Eclipse + morphs [suggestion]

Solariken

@Wrobel, Eclipse needs some tender love and care. I don't know anyone who still uses this ability. It has some very wonky design features that overly limit its use including the one target restriction and the shared CC timer with every other hard CC. The intended mechanics are great, but just not practical in its context. Let me propose a change that I hope you will consider.

Proposed change to the base skill:

Eclipse
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. (8m range)

Proposed morphs:

Twilight Enthalpy
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies and healing nearby allies for X.

Unstable Core
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. While slotted, you gain Minor Expedition (10% increased movement speed) at all times.


Additional thoughts:
This suggestion gives Templars a defensive ability that is analogous to Reflective Scale but fits more with the Templar niche. It addresses some stamina Templar toolkit problems and adds some more universally valuable utility to Dawn's Wrath. Total Dark might be attractive for PvE tanks and PvE/PvP healers, while Unstable Core might be attractive to stamplars and magicka jabplars.

This is one set of ideas and I'm sure there are other great alternatives that have been proposed. Regardless, Eclipse needs an overhaul. I would love to hear some constructive player feedback on this suggestion.

Soris

Well this is actually really good idea. If that also function with blazing shield, that would make great bombplar build again!

Solariken

Soris wrote: »

Well this is actually really good idea. If that also function with blazing shield, that would make great bombplar build again!

Yeah, it could be a lot of fun. Hopefully they plan to fix Blazing Shield too.

Brrrofski

I was actually going to post about this skill.

I don't use it on my magica templar. Just no room on bar.

Considering using it on my stamplar I've juts started. Does it proc cc immunity though?

themdogesbite

Cool idea, but id like to see Total Dark as it used to be before the IC patch and no limit on the ammount of people you can place it on at the same time. Its stupid that you´re only allowed to have one bubble active!

Solariken

Brrrofski wrote: »

I was actually going to post about this skill.

I don't use it on my magica templar. Just no room on bar.

Considering using it on my stamplar I've juts started. Does it proc cc immunity though?

Yep, it's really hard to use because it shares the hard CC lockout. So if you've recently hit them with Biting Jabs, Wrecking Blow, etc, then the reflect part of Eclipse doesn't work at all. It does still put the time bomb on them, but the damage is really low so not worth using for that purpose.

Solariken

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Cool idea, but id like to see Total Dark as it used to be before the IC patch and no limit on the ammount of people you can place it on at the same time. Its stupid that you´re only allowed to have one bubble active!

Me too, but it's pretty obvious ZOS doesn't want it to work that way anymore. So rather than keep the skill in its useless state I would like to see it changed to something more meaningful.

dodgehopper_ESO

I like it. While it doesn't completely fit to the original attempt, I think we're all losing hope that Eclipse as it was designed is salvageable. It sounds inspired by Bolt escape as well as Reflective Scale.

[Don't want to hijack the thread, but I also still want my Blinding Flashes back. Where the hell is our AOE CC? Its not as though Templar was known for good cc even when we had Blinding Flashes.]

themdogesbite

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I like it. While it doesn't completely fit to the original attempt, I think we're all losing hope that Eclipse as it was designed is salvageable. It sounds inspired by Bolt escape as well as Reflective Scale.

[Don't want to hijack the thread, but I also still want my Blinding Flashes back. Where the hell is our AOE CC? Its not as though Templar was known for good cc even when we had Blinding Flashes.]

Blinding flashes was so incredibly strong though lol, id happily have that back on my templar over jesus beam!

Cinbri

Current Eclipse mechanic is absolute garbage, hope ZOS understand this. I dont understand why Core should give Evasion while Total Dark name more "lore-wise" for this buff.
About Sun Shield: Radiant Ward is very weak morph, compare to BS. Instead of giving Evasion to Eclipse, ZOS could change Radiant Ward morph to self-buff granting major Evasion without applying damage shield, like NBs one, and it will be lore-wise. We already have templar animation implemented into Sweep ult. This will make morphs on par.

Solariken

Cinbri wrote: »

Current Eclipse mechanic is absolute garbage, hope ZOS understand this. I dont understand why Core should give Evasion while Total Dark name more "lore-wise" for this buff.
About Sun Shield: Radiant Ward is very weak morph, compare to BS. Instead of giving Evasion to Eclipse, ZOS could change Radiant Ward morph to self-buff granting major Evasion without applying damage shield, like NBs one, and it will be lore-wise. We already have templar animation implemented into Sweep ult. This will make morphs on par.

The morph names are somewhat arbitrary. For my suggestion I stuck with the healing output for Total Dark since that's similar to what it does in live.

Also, I don't think replacing the RW shield with Evasion would be a good change. The base ability is a shield, so I don't think it makes a lot of sense to have one of the morphs not grant a shield of some kind. Also, that's way too high of a magicka cost to only get Major Evasion for 6 seconds. NB's get it for 20 seconds from one cast.

dodgehopper_ESO

Solariken wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Current Eclipse mechanic is absolute garbage, hope ZOS understand this. I dont understand why Core should give Evasion while Total Dark name more "lore-wise" for this buff.
About Sun Shield: Radiant Ward is very weak morph, compare to BS. Instead of giving Evasion to Eclipse, ZOS could change Radiant Ward morph to self-buff granting major Evasion without applying damage shield, like NBs one, and it will be lore-wise. We already have templar animation implemented into Sweep ult. This will make morphs on par.

The morph names are somewhat arbitrary. For my suggestion I stuck with the healing output for Total Dark since that's similar to what it does in live.

Also, I don't think replacing the RW shield with Evasion would be a good change. The base ability is a shield, so I don't think it makes a lot of sense to have one of the morphs not grant a shield of some kind. Also, that's way too high of a magicka cost to only get Major Evasion for 6 seconds. NB's get it for 20 seconds from one cast.

They also get a LOT more than Evasion when you factor in passives and morphs.

Cinbri

Solariken wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Current Eclipse mechanic is absolute garbage, hope ZOS understand this. I dont understand why Core should give Evasion while Total Dark name more "lore-wise" for this buff.
About Sun Shield: Radiant Ward is very weak morph, compare to BS. Instead of giving Evasion to Eclipse, ZOS could change Radiant Ward morph to self-buff granting major Evasion without applying damage shield, like NBs one, and it will be lore-wise. We already have templar animation implemented into Sweep ult. This will make morphs on par.

The morph names are somewhat arbitrary. For my suggestion I stuck with the healing output for Total Dark since that's similar to what it does in live.

Also, I don't think replacing the RW shield with Evasion would be a good change. The base ability is a shield, so I don't think it makes a lot of sense to have one of the morphs not grant a shield of some kind. Also, that's way too high of a magicka cost to only get Major Evasion for 6 seconds. NB's get it for 20 seconds from one cast.

I meant buff for 20sec, not 6. And it will bring diversity into styles for sure. And we have another examples of radical changes in templar morphs: HtD/BoL, Solar Barrage/Dark Flare, Repentance/Aura; i see those as unique templar mechanic. Diversity is what we need.

danno8

Anything. I'll take anything.

If they made Eclipse cause nothing but a rainbow trail behind your opponent I would use it more than I do now. Seriously.

AfkNinja

Solariken wrote: »

@Wrobel, Eclipse needs some tender love and care. I don't know anyone who still uses this ability. It has some very wonky design features that overly limit its use including the one target restriction and the shared CC timer with every other hard CC. The intended mechanics are great, but just not practical in its context. Let me propose a change that I hope you will consider.

Proposed change to the base skill:

Eclipse
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. (8m range)

Proposed morphs:

Total Dark
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies and healing nearby allies for X% of the damage absorbed.

Unstable Core
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds and grants Major Evasion (20% dodge chance) for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. While slotted, you gain Minor Expedition (10% increased movement speed) at all times.

Additional thoughts:
This suggestion gives Templars a defensive ability that is analogous to Reflective Scale but fits more with the Templar niche. It addresses some Templar survivability problems and adds some needed utility (if you troll my thread with BoL hate I will ram my javelin right up your [snip]). Total Dark might be attractive for PvE tanks and PvE/PvP healers, while Unstable Core might be attractive to stamplars and magicka jabplars.

This is one set of ideas and I'm sure there are other great alternatives that have been proposed. Regardless, Eclipse needs an overhaul. I would love to hear some constructive player feedback on this suggestion.

Love the idea but this might be TOO good. We are Templar's after all..... :P

Joy_Division

This isn't a bad idea.

I still would like to see the original intent of the skill, i.e. directly debuffing a bad guy, work in some functional way. Though what you have here is 100% better than the overnerfed and impotent skill templars are burdened with atm.

Kaliki

Awesome idea, it would be fun to use in both pvp and pve, quite unlike the overnerfed thing we have now.

SturgeHammer

I use eclipse religiously, specifically unstable core, in pvp and my biggest issue is that it grants cc immunity.

Here is a list of all the positive things about its current design:

-I actually don't mind that CC break removes the bubble as it is unique in that it deals it's damage when cc broken. For example: I eclipse my target, toppling charge to them knocking them down and start spamming sweep. Now the opponent actually has a interesting decision to make because if they break the knockdown it also triggers the eclipse damage causing them to take more burst damage than they intended.

-Eclipse is good against ranged magicka builds as there is a chance they nuke themselves before they realize their spells are being reflected.

-It can do some serious work against other reflects. For example: A dk puts up scales then charges into fray and gets eclipsed. If the don't cc break it immediately, then they will likey eat a few reflected flares, frags or overload light attacks.

-It can be applied to dodge rolling targets, simlar to deadric curse.

-Also like curse, it is a handy way to uncloak NBs

- (Not throughly tested) Recently I've been reflecting a lot of bleed dots, my guess is that it is reflecting axe bleeds.

- It is an aoe, although not a good one. Occasionally you can pick up a kill if your opponent CC breaks near another low health enemy.


Overall, eclipse isn't ever awesome but it generally does something decent in almost any situation you can think of. My dream Eclipse is basically the same eclipse mechanically, but with the damage doubled and explodes when purged.

dodgehopper_ESO

SturgeHammer wrote: »

I use eclipse religiously, specifically unstable core, in pvp and my biggest issue is that it grants cc immunity.

Here is a list of all the positive things about its current design:

-I actually don't mind that CC break removes the bubble as it is unique in that it deals it's damage when cc broken. For example: I eclipse my target, toppling charge to them knocking them down and start spamming sweep. Now the opponent actually has a interesting decision to make because if they break the knockdown it also triggers the eclipse damage causing them to take more burst damage than they intended.

-Eclipse is good against ranged magicka builds as there is a chance they nuke themselves before they realize their spells are being reflected.

-It can do some serious work against other reflects. For example: A dk puts up scales then charges into fray and gets eclipsed. If the don't cc break it immediately, then they will likey eat a few reflected flares, frags or overload light attacks.

-It can be applied to dodge rolling targets, simlar to deadric curse.

-Also like curse, it is a handy way to uncloak NBs

- (Not throughly tested) Recently I've been reflecting a lot of bleed dots, my guess is that it is reflecting axe bleeds.

- It is an aoe, although not a good one. Occasionally you can pick up a kill if your opponent CC breaks near another low health enemy.


Overall, eclipse isn't ever awesome but it generally does something decent in almost any situation you can think of. My dream Eclipse is basically the same eclipse mechanically, but with the damage doubled and explodes when purged.

I actually like the notion of the DPS eclipse, and I could see it being more worthwhile if it actually punished the target more than it does now. Like many Templar abilities the cc immunity lasts way too long for what it does. My biggest beef with it is the cc immunity though. I'd be happy having a choice between DAMAGE and CC Immunity. I mostly want this skill for its countering effects. Personally as someone who likes to tank his Templar or at least play a crunchy dps in pvp, I'd love using this bubble/absorb reflect thing that is proposed by the OP. I've always had dragon scales envy on my Templar. That doesn't mean it should necessarily work that way, but at the least I'd like to see the skill MORE usable, and I think the cc Immunity is the big problem with it. People don't get a 'breakfree' on Curse, why should they get a breakfree on this skill? I think that sums up my issues with it entirely.

dodgehopper_ESO

or Reapers Mark for that matter.

SturgeHammer

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

SturgeHammer wrote: »

I use eclipse religiously, specifically unstable core, in pvp and my biggest issue is that it grants cc immunity.

Here is a list of all the positive things about its current design:

-I actually don't mind that CC break removes the bubble as it is unique in that it deals it's damage when cc broken. For example: I eclipse my target, toppling charge to them knocking them down and start spamming sweep. Now the opponent actually has a interesting decision to make because if they break the knockdown it also triggers the eclipse damage causing them to take more burst damage than they intended.

-Eclipse is good against ranged magicka builds as there is a chance they nuke themselves before they realize their spells are being reflected.

-It can do some serious work against other reflects. For example: A dk puts up scales then charges into fray and gets eclipsed. If the don't cc break it immediately, then they will likey eat a few reflected flares, frags or overload light attacks.

-It can be applied to dodge rolling targets, simlar to deadric curse.

-Also like curse, it is a handy way to uncloak NBs

- (Not throughly tested) Recently I've been reflecting a lot of bleed dots, my guess is that it is reflecting axe bleeds.

- It is an aoe, although not a good one. Occasionally you can pick up a kill if your opponent CC breaks near another low health enemy.


Overall, eclipse isn't ever awesome but it generally does something decent in almost any situation you can think of. My dream Eclipse is basically the same eclipse mechanically, but with the damage doubled and explodes when purged.

I actually like the notion of the DPS eclipse, and I could see it being more worthwhile if it actually punished the target more than it does now. Like many Templar abilities the cc immunity lasts way too long for what it does. My biggest beef with it is the cc immunity though. I'd be happy having a choice between DAMAGE and CC Immunity. I mostly want this skill for its countering effects. Personally as someone who likes to tank his Templar or at least play a crunchy dps in pvp, I'd love using this bubble/absorb reflect thing that is proposed by the OP. I've always had dragon scales envy on my Templar. That doesn't mean it should necessarily work that way, but at the least I'd like to see the skill MORE usable, and I think the cc Immunity is the big problem with it. People don't get a 'breakfree' on Curse, why should they get a breakfree on this skill? I think that sums up my issues with it entirely.

It's odd that my favorite and least favorite part about eclipse is the ability to cc break it.

Having it punish cc breaking is powerful, but under any other circumstance having it give away cc immunity without a real hard cc is a major drawback.

Ashamray

Solariken wrote: »

@Wrobel, Eclipse needs some tender love and care. I don't know anyone who still uses this ability. It has some very wonky design features that overly limit its use including the one target restriction and the shared CC timer with every other hard CC. The intended mechanics are great, but just not practical in its context. Let me propose a change that I hope you will consider.

Proposed change to the base skill:

Eclipse
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. (8m range)

Proposed morphs:

Total Dark
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies and healing nearby allies for X% of the damage absorbed.

Unstable Core
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds and grants Major Evasion (20% dodge chance) for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. While slotted, you gain Minor Expedition (10% increased movement speed) at all times.

Too strong. Again archers will suffer because they'll get additional untargetable opponent, meanwhile bow is already a secondary weapon. But I like your idea to turn Eclipse into buff.

Solariken

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@Wrobel, Eclipse needs some tender love and care. I don't know anyone who still uses this ability. It has some very wonky design features that overly limit its use including the one target restriction and the shared CC timer with every other hard CC. The intended mechanics are great, but just not practical in its context. Let me propose a change that I hope you will consider.

Proposed change to the base skill:

Eclipse
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. (8m range)

Proposed morphs:

Total Dark
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies and healing nearby allies for X% of the damage absorbed.

Unstable Core
Surround yourself with four lightless spheres that intercept any harmful projectiles for 4 seconds and grants Major Evasion (20% dodge chance) for 4 seconds. Each projectile intercepted causes a sphere to explode, dealing X Magic damage to nearby enemies. While slotted, you gain Minor Expedition (10% increased movement speed) at all times.

Too strong. Again archers will suffer because they'll get additional untargetable opponent, meanwhile bow is already a secondary weapon. But I like your idea to turn Eclipse into buff.

I'm not sure what you mean by this... if anything archers would be better off because they can trigger all the spheres more quickly than other builds, meaning they can start DPS'ing the Templar again sooner.

Ashamray

Solariken wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by this... if anything archers would be better off because they can trigger all the spheres more quickly than other builds, meaning they can start DPS'ing the Templar again sooner.

Templar can spam this Eclipse so 4 spheres never end. Maybe 2 spheres will be enough?

Solariken

SturgeHammer wrote: »

I use eclipse religiously, specifically unstable core, in pvp and my biggest issue is that it grants cc immunity.

Here is a list of all the positive things about its current design:

-I actually don't mind that CC break removes the bubble as it is unique in that it deals it's damage when cc broken. For example: I eclipse my target, toppling charge to them knocking them down and start spamming sweep. Now the opponent actually has a interesting decision to make because if they break the knockdown it also triggers the eclipse damage causing them to take more burst damage than they intended.

-Eclipse is good against ranged magicka builds as there is a chance they nuke themselves before they realize their spells are being reflected.

-It can do some serious work against other reflects. For example: A dk puts up scales then charges into fray and gets eclipsed. If the don't cc break it immediately, then they will likey eat a few reflected flares, frags or overload light attacks.

-It can be applied to dodge rolling targets, simlar to deadric curse.

-Also like curse, it is a handy way to uncloak NBs

- (Not throughly tested) Recently I've been reflecting a lot of bleed dots, my guess is that it is reflecting axe bleeds.

- It is an aoe, although not a good one. Occasionally you can pick up a kill if your opponent CC breaks near another low health enemy.


Overall, eclipse isn't ever awesome but it generally does something decent in almost any situation you can think of. My dream Eclipse is basically the same eclipse mechanically, but with the damage doubled and explodes when purged.

Those are all great points @SturgeHammer, but personally I feel that the negatives far outweigh the positives. Those of course being

1. If your target is already on CC lockout (which is very likely), no reflect bubble. You just wasted valuable time and will probably die because of it.
2. You only get one target to debuff, which severely limits the potency of the skill.

A self-buffing mechanic would be MUCH more reliable and much more useful in a fight that is more than 1v1.

Solariken

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by this... if anything archers would be better off because they can trigger all the spheres more quickly than other builds, meaning they can start DPS'ing the Templar again sooner.

Templar can spam this Eclipse so 4 spheres never end. Maybe 2 spheres will be enough?

I don't see how this would be any more of a problem than spamming Reflective Scale or Hardened Ward. The damage/healing would be balanced to the magicka cost such that spamming would be detrimental.

Ashamray

Solariken wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by this... if anything archers would be better off because they can trigger all the spheres more quickly than other builds, meaning they can start DPS'ing the Templar again sooner.

Templar can spam this Eclipse so 4 spheres never end. Maybe 2 spheres will be enough?

I don't see how this would be any more of a problem than spamming Reflective Scale or Hardened Ward. The damage/healing would be balanced to the magicka cost such that spamming would be detrimental.

Actually would be. Three spammers are worse then two
Well, if cost of your new Eclipse will be very high (more than BoL), it would be pretty nice ability.

dodgehopper_ESO

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by this... if anything archers would be better off because they can trigger all the spheres more quickly than other builds, meaning they can start DPS'ing the Templar again sooner.

Templar can spam this Eclipse so 4 spheres never end. Maybe 2 spheres will be enough?

I don't see how this would be any more of a problem than spamming Reflective Scale or Hardened Ward. The damage/healing would be balanced to the magicka cost such that spamming would be detrimental.

Actually would be. Three spammers are worse then two
Well, if cost of your new Eclipse will be very high (more than BoL), it would be pretty nice ability.

Scale it to reflective scales (which is very expensive) and problem solved. :P Speaking of which Eclipse is already costly, that's another reason I don't use it. I don't like skills or abilities that are that situational for such high cost.

Solariken

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by this... if anything archers would be better off because they can trigger all the spheres more quickly than other builds, meaning they can start DPS'ing the Templar again sooner.

Templar can spam this Eclipse so 4 spheres never end. Maybe 2 spheres will be enough?

I don't see how this would be any more of a problem than spamming Reflective Scale or Hardened Ward. The damage/healing would be balanced to the magicka cost such that spamming would be detrimental.

Actually would be. Three spammers are worse then two
Well, if cost of your new Eclipse will be very high (more than BoL), it would be pretty nice ability.

Well, you used to have three spammers back in the glory days of Blazing Shield. Templars have been taking some time off, but they're due for a comeback. :P

danno8

Would you guys accept the current 1 target limit and CC immunity of Eclipse if it reflected everything? I am talking physical and Magicka, ranged and melee? Maybe with a reduction to 2-3 seconds and drop the damage? I don't know but I love the idea of reflecting a WB.

A person who sees the huge globe on them knows they have to CC break or they will hurt themselves, or they can wait 2-3 seconds and get immunity that way (currently you don't get immunity if you just let it expire).

Solariken

danno8 wrote: »

Would you guys accept the current 1 target limit and CC immunity of Eclipse if it reflected everything? I am talking physical and Magicka, ranged and melee? Maybe with a reduction to 2-3 seconds and drop the damage? I don't know but I love the idea of reflecting a WB.

A person who sees the huge globe on them knows they have to CC break or they will hurt themselves, or they can wait 2-3 seconds and get immunity that way (currently you don't get immunity if you just let it expire).

I wouldn't like this, but that's just my preference. It seems counterintuitive that you would be able to Wrecking Blow or Teleport Strike yourself from a logistical standpoint.

If everything else were to remain as-is with the ability, I think one addition I WOULD accept is that the target cannot receive any healing at all while the sphere holds. Now THAT would be interesting.