Suggestion to nerf Stealth Openers

Truewan

Well it's short and simple... but effective to balance PvP - any attack or ability you initiate automatically brings you out of stealth, regardless if it hit the target or not.

lolo_01b16_ESO

So if casting a damage shield would remove stealth this would balance pvp? I don't think so.
All attacks allready remove stealth, so it's only some shields and self buffs that would be changed.

Truewan

Someone can use the ability lethal arrow twice without having stealth broken, there are plenty of abilities and skills (including all my templar and weapon/armor skills that do no damage) that break stealth.

It's imperative for pvp balance that the moment you execute a damaging ability, your stealth should also break.

Snit

Truewan wrote: »

It's imperative...

'Imperative' is a bit of an overstatement.

There are ways to avoid most deaths from snipers, from changing up what's on your bar to how you move around in Cyrodiil. Few builds can become entirely immune from sneaky-sorts with a bow, but you don't have to be a pincushion, either. Every class can do this.

DeanTheCat

This little ball of light will protect you from stealth attacks as well as aid you in tracking and hunting down stealthers.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Magelight

Radiant Magelight

• Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by [x]
• The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
• While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%.
• Reveals hidden enemies and nearby allies take less damage from stealth attacks.

SOLDIER_1stClass

DeanTheCat wrote: »

This little ball of light will protect you from stealth attacks as well as aid you in tracking and hunting down stealthers.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Magelight

Radiant Magelight

• Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by [x]
• The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
• While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%.
• Reveals hidden enemies and nearby allies take less damage from stealth attacks.

This!

So no, any attack or skill should not break stealth.

Everyone has a role to play in PvP. When we go out we have our tanks, healers, DPS/Ranged DPS, CCusers, and mage light users and stealth class to pick of the strays. Just because you do not have a class built around stealth or to find those in stealth does not mean it needs to be gimped.

Stealth is fine as it is

BrassRazoo

Just increase the cost of all stealth ability casts exponentially just like Sorcerers BoL / Streak.

SOLDIER_1stClass

BrassRazoo wrote: »

Just increase the cost of all stealth ability casts exponentially just like Sorcerers BoL / Streak.

The last thing this game needs is more nerfs.

chevalierknight

Truewan wrote: »

Someone can use the ability lethal arrow twice without having stealth broken, there are plenty of abilities and skills (including all my templar and weapon/armor skills that do no damage) that break stealth.

It's imperative for pvp balance that the moment you execute a damaging ability, your stealth should also break.

As a 200 year old vampire rogue your tears sustain me

Vis

You want more nerfs?

Truewan

I see this often as a response to stealth openers - "USE MAGELIGHT NOOB".

No, I do not believe you should have to change your bar or use one specific ability to counter a single game mechanic.

It's there and I do use it, but as a stamina user, it feels nigh useless in fights. A better, more practical solution - Any Damaging Ability Breaks Stealth.

These one shotters tears as they face the slim possibility they can no longer shot people are flowing.

Truewan

Lets look at this way - how many people have been one shot? I'm sure many if not all players here, it's not fun and it is very frustrating.

We're essentially arguing that for every one shotter who is happy he can one shot people not using magelight - there are 10 people who are frustrated and unhappy they have to use magelight or get one shot.

From a gaming satisfaction perspective, it makes more sense to do a slight nerf to openers via a damaging ability breaks stealth.

bowmanz607

this is the reason for the 50% damage reduction. to allow reaction time to those attacks. as it stands now, if those glass cannons dont kill you right away, then they likley wont kill you if you know how to recoup real quick. essentially, one shot is getting nerfed. again, there are ways around these players. dont use the ganking route to where your going. there is always a route gankers wont sit b/c it is not active enough. and yes, you dont like it then you should take prventative measures that the game offers. for every build there is a counter-build. not only that not everyone in a group has to run it. it effects all allies in the area. so your talking for every one there is ten. well for every ten players run mage light. yelling about stealth one shot glass cannons when you are not taking preventative measures is the same as people yelling about nerf vampires yet they dont use fighters guild abilities.

DeanTheCat

Truewan wrote: »

I see this often as a response to stealth openers - "USE MAGELIGHT NOOB".

No, I do not believe you should have to change your bar or use one specific ability to counter a single game mechanic.

It's there and I do use it, but as a stamina user, it feels nigh useless in fights. A better, more practical solution - Any Damaging Ability Breaks Stealth.

These one shotters tears as they face the slim possibility they can no longer shot people are flowing.

So... You want to be able to kill every single build in the game without the possibility that your build may be hard countered by another right? Well, this isn't how ESO combat is designed. The whole combat system is one giantic glorified Rock-Paper-Scissors game. The design intention (Limited Skill Bars) is to force you to be unable to cover all weaknesses of your build, and you can only shift your weakness around.

Let's change the situation slightly. I don't like the fact that I'm forced to slot Flying Blade, but I have no choice but to have to slot it, due to Sorcerers who like to cower in mines. Do I go to the forums and ask mines to be nerfed? No. There is a counterplay available to me, to which I take it. The ability to adapt and counterplay is the difference between a decent player and a poor one.

Think about it this way:

Rock -> Stealthers
Scissors -> Non-Magelight users
Paper -> Magelight users

I'm sorry OP, but your post sounds like "Nerf Rock, Paper is fine. Regards, Scissors" to me.

Cathexis

In my experience, no arrangement that uses magelight is a functional skillbar arrangement, such that it prevents death by stealth attacks, unless you are accompanied by a team of gankers.

I survive more often by dodgeroll>block than by a ball of light

DeanTheCat

Magelight doesn't stop 100% of all gank attempts, that I admit, but it stops 95% of attempts by a single ganker. Radiant Magelight is the difference between being killed instantly on the spot and having that 1-2 second window of opportunity to react. Provided you don't have the reaction speed of a sleeping person, it's enough to have a chance of fighting back. (Summoning @Master_Kas )

1-2 seconds may not seem like much, but it's enough to pop a cloak or activate a damage shield or activate a heal or a dodge/block. That is often the difference between life and death when being attacked by a ganker. In addition, by attacking you, the ganker has revealed himself/herself and his/her position on the battlefield. In addition, regular stealth will no longer work for the ganker for the next 20-30 seconds, allowing you time to close in. These builds focus so much into alpha strike damage, that if they fail to kill you the the first hit, they will fall if you manage to fight back due to having the survivability of wet tissue paper.

Usage of Magelight may not seem like a functional skillbar arrangement to you, but as the effect of Magelight extends far beyond just affecting the caster (10m radius), you can shield a whole party from sneak attacks just by having it active. I call that taking one for the team. Incidentally, 10m is the radius of abilities like Vigor, which is often touted as an excellent AoE heal, and being able to hit many allies with a single activation. In addition, in this rather large radii, enemy cloaks will instantly fizzle and fail, which gives a distinctive advantage when fighting Nightblades. All this at the price of two skill slots, which makes the caster much more vulnerable to a non-stealth based opponent, but rains on the parade of every single stealth based opponent out there.

Radiant Magelight is also usable by stealth fighters, to use for counterstealth type builds. No build is better at hunting down stealthers, then a dedicated Nightblade who's sole existence is to make life a living hell for every other enemy stealther out there. That kind of build incidentally, also earns quite a bit of AP

bowmanz607

I have a build that is for ganking gankers. 7pc med. with bow/dw. 5pc is sentry set so i get 20% extra damage from attacking stealthed targets which stacks with my stealth crit from behind, my bosmer passive, and nb passive. not to mention, increased crit damage in champ points. stacked with the fact that gankers are glass cannons. they drop real quick. it is a wonderful thing. and @DeanTheCat i 100% agree with you.

Master_Kas

@DeanTheCat

Don't even try to explain how good magelight is to the sorc-forumpolice.
They only want NB to be free kills while they shieldspam and bolt into the sunset

Edit: agree 100% with Dean

eventide03b14a_ESO

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

So if casting a damage shield would remove stealth this would balance pvp? I don't think so.
All attacks allready remove stealth, so it's only some shields and self buffs that would be changed.

Casting shields already takes you out of stealth.

Cathexis

@DeanTheCat I think you are vastly overstating magelight. I have never, ever had it save me from nightblade stealth nukes.

But for fun, let's suppose it did.
Suppose you get that 1-2 seconds to react.
You are still half health.
You are still on an extreme defensive that will probably require popping an ultimate and or potions.
Being dependent on those things to counter, to me, is an unacceptable balance.

bowmanz607

Either way. 50% dmage decrease will go a long way

Domander

Eh, the only thing it needs is for only one attack (first) to count as a sneak attack.

timidobserver

DeanTheCat wrote: »

This little ball of light will protect you from stealth attacks as well as aid you in tracking and hunting down stealthers.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Magelight

Radiant Magelight

• Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by [x]
• The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
• While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%.
• Reveals hidden enemies and nearby allies take less damage from stealth attacks.

I've been focused aimed for 18k through radiant magelight.

Master_Kas

timidobserver wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

This little ball of light will protect you from stealth attacks as well as aid you in tracking and hunting down stealthers.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Magelight

Radiant Magelight

• Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by [x]
• The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
• While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%.
• Reveals hidden enemies and nearby allies take less damage from stealth attacks.

I've been focused aimed for 18k through radiant magelight.

I call that BS! It would mean the snipe dmg was 36000+ dmg xD .

BrassRazoo

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

BrassRazoo wrote: »

Just increase the cost of all stealth ability casts exponentially just like Sorcerers BoL / Streak.

The last thing this game needs is more nerfs.

Tell that to ZoS.
All they seem to do is nerf not fix.
Hide / Sneak / Invis / Rol Dodge requires the same attention that Sorc BoL / Streak has received.

Waylander

If you want to decrease stealth openers then re-work might of the guild as it is an empower buff that you can cast in stealth to give your stealth opener 20% more damage.

Radiant magelight is also indeed a counter.

But you are still going to get one shot by a dedicated ganker. It is unavoidable unless you run full heavy armour with health over 35k (enjoy doing nothing but living with that build).

A bow gank build is a playstyle where the entire build is built around 1 second burst damage.

We have a very good bow ganker in our guild who can hit 30k+ snipes due to a combination of gear, buff rotation and CP. He is very secretive of his build, but the guy puts in an amazing amount of time to be effective at what he does. He knows his exact burst on different resistance levels through testing. He remembers most players levels of squishiness, and knows who he can 1 shot and who he cant.

He laughs like a little girl on TS every single time he one shots someone. Every. Single. Time.

Don't take away this man's joy, because you want to ride in safety.

DeanTheCat

Cathexis wrote: »

@DeanTheCat I think you are vastly overstating magelight. I have never, ever had it save me from nightblade stealth nukes.

But for fun, let's suppose it did.
Suppose you get that 1-2 seconds to react.
You are still half health.
You are still on an extreme defensive that will probably require popping an ultimate and or potions.
Being dependent on those things to counter, to me, is an unacceptable balance.

@Cathexis Hmm, maybe we have different experiences with the skill? I have Magelight active on both bars (My build is designed for counterstealth) and it saves me constantly on a daily basis. Snipes that would have otherwise one shotted me do not, and this is even after factoring in Camo Hunter damage (I'm a vampire).

The first strike advantage the ganker got puts you on the defensive, that I agree, but you really only have to go on defensive mode for round 10 seconds. The ganker simply cannot sustain his assault, and will have to flee in a matter of seconds. How is this any different for let's say a Dragonknight holding his shield high making his opponent waste resources attacking him before crushing them when they run dry? Or a Sorcerer stacking shields (It takes way more resources to break a shield as compared to casting one), or a Templar spamming Breath of Life? Heck, even Sap Essence NBs use a similar philosophy.

The ganker is sacrificing everything to make that 1st hit count, being able to counter all that with the price of one of your party slotting Radiant Magelight is really just a small price. If there was something similar to Magelight that stopped Sorc's Bolt from working, or DK's GDB or Templar's Heals, you'll be sure as heck it will be on my bar 24/7.

timidobserver wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

This little ball of light will protect you from stealth attacks as well as aid you in tracking and hunting down stealthers.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Magelight

Radiant Magelight

• Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by [x]
• The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
• While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%.
• Reveals hidden enemies and nearby allies take less damage from stealth attacks.

I've been focused aimed for 18k through radiant magelight.

This value is not possible to be attained without severe CP (600+ minimum), Aggressive Horn, Empower, Mark Target, Stealthy Racial, Major Brutality, Major Berserk, Minor Berserk with maybe even Emperor thrown into the mix. This isn't normal values. The gold standard for stealth snipes on the EU server is currently hovering round the 22k Mark pre-reduction, so after going through Magelight and various armor reductions, it will hit for round 9-12k damage. Most snipes don't even hit this hard.

Cathexis

@DeanTheCat I'm running as a stamina sorc, so that may affect things differently, especially of you are a templar or a dk.

DeanTheCat

Cathexis wrote: »

@DeanTheCat I'm running as a stamina sorc, so that may affect things differently, especially of you are a templar or a dk.

@Cathexis I'm a Nightblade actually. I find it more fun to hunt gankers then it is to hunt riders, so I made a build designed to hunt gankers. I'm earning a ton of AP from it. Stam Sorc... I feel your pain. I have a friend who plays Stam Sorc, and he has to put it so much effort to just be 75% of the effectiveness of other stam builds. You however, have my respect for doing what most wouldn't do. When ZoS buffs Stam Sorc eventually (Soon™), you'll have the experience needed to tear through everyone else

Atheepic

DeanTheCat wrote: »

This little ball of light will protect you from stealth attacks as well as aid you in tracking and hunting down stealthers.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Magelight

Radiant Magelight

• Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by [x]
• The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
• While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%.
• Reveals hidden enemies and nearby allies take less damage from stealth attacks.

This is true, but currently in my Templar healer build, I am using that little ball of light for it's other morph.

Truewan

I haven't heard any argument against my original topic. So far the arguments have been as follows:

A) This is okay because this build can do this
B ) Use magelight, umm I have nothing to say about the main topic but magelight!
C) Don't take away one shot builds

This thread really derailed hard from the original topic. I don't think it's gamebreaking to one shot builds that they lose their stealth status the moment they push deadly shot, nor do they lose the ability to one shot. All my two-handed/duel-wield/templar non-damaging abilities already do this. Yes, including shields and magelight lol.