R.I.P Sword and Board - 2015

ToRelax

Bashev wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

Jakeol wrote: »

No stam regen when blocking might be a necessary change to pave the way for other nerfs like fear

Edit: CC that goes through block is the primary way to counter "perma" blockers. Fear is the main ability to counter blocking, how can a nerf to fear be justified if there is no other means to kill a blocker with enough stam regen.

The only problem people have with fear is you couldn't block it. Now that block is nerfed the power of fear is also nerfed. I want you to hold block so you run out of stam. Fear is now a normal everyday stun that cannot be blocked. Like prox that cannot be purged.

Do you believe that fear will be similar to a normal stun? Do you think that we are noobs? It is like an offend for me. Fear is not a normal stun because it doesn't break when you take damage. If you dont break it you can be fear locked.

No stun breaks on damage. That type of CC is called "disorient" in this game.
However, that fear goes through block will still make it special. People do block certain (cc) moves even without a blocking build already, after all.

Wrong. Fossilize skill description - "Encase an enemy in stone to stun them for 20 seconds. When the effect ends, enemies take 8 Magic Damage and remain rooted for 2.5 seconds. Affected enemies can take 0 damage before the stun is broken."

You're a bit hasty with your assumptions...
I know that tooltip pretty well. It is in fact a disorient, and that is also being mentioned in the Fossilize morph description.
The thing is that this skill also applies a damage shield to the target, the effect still ends when you hit them.
Or to make it a bit more obvious: With 1.6, disorient has been make unblockable across the board. That is also why Streak was unblockable on pts, before it got changed into a stun and why Fossilize always broke on damage.

kojou

I will have to try the new "updates" in the PTS to be sure, but my first thought was the same. Tanking will be ruined etc, but then I remembered... my DK tank has a stamina regen of about 600-800 depending on if Green Dragon Blood is going which is not a lot to regen to lose while blocking. If I was totally dependent on stamina regen to get stamina then I would be a horrible tank with or without this change. Fortunately I have other ways to get stamina back while blocking, so this change will be very minor for my DK.

To me this is more of a RIP stamina builds who block while using their 2500+ regen to keep them blocking and dodging which is probably not a bad thing, but we'll see how it plays out soon enough.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Smuggles

The only people I see this affecting are the ones that hold block at all times. If you pay attention and block situationally, there will be no problem. Loss of regen for a second isn't game breaking. It just makes you have to play your character.

Edited for those damn swypos

OdinForge

It's true, i ran a 1H/DW NB. Less damage output, less mobility and less healing than you'd find in a typical NB rotation.

Now i have a feeling I'm going to have to run 2H/Bow like every other stamina NB. So much for variety, i couldn't permablock and i couldn't permadodge, and most typical NB builds could easily out-DPS me. 1H is going to be pretty useless for all but the most extreme tank spec, and even then GG.

TheBucket

Zsymon wrote: »

All it takes is one single person in your group slotting an AoE or popping a detection potion.. if one person in your group does this, then all nearby NBs have their cloaks turn into an expensive waste of magicka. Honestly detection potions should have no effect on cloak, only AoE damage. Have one person slot Steel Tornado and you have a way to stop a cloaker.

Skills are only too powerful if there are no counters, and there are plenty of counters against Cloak.

All stamina builds were pretty much ruined by the coming changes, including Nightblades. Nightblades won't be able to dodge more than three times anymore either, without burning all their stamina, and their high stamina regeneration obviously won't help them with the block change.

Wrong.. They said they are fixing detection potions so they will not see through Cloak.

Aunatar

Can't kill a permablocker? Let's complain on the forum instead of changing target
Oh wait, I can actually hit permablockers for 4k with surprise attack on my VR1 nightblade with maces, should I make a "nerf armor penetration" post? Nah, that's fine, my class is designed to kill people and vanish forever.
Trolololol

TheElementalPlatypus

Aunatar wrote: »

Can't kill a permablocker? Let's complain on the forum instead of changing target
Oh wait, I can actually hit permablockers for 4k with surprise attack on my VR1 nightblade with maces, should I make a "nerf armor penetration" post? Nah, that's fine, my class is designed to kill people and vanish forever.
Trolololol

Not sure if really stupid or just trolling. If you were to read my post you would understand that this is in no way a nerf permablock thread. Also they ARE a problem, hence the nerf, this post was talking about how that nerf may have been too far.

TheBucket wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

All it takes is one single person in your group slotting an AoE or popping a detection potion.. if one person in your group does this, then all nearby NBs have their cloaks turn into an expensive waste of magicka. Honestly detection potions should have no effect on cloak, only AoE damage. Have one person slot Steel Tornado and you have a way to stop a cloaker.

Skills are only too powerful if there are no counters, and there are plenty of counters against Cloak.

All stamina builds were pretty much ruined by the coming changes, including Nightblades. Nightblades won't be able to dodge more than three times anymore either, without burning all their stamina, and their high stamina regeneration obviously won't help them with the block change.

Wrong.. They said they are fixing detection potions so they will not see through Cloak.

I'm glad there are people who know what they are actually saying before posting some nonsense. Exactly, along with detect pot fix, it seems as though they are fixing a LOT of single target abilities breaking it, and from my understanding next patch it will be radiant magelight/AoE that can detect it. That leaves a small window in what used to be a ton of counters.

Leandor

Aunatar wrote: »

Can't kill a permablocker? Let's complain on the forum instead of changing target
Oh wait, I can actually hit permablockers for 4k with surprise attack on my VR1 nightblade with maces, should I make a "nerf armor penetration" post? Nah, that's fine, my class is designed to kill people and vanish forever.
Trolololol

This is one of the persons I was talking about.

What it says is basically: "I just use another exploit to equalize the exploit, why are you complaining?"

Can someone please make and post that rapper's picture with something like "I heard you like exploits so I made a new exploit so that you can exploit the other exploit" and post it all over the forums?

kstebbins

This will be the death of vet dungeons, trials and the arena too. Nobody will be able to tank anything for long, then the whole party just dies because the tank ran out of stamina and couldn't taunt, or block. This is one of the stupidest things I have seen an mmo do. Lets kill all the tank build and screw everyone. A permablocker in pvp is so easy to kill, oh you're blocking hmm maybe I should fear you then nuke you as you run. Catering to the cry babies who don't know game mechanics will break your entire game.

ToRelax

kstebbins wrote: »

This will be the death of vet dungeons, trials and the arena too. Nobody will be able to tank anything for long, then the whole party just dies because the tank ran out of stamina and couldn't taunt, or block. This is one of the stupidest things I have seen an mmo do. Lets kill all the tank build and screw everyone. A permablocker in pvp is so easy to kill, oh you're blocking hmm maybe I should fear you then nuke you as you run. Catering to the cry babies who don't know game mechanics will break your entire game.

It's true they shouldn't just listen to "the cry babies who don't know game mechanics".
Wich includes PvEers who think they won't be able to complete their content without a tank that regens stamina on his own while permablocking. They even said they were able to complete it with their changes. <_<

Vis

I don't get why people think having a S&B means you want to perma-block. My sorc runs with a S&B off hand and never blocks. It still has great utility with reflects, debuffs, and cc's.

OdinForge

Vis wrote: »

I don't get why people think having a S&B means you want to perma-block. My sorc runs with a S&B off hand and never blocks. It still has great utility with reflects, debuffs, and cc's.

You don't need to block much at all with your mobility and ward.

It's also not about wanting to permablock, it's always been a symptom of poor design and i never liked the idea. But with the outrageous damage in the current game, it's almost required. Hopefully reduced damage and some of the other changes for the next patch will lower the pressure and need to hold block, and the stamina regeneration change will balance out.

Leandor

OdinForge wrote: »

You don't need to block much at all with your mobility and ward.

I kind of disagree. I have to block way more on my sorc than I ever did on my stamina nightblade. The problem is the abilities that combine damage with CC (frags, jabs, charges, etc.), which I was able to dodge roll with the nightblade, I now have to block even though the damage does not touch me at all because of ward.

OdinForge

Leandor wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

You don't need to block much at all with your mobility and ward.

I kind of disagree. I have to block way more on my sorc than I ever did on my stamina nightblade. The problem is the abilities that combine damage with CC (frags, jabs, charges, etc.), which I was able to dodge roll with the nightblade, I now have to block even though the damage does not touch me at all because of ward.

You might be doing it wrong, if i fought a Sorc who blocked too much it'd be too easy of a kill. I've fought plenty of Sorc that use 1H, and it's true they barely touch it save for the occasional reflect. Obviously this depends on their build, but tank type Sorc are pretty rare.

Recasting wards and using your mobility, combined with other skills like mines and taking advantage of CC immunity and LOS when available. Add in some good stamina regen. I don't see why you'd need to block too much, depending on your NB build you might not need to block nearly as much. Using bow to stack movement speed, combined with dodge and cloak to get out of danger. But if you took bow out of the equation you cut your mobility in half, a NB using 1H lacks a strong shield like Sorc and thus would rely on block a lot more, even the builds that have the stamina regen to incorporate dodge. You can combine dodge + cloak + block, but you're still blocking more and you lack the strong mobility most NB get with bow.

Leandor

OdinForge wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

You don't need to block much at all with your mobility and ward.

I kind of disagree. I have to block way more on my sorc than I ever did on my stamina nightblade. The problem is the abilities that combine damage with CC (frags, jabs, charges, etc.), which I was able to dodge roll with the nightblade, I now have to block even though the damage does not touch me at all because of ward.

You might be doing it wrong, if i fought a Sorc who blocked too much it'd be too easy of a kill. I've fought plenty of Sorc that use 1H, and it's true they barely touch it save for the occasional reflect. Obviously this depends on their build, but tank type Sorc are pretty rare.

Recasting wards and using your mobility, combined with other skills like mines and taking advantage of CC immunity and LOS when available. Add in some good stamina regen. I don't see why you'd need to block too much, depending on your NB build you might not need to block nearly as much. Using bow to stack movement speed, combined with dodge and cloak to get out of danger. But if you took bow out of the equation you cut your mobility in half, a NB using 1H lacks a strong shield like Sorc and thus would rely on block a lot more, even the builds that have the stamina regen to incorporate dodge. You can combine dodge + cloak + block, but you're still blocking more and you lack the strong mobility most NB get with bow.

I think you misunderstood partially. I do not use S'n'B, I use destro/resto on the sorc and DW/bow on the nightblade. I do not "tank" damage by blocking it, but if I get targeted, I block the immediate CC and in parallel use my mobility to get away and prevent further CC.

With "I block more on the sorc than on the nightblade" I meant that I literally press RMB more often. I tank as little as possible, can't, actually because this game made me kind of addicted to the glass cannon thing even though I usually played tank in all MMOs.

OdinForge

@Leandor

Ahh, well i meant block in general not just with 1H. My perspective is from that of a stamina based NB, who experimented with 1H for the arrival of 1.6 (mostly for the reflect). And who's found that over time in this fast killing patch, that a lack of mobility means you're relying on block more than most. Hence why it's such a popular meta for the DK class, and why a Sorc wouldn't care as much.

Ezareth

I use S&B on my Sorc and the nerf to doesn't affect him at all. I'll probably be switching to S&B for my NB next patch as well.

DeanTheCat

Leandor wrote: »

Aunatar wrote: »

Can't kill a permablocker? Let's complain on the forum instead of changing target
Oh wait, I can actually hit permablockers for 4k with surprise attack on my VR1 nightblade with maces, should I make a "nerf armor penetration" post? Nah, that's fine, my class is designed to kill people and vanish forever.
Trolololol

This is one of the persons I was talking about.

What it says is basically: "I just use another exploit to equalize the exploit, why are you complaining?"

Can someone please make and post that rapper's picture with something like "I heard you like exploits so I made a new exploit so that you can exploit the other exploit" and post it all over the forums?

@Leandor You requested this?



Personally though, Stam Regen being zero while blocking isn't that bad unless you are the kind who like to wade into a whole zerg and hope to tank them solo. Most people I see (In non-zergdive situations) don't even block for more than 5-10 seconds at a time and they drop their block when attacking, as they want to make use of weaving.

If you have the right passives/enchantments when you are blocking, you can block for quite a long time (I once tested a Thunderous Plate Mail + Orgnum's Scales HP regen build), add in stuff like Helping Hands or Siphoning Attacks (Sorry Templars and Sorcs, you'll need help from your friendly neighbourhood Templar's Repentance or Spear Shards) and you'll still be able to regain Stam even when Regen = 0.

Templars have the Mist Form + Channeled Focus synergy, due to Channeled Focus not counting as actual magicka regen but ticks of Magicka restore, you can still regen some amount of Magicka when using Mist, and Mist will allow your stam some time to regenerate. For Sorcs... eh... Stack Shields?

Leandor

@DeanTheCat awesome, mate! Thanks a bunch, now I have some reposting to do

Docmandu

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Go try to block a select few attacks with even 120 ping

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Go block 8 important attacks with 200 ping

So next post, 500ms ping?!

pjwb16_ESO

Docmandu wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Go try to block a select few attacks with even 120 ping

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Go block 8 important attacks with 200 ping

So next post, 500ms ping?!

Go block 16 important attacks with a ping ITS OVER NINETHOUSAND !!!

trimsic_ESO

Permablock has never been a problem, except when people have started to cast some abilities while blocking and deal huge damage (magicka builds in most cases).

What is the solution of ZOS?

To punish every tank and every stamina player both in Cyrodiil and in PVE by stopping the stamina regeneration while blocking, instead of reducing the damage of abilities casted while blocking, thus punishing only those who abuse the system.

I just don't understand. Can Erik explain the rationale of his proposal, so we can at least try to understand it?

Cinbri

How about waiting some info about skills and passives changed in favor of blocking and only than starting QQ.

TheElementalPlatypus

Cinbri wrote: »

How about waiting some info about skills and passives changed in favor of blocking and only than starting QQ.

This was clearly a *seems* intended thread, as I mentioned *seems* not *it is*. This is why people are so stupid these days they cant comprehend simple english terms. I wonder why even bother with the forums anymore, any competent thing people say gets shot down.

All I can say is, welcome to nightblade scrolls online next patch, enjoy it, g'bye eso you had so much potential if only we had competent devs.

trimsic_ESO

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

How about waiting some info about skills and passives changed in favor of blocking and only than starting QQ.

This was clearly a *seems* intended thread, as I mentioned *seems* not *it is*. This is why people are so stupid these days they cant comprehend simple english terms. I wonder why even bother with the forums anymore, any competent thing people say gets shot down.

All I can say is, welcome to nightblade scrolls online next patch, enjoy it, g'bye eso you had so much potential if only we had competent devs.

Such changes have not been announced since people have started to (over)react to the S&B nerf. And even if such changes were part of the next patch, it is still extremely curious to stop the stamina regeneration while blocking, when we all know that the people who abuse the system are magicka players casting their magicka abilities while blocking. If the solution were to reduce the damage dealt by the abilities while blocking, it would properly solve the problem without impacting those who don't abuse the system and need their stamina and S&B to mitigate incoming damage.

Cinbri

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

How about waiting some info about skills and passives changed in favor of blocking and only than starting QQ.

This was clearly a *seems* intended thread, as I mentioned *seems* not *it is*. This is why people are so stupid these days they cant comprehend simple english terms. I wonder why even bother with the forums anymore, any competent thing people say gets shot down.

All I can say is, welcome to nightblade scrolls online next patch, enjoy it, g'bye eso you had so much potential if only we had competent devs.

Whiners gonna whine. Thats all i heared from you "clever boy".
Ok, go on. It definetly will make forum more enjoyable place.

Bashev

Cinbri wrote: »

How about waiting some info about skills and passives changed in favor of blocking and only than starting QQ.

We can wait. I really hope that they changed one the Heavy armor passives which will negate the stamina regeneration nerf otherwise Heavy armor will be useless in PvP as every decent player has either 20k+ spell penetration or 20k+ armor penetration.
But it if they don't change any skills to help with the stamina regeneration while blocking then it will be too late for crying on the forums.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO

1 handed and shield have been a joke from the gekko. yea they added a taunt (wooow)
2 handed are fare more tank based / and have op dps(skills)

TheElementalPlatypus

Cinbri wrote: »

How about waiting some info about skills and passives changed in favor of blocking and only than starting QQ.

K lets wait. Lets allow them to ruin what could be a true gem of a game. As I said I dont even play a s&b build, if anything I'm defending the people that do. I stated constantly throughout this was a more thought thread than definite things, and I pointed out specifically how it will only make NB's even stronger and above all others than they currently are.

There is a difference between viable and practical.
There is a difference between viable and doable.
There is a difference between viable and accessible.

Sure templars/dk's just get the ol' eh whatever. (keep in mind I play neither). Without the mobility they need, without block as a decent option anymore, without being able to roll dodge into cloak and have super high regens, they may work, but will be outshined by a NB in almost every way.

I even expressed these opinions with pure basic logic, I pointed out mechanics. The only qq I see in this thread is a bunch of sorry people who comment without even reading for their pure self esteem boost.