Should Sorc shields scale of health?

zornyan

Teargrants wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

Yeah your 49 k is seriously close to the guy that has 65k that recently posted in the sorc section.

Oh sorry he's 64k with dual stat food.

14K damage is alot to keep constantly negated, not to mention it procs your single target dps skill that hits like a truck and cost next to nothing and knocks down.

Bolt escape seems to work really well for the sorcs I see spamming it like it's going out of fashion.

Fought a sorc again yesterday, his frags took at least 40%+ of my hp each hit, (26K total hp) and he was using bolt escape every possible second he could.

His rotation was bolt escape through, frags, bolt escape, frags, bolt escape, frags, ward, repeat.

After draining my 40k magicka on heals, and my attacks not even being able to bring his shields down, a couple friends arrived, he just bolt escaped away, counted 3 times before he diseppeared off.

Damm that skill must be expensive...

1. Gid gud.
2. You cannot use bolt escape every other GCD, w/in 5-7 casts you will go from full to OOM, and that's not even counting the skills you claim being cast in between each.
3. If 3 bolt escapes in a row is all it takes to escape your friends, you friends have a serious case of needing to git gud.

Hmm let's see, options when sorc spams bolt escspe.

Chase after him by sprinting (cause other classes like DK and temp have awesome mobility yeah) when finally getting to range of a gap closer, see him bolt escape again...and again..or just lay down mines and bolt escape several more times.

I really don't care what your theory says, I've seen a sorc use bolt escape over 7 times in a row, after being in an extended fight for 3 or 4 minutes with 2 other players.

zornyan

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

Yeah your 49 k is seriously close to the guy that has 65k that recently posted in the sorc section.

Oh sorry he's 64k with dual stat food.

14K damage is alot to keep constantly negated, not to mention it procs your single target dps skill that hits like a truck and cost next to nothing and knocks down.

Bolt escape seems to work really well for the sorcs I see spamming it like it's going out of fashion.

Fought a sorc again yesterday, his frags took at least 40%+ of my hp each hit, (26K total hp) and he was using bolt escape every possible second he could.

His rotation was bolt escape through, frags, bolt escape, frags, bolt escape, frags, ward, repeat.

After draining my 40k magicka on heals, and my attacks not even being able to bring his shields down, a couple friends arrived, he just bolt escaped away, counted 3 times before he diseppeared off.

Damm that skill must be expensive...

The guy with 65k was using a build that he said wouldn't work in PVP and was just to see how high he could get his magic.

Bolt Escape has an increasing 50% cost each time you use it again within 4 seconds. If you're able to wait out the 4 second period, then you can use it like he was, of course.

I'm just wondering why you aren't blocking these frags or streaks, using immovable pots, dodging, using LOS, etc. It really sounds like most of your problem with sorcs is not having the right gear and skills slotted and the rest is down to skill/experience.

And VetMSA is not simple on a sorc. I keep hearing that being parroted, but it simply not true. The people that have cleared it multiple times are spending the time to learn it.

That's only use single stat food, he said he just uses dual stat in pvp and loses 1k off of that.

He was using it far more than every 3 seconds , exactly how many times do you think a Magicka build can block and roll dodge? Even with my imperial racials and using sword and board and tri stat food that's only a few break free / roll dodges.

I was keeping up the pressure as much as possible, but just how great do you think dark flare is against a sorc? Jabs does absolutely nothing, and my only other options are javelin, or just healing myself.

dodgehopper_ESO

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

I can't believe this thread is still going. I'm also a little surprised how hostile it had gotten. I did pick up a few things that were said, and just thought I'd comment on them. Bolt Escape is a great skill, I love both morphs honestly. One morph is one of my favorite cc's in the game, and the other morph is a really good cc that also can be used to suck up a magical projectile. BE/Streak is no joke, and Sorcs have some really great cc. I know because I've used it myself plenty of times. I'm not entirely happy with the way they've nerfed that skill either, but that falls back into my complaints about soft cap removal and so forth which I won't reiterate here. The main thing is that they need to deal with their power creep without wrecking classes/powers. The game actually isn't fundamentally the same game as it was at release anymore, and only resembles it graphically.

On the topic of Templars I think some people made some good points. I've always felt they made Restoring Light too much about healing, and it should have been more like the Earthen Heart or Siphoning skill lines, obviously with its own flair. Templar has a clunky quality about it and it always has, but it also has some of the most beautiful animations as well. They need to bring the classes CC back (blinding flashes) as well as make Blazing Shield do what it is intended to do (I recommend they make the reflect damage work like Spike armor or even Boundless storm, which by the way would be a lot like the Dawnguard spell from Skyrim that it was obviously copied from stylistically).

Ultimately, whatever balances they make to the game, I want to see them make all 4 roles (Tank, Heal, Mag DPS, Wpn DPS) viable for all 4 classes. It is my suspicion that we are going to see some fundamentally huge changes to all the classes if/when spellcrafting comes out, which is probably why they're waiting to do too much. That's just my guess though. The reason I voted yes, by the way, is that I believe they need to standardize a lot of the abilities so that they make sense particularly in a game that is going to have spellcrafting. If they can't standardize powers I don't see how they'll ever get balance in this game. If that means Sorc needs a more reliable self heal, so be it. I'd add that DK could probably stand to have its self heal improved a touch as well.

FriedEggSandwich

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

Yeah your 49 k is seriously close to the guy that has 65k that recently posted in the sorc section.

Oh sorry he's 64k with dual stat food.

14K damage is alot to keep constantly negated, not to mention it procs your single target dps skill that hits like a truck and cost next to nothing and knocks down.

Bolt escape seems to work really well for the sorcs I see spamming it like it's going out of fashion.

Fought a sorc again yesterday, his frags took at least 40%+ of my hp each hit, (26K total hp) and he was using bolt escape every possible second he could.

His rotation was bolt escape through, frags, bolt escape, frags, bolt escape, frags, ward, repeat.

After draining my 40k magicka on heals, and my attacks not even being able to bring his shields down, a couple friends arrived, he just bolt escaped away, counted 3 times before he diseppeared off.

Damm that skill must be expensive...

The guy with 65k was using a build that he said wouldn't work in PVP and was just to see how high he could get his magic.

Bolt Escape has an increasing 50% cost each time you use it again within 4 seconds. If you're able to wait out the 4 second period, then you can use it like he was, of course.

I'm just wondering why you aren't blocking these frags or streaks, using immovable pots, dodging, using LOS, etc. It really sounds like most of your problem with sorcs is not having the right gear and skills slotted and the rest is down to skill/experience.

And VetMSA is not simple on a sorc. I keep hearing that being parroted, but it simply not true. The people that have cleared it multiple times are spending the time to learn it.

That's only use single stat food, he said he just uses dual stat in pvp and loses 1k off of that.

He was using it far more than every 3 seconds , exactly how many times do you think a Magicka build can block and roll dodge? Even with my imperial racials and using sword and board and tri stat food that's only a few break free / roll dodges.

I was keeping up the pressure as much as possible, but just how great do you think dark flare is against a sorc? Jabs does absolutely nothing, and my only other options are javelin, or just healing myself.

I wouldn't bother chasing sorcs that run, use the time to regen stats yourself and re-buff. This is my strat when facing a NB that cloaks away when I'm doing damage to them; I don't chase or detect pot, I just wait for them to come back or go about my business.

If they come at you throw a javelin/spear at them, eclipse them and purify yourself every few seconds. The 75 ultimate insta-cast javelin swing is pretty good burst imo, or ice comet or soul assault work well if the sorc is low on resources. Most sorcs can't purge, reflect or cloak incoming damage. Pop an immovability pot to prevent frag knockdown and streak stuns. Radiant destruction is a great ranged execute and dark flare will reduce the effectiveness of their heals. You can't out-dps a geared sorc as a mageplar but you can out-utility them and keep the pressure on with good ranged cc and some burst while purging their curse. Let them be offensive and then catch them off guard. Stacking cp into hardy and elemental defender will help you deal with incoming sorc damage.

Your biggest issue as a mageplar facing a sorc is harness stacked on hardened, but any sorc doing this to a templar is a *** imo.

I know several mageplars that have regularly made emp on the main 30 day campaign EU. I'm no fanboy and don't normally reference twitch streamers or youtubers, but sypher is currently playing a non-vet stemplar in a vet campaign and wrecking v16s. OK so that's stamina templar, but many of the class skills he uses to survive are available to magicka templars too. http://www.twitch.tv/sypherpk/v/25990615

Cinnamon_Spider

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

Yeah your 49 k is seriously close to the guy that has 65k that recently posted in the sorc section.

Oh sorry he's 64k with dual stat food.

14K damage is alot to keep constantly negated, not to mention it procs your single target dps skill that hits like a truck and cost next to nothing and knocks down.

Bolt escape seems to work really well for the sorcs I see spamming it like it's going out of fashion.

Fought a sorc again yesterday, his frags took at least 40%+ of my hp each hit, (26K total hp) and he was using bolt escape every possible second he could.

His rotation was bolt escape through, frags, bolt escape, frags, bolt escape, frags, ward, repeat.

After draining my 40k magicka on heals, and my attacks not even being able to bring his shields down, a couple friends arrived, he just bolt escaped away, counted 3 times before he diseppeared off.

Damm that skill must be expensive...

The guy with 65k was using a build that he said wouldn't work in PVP and was just to see how high he could get his magic.

Bolt Escape has an increasing 50% cost each time you use it again within 4 seconds. If you're able to wait out the 4 second period, then you can use it like he was, of course.

I'm just wondering why you aren't blocking these frags or streaks, using immovable pots, dodging, using LOS, etc. It really sounds like most of your problem with sorcs is not having the right gear and skills slotted and the rest is down to skill/experience.

And VetMSA is not simple on a sorc. I keep hearing that being parroted, but it simply not true. The people that have cleared it multiple times are spending the time to learn it.

That's only use single stat food, he said he just uses dual stat in pvp and loses 1k off of that.

He was using it far more than every 3 seconds , exactly how many times do you think a Magicka build can block and roll dodge? Even with my imperial racials and using sword and board and tri stat food that's only a few break free / roll dodges.

I was keeping up the pressure as much as possible, but just how great do you think dark flare is against a sorc? Jabs does absolutely nothing, and my only other options are javelin, or just healing myself.

You might want to look into using harness or dampen magic yourself. Blue magic/stam drinks, so you can dodge and block more often. Some good skills would be defensive stance or eclipse. Repentance would increase your regen and you can refill your stam if fighting someone with engine guardian, or in any situation with dead npcs and players. Purifying ritual is really good right now. I actually took healing ward off in place of this.

You have to be open to trying something new if what you're doing isn't working. And don't write off these skills as useless, because they're not.

Teargrants

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

Yeah your 49 k is seriously close to the guy that has 65k that recently posted in the sorc section.

Oh sorry he's 64k with dual stat food.

14K damage is alot to keep constantly negated, not to mention it procs your single target dps skill that hits like a truck and cost next to nothing and knocks down.

Bolt escape seems to work really well for the sorcs I see spamming it like it's going out of fashion.

Fought a sorc again yesterday, his frags took at least 40%+ of my hp each hit, (26K total hp) and he was using bolt escape every possible second he could.

His rotation was bolt escape through, frags, bolt escape, frags, bolt escape, frags, ward, repeat.

After draining my 40k magicka on heals, and my attacks not even being able to bring his shields down, a couple friends arrived, he just bolt escaped away, counted 3 times before he diseppeared off.

Damm that skill must be expensive...

1. Gid gud.
2. You cannot use bolt escape every other GCD, w/in 5-7 casts you will go from full to OOM, and that's not even counting the skills you claim being cast in between each.
3. If 3 bolt escapes in a row is all it takes to escape your friends, you friends have a serious case of needing to git gud.

Hmm let's see, options when sorc spams bolt escspe.

Chase after him by sprinting (cause other classes like DK and temp have awesome mobility yeah) when finally getting to range of a gap closer, see him bolt escape again...and again..or just lay down mines and bolt escape several more times.

I really don't care what your theory says, I've seen a sorc use bolt escape over 7 times in a row, after being in an extended fight for 3 or 4 minutes with 2 other players.

I have played sorc and almost exclusively pvp'd on it for 2 years now, if you don't wish to listen to me when I explain the limitations of the class and what counters the class, then why are you here?

DKs and Templars both have class gap closers, Chains and Toppling Charge. It can be difficult for magicka builds to keep up if the sorc gets 2 blinks off w/ the aid of LOS, but against a stam build that is actually built for solo/small scale combat, it is literally impossible for a sorc to escape by "spamming bolt escape" as you would put it.

Stam builds could already sprint w/ speed buffs and indefinitely keep up w/ sorcs in 1.6. And of course, now bolt escape has an infinitely stacking cost increase.

Citing a sorc bolt escape 7 times in a row after a 4 min fight? With 7/7 light armor, 37k magicka gets you 7 bolt escapes from ing100%, 8 bolt escapes if you use 3 reduce magicka cost enchants. At that point the 8th bolt escape costs 11.5k, or 9.9k for the 9th one w/ 3 cost reduction enchants.

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

Derra

No...

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Tankqull

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

but the problem here is any magica class is thx to shield stacking impossible to be killed by other magica classes if they do not make major mistakes. and the keywords here are harness magica = infinite magica, and healing ward = even with the pvp reduction up to a 25k shield on every magica class[explicitly for you zorny even on my healing temp i have a 23,2k ward ally shield in cyrodiil if used at the proper moment so it is not a sorc only issue - and it has absolutly nothing to do with sorc shields).

WreckfulAbandon

No...

Tankqull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

but the problem here is any magica class is thx to shield stacking impossible to be killed by other magica classes if they do not make major mistakes. and the keywords here are harness magica = infinite magica, and healing ward = even with the pvp reduction up to a 25k shield on every magica class[explicitly for you zorny even on my healing temp i have a 23,2k ward ally shield in cyrodiil if used at the proper moment so it is not a sorc only issue - and it has absolutly nothing to do with sorc shields).

I'm glad we've finally identified the problem here, but it is a bit disingenuous to say it's not a "sorc only" issue. In the same way that Hardened Ward alone is not OP and doesn't need to be changed, any non-sorc magic user running harness is not using an impervious shield and is still very killable. It's having 3 magic-scaled shields at their disposal while sacrificing nothing in the way of damage for it that makes sorcs unbalanced vs other magicka builds.

Hardened Ward is fine, and if Healing Ward is nerfed stamina builds will essentially be buffed vs magic builds who need to use healing ward to deal with WB or surprise attack spam. Harness Magicka however does nothing to alter stamina vs magicka balance and simply makes sorcerers (who have access to a magicka-based class shield already) easy-mode vs all other magic builds, while still able to spec for maximum burst damage. This is not balanced and this is the main underlying concern to all the complaining about sorcs imo.

Derra

No...

^ agreed but also healing ward is still a tad too powerful. I might actually be in favor of making healing ward only scale to 200% strengh increase the initial heal by up to 100% too and make the shield part not refreshable.

Teargrants

No...

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

Waseem

No...

Stupid poll... If you arenoob or noobblade that can't kill shielded sorc its your issue.. Go wear shieldbreaker set or use elemental drain or fear sorcerer to drain the low stamina or learn to dodge crystal frag or use tanky sets or use -% move speed skills\curses or quit the game

k2blader

No...

Waseem wrote: »

Stupid poll... If you arenoob or noobblade that can't kill shielded sorc its your issue.. Go wear shieldbreaker set or use elemental drain or fear sorcerer to drain the low stamina or learn to dodge crystal frag or use tanky sets or use -% move speed skills\curses or quit the game

Plonked the awesome just cuz. I think what bugs me second-most about this never ending issue is it's stamina builds driving the complaint when stamina builds already have more than enough options vs. sorcs in PvP. While I'm willing to hear out magicka builds' complaints about shield stacking, I think non-sorc classes somehow forget their own class strengths remain in the mix; so you can't just nerf one sorc skill and call things balanced.

Derra

No...

Teargrants wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

It´s nice that you list all these things but you´re completely ignoring what i´ve said. So while everything you state is true it does not contradict my statement...

As i´ve said: Both builds magica based attacking the sorc. I did also not talk about escaping them (you won´t).
A capable player with three shields will not be killed by two magica builds (the only exception being two sorcs that time their burst and get a bit lucky). Every other two magica builds are f*cked. That´s an issue.
You can literally cast three shields run around a tree and lol @ magica builds trying to get you.

Ofc this is due to light armor buff by 50% and health acutally having value now. However it´s only achieveable with three shields on bar period. If you only have two shields you´re going to die.

zornyan

Waseem wrote: »

Stupid poll... If you arenoob or noobblade that can't kill shielded sorc its your issue.. Go wear shieldbreaker set or use elemental drain or fear sorcerer to drain the low stamina or learn to dodge crystal frag or use tanky sets or use -% move speed skills\curses or quit the game

Erm can my magicka builds use shield breaker?

What speed buffs do templars have available without having to be a vampire and be one shot by most builds?

What fear does a templar have?

ToRelax

No...

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

It´s nice that you list all these things but you´re completely ignoring what i´ve said. So while everything you state is true it does not contradict my statement...

As i´ve said: Both builds magica based attacking the sorc. I did also not talk about escaping them (you won´t).
A capable player with three shields will not be killed by two magica builds (the only exception being two sorcs that time their burst and get a bit lucky). Every other two magica builds are f*cked. That´s an issue.
You can literally cast three shields run around a tree and lol @ magica builds trying to get you.

Ofc this is due to light armor buff by 50% and health acutally having value now. However it´s only achieveable with three shields on bar period. If you only have two shields you´re going to die.

It's pretty bad, but you're making it sound worse than it is. Two players can burst down one shieldstacking Sorc with a well timed cc. With a NB it's not even that hard.

edit: still talking about magicka builds ofc

Ezareth

No...

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

It´s nice that you list all these things but you´re completely ignoring what i´ve said. So while everything you state is true it does not contradict my statement...

As i´ve said: Both builds magica based attacking the sorc. I did also not talk about escaping them (you won´t).
A capable player with three shields will not be killed by two magica builds (the only exception being two sorcs that time their burst and get a bit lucky). Every other two magica builds are f*cked. That´s an issue.
You can literally cast three shields run around a tree and lol @ magica builds trying to get you.

Ofc this is due to light armor buff by 50% and health acutally having value now. However it´s only achieveable with three shields on bar period. If you only have two shields you´re going to die.

Unless that Sorc is using Ball of Lightning I can kill them with enough ultimate. My overload base damage at 1 second GCD will run them out of magicka, even if they're using harness.

Any good player playing the run around a tree LOL build is going to last indefinitely. I did this on my nightblade to two very good players for a good 3 minutes. Playing the LoS game is pretty stupid and its a boring way to fight.

Derra

No...

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

It´s nice that you list all these things but you´re completely ignoring what i´ve said. So while everything you state is true it does not contradict my statement...

As i´ve said: Both builds magica based attacking the sorc. I did also not talk about escaping them (you won´t).
A capable player with three shields will not be killed by two magica builds (the only exception being two sorcs that time their burst and get a bit lucky). Every other two magica builds are f*cked. That´s an issue.
You can literally cast three shields run around a tree and lol @ magica builds trying to get you.

Ofc this is due to light armor buff by 50% and health acutally having value now. However it´s only achieveable with three shields on bar period. If you only have two shields you´re going to die.

Unless that Sorc is using Ball of Lightning I can kill them with enough ultimate. My overload base damage at 1 second GCD will run them out of magicka, even if they're using harness.

Any good player playing the run around a tree LOL build is going to last indefinitely. I did this on my nightblade to two very good players for a good 3 minutes. Playing the LoS game is pretty stupid and its a boring way to fight.

I´ve met a couple of sorcs now who dumped 1000 ultimate of overload into me. The only time i died was after a bugged CF cc that i could not break. In every other scenario dodgerolling + shields (+ potions ofc) will guarantee i survive until they´re out of ultimate.
Key to overload is to never move into the sorcs direction or else they´re able to "stack" projectiles due to slow travel speed. If you let that happen you´re toast.

Ezareth

No...

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

It´s nice that you list all these things but you´re completely ignoring what i´ve said. So while everything you state is true it does not contradict my statement...

As i´ve said: Both builds magica based attacking the sorc. I did also not talk about escaping them (you won´t).
A capable player with three shields will not be killed by two magica builds (the only exception being two sorcs that time their burst and get a bit lucky). Every other two magica builds are f*cked. That´s an issue.
You can literally cast three shields run around a tree and lol @ magica builds trying to get you.

Ofc this is due to light armor buff by 50% and health acutally having value now. However it´s only achieveable with three shields on bar period. If you only have two shields you´re going to die.

Unless that Sorc is using Ball of Lightning I can kill them with enough ultimate. My overload base damage at 1 second GCD will run them out of magicka, even if they're using harness.

Any good player playing the run around a tree LOL build is going to last indefinitely. I did this on my nightblade to two very good players for a good 3 minutes. Playing the LoS game is pretty stupid and its a boring way to fight.

I´ve met a couple of sorcs now who dumped 1000 ultimate of overload into me. The only time i died was after a bugged CF cc that i could not break. In every other scenario dodgerolling + shields (+ potions ofc) will guarantee i survive until they´re out of ultimate.
Key to overload is to never move into the sorcs direction or else they´re able to "stack" projectiles due to slow travel speed. If you let that happen you´re toast.

Yeah as long as you're doing nothing but stacking shields and dodge rolling and never attacking you could probably do it since dodge roll is on a seperate GCD than abilities and puts you at a GCD advantage to an overload sorc as long as you are animation cancelling your shield casting with dodge rolls (Which personally I've never come across).

Dodge roll is by far the most effective defense against a Sorc overloading but I've never really fought another effective overload sorc either so perhaps you haven't as well.

Maulkin

No...

Overlol still works very well against anyone (including Sorcs) in an Xv1 scenario. Send the DKs/NBs into melee range to CC the feck out of him, while you sit at the back just tapping LMB every second. #TrueHero

On a side note, as I'm leveling my Stam DK I really love the insane CC stacking I can do. Whether it's Invasion knockdown + Heroic Slash slow, or Stampede slow + Wrecking Blow knockdown, or Flying Blade slow + Fossilize stun and root (my favorite against escaping targets)... the options to apply 2 or 3 different CC effects are nearly endless. Add the fact that all the gap closers are a root + silence while you travel to them.

Derra

No...

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

It´s nice that you list all these things but you´re completely ignoring what i´ve said. So while everything you state is true it does not contradict my statement...

As i´ve said: Both builds magica based attacking the sorc. I did also not talk about escaping them (you won´t).
A capable player with three shields will not be killed by two magica builds (the only exception being two sorcs that time their burst and get a bit lucky). Every other two magica builds are f*cked. That´s an issue.
You can literally cast three shields run around a tree and lol @ magica builds trying to get you.

Ofc this is due to light armor buff by 50% and health acutally having value now. However it´s only achieveable with three shields on bar period. If you only have two shields you´re going to die.

Unless that Sorc is using Ball of Lightning I can kill them with enough ultimate. My overload base damage at 1 second GCD will run them out of magicka, even if they're using harness.

Any good player playing the run around a tree LOL build is going to last indefinitely. I did this on my nightblade to two very good players for a good 3 minutes. Playing the LoS game is pretty stupid and its a boring way to fight.

I´ve met a couple of sorcs now who dumped 1000 ultimate of overload into me. The only time i died was after a bugged CF cc that i could not break. In every other scenario dodgerolling + shields (+ potions ofc) will guarantee i survive until they´re out of ultimate.
Key to overload is to never move into the sorcs direction or else they´re able to "stack" projectiles due to slow travel speed. If you let that happen you´re toast.

Yeah as long as you're doing nothing but stacking shields and dodge rolling and never attacking you could probably do it since dodge roll is on a seperate GCD than abilities and puts you at a GCD advantage to an overload sorc as long as you are animation cancelling your shield casting with dodge rolls (Which personally I've never come across).

Dodge roll is by far the most effective defense against a Sorc overloading but I've never really fought another effective overload sorc either so perhaps you haven't as well.

Well tbh i consider overload in a "duel" kind of trolling so i´ll just go into full turtle mode until their ultimate is depleted. You´re right if you aim to fight back there is no way to win against overlol.

zornyan

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

It´s nice that you list all these things but you´re completely ignoring what i´ve said. So while everything you state is true it does not contradict my statement...

As i´ve said: Both builds magica based attacking the sorc. I did also not talk about escaping them (you won´t).
A capable player with three shields will not be killed by two magica builds (the only exception being two sorcs that time their burst and get a bit lucky). Every other two magica builds are f*cked. That´s an issue.
You can literally cast three shields run around a tree and lol @ magica builds trying to get you.

Ofc this is due to light armor buff by 50% and health acutally having value now. However it´s only achieveable with three shields on bar period. If you only have two shields you´re going to die.

Unless that Sorc is using Ball of Lightning I can kill them with enough ultimate. My overload base damage at 1 second GCD will run them out of magicka, even if they're using harness.

Any good player playing the run around a tree LOL build is going to last indefinitely. I did this on my nightblade to two very good players for a good 3 minutes. Playing the LoS game is pretty stupid and its a boring way to fight.

I´ve met a couple of sorcs now who dumped 1000 ultimate of overload into me. The only time i died was after a bugged CF cc that i could not break. In every other scenario dodgerolling + shields (+ potions ofc) will guarantee i survive until they´re out of ultimate.
Key to overload is to never move into the sorcs direction or else they´re able to "stack" projectiles due to slow travel speed. If you let that happen you´re toast.

Yeah as long as you're doing nothing but stacking shields and dodge rolling and never attacking you could probably do it since dodge roll is on a seperate GCD than abilities and puts you at a GCD advantage to an overload sorc as long as you are animation cancelling your shield casting with dodge rolls (Which personally I've never come across).

Dodge roll is by far the most effective defense against a Sorc overloading but I've never really fought another effective overload sorc either so perhaps you haven't as well.

Well tbh i consider overload in a "duel" kind of trolling so i´ll just go into full turtle mode until their ultimate is depleted. You´re right if you aim to fight back there is no way to win against overlol.

What about sword and board reflect? Just throwing back the odd attack enough to keep them distracted for a second.

Xeven

No...

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

He would have to have enough magicka to top it off w/ a pot, and just one person keeping on him w/ gap closers or sprint would make him a free kill at the end. All I can conclude is that the 2 players he was fighting were him and unable to kill him for minutes on end were either not specced properly and/or need to git gud. In 2.1 it is easier than ever before for 2 people to kill a magicka sorc.

I would not agree to that if both build happen to be magica based and the sorc is using the dreaded trippleshield of trololo.
With 1.6 dmg was high enough to burst down even trippleshield sorcs with the right builds. Now there are builds that can just decide to be immortal against two players for several minutes.
That is definetly an issue.

Not really. Here's some key changes from my sorc experience than and now:

- Since 2.0 it's possible to stack much higher wep/spell dmg than 1.6, this lessens the impact of the dmg nerf from battle spirit changes.

- Bolt Escape cost nerf means I can't kite people who aren't potatos and have a gap closer.

- Additoinal Bolt Escape stealth nerf means I no longer blink in the direction the camera faces, but instead in the direction that my character is facing. This means that any root limits my mobility in 1 direction, such as into a wall going nowhere. Using Purge or dodge rolling to get out wastes 1 GCD and gives the opponent plenty of time to reapply gap closer + root after I get 1 Bolt Escape.

- Shields are weaker in proportion to damage than they were in 1.6, period. This is not something that is up for debate. Damage was nerfed an additional 30%, and shield strength was nerfed an additioanl 35%. On top of that, incorrect scaling formulas for shield morphs w/ % increases on the base strength were fixed (Hardened Ward, Dampen Magicka, Healing Ward) to be affected by battle spirit. This + the increased damage potential from higher wep/spell dmg & stat pools in 2.0 all make shields weaker proportionally than in 1.6. The increase to max magicka pools, by comparison, still doesn't provide an increase to shield strength enough to outweigh all these factors.

The thing that makes people more survivable is the way Health pools factor into this now. With the decreased damage from battle spirit, health is more powerful than it was in 1.6, meaning people don't blow up as easily when their shields go down before recasting them. This isn't an issue caused by shields, it's an issue w/ the battle spirit changes - and addressing battle spirit would be a better way to deal w/ it.

- Dodge roll nerf means I literally can non longer use my unique medium armor mag sorc build from 1.6. This build used to let me dodge roll effectively even w/ just a 9k stam pool. Obviously not infinitely like stam builds, but enough to make the loss of spell cost reduction + spell pen + regen a fair trade off. This build is dead now, end of story.

- Stam regen while blocking nerfed to hell means my heavy armor s/b builds are pretty much useless as a magicka build. 60+ points into block expertise + heavy armor + s/b + Energy Orb used to work great as a tanky sorc build, and again was a fair trade off for the loss of spell dmg/regen/cost reduction/spell pen. Now Enrgy Orb is unfeesable as a heal since I can't block while healing in the orbs.

It´s nice that you list all these things but you´re completely ignoring what i´ve said. So while everything you state is true it does not contradict my statement...

As i´ve said: Both builds magica based attacking the sorc. I did also not talk about escaping them (you won´t).
A capable player with three shields will not be killed by two magica builds (the only exception being two sorcs that time their burst and get a bit lucky). Every other two magica builds are f*cked. That´s an issue.
You can literally cast three shields run around a tree and lol @ magica builds trying to get you.

Ofc this is due to light armor buff by 50% and health acutally having value now. However it´s only achieveable with three shields on bar period. If you only have two shields you´re going to die.

Unless that Sorc is using Ball of Lightning I can kill them with enough ultimate. My overload base damage at 1 second GCD will run them out of magicka, even if they're using harness.

Any good player playing the run around a tree LOL build is going to last indefinitely. I did this on my nightblade to two very good players for a good 3 minutes. Playing the LoS game is pretty stupid and its a boring way to fight.

I´ve met a couple of sorcs now who dumped 1000 ultimate of overload into me. The only time i died was after a bugged CF cc that i could not break. In every other scenario dodgerolling + shields (+ potions ofc) will guarantee i survive until they´re out of ultimate.
Key to overload is to never move into the sorcs direction or else they´re able to "stack" projectiles due to slow travel speed. If you let that happen you´re toast.

Yeah as long as you're doing nothing but stacking shields and dodge rolling and never attacking you could probably do it since dodge roll is on a seperate GCD than abilities and puts you at a GCD advantage to an overload sorc as long as you are animation cancelling your shield casting with dodge rolls (Which personally I've never come across).

Dodge roll is by far the most effective defense against a Sorc overloading but I've never really fought another effective overload sorc either so perhaps you haven't as well.

I dont understand how sorc A can be any more effective at left clicking than sorc B to be honest. Maybe you've stacked your elemental damage through the roof or maybe you've found some effective combo but from my experience, any good sorc with annulment is going to shrug off an overload attack.

Ezareth

No...

Derra wrote: »

Well tbh i consider overload in a "duel" kind of trolling so i´ll just go into full turtle mode until their ultimate is depleted. You´re right if you aim to fight back there is no way to win against overlol.

Yeah that's part of why I don't like dueling. My build is centered around Overload and once I run out of overload my build is far less effective. When you have true PvP, neither play has any idea what the other player is about to do, what their bars look like etc, and they have only the information presented at the moment combat is engage. I usually spend a bit of time "farming ult" between real PvP engagements, or just riding a zerg for a bit from a safe zone to rebuild ult.

zornyan wrote: »

What about sword and board reflect? Just throwing back the odd attack enough to keep them distracted for a second.

I reflect it back to them and they get hit with two overloads simultaneously.

Xeven wrote: »

I dont understand how sorc A can be any more effective at left clicking than sorc B to be honest. Maybe you've stacked your elemental damage through the roof or maybe you've found some effective combo but from my experience, any good sorc with annulment is going to shrug off an overload attack.

I use 100 CPs in Elemental Mastery with 3200 spellpower and 45-49K magicka so the base hit of my overload is ~9K + 20% on the leading degeneration overload. It is high enough that if a player isn't refreshing their shields every GCD or mitigating it in another way like dodge roll then I end up eating into their health.

The most dangerous Part of my build I'm using reflect with a pretty high amount of stamina regen so when I reflect a projectile it does two things. It procs my defensive rune and stuns them at the same time it gives them a CC that takes a second or two to break. Meanwhile my second overload hits them at the same time my reflected projectile.

That's exactly how I killed another sorc Emperor a couple weeks ago. We had some back and forth for awhile and then I set up reflect/defensive rune and he sent an overload at me at the same time I lead with an overload degeneration combo. By the time he broke out of the stun/defensive rune his shields were down and his health was at 15% or so and he kept spamming shields (He couldn't swap out of overload to his healing bar so he was spamming hardened or annulement) but my overloads didn't stop flying the entire time. He wasted a single GCD in order to cast degeneration instead of his shield and he died because I was cutting his shields down at the same rate he was throwing them up. He would have survived if he had thought to dodge roll weapon swap to get to his healing ward bar but he probably didn't quit realize how hard my overloads are hitting for and he said his health bar desynced /shrug.

Xeven

No...

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well tbh i consider overload in a "duel" kind of trolling so i´ll just go into full turtle mode until their ultimate is depleted. You´re right if you aim to fight back there is no way to win against overlol.

Yeah that's part of why I don't like dueling. My build is centered around Overload and once I run out of overload my build is far less effective. When you have true PvP, neither play has any idea what the other player is about to do, what their bars look like etc, and they have only the information presented at the moment combat is engage. I usually spend a bit of time "farming ult" between real PvP engagements, or just riding a zerg for a bit from a safe zone to rebuild ult.

zornyan wrote: »

What about sword and board reflect? Just throwing back the odd attack enough to keep them distracted for a second.

I reflect it back to them and they get hit with two overloads simultaneously.

Xeven wrote: »

I dont understand how sorc A can be any more effective at left clicking than sorc B to be honest. Maybe you've stacked your elemental damage through the roof or maybe you've found some effective combo but from my experience, any good sorc with annulment is going to shrug off an overload attack.

I use 100 CPs in Elemental Mastery with 3200 spellpower and 45-49K magicka so the base hit of my overload is ~9K + 20% on the leading degeneration overload. It is high enough that if a player isn't refreshing their shields every GCD or mitigating it in another way like dodge roll then I end up eating into their health.

The most dangerous Part of my build I'm using reflect with a pretty high amount of stamina regen so when I reflect a projectile it does two things. It procs my defensive rune and stuns them at the same time it gives them a CC that takes a second or two to break. Meanwhile my second overload hits them at the same time my reflected projectile.

That's exactly how I killed another sorc Emperor a couple weeks ago. We had some back and forth for awhile and then I set up reflect/defensive rune and he sent an overload at me at the same time I lead with an overload degeneration combo. By the time he broke out of the stun/defensive rune his shields were down and his health was at 15% or so and he kept spamming shields (He couldn't swap out of overload to his healing bar so he was spamming hardened or annulement) but my overloads didn't stop flying the entire time. He wasted a single GCD in order to cast degeneration instead of his shield and he died because I was cutting his shields down at the same rate he was throwing them up. He would have survived if he had thought to dodge roll weapon swap to get to his healing ward bar but he probably didn't quit realize how hard my overloads are hitting for and he said his health bar desynced /shrug.

Ouch. Are you running inner light in that build?

Ezareth

No...

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well tbh i consider overload in a "duel" kind of trolling so i´ll just go into full turtle mode until their ultimate is depleted. You´re right if you aim to fight back there is no way to win against overlol.

Yeah that's part of why I don't like dueling. My build is centered around Overload and once I run out of overload my build is far less effective. When you have true PvP, neither play has any idea what the other player is about to do, what their bars look like etc, and they have only the information presented at the moment combat is engage. I usually spend a bit of time "farming ult" between real PvP engagements, or just riding a zerg for a bit from a safe zone to rebuild ult.

zornyan wrote: »

What about sword and board reflect? Just throwing back the odd attack enough to keep them distracted for a second.

I reflect it back to them and they get hit with two overloads simultaneously.

Xeven wrote: »

I dont understand how sorc A can be any more effective at left clicking than sorc B to be honest. Maybe you've stacked your elemental damage through the roof or maybe you've found some effective combo but from my experience, any good sorc with annulment is going to shrug off an overload attack.

I use 100 CPs in Elemental Mastery with 3200 spellpower and 45-49K magicka so the base hit of my overload is ~9K + 20% on the leading degeneration overload. It is high enough that if a player isn't refreshing their shields every GCD or mitigating it in another way like dodge roll then I end up eating into their health.

The most dangerous Part of my build I'm using reflect with a pretty high amount of stamina regen so when I reflect a projectile it does two things. It procs my defensive rune and stuns them at the same time it gives them a CC that takes a second or two to break. Meanwhile my second overload hits them at the same time my reflected projectile.

That's exactly how I killed another sorc Emperor a couple weeks ago. We had some back and forth for awhile and then I set up reflect/defensive rune and he sent an overload at me at the same time I lead with an overload degeneration combo. By the time he broke out of the stun/defensive rune his shields were down and his health was at 15% or so and he kept spamming shields (He couldn't swap out of overload to his healing bar so he was spamming hardened or annulement) but my overloads didn't stop flying the entire time. He wasted a single GCD in order to cast degeneration instead of his shield and he died because I was cutting his shields down at the same rate he was throwing them up. He would have survived if he had thought to dodge roll weapon swap to get to his healing ward bar but he probably didn't quit realize how hard my overloads are hitting for and he said his health bar desynced /shrug.

Ouch. Are you running inner light in that build?

No, although I would if it were not a toggle ability. My overload bar has proximity detonation that I also use to stack damage on my target and daedric mines (A must for fight a melee player). Overload bar is Degeneration, Prox Det, Ball of Lightning, Daedric Mines, Hardened Ward.

zornyan

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well tbh i consider overload in a "duel" kind of trolling so i´ll just go into full turtle mode until their ultimate is depleted. You´re right if you aim to fight back there is no way to win against overlol.

Yeah that's part of why I don't like dueling. My build is centered around Overload and once I run out of overload my build is far less effective. When you have true PvP, neither play has any idea what the other player is about to do, what their bars look like etc, and they have only the information presented at the moment combat is engage. I usually spend a bit of time "farming ult" between real PvP engagements, or just riding a zerg for a bit from a safe zone to rebuild ult.

zornyan wrote: »

What about sword and board reflect? Just throwing back the odd attack enough to keep them distracted for a second.

I reflect it back to them and they get hit with two overloads simultaneously.

Xeven wrote: »

I dont understand how sorc A can be any more effective at left clicking than sorc B to be honest. Maybe you've stacked your elemental damage through the roof or maybe you've found some effective combo but from my experience, any good sorc with annulment is going to shrug off an overload attack.

I use 100 CPs in Elemental Mastery with 3200 spellpower and 45-49K magicka so the base hit of my overload is ~9K + 20% on the leading degeneration overload. It is high enough that if a player isn't refreshing their shields every GCD or mitigating it in another way like dodge roll then I end up eating into their health.

The most dangerous Part of my build I'm using reflect with a pretty high amount of stamina regen so when I reflect a projectile it does two things. It procs my defensive rune and stuns them at the same time it gives them a CC that takes a second or two to break. Meanwhile my second overload hits them at the same time my reflected projectile.

That's exactly how I killed another sorc Emperor a couple weeks ago. We had some back and forth for awhile and then I set up reflect/defensive rune and he sent an overload at me at the same time I lead with an overload degeneration combo. By the time he broke out of the stun/defensive rune his shields were down and his health was at 15% or so and he kept spamming shields (He couldn't swap out of overload to his healing bar so he was spamming hardened or annulement) but my overloads didn't stop flying the entire time. He wasted a single GCD in order to cast degeneration instead of his shield and he died because I was cutting his shields down at the same rate he was throwing them up. He would have survived if he had thought to dodge roll weapon swap to get to his healing ward bar but he probably didn't quit realize how hard my overloads are hitting for and he said his health bar desynced /shrug.

Ouch. Are you running inner light in that build?

No, although I would if it were not a toggle ability. My overload bar has proximity detonation that I also use to stack damage on my target and daedric mines (A must for fight a melee player). Overload bar is Degeneration, Prox Det, Ball of Lightning, Daedric Mines, Hardened Ward.

So you're at nearly 50k magicka without inner light?

Ezareth

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well tbh i consider overload in a "duel" kind of trolling so i´ll just go into full turtle mode until their ultimate is depleted. You´re right if you aim to fight back there is no way to win against overlol.

Yeah that's part of why I don't like dueling. My build is centered around Overload and once I run out of overload my build is far less effective. When you have true PvP, neither play has any idea what the other player is about to do, what their bars look like etc, and they have only the information presented at the moment combat is engage. I usually spend a bit of time "farming ult" between real PvP engagements, or just riding a zerg for a bit from a safe zone to rebuild ult.

zornyan wrote: »

What about sword and board reflect? Just throwing back the odd attack enough to keep them distracted for a second.

I reflect it back to them and they get hit with two overloads simultaneously.

Xeven wrote: »

I dont understand how sorc A can be any more effective at left clicking than sorc B to be honest. Maybe you've stacked your elemental damage through the roof or maybe you've found some effective combo but from my experience, any good sorc with annulment is going to shrug off an overload attack.

I use 100 CPs in Elemental Mastery with 3200 spellpower and 45-49K magicka so the base hit of my overload is ~9K + 20% on the leading degeneration overload. It is high enough that if a player isn't refreshing their shields every GCD or mitigating it in another way like dodge roll then I end up eating into their health.

The most dangerous Part of my build I'm using reflect with a pretty high amount of stamina regen so when I reflect a projectile it does two things. It procs my defensive rune and stuns them at the same time it gives them a CC that takes a second or two to break. Meanwhile my second overload hits them at the same time my reflected projectile.

That's exactly how I killed another sorc Emperor a couple weeks ago. We had some back and forth for awhile and then I set up reflect/defensive rune and he sent an overload at me at the same time I lead with an overload degeneration combo. By the time he broke out of the stun/defensive rune his shields were down and his health was at 15% or so and he kept spamming shields (He couldn't swap out of overload to his healing bar so he was spamming hardened or annulement) but my overloads didn't stop flying the entire time. He wasted a single GCD in order to cast degeneration instead of his shield and he died because I was cutting his shields down at the same rate he was throwing them up. He would have survived if he had thought to dodge roll weapon swap to get to his healing ward bar but he probably didn't quit realize how hard my overloads are hitting for and he said his health bar desynced /shrug.

Ouch. Are you running inner light in that build?

No, although I would if it were not a toggle ability. My overload bar has proximity detonation that I also use to stack damage on my target and daedric mines (A must for fight a melee player). Overload bar is Degeneration, Prox Det, Ball of Lightning, Daedric Mines, Hardened Ward.

So you're at nearly 50k magicka without inner light?

49064 magicka exactly is my max magicka currently (at CP cap) and that would include inner light and bound aegis both. My PvE build has a maximum Magicka side that is "turned on" through my sword and board bar since none of my damaging abilities are on that bar so I have no need of penetration or spell damage or anything other than magicka on the bar. That is what I use to cast my hardened ward. When in Overload I'm on my staff bar which has a bit less magicka, yet well over 40K and is more spell damage focused.

In PvP I switch things around a bit, sometimes I switch to drink instead of food if I get into a fight that is going to take awhile to complete. When I killed that Emp I think I had 43K magicka in overload, I'll have to check my video at the time. I've really been trying out too many different things to see what works to be sure but every time I try runner inner light in PvP I lose too much utility and die too easily because I have to drop useful abilities like mines, defensive rune and prox-det etc.

dodgehopper_ESO

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

@Ezareth, I was just thinking about this a little while ago after looking at Fengrush's discussion. I realize if Hardened Ward became health based they would need to do some balancing to make up for the loss. I get that. What if Surge landed a much more reliable heal, even versus other shields? My position in this whole discussion is that they really need to simplify the design of their system, in large part because failure to do so will make Spellcrafting really difficult for them to implement (or worse it would completely ruin the balance of the game). I could be wrong but I think the overall design should try to make greater parity between comparable abilities. By doing this I think it will make it a lot easier for the developers to balance things overall. Please understand that when I voted yes to the possibility of HW being scaled off of health, I fully realize that other things would need to be brought into line for the Sorc. I personally think the function of Surge as a self heal could be part of that consideration. I know that my Nightblade does quite well keeping topped off on his health, based purely upon flinging the right amount of siphoning abilities. I reckon HW + a better functioning surge + dark magic passive could very well do the trick for this class. I'm also of the opinion that the way armor passives function could be better. Light armor could be stronger toward magic damage and weaker toward physical. Medium armor could be stronger toward physical and weaker toward magic damage. Heavy armor would just be the turtle that doesn't get all the more aggressive bonuses of the other two. I realize most Sorcs problem with Surge particularly in pvp right now is the way in which crits deal with damage shields, perhaps that is the core of what needs to be looked at.

Ezareth

No...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth, I was just thinking about this a little while ago after looking at Fengrush's discussion. I realize if Hardened Ward became health based they would need to do some balancing to make up for the loss. I get that. What if Surge landed a much more reliable heal, even versus other shields? My position in this whole discussion is that they really need to simplify the design of their system, in large part because failure to do so will make Spellcrafting really difficult for them to implement (or worse it would completely ruin the balance of the game). I could be wrong but I think the overall design should try to make greater parity between comparable abilities. By doing this I think it will make it a lot easier for the developers to balance things overall. Please understand that when I voted yes to the possibility of HW being scaled off of health, I fully realize that other things would need to be brought into line for the Sorc. I personally think the function of Surge as a self heal could be part of that consideration. I know that my Nightblade does quite well keeping topped off on his health, based purely upon flinging the right amount of siphoning abilities. I reckon HW + a better functioning surge + dark magic passive could very well do the trick for this class. I'm also of the opinion that the way armor passives function could be better. Light armor could be stronger toward magic damage and weaker toward physical. Medium armor could be stronger toward physical and weaker toward magic damage. Heavy armor would just be the turtle that doesn't get all the more aggressive bonuses of the other two. I realize most Sorcs problem with Surge particularly in pvp right now is the way in which crits deal with damage shields, perhaps that is the core of what needs to be looked at.

There are a lot of things that would need to be looked at if the value of hardened ward were to be reduced. There are many issues with the combat system right now. The mobility of sorcs has been completely gimped lately. You can totally lock a sorc down with roots and the only thing he can do is sit there an spam hardened ward if he's unable to roll out. Crit surge not healing on damage shields isn't a huge problem for magicka sorcs, but relying on your attacks needing to actually *hit* a target in order to heal is the biggest issue.

I recently fought Sabre Ali who IMO is currently the best Stamina NB that I've faced and he cut through my hardened ward as it stands today effortlessly and always kept me on the defensive. Only 1 out of my 4 or 5 overloads would hit him and he'd block the ones that did, virtually all of a Sorc's abilities are dodgeable except Velocious curse + AoE abilities. I use both Crit Surge and Degeneration for healing on my sorc yet he would cloak off the degeneration and I could never crit him so I had zero chance to heal myself. I went through every possibility in my head of what I could do to beat him I really couldn't have done anything better.

Then he equipped shield breaker (he was using reactive armor) and made fighting me a joke. No heals, and constant stead damage to my heal pool and there was nothing I could do. If hardened ward is ever reduced then a lot of these things would need to be changed.