BlackWater Blade damage

Yasha

Docmandu wrote: »

Biggest issue is that BWB isn't welcoming for new players any longer.. and when new players try the PvP and go WTF is this.. we all loose out, since it will kill the future population.

We need new players to have a chance and have fun!

Be it BWB or something else, there has to be a place where somebody with levelling random drops (greens) and 0 CP has a fighting chance and doesn't constantly get rolled by 501 CP gold set piece crafted, gold enchant crafted wannabees.

Fact that they are going to disable CP in BWB is already a good start, but it's not enough imho.

It seemed to be just like this when I first started played BB early last year. Once I understood how the system worked it was great. There was still a power gap in terms of upper tier abilities, top potions/food, some enchants, and bonuses for emperor etc, but it wasn't over the top. I actually bought a friend a copy of the game so we could play BB together since it was so fun.

However, as CP became more prevalent the game started to become cheesy, with some players able to take on whole groups and win. We tried grinding CP, but its just ... boring, so we quit. I find it strange that coming back to the game changes have been made that make the balance in BB substantially worse and unfriendly to the extreme for new players; indeed it seems to have developed into almost the antithesis of a level playing field that would be fun for new players and give veteran players an alternative to the pure gear-based VET campaigns. Why did they do that?

Tal_72

Docmandu wrote: »

Biggest issue is that BWB isn't welcoming for new players any longer.. and when new players try the PvP and go WTF is this.. we all loose out, since it will kill the future population.

It already is. I'm on the verge of quitting--and I really like the game.

Valen_Byte

I still play on BWB. I watched as CP slowly started to creep in. I watched as lowbies and seasoned players alike ran for the hills.

CP is a problem but they are removing them fro BwB so Im good with that. I have around 300 cp...and I would gladly give them all up to have balance restored.

As a seasoned player, I do my best to help new player. I run a group that is geared toward newbz. We have a lot of fun. People learn stuff, and grow as players.

That is where our focus should be as vet players in the non-vet campaign. Help the new players. Make BwB a place that is fun.

One thing I have noticed is the big guilds in BwB, dont have much patients with new players. Give them a break...take them under your wing. So that this game will live!!!

cschwingeb14_ESO

The scaling for items in BWB is always relative to your level. If you are L34 and you are using a L34 purple sword, it will have the same stats as a V16 people sword. Once you hit L35, it will have stats equal to a V15 purple sword. At L36, that sword will have the stats of a V14 sword. Etc etc

This is good in some ways, as gold items from 2 levels ago become worse than an even-level purple.

Enchantments, food/drink and potions always scale to VR16

Loss of CP in BWB will help even the playing field, but not nearly enough to make it noob friendly. There are too many other ways to "twink"

Angus

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Loss of CP in BWB will help even the playing field, but not nearly enough to make it noob friendly. There are too many other ways to "twink"

On top of the "twinking" (which can't be stopped), the guy who grinded 501CP is, without doubt, going to be more skilled than the average no-cp, under-geared non-vet player unfamiliar with their class or other classes who just started playing a few weeks ago.

It was never a fair contest in the first place, even if you removed every possible buff differentiating players.

josh.lackey_ESO

raasdal wrote: »

BB is not broken. It is now the way it should have been from the beginning.

It's broken. Vet should've been changed to work like the old BwB did. Normalized stats where gear doesn't matter. Skill vs skill rather than who has the most CP or who can twink their gear the hardest.

raasdal wrote: »

BB is not broken. It is now the way it should have been from the beginning.

You just need to realize that everyone is now V15, and LEARN how the scaling works. As someone mentioned, you NEED to have level accurate gear. So surprise surprise - you can no longer run around naked and kill people. That was the most stupid thing ever.

NOW, my lvl. 38 Sorc WILL be hitting you with 10k frags, and one-shot combo you with Curse, Frag, Wrath. Why ? Because i am better geared than you.

For the OP;

Every 2 levels (20/22/24/26) you need to craft all new Purple gear. I even make Gold weapons sometimes. The bonus from Set Items will decrease drastically as your level difference grows. Enchantments do however not change for some reason. At least not at the same rate.

I'd rather everyone have normalized stats like before, no CP. Then it comes down to your build and your skill. I'd rather win because I'm better than you, not because I crafted better gear than you. It's just a silly to have a "scaling" system when the end result is still people with significantly different power levels. BwB took a step backwards into twinkdom and min-maxing, and away from just having to be good at the game.

Valen_Byte

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

BB is not broken. It is now the way it should have been from the beginning.

It's broken. Vet should've been changed to work like the old BwB did. Normalized stats where gear doesn't matter. Skill vs skill rather than who has the most CP or who can twink their gear the hardest.

raasdal wrote: »

BB is not broken. It is now the way it should have been from the beginning.

You just need to realize that everyone is now V15, and LEARN how the scaling works. As someone mentioned, you NEED to have level accurate gear. So surprise surprise - you can no longer run around naked and kill people. That was the most stupid thing ever.

NOW, my lvl. 38 Sorc WILL be hitting you with 10k frags, and one-shot combo you with Curse, Frag, Wrath. Why ? Because i am better geared than you.

For the OP;

Every 2 levels (20/22/24/26) you need to craft all new Purple gear. I even make Gold weapons sometimes. The bonus from Set Items will decrease drastically as your level difference grows. Enchantments do however not change for some reason. At least not at the same rate.

I'd rather everyone have normalized stats like before, no CP. Then it comes down to your build and your skill. I'd rather win because I'm better than you, not because I crafted better gear than you. It's just a silly to have a "scaling" system when the end result is still people with significantly different power levels. BwB took a step backwards into twinkdom and min-maxing, and away from just having to be good at the game.

I agree with everything you said. Bwb was perfect before CP and scaling. Removal of CP is a start, but not enough.

PUT BWB BACK TO ITS ORIGINAL GLORY ZO$!!!

Angus

Drakilian wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

EP hasn't started doing it yet but I assume Loveden and the noquars won't soon have a choice but to start, since things aren't exactly looking good for them.

Noquars don't run in those filthy zergballs.

Alucardo

Valen_Byte wrote: »

I agree with everything you said. Bwb was perfect before CP and scaling. Removal of CP is a start, but not enough.

PUT BWB BACK TO ITS ORIGINAL GLORY ZO$!!!

The fights prior to the update were too long and drawn out, but some specific people are reaching *** amounts of damage at the moment, which I can agree on.
Add some strict softcaps on non-vet instead. ZOS need to keep in mind it's a campaign for beginners, and these guys aren't going to have access to the best gear. In fact I was helping a few out around Cyrodiil and the magicka sorc was wearing green heavy armour he dropped prior to entering. He ain't going to have a chance against someone with 3.5k weapon damage and insane resists.

mcurley

Once they remove CP from BwB things will be a lot more even across the board.

Crafting the right gear sets is important but the idea of needing purple gear made every 2 levels to stay relevant is absolutely unfounded.

Blue gear is plenty viable. I've been making blue gear every 6 levels and I've never faced someone 1v1 who I thought I had no chance of beating (aside from an Emperor but that's how it should be)... even when my gear was 5 levels behind me.

The normalized stats were fine while they lasted but they gimped build diversity so much that every fight was completely predictable after playing for a while. Not to mention how absurd it was that armor meant nothing except for the 5pc set bonuses, some traits, and a very limited amount of <5pc set bonuses.

BwB is more fun now by at least an order of magnitude (in my opinion) and I loved BwB before the change. If you are struggling you might want to look into your build or how you are executing it.

josh.lackey_ESO

mcurley wrote: »

BwB is more fun now by at least an order of magnitude (in my opinion) and I loved BwB before the change. If you are struggling you might want to look into your build or how you are executing it.

I don't understand this. If you like the current BwB, why haven't you been playing in vet all along? BwB used to be an option for a different kind of gameplay that a lot of us liked. Now it's just a mini-vet. It's like ZOS took something unique and cherished, doo-doo'd all over it, and now it's the same crap as vet. Yet people are saying they love it now? I don't get it at all. If you like the current BwB, you never should have been in BwB to start with! You should've been in vet!

I disagree on all points. Normalized stats ADDED build diversity -- you could actually dodge as magicka or use spells as stamina. You could actually do WAY more interesting stuff than you can now. Hybrid builds were actually viable. The way armor worked before was not stupid -- you used it for the passives instead of the stats. It was so much more balanced when everyone was on the same playing field. Being able to run around naked not get rekt was a testament to how balanced and skill-based BwB used to be, and if you can't see that, you don't understand what it means to be balanced. Now it's just a twink-fest to see who can cheese the hardest. I liked that I could have a Master Weapon campaign reward, a true badge of honor, and I could actually use for more than a day or two without out-leveling it.

Purple gear (especially weapons) at your level DOES matter, check your tooltips. When they remove CP, things will get WORSE because it will then be EXCLUSIVELY about gear. The next "meta" for BwB, which has already begun, will be which classes have synergistic dropped sets available, and at what levels. People will make MORE generic builds so they can reuse the same gear they had before. I know some people who already have Willpower/Agility sets for every 5 levels!

I am a 9-trait crafter, and I feel like I spend more time making non-vet gear than I actually get to spend in non-vet PvP these days. And let me tell you, if you don't craft or have a crafter that loves you, then you are gonna get doo-doo'd on pretty hard in BwB right now. It will only get worse after CP removal. I hate to say it, but CP is actually helping to offset the imbalance right now. And I am not talking about actual newbies who don't have CP -- they don't know how to play anyway and are guaranteed to get rekt no matter what. BwB is not really for them, and it hasn't been for a long time. It's been for refugees from Lagzura and the zergball joke vet PvP is.

The catchup mechanic, CP cap, and new battle level have invalidated the old argument that CP is bad for BwB. Right now CP is the only thing making it at all balanced. You think the one skill spam is bad now, just wait until gear is the only factor that matters. It will only get worse.

Docmandu

mcurley wrote: »

Once they remove CP from BwB things will be a lot more even across the board.

Crafting the right gear sets is important but the idea of needing purple gear made every 2 levels to stay relevant is absolutely unfounded.

Blue gear is plenty viable. I've been making blue gear every 6 levels and I've never faced someone 1v1 who I thought I had no chance of beating (aside from an Emperor but that's how it should be)... even when my gear was 5 levels behind me.

The normalized stats were fine while they lasted but they gimped build diversity so much that every fight was completely predictable after playing for a while. Not to mention how absurd it was that armor meant nothing except for the 5pc set bonuses, some traits, and a very limited amount of <5pc set bonuses.

BwB is more fun now by at least an order of magnitude (in my opinion) and I loved BwB before the change. If you are struggling you might want to look into your build or how you are executing it.

You are forgetting the fact that a new player most likely can't craft most of the gear sets (research), probably comes in BWB with drops from PvE, where you will never get a gearset together before it's totally outlevelled (what's up with that ZOS? Why the level 20 gearsets that require 40+ days of grinding to get them?).. so they have to depend on other players to craft them the gear or buy some gearsets.. but they won't have as much cash as seasoned players.

So unless they find friendly crafters that like to help out new players, they won't be getting decent gear to compete.. and certainly won't get crafted gear every 2-3 levels.

Maybe PvE should drop more set pieces at lower levels and/or lower level AP gear should be really cheap AP wise.. to help out the new player...

new player that sticks around = win!

Docmandu

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @Wrobel any chance of making BWB or something else, new player friendly again. We need new meat to stick around an not give up on PvP altogether due to how the balance tips towards the seasoned player in BWB atm.

Yasha

I just got hit with a 15K wrecking blow in BwB after upgrading my gear to green/blue at my level. Not much fun to be honest.

Waffennacht

First off, wtf is the point of a PvP where level, gear, CP and even resource dedication has no effect?? Sounds like Mortal Kombat to me!

I completely agree that CP should no be in non vet. I mean CP is what makes a vet a vet... so dur.

But make resources unimportant so a pure magicka build can hit for 10k WB? Roll dodge all day with no build specificity? Come on... now that's cheese.

QuebraRegra

Yasha wrote: »

TDLR: I am hitting for about 2,500 with my major attacks/finishers, but I am getting hit by 11K wrecking blows, etc. BB is meant to be an equalized/normalized pvp area, so why is there such a huge difference in power?

Its like there are two types of players in BB- one type is totally OP can tank a whole group of weak (normal) toons' focus fire and 100-0 players in one rotation. The other pokes away with 250 damage light attacks and 1,000 damage abilities and melts instantly when an OP toon hits them. I can understand this happening in the Vet campaigns where gear and levels are meant to provide a difference, but why is this happening in BB? It's mind boggling.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt...


Can anyone explain why CPs should have any bearing whatsoever in a non-vet campaign? YET THEY DO. Still waiting for the NO CP campaigns promised by ZOS almost a year ago now.

Beyond that, WB has been broke for a long time now, but it's the fav one-button-win, so it will go unaddressed.

QuebraRegra

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

BB is not broken. It is now the way it should have been from the beginning.

It's broken. Vet should've been changed to work like the old BwB did. Normalized stats where gear doesn't matter. Skill vs skill rather than who has the most CP or who can twink their gear the hardest.

raasdal wrote: »

BB is not broken. It is now the way it should have been from the beginning.

You just need to realize that everyone is now V15, and LEARN how the scaling works. As someone mentioned, you NEED to have level accurate gear. So surprise surprise - you can no longer run around naked and kill people. That was the most stupid thing ever.

NOW, my lvl. 38 Sorc WILL be hitting you with 10k frags, and one-shot combo you with Curse, Frag, Wrath. Why ? Because i am better geared than you.

For the OP;

Every 2 levels (20/22/24/26) you need to craft all new Purple gear. I even make Gold weapons sometimes. The bonus from Set Items will decrease drastically as your level difference grows. Enchantments do however not change for some reason. At least not at the same rate.

I'd rather everyone have normalized stats like before, no CP. Then it comes down to your build and your skill. I'd rather win because I'm better than you, not because I crafted better gear than you. It's just a silly to have a "scaling" system when the end result is still people with significantly different power levels. BwB took a step backwards into twinkdom and min-maxing, and away from just having to be good at the game.

I agree with this sooo much. It's always a better/more interesting fight when it comes down to a test of skill rather than a bag of tricks.

That said, I think there has to be a place for the "twinkies" and CP grinders, and it sure as Oblivion isn't in the NON-VET campaigns. It's every kidz dream now to rule the NON-VETs with OP CP, and "lite" gear. To worsen the problem, ZOS killed many of the NON-VET campaigns on the consoles, leaving on BWB, which almost always locked with populations of epeens only there in an attempt to rule over the noobz with their "leet" gear and CP prowess.

Go ahead, run it into the ground... sooner or later you'll find it's a lonely place as people move on.

Waffennacht

I am better than you cause I put the time and effort to create my gear.

It's stupid as insert expletive here. It's an MMO, of course there will be gear.

Unless you are lvl 50 and only face other level 50s that have all skills unlocked and maxed.

Does that mean my 2H wrecking blow can be paired with my ward to have both maximized? Or a NB that can cloak like a mag but hit with ambush as if stamina?

The combinations of moves NOT determined by stats is the most ridiculously Over Powered idea ever.

mcurley

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

mcurley wrote: »

BwB is more fun now by at least an order of magnitude (in my opinion) and I loved BwB before the change. If you are struggling you might want to look into your build or how you are executing it.

I don't understand this. If you like the current BwB, why haven't you been playing in vet all along? BwB used to be an option for a different kind of gameplay that a lot of us liked. Now it's just a mini-vet. It's like ZOS took something unique and cherished, doo-doo'd all over it, and now it's the same crap as vet. Yet people are saying they love it now? I don't get it at all. If you like the current BwB, you never should have been in BwB to start with! You should've been in vet!

I disagree on all points. Normalized stats ADDED build diversity -- you could actually dodge as magicka or use spells as stamina. You could actually do WAY more interesting stuff than you can now. Hybrid builds were actually viable. The way armor worked before was not stupid -- you used it for the passives instead of the stats. It was so much more balanced when everyone was on the same playing field. Being able to run around naked not get rekt was a testament to how balanced and skill-based BwB used to be, and if you can't see that, you don't understand what it means to be balanced. Now it's just a twink-fest to see who can cheese the hardest. I liked that I could have a Master Weapon campaign reward, a true badge of honor, and I could actually use for more than a day or two without out-leveling it.

Purple gear (especially weapons) at your level DOES matter, check your tooltips. When they remove CP, things will get WORSE because it will then be EXCLUSIVELY about gear. The next "meta" for BwB, which has already begun, will be which classes have synergistic dropped sets available, and at what levels. People will make MORE generic builds so they can reuse the same gear they had before. I know some people who already have Willpower/Agility sets for every 5 levels!

I am a 9-trait crafter, and I feel like I spend more time making non-vet gear than I actually get to spend in non-vet PvP these days. And let me tell you, if you don't craft or have a crafter that loves you, then you are gonna get doo-doo'd on pretty hard in BwB right now. It will only get worse after CP removal. I hate to say it, but CP is actually helping to offset the imbalance right now. And I am not talking about actual newbies who don't have CP -- they don't know how to play anyway and are guaranteed to get rekt no matter what. BwB is not really for them, and it hasn't been for a long time. It's been for refugees from Lagzura and the zergball joke vet PvP is.

The catchup mechanic, CP cap, and new battle level have invalidated the old argument that CP is bad for BwB. Right now CP is the only thing making it at all balanced. You think the one skill spam is bad now, just wait until gear is the only factor that matters. It will only get worse.

I've been playing in non-vet because I don't have the time to dedicate to this game to make a hero viable in vet-pvp... maybe now that the Battle Leveling has changed I would enjoy it more but I haven't left BwB since the update because of nostalgia reasons.

I'm sorry that you disagree with my points... I'm pretty sure we've had differing opinions on this issue for some time now.

What I know is that I did quite well before the change and I've been doing equally well since it was implemented. I hear people bitching and moaning about how they are getting wrecked all over the place in BwB and I just do not understand this at all.... maybe my heros have hidden bonus stats that I'm unaware of? Doubtful.

I know the tooltip for purple gear is obviously better but my responses are coming from experience playing... not from looking at someone with higher stats and complaining about it. I've played with/against players with all ranges of gear quality and I promise you that skill is at least one order of magnitude more important than having a perfect gear-set. If you suck in white gear you will suck in purple gear too, there is no way around that.

Maybe the old Battle Leveling catered more to a completely new player (someone who has been playing less than 2mo) but in my opinion (key phrase here) the new Battle Leveling system is more logical, helps to introduce you to more aspects of the game, and will better prepare you for when you are no longer in BwB.

Most_Awesome

Drakilian wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

it is rather simple you have some highly equiped twinks slotting gold equip on every slot equal to their lvl and you have newbees running around in greengear 5-10 lvl below their char lvl...

I personally don't go up to gold, but I do know some people who are rich enough and do (millionaires through the similarly unfair guild trading system and IC farming).

I purple out all my stuff, because elegant lining is cheap and purple armor is strong. I'd gladly disable my champ points ( I have 219, not impressive in vet I know but anything more than 0 is too much in non-vet) and go down to greens or whites but the problem there is that then I'll just get relentlessly *** by all the other twinks, and there are A LOT of twinks in non-vet. You'll know then because about half the players you fight will be pushovers that you mow down like it's nothing, and the other half will either be challenging or they'll *** you up because they've got even more champ points/better enchants and jewelry.

Even in the duelling meet ups (all duellers are total twinks, because frankly, only the twinks do well enough in the duels to like them), there are obvious imbalances in champ points and gear.

Your options in non-vet as a vet player who doesn't want to play in lagzura's are basically be a part of the problem, or get roflstomped by others who are.

Even the non-lag part of BwB has been slowly disappearing since that group of vet *** high-end twinks from DC formed Vox Mortem and started using Vet tactics in BwB to roflstomp the competition. Yesterday I was running with an AD group that started using the same tactics because they had no other way of countering the zergball than with their own zergball. It worked too, rolled down the DC ball group as easy as can be.

EP hasn't started doing it yet but I assume Loveden and the noquars won't soon have a choice but to start, since things aren't exactly looking good for them.

This is BwB EU spot on lol

Yasha

Waffennacht wrote: »

I am better than you cause I put the time and effort to create my gear.

It's stupid as insert expletive here. It's an MMO, of course there will be gear.

Unless you are lvl 50 and only face other level 50s that have all skills unlocked and maxed.

Does that mean my 2H wrecking blow can be paired with my ward to have both maximized? Or a NB that can cloak like a mag but hit with ambush as if stamina?

The combinations of moves NOT determined by stats is the most ridiculously Over Powered idea ever.

Um, but that's not how it worked in the previous version of BwB so I don't know what you are on about.

There was no one hitting me with 15K wrecking blows, and I was doing basically the same damage as other players. Now it is just completely unbalanced and I have to spend heaps of money to constantly upgrade my gear.

One good thing about the new system is that it is more in line with the rules of the Vet system (in terms of how gear works together with stats) so it provides better understanding of the game mechanics, but it obviously needs a lot of tweaks to make it more workable.

Tal_72

B&S tomorrow.

PhatGrimReaper

Invest in level appropriate Willpower/Agility & Purple gear

....... you're welcome

Tal_72

PhatGrimReaper wrote: »

Invest in level appropriate Willpower/Agility & Purple gear

....... you're welcome

It is absurd you're telling me to buy Purple gear while I'm leveling to play in the below lvl 50 campaign. I'd hazard to guess most people will just quit.

Do you even know what this thread is about? Refer to post 23 and most other posts in this thread.

Alucardo

Tal_72 wrote: »

PhatGrimReaper wrote: »

Invest in level appropriate Willpower/Agility & Purple gear

....... you're welcome

It is absurd you're telling me to buy Purple gear while I'm leveling to play in the below lvl 50 campaign. I'd hazard to guess most people will just quit.

Do you even know what this thread is about? Refer to post 23 and most other posts in this thread.

Yeah, what they suggested is just overboard. I'd recommend blue gear and purple weapons at the very least though.
You can also get away with crafting armour every 4-6 levels (6 being the absolute maximum!), but I'd upgrade my weapons every 2 levels. The DPS difference is just too noticeable to leave it to chance.

Tal_72

I have a few pieces of purple (including weapon), some blue, some green. I'm not quite sure how adding a few more purple or blue to that is going to make the above Wrecking Blow damage less? I think that's set gear and/or CPs at work. Just illustrating the new player experience, and why retaining people might be a challenge when this is their first Cyrodiil experience.

Yasha

Its funny, light attacks by some players hit me for about 3.5k- that's more than most of my major attacks do.

PhatGrimReaper

Alucardo wrote: »

Tal_72 wrote: »

PhatGrimReaper wrote: »

Invest in level appropriate Willpower/Agility & Purple gear

....... you're welcome

It is absurd you're telling me to buy Purple gear while I'm leveling to play in the below lvl 50 campaign. I'd hazard to guess most people will just quit.

Do you even know what this thread is about? Refer to post 23 and most other posts in this thread.

Yeah, what they suggested is just overboard. I'd recommend blue gear and purple weapons at the very least though.
You can also get away with crafting armour every 4-6 levels (6 being the absolute maximum!), but I'd upgrade my weapons every 2 levels. The DPS difference is just too noticeable to leave it to chance.

Recommend whatever you like, but someone asked why their damage was so low compared to others, I gave them the answer.

Tal_72

No, I didn't ask that at all. The post was about taking 25K damage in about 2 seconds from an enemy player. It has to do with the gear-gap and CP-gap new players are experience facing alts of VR players--and when the new players try out PVP for the first time, they just get ROFLstomped. While the alt twinks get their jollies smashing newbies, it's bad for the overall game.

PhatGrimReaper

Tal_72 wrote: »

No, I didn't ask that at all. The post was about taking 25K damage in about 2 seconds from an enemy player. It has to do with the gear-gap and CP-gap new players are experience facing alts of VR players--and when the new players try out PVP for the first time, they just get ROFLstomped. While the alt twinks get their jollies smashing newbies, it's bad for the overall game.

Gear makes a bigger difference than CP.... trust this