Should Sorc shields scale of health?

Tankqull

zornyan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Sounds like a l2p issue.

Hmm yeah how insightful, please tell me, what piece of gear am I missing that doubles the range of my gap closer?

Or should I be constantly sprinting to them, draining my stamina which means, you guessed it, they can stun me for several seconds and just continue bolt escaping.

And tell me this, after a sorc has bolt escapes 6 7 or 8 times in a row, how long does it take you to sprint to them on a templar?

you do know that the range of your gap closer is 1.5x as long as a BE (not including hight differences wich favor gapclosers even more)?

Cinnamon_Spider

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now

And there is your ignorance on the subject in a nutshell. Even with the increases from new gear, no one has shields close in value to what they were before the nerfs, nor is healing or damage.

In the last patch, I had 29k magic on my sorc which gave me a 13k ward. I was able to run drinks over food and could outlast or escape most fights. This patch, I have over 40k magic and my ward is less than 13k with a resto/desto setup. I have to run food over drinks to be able to survive and I cannot bolt anywhere close to what I was able to previously, especially if I've run myself low on magic fighting.

zornyan wrote: »

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

I don't know if your issue is slow response times, or just the nature of how controllers work. You shouldn't have trouble keeping up with Toppling Charge unless you're not blocking or you aren't pressing the button quick enough. Since it's a gap closer, it has the built in stun that all gap closers currently have.

Jsmalls

No...

Docmandu wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Dunno.. it has to be useful, but at the moment it's stupid when you see sorcs that have bigger shields than their own health bar. Fact that shields make you crit immune doesn't help, or that Hardy also reduces damage to shields.

Top DPS with Top Defense = bad design.

You want WTF DPS? You should trade that for defense.

Currently you can have both... same problem as with pre-nerf DKs.

So stamina heals should no longer scale with wpnpower/maxstam as i take it?

Because currently stamina heals work in the same way as the sorc shields.

Well every heal does - but most of the time stam players are complaining. Change all the heals to scale on health :P

Show me a spammable stamina heal combo that covers your entire health bar, and we'll talk again.

I have 70 points into Bastion and a 40k magicka pool, with that I have above a 10k hardened ward shield in PVP, my health is about 24k in Cyrodil, so my shield covers less than half of my bar.

You aren't suppose to be able to have massive healing as a stamina build, just like I can't dodge roll and CC break indefinitely as a magicka build. Plus healing ward is much better than Hardened Ward in my opinion. Although I'll always keep both on my bar.

ToRelax

No...

zornyan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Sounds like a l2p issue.

#1 Hmm yeah how insightful, please tell me, what piece of gear am I missing that doubles the range of my gap closer?

#2 Or should I be constantly sprinting to them, draining my stamina which means, you guessed it, they can stun me for several seconds and just continue bolt escaping.

#3 And tell me this, after a sorc has bolt escapes 6 7 or 8 times in a row, how long does it take you to sprint to them on a templar?

#1 You don't even need any gear for that, all gap closers have higher range than Bolt Escape anyway.
#2 The stamina drain from sprinting is far lower than the magicka drain from Bolt Escape spam.
#3 Depends on your medium armor, speed buff, and what the Sorc is doing of course. I can tell if a Sorc used Bolt Escape that often in a row, he is now oom, that means he is either about to die or you actually let him escape. But you are right, if I'd play my stam DK and ran after him, it'd be a matter of around 10 seconds. Thing is, if I let him run, he wouldn't waste all his magicka, and if I didn't let him run, it would be even more stupid.

Hiero_Glyph

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now

And there is your ignorance on the subject in a nutshell. Even with the increases from new gear, no one has shields close in value to what they were before the nerfs, nor is healing or damage.

In the last patch, I had 29k magic on my sorc which gave me a 13k ward. I was able to run drinks over food and could outlast or escape most fights. This patch, I have over 40k magic and my ward is less than 13k with a resto/desto setup. I have to run food over drinks to be able to survive and I cannot bolt anywhere close to what I was able to previously, especially if I've run myself low on magic fighting.

I'm confused as before IC shields suffered a -20% penalty yet after IC they have a -50% penalty so weren't shields made stronger since all damage was halved and shields were only reduced an additional 30%?

FriedEggSandwich

No...

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now

And there is your ignorance on the subject in a nutshell. Even with the increases from new gear, no one has shields close in value to what they were before the nerfs, nor is healing or damage.

In the last patch, I had 29k magic on my sorc which gave me a 13k ward. I was able to run drinks over food and could outlast or escape most fights. This patch, I have over 40k magic and my ward is less than 13k with a resto/desto setup. I have to run food over drinks to be able to survive and I cannot bolt anywhere close to what I was able to previously, especially if I've run myself low on magic fighting.

I'm confused as before IC shields suffered a -20% penalty yet after IC they have a -50% penalty so weren't shields made stronger since all damage was halved and shields were only reduced an additional 30%?

From the IC patch notes:

"The Battle Spirit buff has been adjusted and now has 30% more damage reduction, 35% less healing received, and 50% less damage shield strength."

All damage wasn't halved, it was reduced by 30% from what it was, making a 50% reduction from pve.

Edit: my pve shield is around 28k give or take, my pvp shield is 10.1k. That's over 50% less shield in pvp than pve.

Wreuntzylla

Tankqull wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Sounds like a l2p issue.

Hmm yeah how insightful, please tell me, what piece of gear am I missing that doubles the range of my gap closer?

Or should I be constantly sprinting to them, draining my stamina which means, you guessed it, they can stun me for several seconds and just continue bolt escaping.

And tell me this, after a sorc has bolt escapes 6 7 or 8 times in a row, how long does it take you to sprint to them on a templar?

you do know that the range of your gap closer is 1.5x as long as a BE (not including hight differences wich favor gapclosers even more)?

So, you are saying that sorcs BE from a point centered on the enemy? What is the range from a competent sorcs spell range + the end of BE?

Paper theory crafting is useful for nothing...

Derra

No...

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Sounds like a l2p issue.

Hmm yeah how insightful, please tell me, what piece of gear am I missing that doubles the range of my gap closer?

Or should I be constantly sprinting to them, draining my stamina which means, you guessed it, they can stun me for several seconds and just continue bolt escaping.

And tell me this, after a sorc has bolt escapes 6 7 or 8 times in a row, how long does it take you to sprint to them on a templar?

you do know that the range of your gap closer is 1.5x as long as a BE (not including hight differences wich favor gapclosers even more)?

So, you are saying that sorcs BE from a point centered on the enemy? What is the range from a competent sorcs spell range + the end of BE?

Paper theory crafting is useful for nothing...

A sorc taking care to always bolt escape before anyone is in gapcloser range is not going to kill anyone though as you can just step back 1 step and be oor. Someone getting killed on maxrange is just as much papertheorycrafting (worst thing to do actually as CF projectile is sooo slow).

Gapclosers are far more potent than boltescape nowadays for any scenario that involves fighting at all (if you only intend to run away bolt escape does that still fine - however you can´t start that when someone is in gapcloser range as it´s literally impossible to escape someone halfcompetent with bolt now).

TheNephilimCrow

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Im not sorc so yes, if i was tho id say no.

You just want everything to be nerfed because you only play one class.

Stx

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

I think scaling sorc shields off health would make them a little too squishy but...

All I know is you shouldn't be able to build for glass cannon burst and have your main defensive ability scale better because of that. Glass dps sorcs tanking more damage than DKs and Templars who don't build glass is silly, and everyone knows it.

k2blader

No...

Stx wrote: »

I think scaling sorc shields off health would make them a little too squishy but...

All I know is you shouldn't be able to build for glass cannon burst and have your main defensive ability scale better because of that. Glass dps sorcs tanking more damage than DKs and Templars who don't build glass is silly, and everyone knows it.

There are probably a lot of idiots-- I mean players-- who will cry over even a low-CP'd sorc being able to "tank" a bunch of people for a few seconds by spamming Healing/Hardened Ward. After those few seconds the sorc will die without having killed anyone.. So why in the world is that a problem?

Also you don't seem to understand what "glass DPS" sorcs are as they would not be very tanky. Generally the sorcs people have trouble with have high CPs and great gear for max damage but that in itself does not equate to "glass DPS."

Titan1373

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

k2blader wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I think scaling sorc shields off health would make them a little too squishy but...

All I know is you shouldn't be able to build for glass cannon burst and have your main defensive ability scale better because of that. Glass dps sorcs tanking more damage than DKs and Templars who don't build glass is silly, and everyone knows it.

There are probably a lot of idiots-- I mean players-- who will cry over even a low-CP'd sorc being able to "tank" a bunch of people for a few seconds by spamming Healing/Hardened Ward. After those few seconds the sorc will die without having killed anyone.. So why in the world is that a problem?

Also you don't seem to understand what "glass DPS" sorcs are as they would not be very tanky. Generally the sorcs people have trouble with have high CPs and great gear for max damage but that in itself does not equate to "glass DPS."

There are probably a lot if idiots-- I mean players-- who will be blatantly biased and ignore balance because they play a certain class. It's not like they ran into a high cp sorc who could tank anything while dishing out insane burst. No no they must be running into low leveled low cp players who can tank multiple people while still hitting hard and having great mobility.

Doesn't that sound right?

Flak

No...

No shield should scale of health, best example is the templar shield which is completely useless because of that. There has to be other ways, like giving the underpowered classes skills that ignore damage shields.

Cinnamon_Spider

No...

Titan1373 wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I think scaling sorc shields off health would make them a little too squishy but...

All I know is you shouldn't be able to build for glass cannon burst and have your main defensive ability scale better because of that. Glass dps sorcs tanking more damage than DKs and Templars who don't build glass is silly, and everyone knows it.

There are probably a lot of idiots-- I mean players-- who will cry over even a low-CP'd sorc being able to "tank" a bunch of people for a few seconds by spamming Healing/Hardened Ward. After those few seconds the sorc will die without having killed anyone.. So why in the world is that a problem?

Also you don't seem to understand what "glass DPS" sorcs are as they would not be very tanky. Generally the sorcs people have trouble with have high CPs and great gear for max damage but that in itself does not equate to "glass DPS."

There are probably a lot if idiots-- I mean players-- who will be blatantly biased and ignore balance because they play a certain class. It's not like they ran into a high cp sorc who could tank anything while dishing out insane burst. No no they must be running into low leveled low cp players who can tank multiple people while still hitting hard and having great mobility.

Doesn't that sound right?

I'm at CP cap with 100 into Bastion. I have 44k magic. I cannot "tank" multiple players while being mobile and dishing out insane burst as you put it. Multiple people on me means I can do nothing but spam my Ward. Increasing bolt cost means I cannot maintain the distance my class requires.

I'd love to see a video of this sorc that you believe exists. Because the only one I can think of was using some form of exploit and has moved on to playing a Templar.

As much as you people want to believe otherwise, the Sorcerer class has been balanced to the point where Hardened Ward can barely withstand one hit and Bolt Escape does not in any way resemble an escape. The issue you're having is with Healing Ward and Harness Magic. Focus on those.

KenaPKK

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

What would a magicka sorc do if his shield was health based? Die.

The whole reason Sorcs (magical ones) even survive as is, is because of the shield. We have only one defensive buff, thats 7% mitigation.

We have no massive heal like the others. Like im so surprised when a temp or a DK heals, I go "whoa, if only I could heal that much in one go..." without a pet that is.

If that were to happen Id just roll a NB and pwn more.

Shame dks are so squishy right now they could stand up to us Nbs and Sorcs

*** are you smoking?..

Ezareth

No...

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Between 43 and 86%? Going off of remembered numbers.

I still enjoy my nightblade but my refusal to use cloak severely gimps my capabilities with the class as a solo player. I said sorc shields are still very strong when they are built correctly as is pretty much any class/build when it is put together correctly. They are nothing like the OP garbage they were in 1.6.

zornyan

Shields had a nerf increase from 20 to 50%

It is now 50% exactly, Harness Magicka tooltip is 11k in pve, 5.5k in pvp.

Ezareth

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Ezareth

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Shields had a nerf increase from 20 to 50%

It is now 50% exactly, Harness Magicka tooltip is 11k in pve, 5.5k in pvp.

Shields were nerfed from 15% to 50%. Damage was nerfed from 20% to 50% via the battle spirit (de)buff.

This means that shields were (not counting the bug fixed) nerfed more than damage was in the patch alone.

With the bug fix the bonuses given to Bastion (25%), Hardened Ward (33%), Dampen Magicka (up to 42%) and Healing ward (up to 300%)were effectively halved instead of only having 15% subtracted from them.

zornyan

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

Derra

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

Again you´re basing your argument on stacking shields which is a) not the topic of this thread 2) agreed upon being op by just about everyone even sorcs.

@Ezareth you might add that while average maximum magica was raised by about 15 - 20% the average spelldmg/wpndmg for most builds went up by 30 - 50% further strenghening dmg vs shields when compared to 1.6 numbers.

AfkNinja

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

@Derra is right, we all agree it's shield stacking. We can move on now.

I do find it funny this thread is still going as the Templar thread about our issues got buried at 15 pages lol.

zornyan

AfkNinja wrote: »

@Derra is right, we all agree it's shield stacking. We can move on now.

I do find it funny this thread is still going as the Templar thread about our issues got buried at 15 pages lol.

ZOS doesn't care about us, I've made 3 threads and tagged multiple mods in other threads, and submitted various bug reports about toppling/mist form and sweeps bugs.

0 acknowledgement about any of the issues. It's like they expect everyone to quit templars so they can just delete the class from the game.

Derra

No...

zornyan wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

@Derra is right, we all agree it's shield stacking. We can move on now.

I do find it funny this thread is still going as the Templar thread about our issues got buried at 15 pages lol.

ZOS doesn't care about us, I've made 3 threads and tagged multiple mods in other threads, and submitted various bug reports about toppling/mist form and sweeps bugs.

0 acknowledgement about any of the issues. It's like they expect everyone to quit templars so they can just delete the class from the game.

I would rather say that they have no idea how to balance templars without reworking the healing tree completely. They should have never designed the class with one skilltree completely dedicated to healing in the first place. This choice makes balancing a templar near impossible (they´re achieving this currently by offering the class very niche skills for dps roles and smallscale combat / cc).
The result is templars being unable to create competetive solo builds but still being the best grp class. If you´d add a sorcs/nbs solo capabilities on top of a templars grp potential you´d see nothing but templars in cyro.

zornyan

Derra wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

@Derra is right, we all agree it's shield stacking. We can move on now.

I do find it funny this thread is still going as the Templar thread about our issues got buried at 15 pages lol.

ZOS doesn't care about us, I've made 3 threads and tagged multiple mods in other threads, and submitted various bug reports about toppling/mist form and sweeps bugs.

0 acknowledgement about any of the issues. It's like they expect everyone to quit templars so they can just delete the class from the game.

I would rather say that they have no idea how to balance templars without reworking the healing tree completely. They should have never designed the class with one skilltree completely dedicated to healing in the first place. This choice makes balancing a templar near impossible (they´re achieving this currently by offering the class very niche skills for dps roles and smallscale combat / cc).
The result is templars being unable to create competetive solo builds but still being the best grp class. If you´d add a sorcs/nbs solo capabilities on top of a templars grp potential you´d see nothing but templars in cyro.

Very true, but for some reason they see fit to nerf us more and more, I really don't get the thinking.

Out of our entire healing tree, the only essential skill is breath of life, maybe purifying ritual.

Healing ritual is barely used, in pve and pvp.

Rune focus is okiesh, although it needs to be longer duration, should be a 20 sec armor buff just like every other buff.

Repentance is really only good for trash pve, pvp unless zerg in you don't have bodies. The 10% regen buff should be for slotting ANY resorting light tree, just like how dk/nb/sorc work, not force us to use a useless skill.

The 6% weapon damage and spell resist should be changed to 6/6 weapon and spell (or either if we could choose)

Sweeps/jabs needs an overhaul , it missed far far too often, even when perfectly positioned, maybe change so that it locks on, like wrecking blow. Or be more generous with the cone/radius.

Blazing shield R.I.P

But lots of things need addressing, I'd happily have our heals toned down to give us some kind of burst damage, all of our Damm skills are channels. Yeah jabs CAN hit hard in a perfect world, but even then a stealth NB hitting ambush/suprise attack will land 2-3 hits for my one.

Derra

No...

I´d say the only skill not mandatory for a templar is healing ritual out of that tree.
Repentance is tricky but insanely op when used right / build for it (dwemer pets leave corpses). This becomes even more potent when your grp builds to suit it.
Breath of life and purifying ritual are both nobrainers (puryfying ritual being able to effectively render one immortal against magica projectiles on range).
Rune focus could use a longer buffduration for the armor/resi part - that said i´d trade it for the magica reg alone for boundless storm.

Can´t comment on the other trees. The only problem i have is how they´re very "closed" as they don´t mix and match well at all with the exception of javelin - maybe.

Ezareth

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

zornyan

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

Yeah your 49 k is seriously close to the guy that has 65k that recently posted in the sorc section.

Oh sorry he's 64k with dual stat food.

14K damage is alot to keep constantly negated, not to mention it procs your single target dps skill that hits like a truck and cost next to nothing and knocks down.

Bolt escape seems to work really well for the sorcs I see spamming it like it's going out of fashion.

Fought a sorc again yesterday, his frags took at least 40%+ of my hp each hit, (26K total hp) and he was using bolt escape every possible second he could.

His rotation was bolt escape through, frags, bolt escape, frags, bolt escape, frags, ward, repeat.

After draining my 40k magicka on heals, and my attacks not even being able to bring his shields down, a couple friends arrived, he just bolt escaped away, counted 3 times before he diseppeared off.

Damm that skill must be expensive...

Teargrants

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

Yeah your 49 k is seriously close to the guy that has 65k that recently posted in the sorc section.

Oh sorry he's 64k with dual stat food.

14K damage is alot to keep constantly negated, not to mention it procs your single target dps skill that hits like a truck and cost next to nothing and knocks down.

Bolt escape seems to work really well for the sorcs I see spamming it like it's going out of fashion.

Fought a sorc again yesterday, his frags took at least 40%+ of my hp each hit, (26K total hp) and he was using bolt escape every possible second he could.

His rotation was bolt escape through, frags, bolt escape, frags, bolt escape, frags, ward, repeat.

After draining my 40k magicka on heals, and my attacks not even being able to bring his shields down, a couple friends arrived, he just bolt escaped away, counted 3 times before he diseppeared off.

Damm that skill must be expensive...

1. Gid gud.
2. You cannot use bolt escape every other GCD, w/in 5-7 casts you will go from full to OOM, and that's not even counting the skills you claim being cast in between each.
3. If 3 bolt escapes in a row is all it takes to escape your friends, you friends have a serious case of needing to git gud.

Cinnamon_Spider

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Please quit spreading your uninformed garbage and innuendo here. FOTM indeed, you don't know anything about me or my history in this game.

Shields were nerfed far more than anything else because they benefited far more than anything else from the buff with Battle Spirit stacking additively instead of multiplicatively (which I've already explained earlier in this thread). I don't need to spell out the math for you because you've already demonstrated that logic isn't your strong point.

Yeah sure a sorc running round with 25k worth of shields (or a possible 85k as I showed earlier in the thread) is totally totally balanced.

I'm SURE that's why sorcs are finding vetmsa easy mode, and conquering it with ease compared to all other classes, I'm SURE that's why nobody EVER complains about sorcs, ya know like this 20 page thread, nope nope all balanced and working as intended.

Btw they've already confirmed class rebalance incoming next year, hope you enjoy your fotm build while it lasts.

With some of the highest magicka possible in the game right now I have 49,064 magicka and my hardened ward is 14K in Cyrodiil. 14K and I've sacrificed all my health, regen, and a good deal of possible spellpower to maximize magicka. I don't care about hardened ward for healing ward because I don't use either one but I can only negate 14,000 damage done to me with no reliable heals and a bolt escape that is both buggy and completely drains my magicka while not doing anything to actually escape good players.

And if you think VetMSA is easymode as a Sorc, by all means go try one on a sorc and see just how easy it is. I know some *very* good sorcs who are still unable to complete it because it has nothing to do with being a sorc and everything to do with need to dedicate time to learn each fight and how to counter it with your build.

Yeah your 49 k is seriously close to the guy that has 65k that recently posted in the sorc section.

Oh sorry he's 64k with dual stat food.

14K damage is alot to keep constantly negated, not to mention it procs your single target dps skill that hits like a truck and cost next to nothing and knocks down.

Bolt escape seems to work really well for the sorcs I see spamming it like it's going out of fashion.

Fought a sorc again yesterday, his frags took at least 40%+ of my hp each hit, (26K total hp) and he was using bolt escape every possible second he could.

His rotation was bolt escape through, frags, bolt escape, frags, bolt escape, frags, ward, repeat.

After draining my 40k magicka on heals, and my attacks not even being able to bring his shields down, a couple friends arrived, he just bolt escaped away, counted 3 times before he diseppeared off.

Damm that skill must be expensive...

The guy with 65k was using a build that he said wouldn't work in PVP and was just to see how high he could get his magic.

Bolt Escape has an increasing 50% cost each time you use it again within 4 seconds. If you're able to wait out the 4 second period, then you can use it like he was, of course.

I'm just wondering why you aren't blocking these frags or streaks, using immovable pots, dodging, using LOS, etc. It really sounds like most of your problem with sorcs is not having the right gear and skills slotted and the rest is down to skill/experience.

And VetMSA is not simple on a sorc. I keep hearing that being parroted, but it simply not true. The people that have cleared it multiple times are spending the time to learn it.