BlackWater Blade damage

Rikumaru

Yasha wrote: »

Angus wrote: »

<rant>


Really, just want to see new players come into the game, have fun, and then have more fun as they learn - not be turned away by misinformation. It's a damn fun game if you've got a little spirit.

It is not fun if you are doing barely any damage and the players you are fighting are doing massive damage, and basically the only way for you to do a similar level of damage is to level a toon to V16, get lots of CP and money, and then go back to the non-Vet campaign and make a tweaked out toon with OP gear to wreck the face of new players.

The way the system currently works in BwB is terribly flawed and presents an extreme barrier for new players to have fun, and is disappointing for players who previously were able to enjoy BwB as the only place in ESO where pvp was somewhat normalized and therefore more dependant on skill than on having the best gear.

What it makes people think is "Why do I even bother playing this".

Agreed. Last patch you could roll with gear with no 5 piece set bonuses and still destroy players with gear. This patch if you dont have gear and you fight someone with good gear you are pretty much screwed. What they should have done is change that people outlevel gear in non-vet cyrodill giving new players a chance to buy sets which will last them. This would also give non-vet a unique feel as players would have more sets to use and come up with different builds to vet-pvp like before this patch.

mcurley

Yasha wrote: »

mcurley wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

There is the VET campaign for people who like pvp based on gear rather than skill. There used to be a non-Vet campaign for new players and for those that enjoyed a more skill based version of pvp. Now there is no avenue for relatively normalized pvp, and the situation is even worse for players in BwB because they have to maintain purple gear every few levels and have CP to be competitive.

Will you please stop spreading this ridiculous lie.

As far as saying the old version was more balanced or "normalized"... there were just as many "OP" heros running around BWB back in the day as there are running around now. Not more, not less... if you played in BWB with both forms of Battle Leveling then you should know this.

I could say the same for your comments. Please post you vids of your undergeared toon pawning 5vs1, or even standing up to a well geared player.

Some players can now hit me with a light attack for the same damage as my "nukes" hit them for. This was impossible in the old system of BwB, because damage was basically normalized. I never got hit for 15K wrecking blows or dragon leaps- which is now something that happens quite regularly. I was able to be competitive even in level one gear. It was a much more skill based game back then and MUCH easier and more friendly for new players.

I've never said an "undergeared" player will be able to 1v5... that is completely asinine. I have not once been in a 5v1 or 1v5 that didn't end very abruptly with the 1 getting slaughtered (except maybe when the 1 is an emp). I've said very clearly that a person in green armor can effectively contribute to any fight they engage in... not that they are going to roflstomp their opponents.

Maybe show us the gear you are using that you are getting 2-shotted in... because even my pajama wearing NB doesn't get hit for 15k WBs.... I think I've seen 10k once or twice but even that won't 2-shot me.

My 2 pvp toons are DC on NA BWB... you are more than welcome to come fight me or fight with me to see that you do not need purple gear to compete.

I don't do videos but I'll craft some white gear to use for my next few days of pvp and report back.

Svvord - Magicka NB
Lavv - Magicka DK

/whisper me anytime

Angus

mcurley wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Please post you vids of your undergeared toon pawning 5vs1, or even standing up to a well geared player.

I've never said an "undergeared" player will be able to 1v5... that is completely asinine.

Today, it's unlikely. Back in the day, with the old battle scaling, this did happen against five new/bad players - e.g supermagickatankDK. People found it a turn off. That's one of the reasons I'm vehement that we should not go back to the same system.

mcurley

Angus wrote: »

mcurley wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Please post you vids of your undergeared toon pawning 5vs1, or even standing up to a well geared player.

I've never said an "undergeared" player will be able to 1v5... that is completely asinine.

Today, it's unlikely. Back in the day, with the old battle scaling, this did happen against five new/bad players - e.g supermagickatankDK. People found it a turn off. That's one of the reasons I'm vehement that we should not go back to the same system.

Yea I was referring to the new system. 1v5s don't happen (or at least I haven't seen it yet)

2v5s... that's a different story.

Angus

mcurley wrote: »

2v5s... that's a different story.

Not when my four purple-geared EP NA PC BWB Tweakville buddies and I show up and wreck you two in your ***-tighties with our 15k wrecking blow spam and leaps

Angus

Silly censors - that's supposed to say "white" + "y" and not a slur.

mcurley

So for kicks during lunch I went home and crafted my DKs exact armor set and enchantments all in white quality to compare it to what I'm currently using (blue armor/enchantments and purple weapons). I have blue spell damage enchantments on lvl 20 Warlock jewelry still at lvl 28 so I didn't change these for the comparison.

From white to blue (purple weapons) unbuffed stats changed as follows:

-Max Magicka went up by 389
-Max Health went up by 780
-Spell Resistance went up by 554
-Physical Resistance went up by 577
-Spell Damage went up by 141

The only increase even worth mentioning is the 141 increase of spell damage. This would likely be closer to 115 if a green weapon was used instead of a white one. So the difference between a white and purple weapon is about as much as 1 additional Spell Damage enchantment.

Granted, my DK gives up a decent amount of potential spell damage and magicka for more mitigation and life but that's because I built him for survival. Going max magicka and spell damage would cause these numbers to increase a bit more but that is all part of the give and take of actually having to make build decisions past which traits to use.... I'm also using the Serpent Mundus Stone because I need the stamina regeneration more than anything else.

Take this as you will, but I don't see how these small stat increases are causing an equally skilled opponent to rolfstomp you during a fight.

Angus

mcurley wrote: »

So for kicks during lunch I went home and crafted my DKs exact armor set and enchantments all in white quality to compare it to what I'm currently using (blue armor/enchantments and purple weapons). I have blue spell damage enchantments on lvl 20 Warlock jewelry still at lvl 28 so I didn't change these for the comparison.

From white to blue (purple weapons) unbuffed stats changed as follows:

-Max Magicka went up by 389
-Max Health went up by 780
-Spell Resistance went up by 554
-Physical Resistance went up by 577
-Spell Damage went up by 141

The only increase even worth mentioning is the 141 increase of spell damage. This would likely be closer to 115 if a green weapon was used instead of a white one. So the difference between a white and purple weapon is about as much as 1 additional Spell Damage enchantment.

Granted, my DK gives up a decent amount of potential spell damage and magicka for more mitigation and life but that's because I built him for survival. Going max magicka and spell damage would cause these numbers to increase a bit more but that is all part of the give and take of actually having to make build decisions past which traits to use.... I'm also using the Serpent Mundus Stone because I need the stamina regeneration more than anything else.

Take this as you will, but I don't see how these small stat increases are causing an equally skilled opponent to rolfstomp you during a fight.

Basically, an extra light attack or two (over the course of a fight) on the part of an undergeared, same build would even the odds with you.

QuebraRegra

Rikumaru wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Angus wrote: »

<rant>


Really, just want to see new players come into the game, have fun, and then have more fun as they learn - not be turned away by misinformation. It's a damn fun game if you've got a little spirit.

It is not fun if you are doing barely any damage and the players you are fighting are doing massive damage, and basically the only way for you to do a similar level of damage is to level a toon to V16, get lots of CP and money, and then go back to the non-Vet campaign and make a tweaked out toon with OP gear to wreck the face of new players.

The way the system currently works in BwB is terribly flawed and presents an extreme barrier for new players to have fun, and is disappointing for players who previously were able to enjoy BwB as the only place in ESO where pvp was somewhat normalized and therefore more dependant on skill than on having the best gear.

What it makes people think is "Why do I even bother playing this".

Agreed. Last patch you could roll with gear with no 5 piece set bonuses and still destroy players with gear. This patch if you dont have gear and you fight someone with good gear you are pretty much screwed. What they should have done is change that people outlevel gear in non-vet cyrodill giving new players a chance to buy sets which will last them. This would also give non-vet a unique feel as players would have more sets to use and come up with different builds to vet-pvp like before this patch.

I remember when naked horse surfing heroes could take keeps and wade into zergs in NON-VET PVP and gear be damned! The whole point of the NON-VET campaigns was to allow the beginners, casuals to have a balanced fight since they wouldn't likely have had time to grind for gear yet, etc.

Again, why should CP have any bearing on a NON-VET campaign? It's the antithesis! But I guess those that "earned" it, must epeen over the noobs sho the show must go on.

Fewer and fewer reasons to even bother to play...

Drakilian

mcurley wrote: »

So for kicks during lunch I went home and crafted my DKs exact armor set and enchantments all in white quality to compare it to what I'm currently using (blue armor/enchantments and purple weapons). I have blue spell damage enchantments on lvl 20 Warlock jewelry still at lvl 28 so I didn't change these for the comparison.

From white to blue (purple weapons) unbuffed stats changed as follows:

-Max Magicka went up by 389
-Max Health went up by 780
-Spell Resistance went up by 554
-Physical Resistance went up by 577
-Spell Damage went up by 141

The only increase even worth mentioning is the 141 increase of spell damage. This would likely be closer to 115 if a green weapon was used instead of a white one. So the difference between a white and purple weapon is about as much as 1 additional Spell Damage enchantment.

Granted, my DK gives up a decent amount of potential spell damage and magicka for more mitigation and life but that's because I built him for survival. Going max magicka and spell damage would cause these numbers to increase a bit more but that is all part of the give and take of actually having to make build decisions past which traits to use.... I'm also using the Serpent Mundus Stone because I need the stamina regeneration more than anything else.

Take this as you will, but I don't see how these small stat increases are causing an equally skilled opponent to rolfstomp you during a fight.

For actual accuracy:

Recraft your DK's armour in green. Do not make it set armour, do not use set jewelry. Don't make all your armour the same level, make sure it's all over a range of four levels. Also, three of your seven armour traits should be well-fitted or sturdy. For your jewelry, don't get perfect traits and don't use any weapon damage enchantments, use only cost reduction or regen (because weapon/spell damage glyphs don't drop in the wild). Your jewelry should be two green pieces and maybe a blue or purple piece, though their levels should be wildly off - maybe 10-25 levels below your level (because "finding" good jewelry is almost impossible through questing).

Your weapon can be, at best, blue with a defending, charged or powered trait (Cyro delve bosses drop blue weapons like candy).

For food or drinks, only use single-stat food or drinks, maybe the Cyrodil foods if you want to splurge. While you're at it, spread your attributes around. Maybe a 2:1:1 ratio for your attribute points.

For potions, you are limited to random drops and maybe a Cyro vendor pot.

Also make sure to disable every single one of your champ points (and remember that champ points do not just provide the bonuses stated from spending them, but that you get boosts to max health, Magicka and stamina the more CPs you have, so note that you'll have an unfair advantage due to having higher max stats than others. This difference is best observed with new level one characters, you'll note that before spending any points or getting any gear your health will be higher than other level ones due to champ points).

You are now geared like a newbie looking to find out what Cyrodil is like, and maybe even a knowledgeable newbie who's been secure in zergs and hasn't learnt anything because if it. Enjoy getting murdered by a twink's stamblade in 5 purple hundings, 4 purple morkuldins and blue 3 piece robust/weapon damage shadow walker jewelry, all purple enchants for stamina, and weapon damage enchants on their dual sharpened maces.

The amount you'll get wrecked while geared like this and the frustration you will suffer will pale in comparison to an actual newbie, for the simple fact that you know you can just get better gear and start wrecking face again any time. Meanwhile, the newbie just doesn't play in Cyrodill anymore because it's nothing but twinks and ***.

It's such a mystery that PC NA has the lowest PVP population of all the servers isn't it? What with the shining examples of fair players we have posting in this thread.

Drakilian

Oh, and 1v5s don't happen? I do them all the time, once even solo defended Blackboot (me and a friend capped it from the inside when half the map was yellow, then friend had to leave) against a full group of AD who were so terrified of me and pissed off that they couldn't take the keep even after they'd broken the inner (I'd just push them back and kill a few each time they tried). THAT's how ridiculous a twink can be, and I'm nowhere near the worst twink in BwB (not even halfway to Cp cap, jewelry and enchants are usually a mess, only used drop pots).

I felt so bad about what I was doing I just dove into them and let em' kill me. Even stayed so they could teabag me a bit (I honestly deserved it).

I'm not even bragging here, none of these were fair fights and I'm no maestro, but I have to make myself Op because if I don't I can't counter the other faction's twinks for my faction. Because see, if a group doesn't have their own twink to counter the other side's twink, they just won't win. Simple as that.

IcyDeadPeople

Yasha wrote: »

Angus wrote: »

<rant>


Really, just want to see new players come into the game, have fun, and then have more fun as they learn - not be turned away by misinformation. It's a damn fun game if you've got a little spirit.

It is not fun if you are doing barely any damage and the players you are fighting are doing massive damage, and basically the only way for you to do a similar level of damage is to level a toon to V16, get lots of CP and money, and then go back to the non-Vet campaign and make a tweaked out toon with OP gear to wreck the face of new players.

The way the system currently works in BwB is terribly flawed and presents an extreme barrier for new players to have fun, and is disappointing for players who previously were able to enjoy BwB as the only place in ESO where pvp was somewhat normalized and therefore more dependant on skill than on having the best gear.

What it makes people think is "Why do I even bother playing this".

Reportedly there will soon be a non-vet/non-CP campaign and another open to veteran rank players.

Angus

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Angus wrote: »

<rant>


Really, just want to see new players come into the game, have fun, and then have more fun as they learn - not be turned away by misinformation. It's a damn fun game if you've got a little spirit.

It is not fun if you are doing barely any damage and the players you are fighting are doing massive damage, and basically the only way for you to do a similar level of damage is to level a toon to V16, get lots of CP and money, and then go back to the non-Vet campaign and make a tweaked out toon with OP gear to wreck the face of new players.

The way the system currently works in BwB is terribly flawed and presents an extreme barrier for new players to have fun, and is disappointing for players who previously were able to enjoy BwB as the only place in ESO where pvp was somewhat normalized and therefore more dependant on skill than on having the best gear.

What it makes people think is "Why do I even bother playing this".

Reportedly there will soon be a non-vet/non-CP campaign and another open to veteran rank players.

Unfortunately there will still be the gear imbalance.

Softcaps would be perfect.

Yasha

Drakilian wrote: »

Oh, and 1v5s don't happen? I do them all the time, once even solo defended Blackboot (me and a friend capped it from the inside when half the map was yellow, then friend had to leave) against a full group of AD who were so terrified of me and pissed off that they couldn't take the keep even after they'd broken the inner (I'd just push them back and kill a few each time they tried). THAT's how ridiculous a twink can be, and I'm nowhere near the worst twink in BwB (not even halfway to Cp cap, jewelry and enchants are usually a mess, only used drop pots).

I felt so bad about what I was doing I just dove into them and let em' kill me. Even stayed so they could teabag me a bit (I honestly deserved it).

I'm not even bragging here, none of these were fair fights and I'm no maestro, but I have to make myself Op because if I don't I can't counter the other faction's twinks for my faction. Because see, if a group doesn't have their own twink to counter the other side's twink, they just won't win. Simple as that.

Thank you for writing this, it is almost exactly what happens every time I log on, especially if I am playing when the population is low. We will scrounge together a group of 10 or so players take down the outer and then a couple of OP dudes will come in and wipe our whole group.

Over and over again since the change to BwB I have seen one player just decimate other teams. I have found that its only fun if you are in a team that also has an OP dude that can 5vs1. You have someone like that and suddenly you can do interesting stuff like gank other players or stealth attack back lines of raids and break up a siege.

Last night I got hit by a 10K snipe, then disoriented, then hit by another 10k snipe -dead. It was impossible to do that much damage in BwB before the change (and before CP). A week or so ago I was on my sorcerer and there was a guy who had shields that looked bigger than my health bar, meanwhile my shields are like a bee's *** bigger than my health bar. Luckily he was on our side. I watched him destroy everyone. Groups of players chase him around, and they all die.

Its difficult for me to understand why people are denying that this happens, or saying that's all fine.

Angus

Yasha wrote: »

Its difficult for me to understand why people are denying that this happens, or saying that's all fine.

I don't think anybody in four pages of this thread was denying there's imbalance.

I think they're denying some of your hyperbolic anecdotes, and I personally am denying your claim that BWB was a mostly skill-based theater before the recent ZOSpocalypse.

All of us were starting out once. You seem to forget that. As someone who has almost exclusively leveled through PvP since I started this game, I'd hate to see new players have to deal with the rotten, overly exploited battle scaling we used to have before. It's still bad now, but much, much easier for a new player to grasp and get on board with.

If ZOS happens to see and consider this thread, I'd hate for them to get a completely one-sided view.

Drakilian wrote: »

For actual accuracy:

Recraft your DK's armour in green. Do not make it set armour, do not use set jewelry. Don't make all your armour the same level, make sure it's all over a range of four levels. Also, three of your seven armour traits should be well-fitted or sturdy. For your jewelry, don't get perfect traits and don't use any weapon damage enchantments, use only cost reduction or regen (because weapon/spell damage glyphs don't drop in the wild). Your jewelry should be two green pieces and maybe a blue or purple piece, though their levels should be wildly off - maybe 10-25 levels below your level (because "finding" good jewelry is almost impossible through questing).

Your weapon can be, at best, blue with a defending, charged or powered trait (Cyro delve bosses drop blue weapons like candy).

For food or drinks, only use single-stat food or drinks, maybe the Cyrodil foods if you want to splurge. While you're at it, spread your attributes around. Maybe a 2:1:1 ratio for your attribute points.

For potions, you are limited to random drops and maybe a Cyro vendor pot.

Also make sure to disable every single one of your champ points (and remember that champ points do not just provide the bonuses stated from spending them, but that you get boosts to max health, Magicka and stamina the more CPs you have, so note that you'll have an unfair advantage due to having higher max stats than others. This difference is best observed with new level one characters, you'll note that before spending any points or getting any gear your health will be higher than other level ones due to champ points).

You are now geared like a newbie looking to find out what Cyrodil is like, and maybe even a knowledgeable newbie who's been secure in zergs and hasn't learnt anything because if it. Enjoy getting murdered by a twink's stamblade in 5 purple hundings, 4 purple morkuldins and blue 3 piece robust/weapon damage shadow walker jewelry, all purple enchants for stamina, and weapon damage enchants on their dual sharpened maces.

The amount you'll get wrecked while geared like this and the frustration you will suffer will pale in comparison to an actual newbie, for the simple fact that you know you can just get better gear and start wrecking face again any time. Meanwhile, the newbie just doesn't play in Cyrodill anymore because it's nothing but twinks and ***.

It's such a mystery that PC NA has the lowest PVP population of all the servers isn't it? What with the shining examples of fair players we have posting in this thread.

I was that guy for a while. Even with the old battle scaling, I still got my ass handed to me and it was no less frustrating. Especially when I tried to get a good build/gear with what money I could scrape together, but none of it worked, since battle scaling worked in strange ways.

Then I learned what kind of gear I needed from the big bad players with good gear, and went and got it. That's the essence of an MMO. Now I craft it for new players and help them with builds.

If there's a great alternative, I'm all in. The nature of "player-versus-player" means that someone's going to win, and someone's going to lose, so I'm not sure what alternatives besides softcaps there are. Have any constructive ideas?

I also know that an experienced, naked player is going to destroy any new player, no matter what the player's gear. Softcaps don't help there.

mcurley

Drakilian wrote: »

mcurley wrote: »

So for kicks during lunch I went home and crafted my DKs exact armor set and enchantments all in white quality to compare it to what I'm currently using (blue armor/enchantments and purple weapons). I have blue spell damage enchantments on lvl 20 Warlock jewelry still at lvl 28 so I didn't change these for the comparison.

From white to blue (purple weapons) unbuffed stats changed as follows:

-Max Magicka went up by 389
-Max Health went up by 780
-Spell Resistance went up by 554
-Physical Resistance went up by 577
-Spell Damage went up by 141

The only increase even worth mentioning is the 141 increase of spell damage. This would likely be closer to 115 if a green weapon was used instead of a white one. So the difference between a white and purple weapon is about as much as 1 additional Spell Damage enchantment.

Granted, my DK gives up a decent amount of potential spell damage and magicka for more mitigation and life but that's because I built him for survival. Going max magicka and spell damage would cause these numbers to increase a bit more but that is all part of the give and take of actually having to make build decisions past which traits to use.... I'm also using the Serpent Mundus Stone because I need the stamina regeneration more than anything else.

Take this as you will, but I don't see how these small stat increases are causing an equally skilled opponent to rolfstomp you during a fight.

For actual accuracy:

Recraft your DK's armour in green. Do not make it set armour, do not use set jewelry. Don't make all your armour the same level, make sure it's all over a range of four levels. Also, three of your seven armour traits should be well-fitted or sturdy. For your jewelry, don't get perfect traits and don't use any weapon damage enchantments, use only cost reduction or regen (because weapon/spell damage glyphs don't drop in the wild). Your jewelry should be two green pieces and maybe a blue or purple piece, though their levels should be wildly off - maybe 10-25 levels below your level (because "finding" good jewelry is almost impossible through questing).

Your weapon can be, at best, blue with a defending, charged or powered trait (Cyro delve bosses drop blue weapons like candy).

For food or drinks, only use single-stat food or drinks, maybe the Cyrodil foods if you want to splurge. While you're at it, spread your attributes around. Maybe a 2:1:1 ratio for your attribute points.

For potions, you are limited to random drops and maybe a Cyro vendor pot.

Also make sure to disable every single one of your champ points (and remember that champ points do not just provide the bonuses stated from spending them, but that you get boosts to max health, Magicka and stamina the more CPs you have, so note that you'll have an unfair advantage due to having higher max stats than others. This difference is best observed with new level one characters, you'll note that before spending any points or getting any gear your health will be higher than other level ones due to champ points).

You are now geared like a newbie looking to find out what Cyrodil is like, and maybe even a knowledgeable newbie who's been secure in zergs and hasn't learnt anything because if it. Enjoy getting murdered by a twink's stamblade in 5 purple hundings, 4 purple morkuldins and blue 3 piece robust/weapon damage shadow walker jewelry, all purple enchants for stamina, and weapon damage enchants on their dual sharpened maces.

The amount you'll get wrecked while geared like this and the frustration you will suffer will pale in comparison to an actual newbie, for the simple fact that you know you can just get better gear and start wrecking face again any time. Meanwhile, the newbie just doesn't play in Cyrodill anymore because it's nothing but twinks and ***.

It's such a mystery that PC NA has the lowest PVP population of all the servers isn't it? What with the shining examples of fair players we have posting in this thread.

So you are arguing that a new player doesn't have the knowledge of the game to know which sets to buy at a vendor or how to even how gear their hero at all. Interesting. I had that exact same experience when I started out. It was absolute torture trying to figure everything out. Especially when I started trying to buy things that I thought would make me better but ended up doing literally nothing. At least now as new players learn what to do to be more effective those things will actually work.

This is the solution to every new players problems: practice, talk to people who stomp you into the ground, and learn things. It really is that simple.... it won't happen over night, but you will get better the more you play (just like every other game in existence).

You're arguing that a new player is a new player... we know this. As a new player you should not expect to run into a game and beat people left and right. Expect a learning curve in every game or you will be sorely disappointed.

Also, my test was valid. I used gear that absolutely any person in the game can acquire and compared it to gear that was previously suggested in this thread as a minimum requirement to be "competitive" in BWB.

Last night I ran around in my white gear for my short spat in BWB and the only difference I noticed was the color of my armor.

Note: I have 90 CPs and have repeatedly agreed with the notion of CPs being removed from BWB... having a stat advantage simply because you've played for more time is not my idea of fair. Having a similar stat advantage from learning how gear works and then implementing your acquired knowledge into a build is completely different.

Drakilian wrote: »

Oh, and 1v5s don't happen? I do them all the time, once even solo defended Blackboot (me and a friend capped it from the inside when half the map was yellow, then friend had to leave) against a full group of AD who were so terrified of me and pissed off that they couldn't take the keep even after they'd broken the inner (I'd just push them back and kill a few each time they tried). THAT's how ridiculous a twink can be, and I'm nowhere near the worst twink in BwB (not even halfway to Cp cap, jewelry and enchants are usually a mess, only used drop pots).

I felt so bad about what I was doing I just dove into them and let em' kill me. Even stayed so they could teabag me a bit (I honestly deserved it).

I'm not even bragging here, none of these were fair fights and I'm no maestro, but I have to make myself Op because if I don't I can't counter the other faction's twinks for my faction. Because see, if a group doesn't have their own twink to counter the other side's twink, they just won't win. Simple as that.

I would love to see you in a 1v5 (if this is true I'd really love to duel you as well). Unless you are against 5 players who literally just turned on the game for the first time within the last week I don't see how this is possible without emp buffs. Surviving for a long time I have seen... but wiping 5 players I'd need to see to believe (and most likely I would just laugh at how absolutely clueless your opponents are).

I've successfully defended keeps alone versus groups before as well... with both versions of Battle Leveling. This isn't a result of you having gear, it's a result of you having more knowledge and experience than the players you are fighting... how can you guys not understand this?

Drakilian

mcurley wrote: »

So you are arguing that a new player doesn't have the knowledge of the game to know which sets to buy at a vendor or how to even how gear their hero at all. Interesting. I had that exact same experience when I started out. It was absolute torture trying to figure everything out. Especially when I started trying to buy things that I thought would make me better but ended up doing literally nothing. At least now as new players learn what to do to be more effective those things will actually work.

This is the solution to every new players problems: practice, talk to people who stomp you into the ground, and learn things. It really is that simple.... it won't happen over night, but you will get better the more you play (just like every other game in existence).

You're arguing that a new player is a new player... we know this. As a new player you should not expect to run into a game and beat people left and right. Expect a learning curve in every game or you will be sorely disappointed.

Also, my test was valid. I used gear that absolutely any person in the game can acquire and compared it to gear that was previously suggested in this thread as a minimum requirement to be "competitive" in BWB.

Last night I ran around in my white gear for my short spat in BWB and the only difference I noticed was the color of my armor.

Note: I have 90 CPs and have repeatedly agreed with the notion of CPs being removed from BWB... having a stat advantage simply because you've played for more time is not my idea of fair. Having a similar stat advantage from learning how gear works and then implementing your acquired knowledge into a build is completely different.

I'm an avid theorycrafter, I actually enjoy dealing with mechanics (however obscure) and making builds, particularly for PvP, and figuring out what to use was never an issue for me in the game. You know what was though? Gold.

I see a lot of rich man's waving asides in this thread, some guy said earlier that "All it'll cost you throughout your career in BwB is 50K gold". I have to laugh. Not because he's wrong, but because he says "all it will cost you", as if that's a small amount of currency for a new player who has no idea what he's doing.

Consider the following: A new player has no money. Not no money like "oh my gosh I only haz 40k gold", I mean NO money. They can't make any money off of what they collect because it's all worthless, unless they sell the equipment they collect to NPC vendors - except they can't, because they need to deconstruct everything they can get their hands on so they can level their crafts.

They have no crafting capabilities even if they work at it because crafting takes a damn long time with a new character and no help, and they have no traits researched. They might be able to level provisionning to max in a few minutes if they find their way into a crafting guild that doesn't care about provisionning mats (as I did). They have no skill points to invest in any of the crafts even if they do manage to somehow rapidly level them with the help of others.

So as a result you have people who are poor and have pick-up gear because they cannot yet craft anything worthwhile. Even a simple two traits on everything will take forever because they'll only have one slot unlocked for research for a long time. The only way they can get good gear is to sacrifice their efforts to learn crafting and sell their stuff to vendors so they can buy a few pieces of set gear and some nice enchantments. No one will (or at least they shouldn't) do this if they want to benefit in the long-term, as crafting is both vital and simple in this game.

This is natural. No new player in an MMO will ever be able to effectively do well at any of these unless they play an obscenely large amount of the time. The trouble comes when players who DO have awesome stuff and crafter toons and money and experience, come down to *** all over these new players. This happens for two reasons:

1- Vet PvP is ***. It's actual garbage for a solo player and group play is mindless AoE mashing. I'm not even talking about the lag (thought that's also bad), i'm talking about the fact that vet PvP is optimized, largely professional and exploitative instead of the more chaotic and fun lowbie campaign fights. It's honestly boring in comparison, except for some of the small-scale in IC (save for the nightblades, *** the nightblades. My second most played character is my stamina nightblade Drakilian the HIdden, and I still hate them). A lot of players get a taste of Vet PvP and their only options there are to either join the zerg or get zerged. They decide to try a third option: Quit this *** and stick to the PvP that got you to love the game in the first place (in BwB).

2- Killing newbies makes you feel glorious. People like myself might flee from vet PvP but there are just as many who come to non-vet because they like crushing newbies under their heels. This is sadly common and i've seen way too much of it in some otherwise fine players and people.

So you end up with an inherently unfair fight. Vet players should never be able to fight new players. The obvious solution would be to lock vet players out of non-vet campaigns entirely, but that would suck for vet players who don't like vet PvP. The next available solution would therefore be to make the level and quality of equipment unimportant. I liked Orsinium's patch a lot because it gave me so much more build versatility but I also have a lot of sympathy for new players coming into this system. Level and quality of equipment mattering is just another thing that gives people with an unfair advantage even more of an unfair advantage, and costs new players to the game far too much gold to keep their characters effective. Sure, have set bonuses and traits if you really want to, and let the way attributes are arranged change your skill values, and let passives and skills have a tangible effect on your character, but don't make how much money you spend on your equipment give you any sort of advantage against poorer players. That's just not fair.

I'm not saying that gear shouldn't matter at all, and i'm not saying theorycrafting should be worthless (far from it, I do it quite a bit myself), but there has to be some limitations on the advantages so many people are getting here besides "How much gold are you willing to waste annihilating people"?

I would love to see you in a 1v5 (if this is true I'd really love to duel you as well). Unless you are against 5 players who literally just turned on the game for the first time within the last week I don't see how this is possible without emp buffs. Surviving for a long time I have seen... but wiping 5 players I'd need to see to believe (and most likely I would just laugh at how absolutely clueless your opponents are).

I've successfully defended keeps alone versus groups before as well... with both versions of Battle Leveling. This isn't a result of you having gear, it's a result of you having more knowledge and experience than the players you are fighting... how can you guys not understand this?

Name is @Drakilian , i'm on PC NA and my toons are split between AD and EP (though I have no battle-worthy toons on AD yet), add me and we can duel anytime (that goes to anyone on the forums, of course, not just the wonderfully well-spoken mcurley)

I'm not saying i'm 1v5ing GOOD players, that doesn't happen (if a player can be 1v5ed they just simply aren't good), but my current (second) BwB toon is a stamblade vampire and fighting multiple players is a joke, even just average players get mowed down. After the healer(s) dies (always kill the templar first) then nothing can save anyone from you. My only banes are high health-regen (4-5k) tanks, I sacrificed the burst i'd need to kill them to run drinks and I use weapon damage/disease enchants instead of poison/disease.

Most of the time I just spend hunting down other twinks though. You'll know them by sight after a week or so in BwB. The names are also usually a giveaway (typically the funnier the name, the more dangerous the player. I'm not kidding). It's also a bit comical to see a train of10-12 players in my faction being led around by two people until myself or someone else pops in to actually consistently CC or deal some high burst to the one casting heals, etc.

Angus

Drakilian wrote: »

The obvious solution would be to lock vet players out of non-vet campaigns entirely, but that would suck for vet players who don't like vet PvP.

Also sucks for vet players, who really don't enjoy (can't-stand won't-play) PvE, who are leveling alts. Unless we get a "vet-only non-vet" (you know what I'm saying), in which case I can't play with my new-to-the-game friends anymore... it's a conundrum.

Drakilian wrote: »

The next available solution would therefore be to make the level and quality of equipment unimportant.

...

Sure, have set bonuses and traits if you really want to, and let the way attributes are arranged change your skill values, and let passives and skills have a tangible effect on your character, but don't make how much money you spend on your equipment give you any sort of advantage against poorer players. That's just not fair.

That's a solid suggestion. Still, I think the end result will be vet players stomping new players with bonuses/traits/passives etc, just like now, and just like before Orsinium. Life exploits imbalances.

Either way, it might be closest to the best of both worlds.

I'm curious about the no-CPs campaign coming soon - does that mean CPs are disabled, or does it mean you can't get in if you have CP's (analogous to how a vet toon can't enter nonvet)? Might make the whole thing moot

Yasha

Angus wrote: »

Drakilian wrote: »

The next available solution would therefore be to make the level and quality of equipment unimportant.

...

Sure, have set bonuses and traits if you really want to, and let the way attributes are arranged change your skill values, and let passives and skills have a tangible effect on your character, but don't make how much money you spend on your equipment give you any sort of advantage against poorer players. That's just not fair.

That's a solid suggestion. Still, I think the end result will be vet players stomping new players with bonuses/traits/passives etc, just like now, and just like before Orsinium. Life exploits imbalances.

Either way, it might be closest to the best of both worlds.

I'm curious about the no-CPs campaign coming soon - does that mean CPs are disabled, or does it mean you can't get in if you have CP's (analogous to how a vet toon can't enter nonvet)? Might make the whole thing moot

They would still have an advantage, but the degree of power gap would be significantly scaled back, which would make the game much more enjoyable (except for those players who like stomping undergeared players). This is the type of tweak to the system I think needs to happen.

IxSTALKERxI

It will be great when champion points are removed from Blackwater Blade. I don't think it is enough though. Without softcaps it will still be easy for a rich player to have a huge advantage just from gear alone.

~Nigel the Great

Alucardo

Remember when you could yolo an entire 40 levels with level 10 gear, and you still had gold left because you didn't spend it all on purple weapons every 2 levels? Oh man, those were the days.

Valencer

Would give a lot to get the old blackwater blade back, but I guess there's no chance of them ever reverting this change for non-vet PvP.

Me personally, I just dislike the damage-stacking meta of vet and the eternal gear crafting requirement we have in BwB right now. The new battle levelling is also extremely off-putting to new players who cant craft much and don't have much gold.

Beyond that, non-vet combat used to be largely skill-based instead of gear-based because gear didn't matter much and that was unlike anything the rest of ESO offered... a lot of people enjoyed that. I guess it was just an oversight on ZOS' part which they finally "fixed" with the Orsinium update. Shame.

Valen_Byte

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

It will be great when champion points are removed from Blackwater Blade. I don't think it is enough though. Without softcaps it will still be easy for a rich player to have a huge advantage just from gear alone.

~Nigel the Great

I agree on the CP ofc. However, the gear is something that can be overcome.

For example: Lvl 10 comes in with drop non-set gear, joins my group, and we help them to understand what matters and what doesn't in Bwb. My wife and I have geared new players at no cost to them. We have bought horses for them. We do our best to help the new players. If this sort of thing were more common, our faction would do nothing but benefit.

On the flip side, CP cannot be overcome during a new players time in Bwb. They cant earn CP until after they have vetted out and then it is too late. They get exited to finally be getting CP so they take that character into vet and get smashed....and frustrated...and leave....and never come back. Its a shame really.

Vet pvp is just fooked and I see no way for it to ever get better. Unless maybe just make all PVP more standardized...but geeze, could you just hear the crying now if the leets had to engage in fair fights?

IxSTALKERxI

Valen_Byte wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

It will be great when champion points are removed from Blackwater Blade. I don't think it is enough though. Without softcaps it will still be easy for a rich player to have a huge advantage just from gear alone.

~Nigel the Great

I agree on the CP ofc. However, the gear is something that can be overcome.

For example: Lvl 10 comes in with drop non-set gear, joins my group, and we help them to understand what matters and what doesn't in Bwb. My wife and I have geared new players at no cost to them. We have bought horses for them. We do our best to help the new players. If this sort of thing were more common, our faction would do nothing but benefit.

That's great that there are people like you out there who help new players obtain armor sets. But I don't think it's enough... Unless you are willing to spend 200k + gold on each new player they will always be at a large disadvantage.

Drakilian

Jesus *** nigel

Valen_Byte

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

It will be great when champion points are removed from Blackwater Blade. I don't think it is enough though. Without softcaps it will still be easy for a rich player to have a huge advantage just from gear alone.

~Nigel the Great

I agree on the CP ofc. However, the gear is something that can be overcome.

For example: Lvl 10 comes in with drop non-set gear, joins my group, and we help them to understand what matters and what doesn't in Bwb. My wife and I have geared new players at no cost to them. We have bought horses for them. We do our best to help the new players. If this sort of thing were more common, our faction would do nothing but benefit.

That's great that there are people like you out there who help new players obtain armor sets. But I don't think it's enough... Unless you are willing to spend 200k + gold on each new player they will always be at a large disadvantage.

Wow....mind blown. If those numbers are real...I quit lol

But seriously, are those your EMP numbers or is that what you run with all the time. I know I don't know everything but I thought I new what was possible lol that just seems impossible.

Cody

Valen_Byte wrote: »

I still play on BWB. I watched as CP slowly started to creep in. I watched as lowbies and seasoned players alike ran for the hills.

CP is a problem but they are removing them fro BwB so Im good with that. I have around 300 cp...and I would gladly give them all up to have balance restored.

As a seasoned player, I do my best to help new player. I run a group that is geared toward newbz. We have a lot of fun. People learn stuff, and grow as players.

That is where our focus should be as vet players in the non-vet campaign. Help the new players. Make BwB a place that is fun.

One thing I have noticed is the big guilds in BwB, dont have much patients with new players. Give them a break...take them under your wing. So that this game will live!!!

"dont have patience" is an understatement. I have come close to cussing some of these elitist fools out with the way they treat everyone.

IxSTALKERxI

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Wow....mind blown. If those numbers are real...I quit lol

But seriously, are those your EMP numbers or is that what you run with all the time. I know I don't know everything but I thought I new what was possible lol that just seems impossible.

Those stats are both as emperor. Champion points do add a percentage to your stats, but people need to remember the majority of your stats comes from the gear. Gear is very important in bwb with the new battle-lvling. Removing champion points won't stop people from stacking 4000 weapon damage and killing people with 2 wrecking blows.

Tankqull

Alcast wrote: »

PhatGrimReaper wrote: »

Tal_72 wrote: »

No, I didn't ask that at all. The post was about taking 25K damage in about 2 seconds from an enemy player. It has to do with the gear-gap and CP-gap new players are experience facing alts of VR players--and when the new players try out PVP for the first time, they just get ROFLstomped. While the alt twinks get their jollies smashing newbies, it's bad for the overall game.

Gear makes a bigger difference than CP.... trust this

Not if you have 0 cp vs 501 cp

even than when you are running as a freshling in dropped overleveled green stuff while your opponent runs in perfectly fitting purple/gold equip...

Yasha

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Wow....mind blown. If those numbers are real...I quit lol

But seriously, are those your EMP numbers or is that what you run with all the time. I know I don't know everything but I thought I new what was possible lol that just seems impossible.

Those stats are both as emperor. Champion points do add a percentage to your stats, but people need to remember the majority of your stats comes from the gear. Gear is very important in bwb with the new battle-lvling. Removing champion points won't stop people from stacking 4000 weapon damage and killing people with 2 wrecking blows.

What would your health on the Templar be without the emperor buff? I am a bit confused about exactly what buffs the emp gets now because I think they were changed a while ago. Do you still get 100% health buff?