldn't be too upset about it. I would like to see one of the morphs change to a form of magicka immovability skill.

Even if you happen to fight a bad sorc, the chance of your Total Dark bubble working is minimal due to CC lockout unless they have CFrags ready to go at the outset and you open up on them. If you are already engaged with them, you likely already gave them immunity with Jabs, Javelin, Toppling Charge, Blazing Spear, or any of the many non-class CC abilities as part of your normal rotation. Let's also not forget that a large portion of PvP includes people who use immovable potions (myself included).

I just want something that is reliable, effective, and that improves survivability. I don't think the current mechanic can allow for those things.

Again, I don't think it's completely worthless, but it's not the greatest and if changed not a big deal to me. I do think there is no need for both of the morphs to exist and changing at least one to give more survivability is a must.

Ffastyl

What Prince did you bargain with for this idea?

I love it!
Better than any ideas I've had for making Eclipse useful yet balanced.


I'll begin reading beyond the OP now...

Cinbri

Debuff that not working completely if enemy under cc immunity right now - useless
or how some people suggested
Debuff that can't be purged - insanelly OP
In both cases skill broken.
However zos had good idea of it before they broke idea of skill:
Total Dark proced 166 spelldamage debuff on target after it was breaking free(shadows floating round enemy). Time of debuff was equal to cc immunity and magicka build forced to fight against TD spam had either be under constant spelldamage debuff that lowered offense of enemy or purge it. It was perfect, don't understand why zos removed.
So if think that Eclipse should work as debuff, it should work same way:
Cast bubble on enemy that reflect any single-target magicka and stamina ability back on caster; [insert morph options]; after effect of Eclipse ended(purged) aplly [insert preferable debuff of offensive capabilities] for 6 sec; don't have target cap.

tinythinker

Solariken wrote: »

@Wrobel, Eclipse needs some tender love and care. I don't know anyone who still uses this ability. It has some very wonky design features that overly limit its use including the one target restriction and the shared CC timer with every other hard CC. The intended mechanics are great, but just not practical in its context. Let me propose a change that I hope you will consider.

Proposed change to the base skill:

Eclipse
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. (8m range)

Proposed morphs:

Total Dark
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies and healing nearby allies for X.

Unstable Core
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds and grants Major Evasion (20% dodge chance) for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. While slotted, you gain Minor Expedition (10% increased movement speed) at all times.

Interesting idea. I like it! Might need some work but an imaginative reinvention of the ability. Would definitely slot Eclipse more with these morphs. Of course they may already have an update for Eclipse ready to be revealed tomorrow afternoon or next week.

Solariken wrote: »

Additional thoughts:
This suggestion gives Templars a defensive ability that is analogous to Reflective Scale but fits more with the Templar niche. It addresses some Templar survivability problems and adds some needed utility (if you troll my thread with BoL hate I will ram my javelin right up your [snip]). Total Dark might be attractive for PvE tanks and PvE/PvP healers, while Unstable Core might be attractive to stamplars and magicka jabplars.

This is one set of ideas and I'm sure there are other great alternatives that have been proposed. Regardless, Eclipse needs an overhaul. I would love to hear some constructive player feedback on this suggestion.

An alternative based on the original/current basic design of the ability from an old thread to add more food for thought...

Reclassify Eclipse and its morphs as non-CC abilities that cannot be removed by Break Free. They could still be cleansed/purged. Increase the bonus damage for Unstable Core to 50% or 60% (at least). Failing that, double or triple the damage done by the base ability and morphs when someone breaks out of the bubble in order to make up for wasting magicka in order to give them instant CC immunity. Make them choose between taking real damage or waiting it out (and taking normal "end of ability" damage). If it's going to be a "one target at a time" skill make it worth it.

That idea might look something like this (changes to the v1.6 to v2.2 tooltips are in blue):

Eclipse (Active Ability)
4069 Magicka | Instant | 28m range | Target = single enemy

Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere that reflects back any harmful single target spells the enemy casts for 4 seconds.

When the sphere dissipates, it deals [X] Magic Damage to nearby enemies.

A target that Breaks Free takes [3 times X] damage while nearby enemies take [1.5 times X] damage.

Total Dark (Morph of Eclipse)
4069 Magicka | Instant | 28m range | Target = single enemy

Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere that reflects back any harmful single target spells the enemy casts for 6 seconds.

When the sphere dissipates, it deals [X] Magic Damage to nearby enemies.

Each reflected spell heals you for [X]. Enemy deals less damage when effect ends.

A target that Breaks Free takes [3 times X] damage while nearby enemies take [1.5 times X] damage, healing nearby allies for [1.5 times X].

Unstable Core (Morph of Eclipse)
4069 Magicka | Instant | 28m range | Target = single enemy


Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere that reflects back any harmful single target spells the enemy casts for 5 seconds.

When the sphere dissipates, it deals [X+40%] Magic Damage to nearby enemies.

A target that Breaks Free takes [3 times X] damage while nearby enemies take [1.5 times X] damage and are knocked down.

Neoauspex

Eclipse: Target has no line of sight for ranged attacks on you for x seconds

Total Dark: Target cannot see @!#$ for x seconds

Solar eclipse: Any enemies in werewolf form within x meters die.

Dovahmiim

Solariken wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Definitely an interesting idea, however I would definitely rather Eclipse in it's current state over your suggestion. I assume I am one of the few Templars left who still relies on this skill, for several different reasons. I play a high damage Templar ranged burst build in PvP (see signature for YouTube link), and I find Eclipse to be very useful when fighting Magicka builds, as I can time a Dark Flare with Total Dark to achieve heavy burst dmg vs several magicka builds, mainly sorcerers using c-frags. In addition it is also a good way for me to counter Magicka DKs, forcing stam drain, and to shutdown Templars using Toppling Charge. Another situational use is as a counter-reflect against players using Defensive Posture or Reflective Scales, Dark Flare + Meteor (??) when counter reflected against DKs is a near insta-kill every time. I by no means think the skill is in the best spot, however your suggestion is a complete nerf to an important aspect of the ranged Templar playstyle, potentially further reducing the already lacking versatility our class has.

I don't actually like the idea of Eclipse being a self buff either, as this would also hurt my ability to catch enemies off guard with their own attacks, or with my double reflected attacks. In it's current state there is no room for reaction time, which is why it remains effective. If for instance a target Sorc casts a c-frag against a Templar who has 'self-buffed' themself with Eclipse, this will mean the c-frag has to travel all the way to the Templar, and then back, giving plenty of time to shield up and react. This takes away the uniqueness of the skill, it needs to to remain a debuff, although I would prefer if this debuff was not limited to one target as it is currently... I really don't know why ZoS changed that of all things.

One general aspect of your suggestion I do like is for the Unstable Core morph to grant some kind of passive buff. This could be minor expedition, as you suggested, or something else. I do like the idea of a slight mobility increase however.

Let's operate under the hypothetical that Eclipse must remain as a debuff on a target. Where would you proceed in adjusting the skill to synergise with the Templar class?

I think the intended mechanic of Eclipse in its current state is pretty unique and useful. However, as I stated before I would rather change it to a self buff than suffer all the crippling limitations of it remaining a target debuff.

As a debuff, it's highly unreliable as it does not place a bubble on recently CC'd targets - and if it does create a bubble, it is incredibly easy to counter with a simple break-free that gives free CC immunity. Furthermore, your chance of causing a decent player to reflect onto themselves is incredibly small. It really only works on new players who are not familiar with the skill.

One of the main reasons I think it should become a self buff is that Stamplars and other builds which are not spec'd for Breath of Life spam have MUCH lower survivability relative to other classes.

If hypothetically it had to remain a 1-target debuff, I could think of several great ways to modify the skill to bring it up to par, but it's greatest weakness would still overshadow any positives - if the target is already on CC lockout, the skill is worthless.

Yeah see the reason I like the skill a fair bit more than you is likely because I do not use a jabs build so I do not have to put up with annoying soft CCs which would render Eclipse far less effective. See, this is a legitimate criticism. The function at the moment is fantastic, I have found much use for this skill on both Stamplar and Magicka Templar, if you think it only works on bad players then you are using it wrong. I can time this skill to turn the tide of battle in outnumbered situations, counter reflect against DKs and stam users, reflect cfrags and other high damage projectiles, keep Templars at bay, bring NBs out of stealth, the list goes on.

It really comes down to this, with your suggestion, the Templar class is bottlenecked even further in to playing a melee build. I am one of the few Templars who can very effectively play a ranged build. I would rather see steps be taken to make Templar more versatile in that regard. If you play a melee Templar I can see why you would disagree, however if Puncturing Sweeps were to lose the god awful mini-CC that grants immunity, I'd wager you'd find much more use out of Eclipse. With your suggestion Eclipse would function like something of a group utility, AoE close range damage centered on caster, triggered when you take damage from projectiles. That is way too similar to the intended functionality of Blazing Shield (especially back in the glory days), I would rather see blazing shield be buffed, to serve a more universally effective role than you suggested change to Eclipse.

Again, Eclipse is still a very powerful skill when used by an experienced Stamplar, although arguably a functioning blazing shield would be a better choice.

So yeah tl;dr, I don't acknowledge its "greatest weaknesses" according to you because I have been using this skill religiously since the start of 1.6, but that is likely because I don't use toppling or sweeps in my build. What are some of the great ways to modify the skill that you thought of? I am perfectly happy with the skill in its current state, but I'm sure there are some tweaks that could make it more viable.

Solariken

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Definitely an interesting idea, however I would definitely rather Eclipse in it's current state over your suggestion. I assume I am one of the few Templars left who still relies on this skill, for several different reasons. I play a high damage Templar ranged burst build in PvP (see signature for YouTube link), and I find Eclipse to be very useful when fighting Magicka builds, as I can time a Dark Flare with Total Dark to achieve heavy burst dmg vs several magicka builds, mainly sorcerers using c-frags. In addition it is also a good way for me to counter Magicka DKs, forcing stam drain, and to shutdown Templars using Toppling Charge. Another situational use is as a counter-reflect against players using Defensive Posture or Reflective Scales, Dark Flare + Meteor (??) when counter reflected against DKs is a near insta-kill every time. I by no means think the skill is in the best spot, however your suggestion is a complete nerf to an important aspect of the ranged Templar playstyle, potentially further reducing the already lacking versatility our class has.

I don't actually like the idea of Eclipse being a self buff either, as this would also hurt my ability to catch enemies off guard with their own attacks, or with my double reflected attacks. In it's current state there is no room for reaction time, which is why it remains effective. If for instance a target Sorc casts a c-frag against a Templar who has 'self-buffed' themself with Eclipse, this will mean the c-frag has to travel all the way to the Templar, and then back, giving plenty of time to shield up and react. This takes away the uniqueness of the skill, it needs to to remain a debuff, although I would prefer if this debuff was not limited to one target as it is currently... I really don't know why ZoS changed that of all things.

One general aspect of your suggestion I do like is for the Unstable Core morph to grant some kind of passive buff. This could be minor expedition, as you suggested, or something else. I do like the idea of a slight mobility increase however.

Let's operate under the hypothetical that Eclipse must remain as a debuff on a target. Where would you proceed in adjusting the skill to synergise with the Templar class?

I think the intended mechanic of Eclipse in its current state is pretty unique and useful. However, as I stated before I would rather change it to a self buff than suffer all the crippling limitations of it remaining a target debuff.

As a debuff, it's highly unreliable as it does not place a bubble on recently CC'd targets - and if it does create a bubble, it is incredibly easy to counter with a simple break-free that gives free CC immunity. Furthermore, your chance of causing a decent player to reflect onto themselves is incredibly small. It really only works on new players who are not familiar with the skill.

One of the main reasons I think it should become a self buff is that Stamplars and other builds which are not spec'd for Breath of Life spam have MUCH lower survivability relative to other classes.

If hypothetically it had to remain a 1-target debuff, I could think of several great ways to modify the skill to bring it up to par, but it's greatest weakness would still overshadow any positives - if the target is already on CC lockout, the skill is worthless.

Yeah see the reason I like the skill a fair bit more than you is likely because I do not use a jabs build so I do not have to put up with annoying soft CCs which would render Eclipse far less effective. See, this is a legitimate criticism. The function at the moment is fantastic, I have found much use for this skill on both Stamplar and Magicka Templar, if you think it only works on bad players then you are using it wrong. I can time this skill to turn the tide of battle in outnumbered situations, counter reflect against DKs and stam users, reflect cfrags and other high damage projectiles, keep Templars at bay, bring NBs out of stealth, the list goes on.

It really comes down to this, with your suggestion, the Templar class is bottlenecked even further in to playing a melee build. I am one of the few Templars who can very effectively play a ranged build. I would rather see steps be taken to make Templar more versatile in that regard. If you play a melee Templar I can see why you would disagree, however if Puncturing Sweeps were to lose the god awful mini-CC that grants immunity, I'd wager you'd find much more use out of Eclipse. With your suggestion Eclipse would function like something of a group utility, AoE close range damage centered on caster, triggered when you take damage from projectiles. That is way too similar to the intended functionality of Blazing Shield (especially back in the glory days), I would rather see blazing shield be buffed, to serve a more universally effective role than you suggested change to Eclipse.

Again, Eclipse is still a very powerful skill when used by an experienced Stamplar, although arguably a functioning blazing shield would be a better choice.

So yeah tl;dr, I don't acknowledge its "greatest weaknesses" according to you because I have been using this skill religiously since the start of 1.6, but that is likely because I don't use toppling or sweeps in my build. What are some of the great ways to modify the skill that you thought of? I am perfectly happy with the skill in its current state, but I'm sure there are some tweaks that could make it more viable.

I hear you, and I'm sure that your build benefits slightly more than mine. However, it's still wonky in group play, because even if you didn't CC them recently, chances are that someone else did. Also, immovable potions. Nightblade anti-stealth is somewhat effective, but it's not among the best options at this.

Here's the bottom line - it's too easily countered and doesn't work as needed far too often. At the very least, you should still be asking for a large increase in damage if someone breaks free. The counter is supposed to be purge/cleanse, not break-free because anyone can do that (without punishment).

With all of these points, on both sides of the debate, there is another huge problem that I'm hoping to address, which is Templar survivability. I don't know the specifics of your build but I can guarantee that it suffers the same weakness as all Templar builds, which is vastly sub par mobility and survivability. If Eclipse were to be changed to a self buff, then it's the perfect time to add in Major/Minor Expedition and Major/Minor Evasion because the Templar desperately needs both.

If we keep Eclipse as a target debuff, then there are certainly other great places to add these buffs. Maybe add Minor Expedition while Focused Charge is slotted? Maybe trade the useless Healing Ritual for some new version of the old Blinding Flashes?

Dovahmiim

Solariken wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Definitely an interesting idea, however I would definitely rather Eclipse in it's current state over your suggestion. I assume I am one of the few Templars left who still relies on this skill, for several different reasons. I play a high damage Templar ranged burst build in PvP (see signature for YouTube link), and I find Eclipse to be very useful when fighting Magicka builds, as I can time a Dark Flare with Total Dark to achieve heavy burst dmg vs several magicka builds, mainly sorcerers using c-frags. In addition it is also a good way for me to counter Magicka DKs, forcing stam drain, and to shutdown Templars using Toppling Charge. Another situational use is as a counter-reflect against players using Defensive Posture or Reflective Scales, Dark Flare + Meteor (??) when counter reflected against DKs is a near insta-kill every time. I by no means think the skill is in the best spot, however your suggestion is a complete nerf to an important aspect of the ranged Templar playstyle, potentially further reducing the already lacking versatility our class has.

I don't actually like the idea of Eclipse being a self buff either, as this would also hurt my ability to catch enemies off guard with their own attacks, or with my double reflected attacks. In it's current state there is no room for reaction time, which is why it remains effective. If for instance a target Sorc casts a c-frag against a Templar who has 'self-buffed' themself with Eclipse, this will mean the c-frag has to travel all the way to the Templar, and then back, giving plenty of time to shield up and react. This takes away the uniqueness of the skill, it needs to to remain a debuff, although I would prefer if this debuff was not limited to one target as it is currently... I really don't know why ZoS changed that of all things.

One general aspect of your suggestion I do like is for the Unstable Core morph to grant some kind of passive buff. This could be minor expedition, as you suggested, or something else. I do like the idea of a slight mobility increase however.

Let's operate under the hypothetical that Eclipse must remain as a debuff on a target. Where would you proceed in adjusting the skill to synergise with the Templar class?

I think the intended mechanic of Eclipse in its current state is pretty unique and useful. However, as I stated before I would rather change it to a self buff than suffer all the crippling limitations of it remaining a target debuff.

As a debuff, it's highly unreliable as it does not place a bubble on recently CC'd targets - and if it does create a bubble, it is incredibly easy to counter with a simple break-free that gives free CC immunity. Furthermore, your chance of causing a decent player to reflect onto themselves is incredibly small. It really only works on new players who are not familiar with the skill.

One of the main reasons I think it should become a self buff is that Stamplars and other builds which are not spec'd for Breath of Life spam have MUCH lower survivability relative to other classes.

If hypothetically it had to remain a 1-target debuff, I could think of several great ways to modify the skill to bring it up to par, but it's greatest weakness would still overshadow any positives - if the target is already on CC lockout, the skill is worthless.

Yeah see the reason I like the skill a fair bit more than you is likely because I do not use a jabs build so I do not have to put up with annoying soft CCs which would render Eclipse far less effective. See, this is a legitimate criticism. The function at the moment is fantastic, I have found much use for this skill on both Stamplar and Magicka Templar, if you think it only works on bad players then you are using it wrong. I can time this skill to turn the tide of battle in outnumbered situations, counter reflect against DKs and stam users, reflect cfrags and other high damage projectiles, keep Templars at bay, bring NBs out of stealth, the list goes on.

It really comes down to this, with your suggestion, the Templar class is bottlenecked even further in to playing a melee build. I am one of the few Templars who can very effectively play a ranged build. I would rather see steps be taken to make Templar more versatile in that regard. If you play a melee Templar I can see why you would disagree, however if Puncturing Sweeps were to lose the god awful mini-CC that grants immunity, I'd wager you'd find much more use out of Eclipse. With your suggestion Eclipse would function like something of a group utility, AoE close range damage centered on caster, triggered when you take damage from projectiles. That is way too similar to the intended functionality of Blazing Shield (especially back in the glory days), I would rather see blazing shield be buffed, to serve a more universally effective role than you suggested change to Eclipse.

Again, Eclipse is still a very powerful skill when used by an experienced Stamplar, although arguably a functioning blazing shield would be a better choice.

So yeah tl;dr, I don't acknowledge its "greatest weaknesses" according to you because I have been using this skill religiously since the start of 1.6, but that is likely because I don't use toppling or sweeps in my build. What are some of the great ways to modify the skill that you thought of? I am perfectly happy with the skill in its current state, but I'm sure there are some tweaks that could make it more viable.

I hear you, and I'm sure that your build benefits slightly more than mine. However, it's still wonky in group play, because even if you didn't CC them recently, chances are that someone else did. Also, immovable potions. Nightblade anti-stealth is somewhat effective, but it's not among the best options at this.

Here's the bottom line - it's too easily countered and doesn't work as needed far too often. At the very least, you should still be asking for a large increase in damage if someone breaks free. The counter is supposed to be purge/cleanse, not break-free because anyone can do that (without punishment).

With all of these points, on both sides of the debate, there is another huge problem that I'm hoping to address, which is Templar survivability. I don't know the specifics of your build but I can guarantee that it suffers the same weakness as all Templar builds, which is vastly sub par mobility and survivability. If Eclipse were to be changed to a self buff, then it's the perfect time to add in Major/Minor Expedition and Major/Minor Evasion because the Templar desperately needs both.

If we keep Eclipse as a target debuff, then there are certainly other great places to add these buffs. Maybe add Minor Expedition while Focused Charge is slotted? Maybe trade the useless Healing Ritual for some new version of the old Blinding Flashes?

In group play this skill can very occasionally be used effectively, although I am exclusively a solo maybe duo player so in group fights I use this skill the same as I always would, to focus fire and pressure magicka builds. Against immovable pot users this skill would be terribad, no arguing that, which is why that if it were to be rebalanced (in fairness, it is being rebalanced, it would need a powerful debuff component attached to breaking free as opposed to purging.

As I stated, I find enough use out of this skill already, however I understand that my build is very different than most, and for this skill to be viable across the board, changes should be made. I'm thinking something like a spell damage debuff on the target, 3x damage (from eclipse explosion), minor maim, a debuff like these should the skill be broken free of.

I think that the skill with the above change would be fair game, if the survivability issues you mentioned are addressed. In my opinion the most powerful Templar survival skill currently is Purifying Ritual, this skill is on par with Dark Cloak. But it's not enough by itself. I suggested in a post I made a while back that the Honor the Dead morph of BoL have a blinding flashes component upon cast, and that channeled focus have a morph that immobilises enemies who enter the radius, I'd rather keep the niche benefits of Eclipse and focus on skills like these. We need more skills that counter melee builds (80% of pvp right now), because currently we have none. What we don't need is to homogenise the class with every other class by giving us mobility, just as with the DK class, we need actual functioning tools to stand our ground other than heal spam.

Essiaga

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Definitely an interesting idea, however I would definitely rather Eclipse in it's current state over your suggestion. I assume I am one of the few Templars left who still relies on this skill, for several different reasons. I play a high damage Templar ranged burst build in PvP (see signature for YouTube link), and I find Eclipse to be very useful when fighting Magicka builds, as I can time a Dark Flare with Total Dark to achieve heavy burst dmg vs several magicka builds, mainly sorcerers using c-frags. In addition it is also a good way for me to counter Magicka DKs, forcing stam drain, and to shutdown Templars using Toppling Charge. Another situational use is as a counter-reflect against players using Defensive Posture or Reflective Scales, Dark Flare + Meteor (??) when counter reflected against DKs is a near insta-kill every time. I by no means think the skill is in the best spot, however your suggestion is a complete nerf to an important aspect of the ranged Templar playstyle, potentially further reducing the already lacking versatility our class has.

I don't actually like the idea of Eclipse being a self buff either, as this would also hurt my ability to catch enemies off guard with their own attacks, or with my double reflected attacks. In it's current state there is no room for reaction time, which is why it remains effective. If for instance a target Sorc casts a c-frag against a Templar who has 'self-buffed' themself with Eclipse, this will mean the c-frag has to travel all the way to the Templar, and then back, giving plenty of time to shield up and react. This takes away the uniqueness of the skill, it needs to to remain a debuff, although I would prefer if this debuff was not limited to one target as it is currently... I really don't know why ZoS changed that of all things.

One general aspect of your suggestion I do like is for the Unstable Core morph to grant some kind of passive buff. This could be minor expedition, as you suggested, or something else. I do like the idea of a slight mobility increase however.

Let's operate under the hypothetical that Eclipse must remain as a debuff on a target. Where would you proceed in adjusting the skill to synergise with the Templar class?

I've used it like this in the past and agree that some portion of the skill should remain this for those who prefer it.

All skills have a base, and 2 morphs. 1 apply to the enemy. 1 apply to the caster ... and the other can be a stamina morph. I think this should be the way with most skills. Base skills should be legit option #1 and the morphs should be options #2 and #3.