"Nerf cloak" ... But it's stamblade damage that is op ... (explanation)

melodeath

seeing as this forum is clustered with people that complain about builds that counter theirs than id like to have a nerf on flare/caltrops/shields/heavy armor/magelight/detect pots etc etc

because.../instert reason.

eliisra

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

oh look another butt hurt player getting killed by nightblade... how will zenimax fix the rouge/assasin class that has high crit n can run away just like every other rouge out there >,> pffff....

And DK's are suppose to be unbeatable dragons, if we go stick to lore or some made up archetype

Besides, in-combat cloak has cooldowns and counters in any other MMORPG. Only in ESO(as far as I know) where the rouge/assassin class can spam Cloak and "crit n can run away" whenever they feel like it. In other games you have to wait for cloak cooldown, before you can disappear again while in combat.

Forestd16b14_ESO

HA magical NBs are not the problem and not OP. This thread is just as silly as those "shield breaker is OP" threads shield stackers are consistently posting.

KenaPKK

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

HA magical NBs are not the problem and not OP. This thread is just as silly as those "shield breaker is OP" threads shield stackers are consistently posting.

Uh, that would be my point, yes. People complain about Nightblades and call for cloak nerfs, but a nerf to cloak would only affect magicka NBs, who are not a problem in PvP at all.

Reading comprehension is hard, it's ok.

melodeath wrote: »

seeing as this forum is clustered with people that complain about builds that counter theirs than id like to have a nerf on flare/caltrops/shields/heavy armor/magelight/detect pots etc etc

because.../instert reason.

Yo, light attacks are op man! Don't forget those.

CyrusArya

Force-Siphon wrote: »

I think across the board it should be tuned down to balance with magicka.

Stamina does more damage, as it should. Stamina builds are more vulnerable with less utility than magicka builds. Magicka NBs and Sorcs can dish out incredible dps while at range. Magicka Templar can heal thru all the damage. Stamina builds are forced to fight in close quarters, and so the higher damage is justified. If you're having trouble killing people and surviving as a sorc (lol), you're doing it wrong.

If magicka and stamina damage is 'tuned' to be equal, then magicka builds will be superior on virtually every count. Thats not balance.

Master_Kas

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Yeah nerfing cloak is not the answer to the issues that people have been having. Nerfing cloak will continue putting magicka play styles in the trash bin outside of Sorc when in fact stamina play styles should be brought in line. One change I could see is make stam heals break cloak like mag heals do if cloak is such an issue from stamblades...but the reality is that surprise attack needs to be tuned clearly....I have seen higher numbers from SA than WB in fights at times. I don't think it's an issue exclusive to NBs tho, clearly stamina in a lot of ways is king play style now. I think across the board it should be tuned down to balance with magicka. I'm not for blanket knee-jerk nerfs, but tuning needs to happen. What I see happening though is that like Sorc and dk, nb is going to get the Nerfs next and we will have new balance issues.

And 1 shot builds are not exclusive to NB these days... Seen quite a few bow using DKs trying to do this too lately...name a mag class that can create a 1 shot build it's not gonna happen...and the sad part is that zenimax tried to do away with 1 shotting with damage reduction lol. Yes magicka has more utility, but ppl who play mag also need to kill people and not be 1 shot.

Only reason instagib builds work now is because they are using camouflaged hunter on vampires or people with very low health/migation. If camo hunter (the morph with 100% chance for extra damage vs vamps from stealth) worked with magicka skills you could see similar results.

_Proteus_

Then they should just fix camo hunter, because let's face it, a single skill that can hard counter an entire skill-line is just unbalanced. Also one shots should be discouraged more. Just imagine if they gave everyone in cyrodiil an extra 10k hp instead of 5k hp. If that did happen, then the average HP would be 25k and one shots would be much rarer.

KenaPKK

You should always be speccing above 20-22k health in Cyrodiil by using gear and attribute points anyway... There are plenty of sources of health in the game if you take a little initiative.

Edit: if you're not a sorc, that is

Cathexis

I have no issue with nightblade damage.

It's a bit high. Could probably come down a bit.

Mostly it actually has to do with an exploit involving teleport strike and animation clipping.

Cloak is the bigger problem as its an instant escape through mobs, allows for full healing and controlling intervals of engaging in combat, and can be used to evade entire groups indefinitely.

You've got this backward. The issue with cloak has nothing to do with damage.

KenaPKK

But that's pretty much the core of the nightblade identity. Use the provided counters, and you're fine. Don't use the provided counters, and a magicka NB will control the fight via cloak. It's in your hands here.

eliisra

_Proteus_ wrote: »

Then they should just fix camo hunter, because let's face it, a single skill that can hard counter an entire skill-line is just unbalanced. Also one shots should be discouraged more. Just imagine if they gave everyone in cyrodiil an extra 10k hp instead of 5k hp. If that did happen, then the average HP would be 25k and one shots would be much rarer.

Right now you need around 40k health to not be instakilled by Camo Hunter sneak attacks as a vamp lol.That's how broken it is. Might need even more if the ganker has a lot of CP, I've seen a 46k health emperor vamp get instagibbed.

So adding 10k more health from battle leveling makes no difference. Non vamps aren't instakilled by NB's (or any other ganker)to begin with, unless extremely low stats. Vampires have no chance either way, not even being the emp will save you.

Anyway, totally not the topic. Please continue arguing about NB, whether magblade or stamblade is the master race.

Cathexis

KenaPKK wrote: »

But that's pretty much the core of the nightblade identity. Use the provided counters, and you're fine. Don't use the provided counters, and a magicka NB will control the fight via cloak. It's in your hands here.

I run 8 counters and none provide a distinct advantage so that just isn't true.

Ara_Valleria

Cathexis wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

But that's pretty much the core of the nightblade identity. Use the provided counters, and you're fine. Don't use the provided counters, and a magicka NB will control the fight via cloak. It's in your hands here.

I run 8 counters and none provide a distinct advantage so that just isn't true.

If you are running 8 counters and cant have a "distinct advantage" then you clearly need to L2p.
Like seriously, aren't you even a bit ashamed to say that you cant counter a cloaking nb with your 8 counters AND running in a group of 5 or more (as you mentioned in another thread) ?

KenaPKK

Jitterbug wrote: »

IF they went ahead with some sort of nerf for Cloak, what would it be, and how hard would we really be hit by it?

If for example it got the Streak treatment, how F'ed would we be, in you guys' expert opinions?

CP5 wrote: »

Well if people can still complain about sorc's bolt escaping after all the nerfs it got i'm sure one nerf wouldn't be the end of days for nightblades everywhere.

Bolt Escape is 100% reliable. When you hit the button, you dash. Cloak is not reliable. Sometimes, it just fails and the mere presence of a nearby enemy pulls you out of it. Also, there are tons of counters to the invisibility, but when a sorc dashes, he dashes and gains distance 100%. When Cloak fails, it requires spamming. It really does. (Go play NB in PvP.)

Applying the Bolt Escape / dodge roll nerf to Cloak would completely kill magicka Nightblade while literally not affecting stamina Nightblade at all.

Enjoy having every NB in the game respec to stamina.

KenaPKK

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

IF they went ahead with some sort of nerf for Cloak, what would it be, and how hard would we really be hit by it?

If for example it got the Streak treatment, how F'ed would we be, in you guys' expert opinions?

It won't make any difference. Good players will adapt poor player will continue being cannon fodder. Average players will be worse off, but .. meh!

Uh. That would be a negative difference, meaning it does matter and shouldn't happen.

Docmandu

You know something is OP if the players of that class start making new posts about how NOT OP something is!

ku5h

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just because your build doesn't use cloak to its highest utility does not discredit the claims of others' about the move.

Example: just because my build can't abuse WB it does not mean WB is not abused

Edit: another example: not all sorcs stacked shields, but all shields still got the 50% nerf.

When did shields got 50%nerf? If you refering to flat 50% nerf to heal, dmg, and ofc shields, what did you expect? Everyone doing 50% less dmg, and less heal, but your shields are still the same? I lol on things sorc consider nerfs....

twistedmonk

craigvigneaultub17_ESO wrote: »

Also remember 95% of Stam nb are glass cannon and super easy to kill if you detect them. Just remember this isn't a 1v1 game and most imbalances can be overcome with skill and a proper build. -Aenlir

yup - what you are advocating is all the stamina nightblades get together in a big zerg ball and spam steel tornado...

check...they are already doing it...

Kas

the lack of a CP passive to reduce physical damage really is a huge thing. it will get even more obvious once more peopel hit 501 and especially once the cap is raised a little. very few players have maxed hardy yet (especially, but certainly not exclusively those who also want bastion or the block one). if everybody had enough cp for 100hardy 100ele, 100thick skinned + whatever they want in the first place, there would be even more stambaldes everywhere.

cloak and fear are incredibly good skills and the perfect magicka dumps for stamina classes. stamin in general is the big damage in pvp.

albeit, magicka detonation is very nice for groups that want to take out huge amounts of (low-cp) enemies. if everyone had 100hardy 100thick (nto sure if true but somebody told me prox det was counted as dot for some weird reason), they migh as well just try to synchronize their steel tornados.

just why is it like this? tehre are offensive champion system tings for magic and physical, there are resistence (char sheet armor value) ones for both. yet, there is a -damage one for almost everything but physical stuff.

this is really flawed and the symptom is that, in the long run, a "balance" can only achieve one thing: magicka builds dominate pve dps whereas stamina dominates pvp.

Darnathian

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Instead of nerfing Nightblades they just need to improve game systems and resolve some core weaknesses in the Templar and DK classes. I'm very happy that finally nightblade has come together like it currently is. The class finally feels more or less like what it should have early on. There are a few abilities I miss, like haste, but otherwise I'm really happy with it.

Of course you are. I would be too. Lol. NBs and Sorcs are gods amongst men. I agree with leave them as is and buff templars (for once) and dk's.

Also make detect pots 30 seconds. Not the 45 before but not this rediculous 15 seconds. It makes zero sense if you do a blanket 50% damage nerf because you want fights toast longer but then only give a 15 second window to try to bring down a class that is going full damage. You are on the defensive for at least the first 10 seconds while these FOTM cheese build kiddies blow their loads. Then your detect pot is on cool down so they just hide until their resources are back and come out of stealth buffed and REKT face. So dumb

Darnathian

Kas wrote: »

the lack of a CP passive to reduce physical damage really is a huge thing. it will get even more obvious once more peopel hit 501 and especially once the cap is raised a little. very few players have maxed hardy yet (especially, but certainly not exclusively those who also want bastion or the block one). if everybody had enough cp for 100hardy 100ele, 100thick skinned + whatever they want in the first place, there would be even more stambaldes everywhere.

cloak and fear are incredibly good skills and the perfect magicka dumps for stamina classes. stamin in general is the big damage in pvp.

albeit, magicka detonation is very nice for groups that want to take out huge amounts of (low-cp) enemies. if everyone had 100hardy 100thick (nto sure if true but somebody told me prox det was counted as dot for some weird reason), they migh as well just try to synchronize their steel tornados.

just why is it like this? tehre are offensive champion system tings for magic and physical, there are resistence (char sheet armor value) ones for both. yet, there is a -damage one for almost everything but physical stuff.

this is really flawed and the symptom is that, in the long run, a "balance" can only achieve one thing: magicka builds dominate pve dps whereas stamina dominates pvp.

Yup. This will only get worse. They need to do a no cp server. Watch that be pop locked all day.

Cathexis

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

But that's pretty much the core of the nightblade identity. Use the provided counters, and you're fine. Don't use the provided counters, and a magicka NB will control the fight via cloak. It's in your hands here.

I run 8 counters and none provide a distinct advantage so that just isn't true.

If you are running 8 counters and cant have a "distinct advantage" then you clearly need to L2p.
Like seriously, aren't you even a bit ashamed to say that you cant counter a cloaking nb with your 8 counters AND running in a group of 5 or more (as you mentioned in another thread) ?

I counter nightblades all the time. That's why I run 8 counters.

No I'm not ashamed to say that some nightblades get away.
Some have figured out how to abuse cloak such that they are able to avoid all damage indefinitely. That shouldn't be possible.

Countering nightblades is not the problem. The problem is that countering them often has little impact on their capacity to permanently evade damage, that many nightblades can still evade players in spite of cloak counter spam, and that cloak is a get out of jail free card whenever their are mobs around. This is definitely not a L2P issue -- I play with many of the best players on my campaign.

Cody

No point in fighting it friend. People on here(even the elites like Ezareth who should know better:( and no ZOS I am not shaming him, simply expressing my disappointment, no need to delete this comment over it, no insult of any kind has been used) have chosen cloak as the new ability to be tossed on the hate wagon. I promise that it will not be the last.

If you are a stamblade, another way to survive is....... hmm..... someone else told me shadow image will work; of course, the reality of the situation disproves that, but by all means try it; if it works give me a holler and I will try it yet again. Maybe it can make up for the stam blades lack of a good damage shield and an easily negatable HoT heal(it is easily negatable, no point in using it in a fight with someone), bah, im rambling again. Anyway, accept the opinion of the masses and find some other tactic. If you do message it to me and we can try it out. I myself have switched to the DK; as manablades bore me(yet a mana DK is fun for me, weird I know, lol) so I will not be experimenting for new builds. I have adapted my NB to nerfs and changes far to much at this point, and I am sick of it. Good luck to you:)

Cody

CP5 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

A nerf to cloak will NOT change nightblades' dominance in PvP because STAMINA nightblades are the problem, NOT magicka ones.

It may tho. StamBlades use Cloak as a reset, to recover after a failed attack. We don't have the mitagation, sheilds, or heals, to go toe to toe for a prolonged fight like other Builds. A nerf to Cloak will reduce the already limited amount of times a StamBlade can cast Cloak. MageBlades may still be able to spam it, especially if the Nerf is a %Magicka Regen reduction while stealthed or something.

PS

The course of events leading to this irrational witch hunting goes as follows:

This is painfully accurate. I got a good LOL.^

Please elaborate on that one. I see it thrown around a lot and want someone else to give me their opinion on that bit of info. As for the heals, nb's are well equipped to do 2 things, quickly burst targets down or outlast them, prolonged fights are what nb's make when they cloak.

Refer to this post of yours for a clear picture,

CP5 wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

Is this post for real or is th OP just a troll? Either way I got a good laugh out of the BS he wrote up. Haha.

It was mentioned that the change may happen. No timeframe was given, no direction the 'nerf' would go, and it didn't even seem they would go through with it.

Jitterbug wrote: »

IF they went ahead with some sort of nerf for Cloak, what would it be, and how hard would we really be hit by it?

If for example it got the Streak treatment, how F'ed would we be, in you guys' expert opinions?

Well if people can still complain about sorc's bolt escaping after all the nerfs it got i'm sure one nerf wouldn't be the end of days for nightblades everywhere.

"Nbs are built for two things, bursts and outlasting the enemy" "outlasting the enemy" well, lets go over that by analyzing a part in your post that I find interesting.

"Nightblades everywhere" This is the issue. You and everyone else I see complaining about cloak think that every NB can spam it and that every NB would be fine without it. This is not the case. A manablade can spam it, sure. and i highly doubt a nerf to cloak would affect a manablade very much, and a mana blade still has acess to the resto staff, which can help them survive. but a stamblade?

A stamblade has no such luxury with a resto staff. A stamblade has no good damage shield unless they invest heavily in health for the undaunted shield. the only real self heal(strife is not a good self heal, do not even try to make it out like it is) a stamblade has is vigor, an HoT that is easily negatable in a fight. and no, shadow image is not a good survival ability. when it works, its great, but its far to situational and inconsistent to be a reliable survival ability. Its more along the lines of kiting; and it does this NOWHERE near as well as bolt Escape, which you compared it to earlier. It drags you to a fixed position, meaning if you get gap closed while in use it becomes useless.

So, how do you propose a stamblade survive once cloak gets nerfed? Fear spam? a stamblade can use fear maybe 3 times total if no other magicka ability is used, maybe more if they use racials and sets to get a bit more mana/reduction; , but still far below spammable levels. Twisting path? gap closers beat it. Strife? Do we need to have that discussion? I hope not. Leeching strikes? Ok, go ahead and try to use a 2% heal per strike to sustain yourself. Let me know if you manage to make it work. I'm serious, if you can actually make it work healing wise let me know; I will be interested to hear the results. resto staff? If you can make a resto staff work with a stamina build, do let me know. Again, awaiting results. Let's see what else.... there is the useless Agony....... you see my point?

I'm sure none of that wall of text resonated with anyone here; it matters not. Once stamblades have no survivalbility and become utterly useless, the truth will become clear.

And No, I am not butthurt, I just prefer to type more than 5 sentences in a response. i've said enough, its time I stopped complaining. hopefully the nerf will not render stamblades almost defensless. goodnight.

Barlthump

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I also think what a lot of people are feeling with magicka nightblades is the "perma" cloak.

A Stam blade can also kill you in 2 sec. Have yet to see a magicka night blade do that this patch. [/quote]

Haha yeah I can kill u in 2 secs. You're prolly a vampire wearing all light armour with 14k hp. You wanna play a glass cannon build? Then lie down and give me AP.

JDar

Cathexis wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

But that's pretty much the core of the nightblade identity. Use the provided counters, and you're fine. Don't use the provided counters, and a magicka NB will control the fight via cloak. It's in your hands here.

I run 8 counters and none provide a distinct advantage so that just isn't true.

If you are running 8 counters and cant have a "distinct advantage" then you clearly need to L2p.
Like seriously, aren't you even a bit ashamed to say that you cant counter a cloaking nb with your 8 counters AND running in a group of 5 or more (as you mentioned in another thread) ?

I counter nightblades all the time. That's why I run 8 counters.

No I'm not ashamed to say that some nightblades get away.
Some have figured out how to abuse cloak such that they are able to avoid all damage indefinitely. That shouldn't be possible.

Countering nightblades is not the problem. The problem is that countering them often has little impact on their capacity to permanently evade damage, that many nightblades can still evade players in spite of cloak counter spam, and that cloak is a get out of jail free card whenever their are mobs around. This is definitely not a L2P issue -- I play with many of the best players on my campaign.

Are you paying someone to agree with your posts? You cannot avoid damage indefinitely while in cloak. You can still take damage. Why do you care if one of them gets away too? Why is that an injustice? You have eight counters and you can't play through this? How?

It sounds like you just don't want nightblades to exist and you think everyone should have the same build so you don't have to deal with an enemy that fights differently than you do.

JDar

Cody wrote: »

No point in fighting it friend. People on here(even the elites like Ezareth who should know better:( and no ZOS I am not shaming him, simply expressing my disappointment, no need to delete this comment over it, no insult of any kind has been used) have chosen cloak as the new ability to be tossed on the hate wagon. I promise that it will not be the last.

If you are a stamblade, another way to survive is....... hmm..... someone else told me shadow image will work; of course, the reality of the situation disproves that, but by all means try it; if it works give me a holler and I will try it yet again. Maybe it can make up for the stam blades lack of a good damage shield and an easily negatable HoT heal(it is easily negatable, no point in using it in a fight with someone), bah, im rambling again. Anyway, accept the opinion of the masses and find some other tactic. If you do message it to me and we can try it out. I myself have switched to the DK; as manablades bore me(yet a mana DK is fun for me, weird I know, lol) so I will not be experimenting for new builds. I have adapted my NB to nerfs and changes far to much at this point, and I am sick of it. Good luck to you:)

Who said Ezareth is an elite?

Docmandu

Cody wrote: »

If you are a stamblade, another way to survive is.......

Cripple

Lava_Croft

Cody wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

A nerf to cloak will NOT change nightblades' dominance in PvP because STAMINA nightblades are the problem, NOT magicka ones.

It may tho. StamBlades use Cloak as a reset, to recover after a failed attack. We don't have the mitagation, sheilds, or heals, to go toe to toe for a prolonged fight like other Builds. A nerf to Cloak will reduce the already limited amount of times a StamBlade can cast Cloak. MageBlades may still be able to spam it, especially if the Nerf is a %Magicka Regen reduction while stealthed or something.

PS

The course of events leading to this irrational witch hunting goes as follows:

This is painfully accurate. I got a good LOL.^

Please elaborate on that one. I see it thrown around a lot and want someone else to give me their opinion on that bit of info. As for the heals, nb's are well equipped to do 2 things, quickly burst targets down or outlast them, prolonged fights are what nb's make when they cloak.

Refer to this post of yours for a clear picture,

CP5 wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

Is this post for real or is th OP just a troll? Either way I got a good laugh out of the BS he wrote up. Haha.

It was mentioned that the change may happen. No timeframe was given, no direction the 'nerf' would go, and it didn't even seem they would go through with it.

Jitterbug wrote: »

IF they went ahead with some sort of nerf for Cloak, what would it be, and how hard would we really be hit by it?

If for example it got the Streak treatment, how F'ed would we be, in you guys' expert opinions?

Well if people can still complain about sorc's bolt escaping after all the nerfs it got i'm sure one nerf wouldn't be the end of days for nightblades everywhere.

"Nbs are built for two things, bursts and outlasting the enemy" "outlasting the enemy" well, lets go over that by analyzing a part in your post that I find interesting.

"Nightblades everywhere" This is the issue. You and everyone else I see complaining about cloak think that every NB can spam it and that every NB would be fine without it. This is not the case. A manablade can spam it, sure. and i highly doubt a nerf to cloak would affect a manablade very much, and a mana blade still has acess to the resto staff, which can help them survive. but a stamblade?

A stamblade has no such luxury with a resto staff. A stamblade has no good damage shield unless they invest heavily in health for the undaunted shield. the only real self heal(strife is not a good self heal, do not even try to make it out like it is) a stamblade has is vigor, an HoT that is easily negatable in a fight. and no, shadow image is not a good survival ability. when it works, its great, but its far to situational and inconsistent to be a reliable survival ability. Its more along the lines of kiting; and it does this NOWHERE near as well as bolt Escape, which you compared it to earlier. It drags you to a fixed position, meaning if you get gap closed while in use it becomes useless.

So, how do you propose a stamblade survive once cloak gets nerfed? Fear spam? a stamblade can use fear maybe 3 times total if no other magicka ability is used, maybe more if they use racials and sets to get a bit more mana/reduction; , but still far below spammable levels. Twisting path? gap closers beat it. Strife? Do we need to have that discussion? I hope not. Leeching strikes? Ok, go ahead and try to use a 2% heal per strike to sustain yourself. Let me know if you manage to make it work. I'm serious, if you can actually make it work healing wise let me know; I will be interested to hear the results. resto staff? If you can make a resto staff work with a stamina build, do let me know. Again, awaiting results. Let's see what else.... there is the useless Agony....... you see my point?

I'm sure none of that wall of text resonated with anyone here; it matters not. Once stamblades have no survivalbility and become utterly useless, the truth will become clear.

And No, I am not butthurt, I just prefer to type more than 5 sentences in a response. i've said enough, its time I stopped complaining. hopefully the nerf will not render stamblades almost defensless. goodnight.

Try Rally + Vigor for awesome healing that doesn't require a near-useless Resto staff.

Docmandu

Cody wrote: »

"Nightblades everywhere" This is the issue. You and everyone else I see complaining about cloak think that every NB can spam it and that every NB would be fine without it.

I'm getting flashbacks from when sorcs were saying the exact same thing about Bolt Escape...