Should Sorc shields scale of health?

AfkNinja

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

Titan1373

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

How about they just give us a power that works like shieldbreaker. That way people don't have to be a Stam based medium armor player to combat shield stacking. Update assault and let's do this.

usmcjdking

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

If your build is so reliant on the use of 1-2 skills to simply negate/ignore mechanics.

Then your build sucks and will not withstand the test of time. Sorry .

Darnathian

Ezareth wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

....make shields crittable, increase all shields by ~20% to compensate....

As stated many, many, many times in this thread....That's not sound advice at all.

1) It will make wards even stronger against non-crit builds which is not needed. It will make shield-casters even tankier against a huge amount of people.

2) The effect would be damaging to build diversity as everyone will end up running crit builds. Crit builds are fine how they are in PvP. When block/shields drop the damage boost is very high. We don't need crit bypassing more defense mechanisms.

3) This will lead to even higher stamina build bias as they get extra crit passives from medium armour and daggers. Stamina builds don't have problems cutting through shields even without Shield Breaker. It's because they bypass Harness and they deal higher damage on average due to lack of CP passive that would mitigate them.

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Then don't post. Your post is whining also. Lol

Waffennacht

No...

A health based sorc... sounds absolutely horrid.

Absolutely horrid I say!

I can't even fathom how bad the shield would be or how bad the build would be...

I tried a heavy health build to tryand take advantage of Clannfear heals, it was as bad as you would think it would be...

Ezareth

No...

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

Ender1310

The question begs could you unnerf bolt escape if you made this change. This has always been the problem with sorcs too much easy symmetry. On my nb all my dwfensive passives point me toward tanking they line up with heavy armor passives. Of course you go that route and you lose damage with sorcs you just stack magic may the sorc with the most cp win. This is why the nerds to bolt

AfkNinja

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not (then correct me with proof), and presented an obviously biased (Prove I am biased, I am arguing for balance not for Temp to be better than everyone. If anything you are the one who is biased.) and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you? (If you are going to respond to me you should respond to my points, not insult me and call me uninformed.)

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes. (You assume a lot. Apparently everyone who disagrees with you is "uninformed".)

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. (Which insults? I was debating points not insulting people. That's how debate works.) So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective. (The objective was to discuss how to fairly balance Sorc which is hard to do when you refuse to admit there is even a problem.)

Yea I am the one on a high horse here...

"Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here." (It's generally assumed once you start throwing insults in a debate you've lost your point.)

I'm not the one flinging around "L2P" right and left and insulting everyone who disagrees with you. You came in here and immediately dismissed all arguments as trolling and whining. My point has remained the same, Proactive defense is better than reactive defense and shield stacking (proactive defense) is unbalanced.

My most recent comments were only made because you rode in here on YOUR high horse, put everyone down without reading a single word and acted like you are gods gift to the ESO forums. Do you think your special or something just cause you're good at a game?

Clearly you know the sorc class better than I do which is why I was asking you to explain your reasoning. You claim I "distorted" everything you said? I though the whole point of a debate is to, you know, debate? You make a point, I discuss your point and refute it with my own, at this time you're supposed to respond and refute my points (if you can). But you don't, you just fling insults and act superior like no one can know anything about the game except you.

And if I did rant at you I apologize, I just hate seeing people like you marginalize and dismiss other peoples arguments you disagree with without even debating the points.

Ezareth

No...

AfkNinja wrote: »

At any point you can get a crystal frags proc (35% chance means it should proc on ave every 2-3 skills), hell you could have a crystal frags proc on hold just from running around using boundless storm and your shields. At that point it's very easy to use the crystal frag, drop your burst skills like Velocious Curse and streak through your opponent and watch him explode and not be able to react. I've seen it happen. Not to mention if someone wants to WB you all you have to do is streak right through them to break LOS and stop it.

Uninformed and Misinformed.

AfkNinja wrote: »

Clearly I am not an expert on Sorc, I will admit that freely. However I do play sorc, I am currently leveling one in DC and he's lvl 32 I think. I don't understand your reasoning at all. How is it a "waste" to immediately enter combat with a 10k+ dmg Crystal Shard?

No level 32 is getting anywhere near a 10K Crystal frag crit. Misinformation.

Ezareth wrote: »

[
It would have a huge effect in its utility, especially in PvE. Many of my deaths happen in VMSA because I forgot to reapply my shield. Having to do this every 10 seconds would be terrible.

AfkNinja wrote: »

btw Ezareth was complaining about having to recast Boundless Storm if changed to 10 seconds, I just find that funny. .

Butchering what I said.

AfkNinja wrote: »

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

I'm well aware of the differences between having strong proactive defense versus strong reactive defenses. I could write a book on the subject. I feel that others addressed the points so I didn't feel the need to, plus I was enjoying a 72 hour suspension for a little south park gif I included in an unrelated thread.

My nightblade relies upon reactive defenses. He has just under 40% Critical Resistance and extremely high Hardy, Elemental Defender and thick skinned CPs. A stamina build when attack from stealth is able to use a dodge roll to mitigate all other damage along with the best CC in the game(fear) which I use to top my health back up while applying debuffs (piercing mark) and buffs to myself. I often send my nightblade into areas where I *know* a group of NB stealth gankers are waiting in order to draw them out and kill them.

A Templar wears the same armor as a sorc true but he also builds his defenses much differently. Sorcs are penalized for using Health as it does nothing for them but templars are not. A templar therefor will never be insta-gibbed by other players because he'll be using a build with much higher healh. The advantage a templar has in both healing bonuses to low hitpoint targets and a shield that does damage as it shields as well that when coupled with healing will allow a templar under heavy melee attack to do decent damage to attacking targets while using purely defensive abilities for all of his GCDs. I'm can probably say I'm the best sorc in the game at burning down players using Power Overload because I've been doing it longer and more effective than anyone else I see using it and ganking a good templar using overload is simply not possible due to the effectiveness of their healing if they play it right. It's just the way the math works out on BoL compared to my overload crits, plus they're able to dodge roll just as much as I can buying them time to gain a GCD on me when needed.

AfkNinja wrote: »

[
I'm not the one flinging around "L2P" right and left and insulting everyone who disagrees with you. You came in here and immediately dismissed all arguments as trolling and whining. My point has remained the same, Proactive defense is better than reactive defense and shield stacking (proactive defense) is unbalanced.

My most recent comments were only made because you rode in here on YOUR high horse, put everyone down without reading a single word and acted like you are gods gift to the ESO forums. Do you think your special or something just cause you're good at a game?

Clearly you know the sorc class better than I do which is why I was asking you to explain your reasoning. You claim I "distorted" everything you said? I though the whole point of a debate is to, you know, debate? You make a point, I discuss your point and refute it with my own, at this time you're supposed to respond and refute my points (if you can). But you don't, you just fling insults and act superior like no one can know anything about the game except you.

And if I did rant at you I apologize, I just hate seeing people like you marginalize and dismiss other peoples arguments you disagree with without even debating the points.

I've never told anyone to L2P that I recall, but I will admit I mistook you for Zornyan who has been far worse and insulting than you.

If I'm dismissive of comments it is because of people like that who just make random numbers up or pull some manufactured unrealistic number out of context and fling it around like it is something ever player in the game is doing all the time. It gets old. I've probably had this "debate" literally a dozen times now on these forums...every time someone says "Sorc shields should scale off of health" all because there are 2 or 3 new players who werent in the last thread that heard someone say that somewhere and thing its a good idea (without understanding it).

A Sorc literally has to build their entire defense around their hardened ward stack as they have no options to mitigate physical damage while using any other effective build. Reducing the size of hardened ward even marginally will have detrimental effects on a sorc. Right now we sacrifice all of our health, 100 of our defensive (Warrior) CPs, and trait bonuses to boost our magicka as high as possible so we're able do something other than spam shields the entire time we fight.

I decided to try about 15 minutes of PvP using my PvE setup in Cyrodiil last night. I had ~48,000 magicka and a 14K hardened ward which is larger than anyone you're going to see who isn't Emperor and I died easily every time when I got 3 good players on me. When I had two players I was able to do well, not because of my hardened ward but because I was able to utilize *dodge roll* while animation cancelling my overload attacks when fighting them. Any time I tried relying on my Hardened ward for defense it got cut through almost effortlessly. That is the reality of PvP right now. Keep in mind I don't use healing ward or Harness magicka, I use hardened ward only and it just isn't enough by itself *as it is*. If it is reduced at all Sorcs who aren't able to reach 48K magicka with the best gear in the game and 500 CPs are just going to be easy kills for any stamina build.

AfkNinja

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Thank you, that was a great post and I appreciate that you took the time to respond. I honestly don't want this to get personal, but I do enjoy debating and to that end I was expecting a response like the one you posted above. On to my response.

35% chance means it should proc on ave every 2-3 skills, you called this uninformed and misinformed. I disagree, the tooltip states that it procs 35% of the time, am I wrong about that? I understand basic probability and statistics as you do I am sure, no you will not proc a shard every 3 skills exactly however I stated on AVERAGE. As sample size increases your shards will average to 35% which is pretty close to getting a proc every three skills as I said, someone posted the exact percentages but I don't want to reread 19 pages to find it. So was I exactly right? No, but I was not misinformed either.

"No level 32 is getting anywhere near a 10K Crystal frag crit. Misinformation." My apologies I think you misread what I wrote. At no point was I claiming that I myself at lvl 32 am hitting those numbers. I was merely asking why you felt it was a waste to enter combat and immediately put your opponent on defense by slamming him with a crystal frag proc that you already had waiting. Just curious about your tactical reasoning for this, if you start with a frag then rotate your timed burst would you not on average still proc a second shard after casting let's say velocious curse to encase or something like that?

"Many of my deaths happen in VMSA because I forgot to reapply my shield. Having to do this every 10 seconds would be terrible." I don't think i butchered what you said, you said you'd be upset at having to recast it every 10 secs which is what I said. I agree, it sucks having to recast your armor skill so much (like templar does). My point might not have been valid for the shield discussion I admit, but surely you can see my frustration with having to constantly recast my armor buff, I just think it was an odd choice on ZOS's part to make temps shield so short.

"A Templar wears the same armor as a sorc true but he also builds his defenses much differently. " Yes because he has too, he doesn't have a choice because of reactive defense. He has to have enough hp to survive initial burst meaning he has to lose some dmg for HP. My point was if shield stacking was limited to say 2 shields you might also have to stack hp. As it stands now though, you don't. Proactive defense means you get to ignore hp and stack mp if you want. (Not everyone does this though, just pointing out how extreme it can get.)

I think a lot of the disconnect between us has been you mistaking me for Z. I wasn't making up numbers I was just using examples from recent sorc threads I have read. Although I am not a high lvl sorc I still like to play the class and love to read up on it, study builds, watch pvp etc. Although I don't have exact numbers from my own sorc I wasn't just making things up, I was going by information provided by people like you in threads like this. Anyway I appreciate that you responded at all, your above post was much closer to what I was expecting this whole time and I can see some of the arguments you are making even if I don't personally agree with them.

Dekkameron

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Make it scale off of base armour rating i say. That way the only people with uber shields would be the ones already wandering about in heavy armour and a shield.

Maulkin

No...

Dekkameron wrote: »

Make it scale off of base armour rating i say. That way the only people with uber shields would be the ones already wandering about in heavy armour and a shield.

Post of the year candidate right here.

Make a defence mechanic (wards) that provides no armor/spell resistance, scale off the very thing it doesn't have. So the traditional defense mechanic of mage builds becomes a useless mechanic for tanks instead /slowclap

Then you guys wonder why ezareth is being dismissive around here. On the contrary, I think he's being overly polite. I'm just straight up laughing at the things that come out of this thread now.

Dekkameron

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

Make it scale off of base armour rating i say. That way the only people with uber shields would be the ones already wandering about in heavy armour and a shield.

Post of the year candidate right here.

Make a defence mechanic (wards) that provides no armor/spell resistance, scale off the very thing it doesn't have. So the traditional defense mechanic of mage builds becomes a useless mechanic for tanks instead /slowclap

Then you guys wonder why ezareth is being dismissive around here. On the contrary, I think he's being overly polite. I'm just straight up laughing at the things that come out of this thread now.

I wasn't being serious hehe

Maulkin

No...

Dekkameron wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

Make it scale off of base armour rating i say. That way the only people with uber shields would be the ones already wandering about in heavy armour and a shield.

Post of the year candidate right here.

Make a defence mechanic (wards) that provides no armor/spell resistance, scale off the very thing it doesn't have. So the traditional defense mechanic of mage builds becomes a useless mechanic for tanks instead /slowclap

Then you guys wonder why ezareth is being dismissive around here. On the contrary, I think he's being overly polite. I'm just straight up laughing at the things that come out of this thread now.

I wasn't being serious hehe

Well, I've since crazier stuff posted in this thread. Can't blame me for falling for it

Sublime

No...

As long as I get something like cloak/bol I'm fine without it. (And no, Streak doesn't work as only defensive skill)

Makkir

Ezareth wrote: »

I was enjoying a 72 hour suspension for a little south park gif I included in an unrelated thread.

Did you have withdrawls? My last 72 hour ban I went on a rampage when I found out a forum ban also meant an in game ban.

Derra

No...

AfkNinja wrote: »

Thank you, that was a great post and I appreciate that you took the time to respond. I honestly don't want this to get personal, but I do enjoy debating and to that end I was expecting a response like the one you posted above. On to my response.

35% chance means it should proc on ave every 2-3 skills, you called this uninformed and misinformed. I disagree, the tooltip states that it procs 35% of the time, am I wrong about that? I understand basic probability and statistics as you do I am sure, no you will not proc a shard every 3 skills exactly however I stated on AVERAGE. As sample size increases your shards will average to 35% which is pretty close to getting a proc every three skills as I said, someone posted the exact percentages but I don't want to reread 19 pages to find it. So was I exactly right? No, but I was not misinformed either.

It means on average every fourth skillcast will be a frag (about every 2.9 skillcasts). Frags can not proc on itself. So yes your comment was un/misinformed and a huge exaggeration to prove your point.

On the proactive reactive defense part: Having higher HP and reactive defense favors skill while proactive defense favors idiots to some degree. I still much rather play my reactive NB than my sorc nowadays.

eliisra

Ezareth wrote: »

A Templar wears the same armor as a sorc true but he also builds his defenses much differently. Sorcs are penalized for using Health as it does nothing for them but templars are not. A templar therefor will never be insta-gibbed by other players because he'll be using a build with much higher healh. The advantage a templar has in both healing bonuses to low hitpoint targets and a shield that does damage as it shields as well that when coupled with healing will allow a templar under heavy melee attack to do decent damage to attacking targets while using purely defensive abilities for all of his GCDs.

Please stop making *** up.

How are magicka templars not penalized for stacking health? Everyone is *** penalized for stacking health in PvP. That's the meta and you know it.

Same story endgame PvE. You need burst and sustain. Everyone besides pure tanks should more or less ignore the health attribute.

What if the templar feels like not hitting like a soggy noddle, what if the templar feels like having good resource management? You cant have that and high health.

How many templar stack health and run Blazing Shield in vMA because so viable and does so much for them? Roughly not a single one.

How many normal magicka/stamina built templars can use Sun Shield in PvP after the blanket nerf. Not a single one.

So no clue why you're drawing up some kind of fantasy scenario about being "under heavy melee attack and doing decent dmg to attacking target blah". Only a templar tank can do that and this thread clearly isn't about theory crafting tank builds.

But of course, sorc shield should not scale of health. Than they wont be able to use their shield either. Than we might as well remove shields from the game entirely, if all of them scales of health. Because again, stacking health in PvP or endgame PvE, is not viable.

Ezareth

No...

AfkNinja wrote: »

"A Templar wears the same armor as a sorc true but he also builds his defenses much differently. " Yes because he has too, he doesn't have a choice because of reactive defense. He has to have enough hp to survive initial burst meaning he has to lose some dmg for HP. My point was if shield stacking was limited to say 2 shields you might also have to stack hp. As it stands now though, you don't. Proactive defense means you get to ignore hp and stack mp if you want. (Not everyone does this though, just pointing out how extreme it can get.)

I PvP exclusively with a single shield and it works well. However in order to actually be survivable I have to couple that with multiple other defenses including a high amount of stam regen, Defensive posture/sword&board, two different sources of healing (Degeneration and Power Surge) , Defensive Rune, and Daedric mines and Ball of Lightning. I have an extremely balanced build with the only exception being I completely forsake health because statistically it provides far less benefit than magicka. This does not mean that the reason for magicka being better for me than health needs nerfed because frankly hitpoints give me absolutely nothing. A Templar not only benefits from blazing shield being larger than health they already have less chance of being 1-shotted and a greater chance of being able to utlizie their healing benefits on low health targets. A sorc when they are low health can throw on Hardened Ward for example but any abilities with built in executes are still getting those execute bonuses on the shield until their health climbs above that threshold.

There is something to be said for running a reactive(Which actually is a coupling of Reactive and *Passive*) defense TBH. I absolutely love playing my NB exactly because I don't have to constantly run around with a shield up. I sprint everywhere endlessly and react the moment I'm attacked without worrying about being 1-shot by anyone. There are differences between the two and one is better in some places and not in others.

Darnathian

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Derra

No...

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Yet still 80% of players you encounter in cyrodiil not running with zergs are not sorcs but NBs (along with almost all known sorcs who were playing solo switching to NB or stam DK). Makes you figure...

Maulkin

No...

Darnathian wrote: »

How hard they were nerfed?

About 25%

Darnathian wrote: »

Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking.

That's not a problem with Sorcs or Hardened Ward. That's a problem with shield properties in general. Anyone can shield stack. Every single Sorc here has said shield stacking is problematic. So what do you achieve by telling back to us exactly what we told you in the first place?

The reason why you guys sound like angry children with L2P issues is because you keep repeating the same arguments with failed logic (sorc problem =/ shield stacking) and whatever we say is not taken on board at all. It's like talking to walls

Darnathian

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

How hard they were nerfed?

About 25%

Darnathian wrote: »

Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking.

That's not a problem with Sorcs or Hardened Ward. That's a problem with shield properties in general. Anyone can shield stack. Every single Sorc here has said shield stacking is problematic. So what do you achieve by telling back to us exactly what we told you in the first place?

The reason why you guys sound like angry children with L2P issues is because you keep repeating the same arguments with failed logic (sorc problem =/ shield stacking) and whatever we say is not taken on board at all. It's like talking to walls

We are going in circles. I understand it's a problem for all. No class benefits from it more than a sorc. Period. You class is a much higher shield do to it scaling off magicka. That is a fact.

At this point what does it matter. Balancing is coming and if you don't think Sorcs and nb's will be effected then I don't know what to tell you. All I can't tell you is Sorcs better jump on the no more shield stacking with the rest of the population and nb's better come up with some reasonable changes or careful what you wish for.

Because whether you want it or not, balancing is coming next year. And we know ZOS track record. You don't want any changes for your class fine, they will determine what's best, regardless of whether they play or not.

Derra

No...

Darnathian wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

How hard they were nerfed?

About 25%

Darnathian wrote: »

Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking.

That's not a problem with Sorcs or Hardened Ward. That's a problem with shield properties in general. Anyone can shield stack. Every single Sorc here has said shield stacking is problematic. So what do you achieve by telling back to us exactly what we told you in the first place?

The reason why you guys sound like angry children with L2P issues is because you keep repeating the same arguments with failed logic (sorc problem =/ shield stacking) and whatever we say is not taken on board at all. It's like talking to walls

We are going in circles. I understand it's a problem for all. No class benefits from it more than a sorc. Period. You class is a much higher shield do to it scaling off magicka. That is a fact.

At this point what does it matter. Balancing is coming and if you don't think Sorcs and nb's will be effected then I don't know what to tell you. All I can't tell you is Sorcs better jump on the no more shield stacking with the rest of the population and nb's better come up with some reasonable changes or careful what you wish for.

Because whether you want it or not, balancing is coming next year. And we know ZOS track record. You don't want any changes for your class fine, they will determine what's best, regardless of whether they play or not.

The problem with the upcoming balance updates is zos listening to the wrong feedback and nerfing things to the ground (as they did with DKs). Remove shieldstacking - have a look at sorcs shield afterwards.

If you touch the sorc shield and leave stacking untouched (as this topic suggests) while not buffing sorc defense elsewhere the class will be even more useless than DKs are now because no amount of health you add on your sorc template is going to save a class that´s unable to replenish health reliably (NBs are able to and tbh as a magblade i don´t think a cloak nerf will do anything).

zornyan

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

ToRelax

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Sounds like a l2p issue.

Tankqull

as i do not know where to start i numbered your points to keep it simple and not a quote war...

zornyan wrote: »

#1 Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

#2 Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

#3 No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

#4 My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

#5 He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

#6 He can survive easier than my templar

#7 They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

#7 Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

#7 This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

#1+2 well values have been nerfed, you are currently now now observing lower numbers than in 1.6 but the difference is not that much as you would have expected thx to the issues you described.

#3 to be honest doing pve vMA in particular on my NB respecced to mana is 10x easier than with sorc, simply because of not eating any dmg with perma 60++% dmg reduction while beeing shielded for as much as on my sorc with 10k hots running permanently and 50% higher dps than on my sorc with the same gear (muled it as i have only two mana sets one for my templar and one for my sorc)
and even on my templar vMA is alot more chilled than on my sorc as harness magica + siphon spirit+ degeneration + puncturing sweep is a completly braindead playstyle.

#4 i have no clue what you are doing on your DK but truely tanking is alot easier for my on my DK than on my sorc

#5 you are doing sth terribly wrong on you NB if thats the case (out side of overload spam that actually hits a target)

#6 well, the thing here is it depends on the situation i´m facing alot of situation where surviving with the templar is easier and more productive in its out come than on a sorc as well - but i´m not denying than sorcs can survive pretty well as every class (maybe outside of mana dks in some situations)

#7 sorry but this is the typical gruntling regarding sorcs where you allway s will recieve a "L2P" or "git gud" as that is actually the case, i´ve not been unable to stay on top of a sorc since 1.7 as long as the servers went smooth, all charges are uneffected in there range by hight while BE significantly is, all charges are block-spammable (and here is the L2P issue to know when the sorc will actually use it multiple times or when she tries to cc you by streaking to get out of your range - and playing a sorc on your own is a great help in this regard ). so out side of situations where the server just hickup and favors one of the participant sides in ping rates wich saddly happens way to often there is absolutly nothing a sorc can do to actually escape anymore.

Maulkin

No...

zornyan wrote: »

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

You and maths are not the best of friends are you?

zornyan

ToRelax wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Has anything useful been said in this thread in the past 4 or 5 days or is it just the same 2 or 3 irrational nerfherders whining still? I've already wasted too much time here.

Look, I get it, you love your class and don't want to see any changes that would effect your gameplay. But there is no need to act like this and honestly it has negatively affected my view of you. Before this thread I had read a few arguments by you and you were usually well reasoned and not resorting to crap like this. I'm sure you couldn't care less but you will get more people to agree with you with a good argument than slinging around insults like some kind of elitist.

If you're gonna debate then debate on the merits of your argument. Cut out this "nerfherders whining" shiz and act like you can rationally think and explain your points. No one even asked you to be here, if you don't wanna discuss this go read a different thread or start your own where you can explain the finer points of your argument.

I mean for real, you didn't even respond once to the points I made about proactive defense vs reactive and why you feel Sorc is justified in not only having a proactive defense but having a proactive defense which can stack with non-class skills to triple it's effectiveness.

You put everyone down for repeating the same arguments but you do the same thing. I personally don't care if changes are made or not, I'm merely pointing out the disparity in your defense vs other classes and I am not the only one. How many of these threads asking for Sorc re-balancing pop up every week? Tons! Why? Because people can see the advantage you have and they feel it's unfair. If you feel it's fair use math and reasoning to show why it's equal and stop trying to personally insult people, they have just as much right to their opinions as you even if they are wrong. If you are right it should be easy to prove it.

You have butchered virtually everything I've said, tried passing off far too much as fact that was not, and presented an obviously biased and uninformed position in virtually *everything* you've said and dragged the discussion into several tangents. Do you really expect me or anyone else to try and have an actual discussion with you?

We've already pointed out the obvious reasons why this entire thread is absurd yet still it goes on about nerfing sorcs or buffing templars. I have no desire to discuss these opinions with a bunch of random people who haven't spent enough time in the game to learn their own class, yet alone other people's classes.

I PvPed on a Stamina Nightblade for the past 6 months, I know just how powerful sorcs are and just how hard they were nerfed this patch. You had one of the top PvP templars in the game here arguing with you and you insulted and dismissed her as well. So please step down from your high horse sir, there is no high ground in this discussion, just a giant meandering mess with no real objective.

How hard they were nerfed? Come on man. They didn't address the problem with sorcs at all. Shield stacking. While you were a NB you said things they still havnt fixed.

Shields wernt nerfed at all, yes the battle spirit debuff might have been raised, but thanks to a mix of vr16 and new gear and new enchants raising stats far higher than before, shields are infact far higher than before.

Same with damage, and even healing, the nerf is non effective on geared vr 16s , since our raw stats are so much higher now .



Obviously Ezareth is just being defensive as he doesn't want the fotm build nerfed...

Ezareth you said it yourself, Sorc is easy mode, you can kill things far quicker, you can survive far longer, you can escape far easier

No class should feel that superior in both pvp and pve to others, Sorc really is the easy mode of the game, whys that? Because they are over powered.

My sorc is tankier that my heavy armor dk

He hits just as hard as my glass cannon stamblade (if not harder)

He can survive easier than my templar

They have all the beat attributes of all the classes, their escape is broken and our of control.

Yesterday I was fighting a sorc in scourge, he was vr6, so probably battle leveled, he bolt escaped, by the time I clicked toppling charge he bolt escapes twice more, far out of gap closer range, then all he did was run for a bit, wait a few seconds and come back at full resources.

This happened 4 times in a row, it's utterly stupid that they can get that much distance instantly, putting them far out of gap closing range.

Sounds like a l2p issue.

Hmm yeah how insightful, please tell me, what piece of gear am I missing that doubles the range of my gap closer?

Or should I be constantly sprinting to them, draining my stamina which means, you guessed it, they can stun me for several seconds and just continue bolt escaping.

And tell me this, after a sorc has bolt escapes 6 7 or 8 times in a row, how long does it take you to sprint to them on a templar?

Waffennacht

No...

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I was enjoying a 72 hour suspension for a little south park gif I included in an unrelated thread.

Did you have withdrawls? My last 72 hour ban I went on a rampage when I found out a forum ban also meant an in game ban.

WAIT. Couldn't read any more past this.... that just ain't right! I mean omg... that's serious, um... need to add something on topic for fear of game ban...

No to health based shield, it isn't enough... um... no need to fight on disagreements... um... Templars can have health so it evens out? Im afraid... DON'T BAN ME please? Lol