"Nerf cloak" ... But it's stamblade damage that is op ... (explanation)

Forestd16b14_ESO

Post still alive? Well either one stamina or magicka the Night Blade class needs nerfed period. No if and or but the class in general needs nerfed be magicka based or stamina based. Also most stamina base builds use the weapons skills cause there barely any stamina morphs of class skills so wanna say stamina builds are OP look towards the weapon skills and stop nerfing DKs and Templars.

Jade1986

KenaPKK wrote: »

The purge is strong, but it's very important

laced wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Yeah nerfing cloak is not the answer to the issues that people have been having. Nerfing cloak will continue putting magicka play styles in the trash bin outside of Sorc when in fact stamina play styles should be brought in line. One change I could see is make stam heals break cloak like mag heals do if cloak is such an issue from stamblades...but the reality is that surprise attack needs to be tuned clearly....I have seen higher numbers from SA than WB in fights at times. I don't think it's an issue exclusive to NBs tho, clearly stamina in a lot of ways is king play style now. I think across the board it should be tuned down to balance with magicka. I'm not for blanket knee-jerk nerfs, but tuning needs to happen. What I see happening though is that like Sorc and dk, nb is going to get the Nerfs next and we will have new balance issues.

And 1 shot builds are not exclusive to NB these days... Seen quite a few bow using DKs trying to do this too lately...name a mag class that can create a 1 shot build it's not gonna happen...and the sad part is that zenimax tried to do away with 1 shotting with damage reduction lol. Yes magicka has more utility, but ppl who play mag also need to kill people and not be 1 shot.

Yes, because our dodge roll totally wasnt destroyed recently.

Roll dodge is fine considering how strong it is. If you're having problems with it, you're rolling too often.

laced wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I also think what a lot of people are feeling with magicka nightblades is the "perma" cloak.

I see many people complain that they just run if it gets to tough or they are outnumbered. However there are so many counters to cloak right now.

Some of the more popular counters:

• Any type of AoE's (I.E. Steel Tornado)
• Sorc Streak
• Radiant Magelight
• Detect pots
• NB Mark

This works for any NB stamina or magicka, but ZoS is most likely going to put a magicka regen nerf while in cloak because of all the QQ'ing going on in the forums currently.

I've been playing a magicka nightblade for some time now and I mostly use cloak as a purge rather than something I use to fight. Sure there are times when I see that the fight is not in my favor and I try to bounce... sometimes I get rekt by the counters other times I can escape. It just comes down to how you use your counters.

I hope they reconsider any future nerfs to cloak.

The purge is also another reason it needs to have a nerf, because Magicka DKs rely a lot on dots, and having a class be able to constantly, with no punishment, be able to purge their dots is not ok by any means. Every other class had mass nerfs to their abilities / mechanics, NBs are the only ones that have been spared so far, so either undo the nerfs other classes / mechanics got, or expect nbs to finally get nerfed, its overdo.

The purge is strong, but also very important considering damage-specced Nightblades have low max health and no shields or burst heals.

That roll IS ok, but the point I was making is that it was nerfed HARD and is still ok, so if the cloak and other utilities were toned down to be on paar with other classes and specs, they would still be fine, they just wouldnt be so ridiculous anymore.

That is a logical fallacy that assumes that both are equally OP to start with. This thread is debating that premise. Don't bypass it please.

They were both pretty damned OP. As a magicka nightblade you can escape on demand, and purge on demand at any time, absolutely no punishment what so ever, giving you the upper hand in pretty much every solo / small group situation, hell even in some large group situations. Even the counters to cloak were nerfed, making it more powerful. So either the counters and other class abilities need to be brought up to be in line with cloak, or it needs to be brought down quite a bit. Obviously this is a different story for stamblades, but they don't spam it as much.

Jade1986

Igawotch wrote: »

laced wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I also think what a lot of people are feeling with magicka nightblades is the "perma" cloak.

I see many people complain that they just run if it gets to tough or they are outnumbered. However there are so many counters to cloak right now.

Some of the more popular counters:

• Any type of AoE's (I.E. Steel Tornado)
• Sorc Streak
• Radiant Magelight
• Detect pots
• NB Mark

This works for any NB stamina or magicka, but ZoS is most likely going to put a magicka regen nerf while in cloak because of all the QQ'ing going on in the forums currently.

I've been playing a magicka nightblade for some time now and I mostly use cloak as a purge rather than something I use to fight. Sure there are times when I see that the fight is not in my favor and I try to bounce... sometimes I get rekt by the counters other times I can escape. It just comes down to how you use your counters.

I hope they reconsider any future nerfs to cloak.

The purge is also another reason it needs to have a nerf, because Magicka DKs rely a lot on dots, and having a class be able to constantly, with no punishment, be able to purge their dots is not ok by any means. Every other class had mass nerfs to their abilities / mechanics, NBs are the only ones that have been spared so far, so either undo the nerfs other classes / mechanics got, or expect nbs to finally get nerfed, its overdo.

Because cloak WAS broken and very unreliable even our own dots would break it.

And now it was fixed, does not change the fact that it needs toning down.

KenaPKK

laced wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

The purge is strong, but it's very important

laced wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Yeah nerfing cloak is not the answer to the issues that people have been having. Nerfing cloak will continue putting magicka play styles in the trash bin outside of Sorc when in fact stamina play styles should be brought in line. One change I could see is make stam heals break cloak like mag heals do if cloak is such an issue from stamblades...but the reality is that surprise attack needs to be tuned clearly....I have seen higher numbers from SA than WB in fights at times. I don't think it's an issue exclusive to NBs tho, clearly stamina in a lot of ways is king play style now. I think across the board it should be tuned down to balance with magicka. I'm not for blanket knee-jerk nerfs, but tuning needs to happen. What I see happening though is that like Sorc and dk, nb is going to get the Nerfs next and we will have new balance issues.

And 1 shot builds are not exclusive to NB these days... Seen quite a few bow using DKs trying to do this too lately...name a mag class that can create a 1 shot build it's not gonna happen...and the sad part is that zenimax tried to do away with 1 shotting with damage reduction lol. Yes magicka has more utility, but ppl who play mag also need to kill people and not be 1 shot.

Yes, because our dodge roll totally wasnt destroyed recently.

Roll dodge is fine considering how strong it is. If you're having problems with it, you're rolling too often.

laced wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I also think what a lot of people are feeling with magicka nightblades is the "perma" cloak.

I see many people complain that they just run if it gets to tough or they are outnumbered. However there are so many counters to cloak right now.

Some of the more popular counters:

• Any type of AoE's (I.E. Steel Tornado)
• Sorc Streak
• Radiant Magelight
• Detect pots
• NB Mark

This works for any NB stamina or magicka, but ZoS is most likely going to put a magicka regen nerf while in cloak because of all the QQ'ing going on in the forums currently.

I've been playing a magicka nightblade for some time now and I mostly use cloak as a purge rather than something I use to fight. Sure there are times when I see that the fight is not in my favor and I try to bounce... sometimes I get rekt by the counters other times I can escape. It just comes down to how you use your counters.

I hope they reconsider any future nerfs to cloak.

The purge is also another reason it needs to have a nerf, because Magicka DKs rely a lot on dots, and having a class be able to constantly, with no punishment, be able to purge their dots is not ok by any means. Every other class had mass nerfs to their abilities / mechanics, NBs are the only ones that have been spared so far, so either undo the nerfs other classes / mechanics got, or expect nbs to finally get nerfed, its overdo.

The purge is strong, but also very important considering damage-specced Nightblades have low max health and no shields or burst heals.

That roll IS ok, but the point I was making is that it was nerfed HARD and is still ok, so if the cloak and other utilities were toned down to be on paar with other classes and specs, they would still be fine, they just wouldnt be so ridiculous anymore.

That is a logical fallacy that assumes that both are equally OP to start with. This thread is debating that premise. Don't bypass it please.

They were both pretty damned OP. As a magicka nightblade you can escape on demand, and purge on demand at any time, absolutely no punishment what so ever, giving you the upper hand in pretty much every solo / small group situation, hell even in some large group situations. Even the counters to cloak were nerfed, making it more powerful. So either the counters and other class abilities need to be brought up to be in line with cloak, or it needs to be brought down quite a bit. Obviously this is a different story for stamblades, but they don't spam it as much.

Cloak is only an escape against bad players. Against competent players, it's not an escape at all. Against competent players, a magicka nightblade is lucky to get any window of actual invisibility.

And all players can purge on demand.

Jade1986

KenaPKK wrote: »

laced wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

The purge is strong, but it's very important

laced wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Yeah nerfing cloak is not the answer to the issues that people have been having. Nerfing cloak will continue putting magicka play styles in the trash bin outside of Sorc when in fact stamina play styles should be brought in line. One change I could see is make stam heals break cloak like mag heals do if cloak is such an issue from stamblades...but the reality is that surprise attack needs to be tuned clearly....I have seen higher numbers from SA than WB in fights at times. I don't think it's an issue exclusive to NBs tho, clearly stamina in a lot of ways is king play style now. I think across the board it should be tuned down to balance with magicka. I'm not for blanket knee-jerk nerfs, but tuning needs to happen. What I see happening though is that like Sorc and dk, nb is going to get the Nerfs next and we will have new balance issues.

And 1 shot builds are not exclusive to NB these days... Seen quite a few bow using DKs trying to do this too lately...name a mag class that can create a 1 shot build it's not gonna happen...and the sad part is that zenimax tried to do away with 1 shotting with damage reduction lol. Yes magicka has more utility, but ppl who play mag also need to kill people and not be 1 shot.

Yes, because our dodge roll totally wasnt destroyed recently.

Roll dodge is fine considering how strong it is. If you're having problems with it, you're rolling too often.

laced wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I also think what a lot of people are feeling with magicka nightblades is the "perma" cloak.

I see many people complain that they just run if it gets to tough or they are outnumbered. However there are so many counters to cloak right now.

Some of the more popular counters:

• Any type of AoE's (I.E. Steel Tornado)
• Sorc Streak
• Radiant Magelight
• Detect pots
• NB Mark

This works for any NB stamina or magicka, but ZoS is most likely going to put a magicka regen nerf while in cloak because of all the QQ'ing going on in the forums currently.

I've been playing a magicka nightblade for some time now and I mostly use cloak as a purge rather than something I use to fight. Sure there are times when I see that the fight is not in my favor and I try to bounce... sometimes I get rekt by the counters other times I can escape. It just comes down to how you use your counters.

I hope they reconsider any future nerfs to cloak.

The purge is also another reason it needs to have a nerf, because Magicka DKs rely a lot on dots, and having a class be able to constantly, with no punishment, be able to purge their dots is not ok by any means. Every other class had mass nerfs to their abilities / mechanics, NBs are the only ones that have been spared so far, so either undo the nerfs other classes / mechanics got, or expect nbs to finally get nerfed, its overdo.

The purge is strong, but also very important considering damage-specced Nightblades have low max health and no shields or burst heals.

That roll IS ok, but the point I was making is that it was nerfed HARD and is still ok, so if the cloak and other utilities were toned down to be on paar with other classes and specs, they would still be fine, they just wouldnt be so ridiculous anymore.

That is a logical fallacy that assumes that both are equally OP to start with. This thread is debating that premise. Don't bypass it please.

They were both pretty damned OP. As a magicka nightblade you can escape on demand, and purge on demand at any time, absolutely no punishment what so ever, giving you the upper hand in pretty much every solo / small group situation, hell even in some large group situations. Even the counters to cloak were nerfed, making it more powerful. So either the counters and other class abilities need to be brought up to be in line with cloak, or it needs to be brought down quite a bit. Obviously this is a different story for stamblades, but they don't spam it as much.

Cloak is only an escape against bad players. Against competent players, it's not an escape at all. Against competent players, a magicka nightblade is lucky to get any window of actual invisibility.

And all players can purge on demand.

Not all players can cloak -and- purge though. That is the problem. There needs to be limits to that for magicka users.

acw37162

I am sure it's been said 100 times;

Ambush - Suprise Attack is good made nigh godly by the fuzzy stun both morphs of Ambush apply for 1/2 to complete second.

Also the the snare on lotus fan is legit, especially when coupled with fear.

Fear needs an adjustment not enough to be useless but enough to regulate is use through organic gameplay, (ex spitballing use of fear puts a 1/2 to 1 second bebuf on the user, no offensive (damaging abilities) heals and utility would still be active so you could escape)

None of these alone are terrible all in one they are crazy good

Igawotch

laced wrote: »

Igawotch wrote: »

laced wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I also think what a lot of people are feeling with magicka nightblades is the "perma" cloak.

I see many people complain that they just run if it gets to tough or they are outnumbered. However there are so many counters to cloak right now.

Some of the more popular counters:

• Any type of AoE's (I.E. Steel Tornado)
• Sorc Streak
• Radiant Magelight
• Detect pots
• NB Mark

This works for any NB stamina or magicka, but ZoS is most likely going to put a magicka regen nerf while in cloak because of all the QQ'ing going on in the forums currently.

I've been playing a magicka nightblade for some time now and I mostly use cloak as a purge rather than something I use to fight. Sure there are times when I see that the fight is not in my favor and I try to bounce... sometimes I get rekt by the counters other times I can escape. It just comes down to how you use your counters.

I hope they reconsider any future nerfs to cloak.

The purge is also another reason it needs to have a nerf, because Magicka DKs rely a lot on dots, and having a class be able to constantly, with no punishment, be able to purge their dots is not ok by any means. Every other class had mass nerfs to their abilities / mechanics, NBs are the only ones that have been spared so far, so either undo the nerfs other classes / mechanics got, or expect nbs to finally get nerfed, its overdo.

Because cloak WAS broken and very unreliable even our own dots would break it.

And now it was fixed, does not change the fact that it needs toning down.

I do agree some things need to be change just not nerfed into the ground.

SupremeTravie

CP5 wrote: »

SupremeTravie wrote: »

All the qq from the NB haters is annoying. There was a time pre 1.6 where we were the most underpowered class in the game by far and now that most of our abilites are working as attended we are apparently OP. Leave the class alone its fine. Work on balancing the classes so that they are on par with NB's. Nothing needs nerfing just buff other classes so thats even across the board. Every class in the game has a broken skill/skills so it wouldn't be fair to just nerf the ability to stealth.. I mean it is a NIGHTBLADE. Their class is based on stealth and mobility. Taking that away from the class will just put us back to where we were before. A broken stealth OR one that isn't as useful as it is right now will bring us back to pre 1.6 with almost no mobility to get away. There are many counters already to getting someone out of stealth. Inlcuding a pot that totally negates our core ability.

DK's didn't use scales for a while because it drained resources per reflect like mad, given the unlimited projectile limit. When ZOS fixed that it became rather apparent that having a class have a skill that could not only negate 100% of single target range skills damage, but also deal 100-135% of that damage back to targets was a bit extreme. Just because something was broken in the past does not mean it is not overpowered when working properly.

That is true but in this case however I feel like the skill isn't overpowered. As I stated before there are many counters to our very own core ability. I don't see a single skill or pot that counters flappy wings.

CP5

SupremeTravie wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

SupremeTravie wrote: »

All the qq from the NB haters is annoying. There was a time pre 1.6 where we were the most underpowered class in the game by far and now that most of our abilites are working as attended we are apparently OP. Leave the class alone its fine. Work on balancing the classes so that they are on par with NB's. Nothing needs nerfing just buff other classes so thats even across the board. Every class in the game has a broken skill/skills so it wouldn't be fair to just nerf the ability to stealth.. I mean it is a NIGHTBLADE. Their class is based on stealth and mobility. Taking that away from the class will just put us back to where we were before. A broken stealth OR one that isn't as useful as it is right now will bring us back to pre 1.6 with almost no mobility to get away. There are many counters already to getting someone out of stealth. Inlcuding a pot that totally negates our core ability.

DK's didn't use scales for a while because it drained resources per reflect like mad, given the unlimited projectile limit. When ZOS fixed that it became rather apparent that having a class have a skill that could not only negate 100% of single target range skills damage, but also deal 100-135% of that damage back to targets was a bit extreme. Just because something was broken in the past does not mean it is not overpowered when working properly.

That is true but in this case however I feel like the skill isn't overpowered. As I stated before there are many counters to our very own core ability. I don't see a single skill or pot that counters flappy wings.

Cloak has a very large number of things going for it. Ignoring the skill for a moment let's see the passives, and not all, just the passives that benefit from the skill. Shadow Barrier gives NB's the major armor/spell resist buffs, from cloak or any shadow ability, the other classes only have 1 in class method of gaining that passive, and with Dark Vigor NB's can gain the largest pool of health as other classes don't have an in class means of buffing max health. Just having cloak on bar gives bonus max health and an easy means to get the major buff.

Then there is cloak, on use it forces attacks to miss like a dodge roll with no scaling cost, it clears tab targeting which is key to getting away from pvp fights against people who really want you dead. Lined up with surprise attack's stun or a guaranteed crit, or like some NB's do and pool their heals into their cloak, where they then leave cloak with full or almost full health. Or rather than the single crit NB's can purge 4 dots per cast, sure DK's love their classes main source of damage being so easy to ignore.

That doesn't even begin to talk about how powerful invisibility is. Sorry, but cloak as a single skill has so much packaged with it ZOS would be hard pressed to buff all other skills to be as invaluable as it, and we both know ZOS's prefered route to 'fix' things.

Lucky28

SupremeTravie wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

SupremeTravie wrote: »

All the qq from the NB haters is annoying. There was a time pre 1.6 where we were the most underpowered class in the game by far and now that most of our abilites are working as attended we are apparently OP. Leave the class alone its fine. Work on balancing the classes so that they are on par with NB's. Nothing needs nerfing just buff other classes so thats even across the board. Every class in the game has a broken skill/skills so it wouldn't be fair to just nerf the ability to stealth.. I mean it is a NIGHTBLADE. Their class is based on stealth and mobility. Taking that away from the class will just put us back to where we were before. A broken stealth OR one that isn't as useful as it is right now will bring us back to pre 1.6 with almost no mobility to get away. There are many counters already to getting someone out of stealth. Inlcuding a pot that totally negates our core ability.

DK's didn't use scales for a while because it drained resources per reflect like mad, given the unlimited projectile limit. When ZOS fixed that it became rather apparent that having a class have a skill that could not only negate 100% of single target range skills damage, but also deal 100-135% of that damage back to targets was a bit extreme. Just because something was broken in the past does not mean it is not overpowered when working properly.

That is true but in this case however I feel like the skill isn't overpowered. As I stated before there are many counters to our very own core ability. I don't see a single skill or pot that counters flappy wings.

let me put it like this. right now, Cloak is like Steak and Wards wrapped in one ability and you know what happened to them?.

Shouldn't come as a surprise. I mean i said it on the 2.1 pts. nerfing one ability will lead to nerfing another and so on so forth, and that's just where we are. *shrugs*

though i did also say, i would prefer they undid the nerfs they gave other classes and items rather than nerfing cloak. the previous nerfs are what led to the nightblade problem and i'm not a fan of the idea that all classes will eventually be nerfed into the ground.

Lava_Croft

Lucky28 wrote: »

let me put it like this. right now, Cloak is like Steak and Wards wrapped in one ability and you know what happened to them?.

Ward works after you press the button, Streak kind of works after pressing the button, but sadly they added a ridiculous cost increase.

Cloak however will always require me to either pop an Immovability potion, use Shadow Image or just run into a bunch of scrubs that have no clue how to deal with it. Run into any decent player and Cloak is not nearly as reliable of an escape as a lot of you people make it out to be.

Not to mention one can just drink a potion and reveal the Cloaker to everybody in the vicinity...

KenaPKK

Cloak isn't an escape. Stop treating it as one. Escapes move you. Cloak makes people pop a potion or an aoe or a mark. That's it.

leepalmer95

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cloak isn't an escape. Stop treating it as one. Escapes move you. Cloak makes people pop a potion or an aoe or a mark. That's it.

Cloak is the only escape.

BuggeX

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cloak isn't an escape. Stop treating it as one. Escapes move you. Cloak makes people pop a potion or an aoe or a mark. That's it.

even when i spam Talons and a NB cloak right infront of me they can escape.

KenaPKK

Ok, it didn't seem to sink in the first time.. Escapes move you. They get you out of trouble.

If the enemy is playing properly (i.e. isn't a trashcan), then he will have proper counters to Cloak handy and will deny the invisibility 100% of the time.

Cloak should break when a player uses Vigor, but not Rally. That's all I think needs to be changed with the ability.

OdinForge

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cloak isn't an escape. Stop treating it as one. Escapes move you. Cloak makes people pop a potion or an aoe or a mark. That's it.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cloak isn't an escape. Stop treating it as one. Escapes move you. Cloak makes people pop a potion or an aoe or a mark. That's it.

Cloak is the only escape.

I've returned to this thread, after taking the time to revisit my magblade (with the help of Kena).

First off Kena is right, cloak is no escape. If you cannot counter cloak there is seriously something wrong with your approach. I've got a good example here, I wish I would have recorded it to make it easier. Someone was complaining about a NB hiding inside Alessia marking them and jumping out to attack before hiding. 5 minutes pass and I decide to go check it out, I pop a detect pot on the top floor and there is the NB hiding in front of me. I jump on him and kill him in the detect pot duration, and whisper the person who was getting trolled by him "Detect Pot". The person responded "I don't use those", well there is your problem, people aren't willing to learn counters just sit around and complain.

I've spent some time last week dueling some top tier stam and mag players on NA with my magblade. I spent more time out of cloak, warding and doing damage rotations, to actually try to work my targets HP down. If you spend too much time hiding or positioning yourself with cloak, a top tier enemy is going to undo all the work you've been doing against their resources. The difference between fighting a potato and fighting a good player with cloak, is that a potato gets cheesed and cheese doesn't stop a good player.

Ironically I spend more time in cloak on my stamblade however, trying to catch a breather and heal (many times easier said than done). The difference being that the right gear + healing ward + swallow soul gives me the breathing room I need while I'm fighting on my magblade. While on my stamblade I'm healing mostly in reaction to danger (save for preemptive vigor casts here and there). A good example is fighting a high damage output Stamplar as a stamblade, the edge I often use to win is a backtrack -> cloak -> heal -> DPS, but if they simply popped a detect pot they could continue smacking me with the overwhelming damage I'm trying to take a breather from for 3 seconds.

I run around on both my mag and my stamblade with detect pots 100% of the time, and they work 100% of the time. I was able to fight both stam and magblades without mark, by simply having better upkeep of resources and HP.

If vigor removed you from cloak while casting it, I'd just cast it before a cloak. If it removed you from cloak period while active, I'd literally stop slotting cloak on my stamblade.

Tl;Dr: Cloak isn't an escape, it's a tool for positioning. Healing shouldn't break cloak on a stamblade, people should embrace counters.

mrdankles

3 cloaks and I'm out of magic and get killed... Not op at all as a stamblade...

Brrrofski

Barlthump wrote: »

Once again dumping on a class that is supposed to be a stealth burst class. Think of it in real life. Do you expect to survive a fight with someone, when someone stabs a knife through your back? I mean think about it he spends a great deal of time in stealth. Puts himself in an better position to kill you and properly buffs up to kill you cause you have like 16k hp. And you coke here are start saying that ther burst is insane. Did you know that all the stam morphs of the nightblade tree does magic damage and are hence mitigated by CP? Or are you putting 100 points into bastion right away and running into battle with 8k physical damage reduction.OH MY V16 SORC I'M MAKING YOU V16 ASAP

Thing is, with vigor stamblades are also stupidly tanky on top of being lethal.

I don't even have vigor yet and I have stupidly survivability.

Rylana

Revisiting the thread to give some more thoughts on it. Still stand by my original post that stam everything is the bigger/real issue...

That being said.

Point 1: Dark Cloak needs the same gradual cost increase added to it that streak has had for quite some time now.

Reason: Streak is a sorcs mobility/reposition/escape. Dark Cloak is the same for a nightblade (plus a cleanse), therefore the two abilities must match in cost, regardless of whether the build is magicka or stam-based. The first 2-3 casts would be within reason for either style, then get prohibitively high for a stamblade (as it should) at about 4, and for a magickablade at about 7-9 (as it should, and as it does for streak on sorcs). And remember, the cost drops back down to regular if you dont hit it again for four seconds. In those four seconds, even a stam build will have recovered a sizeable portion of their magicka bar, more than enough for the next cloak if needed.

Point 2: Class/skill balancing should never EVER be solely based on dueling each other or class v class. It should always include elements of small/medium/large group consequence or utility, as well as (mehhhh) even PvE applications.

Reason: Too many nightblade abilities synergize extremely well with groups. If you nerf them, it affects group play, if you buff them it affects group play. By the same token, nerfing or buffing them because of its use in group play, could then make it useless or extremely OP for solo play. A really good example of this is ambush and how it has become a cornerstone of extremely cheesy group play, but if that ability gets nerfed too hard because of the gapclose-root issue, it becomes a completely useless skill for solo play, much in the same way lotus fan used to be the buttend of the joke for every nightblade out there running it (pre 1.6). Same with fear. Fear is probably too strong in group play, it needs a tune badly, but it completely loses utility in solo play if you nerf it. Other problems exist such as combination attacks being too strong together (SA/Ambush, det/tether/sap, caltrops/siphoningattacks, etc). You have to look at the root of the issues instead of just dueling a few times and saying "this is okay, that is bad" based on the results of a duel.

Point 3: Swallow soul needs to have either its damage/heal component nerfed, or its cost raised by about 4x.

Reason: 7k-9k ranged damage that also heals you for a pretty high amount, that costs less than 1000 magicka and be spammed forever? Magicka nightblades are not hurting for damage quite as much as some of you make it out to be. At least a DK has be within 5 meters to Burning embers someone, and that does a fraction of the damage for the cost of the cast, all for a heal that is actually less that what the NB gets instantly. (can be purged too, to counter the inevitable block/reflect argument). Healing ward coupled with this ability makes magicka nightblades ridiculously hard to kill, add in the cloak problem this thread is about, and it becomes pretty arbitrary.

Point 4: Stam damage, cost, scaling needs to be reverted back to how it was about six months ago.

Reason: The whole one pool argument for all abilities/heals/mitigations is a fallacy, and has been for a long long time. Damage is based on your total pool, not your remaining (which is a problem in and of itself actually), regens and costs are out of hand, it is possible to build sustain setups now that do respectable enough damage to be truly dangerous as well as extremely hard to kill, and 1 second TTK damage output is still a very real thing for stam builds in general. With nightblades, and the current way cloak/stealth works, this becomes arbitrary as now you have 100 percent initiative as well as escape/reposition/reset available. The last thing stamina builds needed in 1.5/1.6 was a buff. If anything, some of the stam abilities needed nerfs.

Point 5: Physical damage, the bread and butter of stamblades, is completely out of control, whereas most kinds of magicka damage have too many counters right now.

Reason: The champion system is the real culprit here. This ties in with other physical damage problems (such as steel tornado). Stack stam, stam recovery, weapon damage, kill virtually anything, use your 10-12k magicka to reset the fight if need be. And the main reason is works is because blocking isnt as viable as it once was (stam cost), physical damage isnt mitigated in enough places (champion system, railroad into heavy armor builds, etc), fear breaking block anyway, armor penetration still being laughably easy to max out (seriously with sharpened weapons, some champs, and the right skills penetrating 20k armor is still completely possible), and the ability to have both high damage and high sustain due to loss of softcaps no longer being a limiter.



This has gotten too long, i had more to say, but we will leave this here for now, chew on it a bit.

OdinForge

Rylana wrote: »

Point 4: Stam damage, cost, scaling needs to be reverted back to how it was about six months ago.

Reason: The whole one pool argument for all abilities/heals/mitigations is a fallacy, and has been for a long long time. Damage is based on your total pool, not your remaining (which is a problem in and of itself actually), regens and costs are out of hand, it is possible to build sustain setups now that do respectable enough damage to be truly dangerous as well as extremely hard to kill, and 1 second TTK damage output is still a very real thing for stam builds in general. With nightblades, and the current way cloak/stealth works, this becomes arbitrary as now you have 100 percent initiative as well as escape/reposition/reset available. The last thing stamina builds needed in 1.5/1.6 was a buff. If anything, some of the stam abilities needed nerfs.

I disagree with almost everything you say in post #140, but this one quoted stuck out to me so I'll discuss this point a bit.

regens and costs are out of hand, it is possible to build sustain setups now that do respectable enough damage to be truly dangerous as well

Prior to 1.6 it was possible for each class to make a magicka build (or a few builds, depending on small variations and goal) that had damage, sustain and defense largely thanks to things like block, impen and damage shields. The only difference being that resource management was more pronounced, you had to pay more attention to what you were doing. However the game was also a lot more simple back then (less variety in builds and gear, and similar tactics with mechanics for every magicka based class). You needed to shield and heal at the right times, resource manage at the right times, and DPS a bit at the right times, not just face fist your DPS button and healing/shielding buttons.

1.6 just made it easier to do this, but at the same time it also opened up the doors for more variety as well. Prior to 1.6 this resource management game wasn't equal between stam and mag builds, heavily favoring magicka builds.

The last thing stamina builds needed in 1.5

Stamina builds definitely needed buffs, 1.5 was however the best patch for stamina builds prior to 1.6 release. The biggest problems with stamina builds prior to 1.6 was the lack of variety and options. As someone who played heavily with stam builds (not just using a bow to gank people) I remember the lack of variety and options. I used to run 7 medium Resto/DW stam build, for healing ward & mutagen with flying blade as my DPS spam. My sustain came from siphoning attacks (toggle on both bars, reducing damage) and heavy attacks etc. Such a *** and glued together setup compared to what was possible with magicka builds, even though I made it work quite well. Resto gave me a decent shield back then and a good cheap HoT, and DW gave me ranged DPS and a way to protect myself from melee damage. But sparks from DW meant you couldn't do this with 1H or 2H, because DK would eat you alive with whips, and NB with SA/CW and Temp with jabs.

I experimented with the same setup, higher regen (air + drink) using master sword and rally off-hand, decent sustain but not killing anyone worth a damn. Stamina builds were being experimented on by exceptional players before 1.6, but they didn't come to fruition until after 1.6. The only real use of stam builds prior to 1.6 in pvp was by gankers, who even performed decent in groups with snipe or early days of steel tornado spam.

Here is a video of Blade Boques on a back then "stam build" (with a similar style to my old stam build) fighting Arax with magicka. To be honest he could have won this by running sparks to negate Arax's main DPS, using flying blade for more guaranteed damage and by using more heavy attacks. But it plays into what I said earlier, stam builds were held together by tape and you really only had one option as a stam build back then. To this day the only stam build ever, prior to 1.6 to contest mine at all was Velconn..prior to 1.6 there was no variety, not in the way we have now.

Just because my examples are 1v1, doesn't mean I'm implying the game should be balanced around solely 1v1. *edit although with battlegrounds and arenas coming out, 1v1 or smaller than open world game-play balance is important too


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H08lDcPEc10

Here is mine before adding sparks and a few other changes.

https://youtu.be/XCbOgRSGbsM?t=8m51s

Tl;Dr: No variety before 1.6, just one build that shuts out others. Response is kinda off-topic anyway.

KenaPKK

I don't see how this is still a debate.

Stamblades can hardly cloak before running out of magicka, and every cloak they use while trying to heal is one less fear or shade that they can use. That is a HUGE deal.

Mageblades can cloak indefinitely, but engaging in multiple cloaks in combat resets the fight. I only ever use cloak as a purge on my mageblade, and even then, it feels awkward to use it in a fight because I interrupt my rotations and drop all pressure on my opponent. Cloak stays on my back bar on both my magicka and stamina builds, and I often cancel them early to keep pressure up. My mageblade's primary defensive mechanics are block, HoTs, fear, and shade repositions. My stamblade's primary defensive mechanics are roll dodge, line of sight, Major Evasion + sprint speed, and straight up agression. Cloak is barely even in the equation.

Cloak is useful for positioning to gank or get the jump on someone, but if you're dying to ganks, you're either misplaying or built incorrectly. I amuse myself by baiting groups of 3+ to gank me just so I can turn the fights..

Cloak is not an escape. You will literally NEVER escape a seasoned player by using just cloak. You guys keep comparing cloak to streak, but cloak is NOT analogous to streak. Cloak is analogous to sorcs' hardened ward as a stationary defensive mechanic to prevent damage, but cloak is VASTLY INFERIOR to hardened ward. Shade is nightblades' streak -- i.e. their mobile escape -- and shade is VASTLY INFERIOR to streak even after the streak nerfs.

Let us cast shade without a target AND poof all the way back to it at unlimited range (shade is 100% not sneaky, and god that range is short as ***), and I'll be ok with an increasing cost on consecutive cloaks. Keep in mind when responding to these Shade suggestions that nightblades would still have to cast it at their current location then run away from it to make use of it.

Cloak is one of the most frustrating abilities in the game to play against if you don't know what you're doing. However, it's also one of the best to test your progress against because you see immediate and dramatic results in fights as you learn to counter it.

Stop reacting to frustrations you encounter while playing against cloak with demands to nerf the skill. Instead, embrace them as opportunities to advance your own skill.

You've got myself, Lone, and other well known authorities on nightblades and the game in general chiming in here to educate you on this subject. Stop making excuses and irrational arguments in attempts to dumb the game down. Grow some balls, equip an aoe, make some detect pots if you have to, and git gud already.

Vangy

Seriously this thread with all these white knight nbs telling everyone to l2p is the biggest bowl of bull crap I've ever read.

Bad nbs will get pwnt with or without detect pots. These are the idiots that try to cloak in ur face and pray to get away. The good ones will fear your face, dodge roll LOS then spam cloak. No chance for u to find them. Thyre in stealth happily spamming vigor and healing back to full while ur busy going aaaaah trying to break free from fear. (Yes I think vigor should not heal in stealth or at least pop you out of cloak). Also as for detect pots seriously? That only works if ur hunting the nb. If they are the one who get the jump on you ( which is 90% likely cos most of the nbs are camping ganking scum), when they hit u ur down to 40%/- life. U need to hit an immovabiltiy/health pot off the bat for the fight. So let's say in 10 or so seconds (pots have a 40+ second cd btw) the nb realises he's losing all he needs to do is the above and he just basically reset the fight and come at u with a stealth burst again. And for all you who think magicka nb isn't capable of sick damage burst try a properly decked out mageblade who drops in with proxy det, batswarm/deathstroke and concealed weapon. Ur gona be down to execute range in a second or so especially if he pops fear like any good nb should. So yea. Cloak needs to be tweaked down a little. It's the one ability in the game that in combination with all of the other nightblade skills and Passives, is absurdly synergistic and needs to be looked at.

And I've killed tons of nbs so no need to tell me to L2P.

Lord-Otto

@OdinForge
No, I think you're wrong, man.

Detect potions last 15 seconds with a cooldown of 45 secs. In those tiny 15 secs you have to find the Nightblade and kill it, because you can't re-apply for a very long time and we know how nightblades rule fights with cloak. Now, finding that NB can be time-wasting and hard, as they usually reduce your detect radius with passives. So you have to get in very close to see them. You better crouch while doing so, as otherwise they will get the drop on you. Often I find myself wasting the d-pot just SEARCHING for the NB. And even if you find them somewhat fast... you ain't gonna kill it in time if you're Templar or DK. I guess even Sorcs can have a hard time here. Nightblades with their burst, of course, can. Nightblades are very good at countering other NBs, this is why you usually argument like that. It is an entirely different story for the other classes.

revonine

Tbh I do not understand why they nerfed detect pots. They were 100% fine the way they were. This coming in with conjunction with IC which was gankers paradise really p*ssed people off and really dialed up the NB QQ to 11.

TheBonesXXX

Biggest problem I've read here is some do not know how to think like a Nightblade, which requires you to play one, when you learn how to move like a Nightblade and think like the class, then you can use the counters and you will deny them stealth 100% of the time.


/thread

Vangy

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Biggest problem I've read here is some do not know how to think like a Nightblade, which requires you to play one, when you learn how to move like a Nightblade and think like the class, then you can use the counters and you will deny them stealth 100% of the time.


/thread

Please do tell how to counter while reading my previous post and addressing the points I made. Because right now ur post is just fluff with 0 substantial points being made to this discussion.

TheBonesXXX

Vangy wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Biggest problem I've read here is some do not know how to think like a Nightblade, which requires you to play one, when you learn how to move like a Nightblade and think like the class, then you can use the counters and you will deny them stealth 100% of the time.


/thread

Please do tell how to counter while reading my previous post and addressing the points I made. Because right now ur post is just fluff with 0 substantial points being made to this discussion.

People have a low Fight IQ, that's the issue. It goes for any class, I'm not reading any of your "points" because you made none, you repeated one out of many scenarios, but you emphasize the one in which you lose. Which every cryhard does for every class on these forums.

Healing is immense this patch, run a defile. Can't catch a mobility build? Run bloody snares.

Lack of a fight IQ is 90% of the bloody problem on these forums.

Vangy

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Biggest problem I've read here is some do not know how to think like a Nightblade, which requires you to play one, when you learn how to move like a Nightblade and think like the class, then you can use the counters and you will deny them stealth 100% of the time.


/thread

Please do tell how to counter while reading my previous post and addressing the points I made. Because right now ur post is just fluff with 0 substantial points being made to this discussion.

People have a low Fight IQ, that's the issue. It goes for any class, I'm not reading any of your "points" because you made none, you repeated one out of many scenarios, but you emphasize the one in which you lose. Which every cryhard does for every class on these forums.

Healing is immense this patch, run a defile. Can't catch a mobility build? Run bloody snares.

Lack of a fight IQ is 90% of the bloody problem on these forums.

Well if ur not going to read my points I'm going to ignore your Wah Wah I'm a big boy and everyone but me needs to l2p reverse whining.

Also fear has no counter play because it can't be blocked. Same with dk talons. All you can do is break free (or dodge roll with the talons). By that time the nb has alr dodge rolled and has Los when he pops cloak. Ur healing defile or snare has done jack all to him because he's alr happily running 30m away in stealth. All the fight iq (or whatever it is you are referring to) isn't going to save u from something that has no counter play.

OdinForge

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@OdinForge
No, I think you're wrong, man.

Detect potions last 15 seconds with a cooldown of 45 secs. In those tiny 15 secs you have to find the Nightblade and kill it, because you can't re-apply for a very long time and we know how nightblades rule fights with cloak. Now, finding that NB can be time-wasting and hard, as they usually reduce your detect radius with passives. So you have to get in very close to see them. You better crouch while doing so, as otherwise they will get the drop on you. Often I find myself wasting the d-pot just SEARCHING for the NB. And even if you find them somewhat fast... you ain't gonna kill it in time if you're Templar or DK. I guess even Sorcs can have a hard time here. Nightblades with their burst, of course, can. Nightblades are very good at countering other NBs, this is why you usually argument like that. It is an entirely different story for the other classes.

If a good NB is going to hide from you, he is gonna hide. You cannot do anything about that, just move on.

If a NB is going to fight you, you pop the detect pot when his HP gets low and you go for the kill. A NB cannot attack you from 100% HP -> 0% HP while in cloak (unless you're geared like a potato, but then you should be working on your build not on the forum bitching), at most he can use 2 skills and 1 basic attack. If you know how to play the game yourself, a NB isn't going to be able to cheese you with cloak, and will have to spend considerable time outside of it to burst your HP down. Seriously dude, I stand by my point, L2P.

I spend 95% of all my fights against any class not cloaked, you're bitching about baby mechanics that hurt baby players. Read all my statements in bold before coming back at me, your issues lie in your builds and approach.

TheBonesXXX

Vangy wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Biggest problem I've read here is some do not know how to think like a Nightblade, which requires you to play one, when you learn how to move like a Nightblade and think like the class, then you can use the counters and you will deny them stealth 100% of the time.


/thread

Please do tell how to counter while reading my previous post and addressing the points I made. Because right now ur post is just fluff with 0 substantial points being made to this discussion.

People have a low Fight IQ, that's the issue. It goes for any class, I'm not reading any of your "points" because you made none, you repeated one out of many scenarios, but you emphasize the one in which you lose. Which every cryhard does for every class on these forums.

Healing is immense this patch, run a defile. Can't catch a mobility build? Run bloody snares.

Lack of a fight IQ is 90% of the bloody problem on these forums.

Well if ur not going to read my points I'm going to ignore your Wah Wah I'm a big boy and everyone but me needs to l2p reverse whining.

Also fear has no counter play because it can't be blocked. Same with dk talons. All you can do is break free (or dodge roll with the talons). By that time the nb has alr dodge rolled and has Los when he pops cloak. Ur healing defile or snare has done jack all to him because he's alr happily running 30m away in stealth. All the fight iq (or whatever it is you are referring to) isn't going to save u from something that has no counter play.

Blessed Thistle, Columbine, and Namira's Rot.