Please do something against infinite roll dodge and Stamina builds :(

JDar

Dracane wrote: »

Maybe this is not only a roll dodge and Nightblade problem, but a problem with stamina builds in general.

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain, because blocking and dodging is all you need in this game. I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.
While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

Bingo. Roll dodge is not the problem, it is a symptom. Nightblades are not op, it is stamina that is out of control. Magicka players can't even get close to those numbers. Stamina users can cast two of the most powerful spells in the game with plenty to spare, and don't have to put any points, enchants or set pieces into magicka. Stamina NB is completely ridiculous.

Varicite

JDar wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Maybe this is not only a roll dodge and Nightblade problem, but a problem with stamina builds in general.

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain, because blocking and dodging is all you need in this game. I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.
While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

Bingo. Roll dodge is not the problem, it is a symptom. Nightblades are not op, it is stamina that is out of control. Magicka players can't even get close to those numbers. Stamina users can cast two of the most powerful spells in the game with plenty to spare, and don't have to put any points, enchants or set pieces into magicka. Stamina NB is completely ridiculous.

Magicka Sorc can do the exact same thing...

kojou

Varicite wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Maybe this is not only a roll dodge and Nightblade problem, but a problem with stamina builds in general.

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain, because blocking and dodging is all you need in this game. I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.
While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

Bingo. Roll dodge is not the problem, it is a symptom. Nightblades are not op, it is stamina that is out of control. Magicka players can't even get close to those numbers. Stamina users can cast two of the most powerful spells in the game with plenty to spare, and don't have to put any points, enchants or set pieces into magicka. Stamina NB is completely ridiculous.

Magicka Sorc can do the exact same thing...

Not only that, but they don't have to share their offensive resource pool with their defensive. Part of the reason stamina builds go all out on regen is because they have to attack, block, and dodge with the same resource.

Lava_Croft

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Maybe this is not only a roll dodge and Nightblade problem, but a problem with stamina builds in general.

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain, because blocking and dodging is all you need in this game. I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.
While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

Bingo. Roll dodge is not the problem, it is a symptom. Nightblades are not op, it is stamina that is out of control. Magicka players can't even get close to those numbers. Stamina users can cast two of the most powerful spells in the game with plenty to spare, and don't have to put any points, enchants or set pieces into magicka. Stamina NB is completely ridiculous.

Magicka Sorc can do the exact same thing...

Not only that, but they don't have to share their offensive resource pool with their defensive. Part of the reason stamina builds go all out on regen is because they have to attack, block, and dodge with the same resource.

Because Sorcerers don't use Magicka for both their offensive and defensive skills.

Right?

Domander

Lava_Croft wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Maybe this is not only a roll dodge and Nightblade problem, but a problem with stamina builds in general.

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain, because blocking and dodging is all you need in this game. I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.
While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

Bingo. Roll dodge is not the problem, it is a symptom. Nightblades are not op, it is stamina that is out of control. Magicka players can't even get close to those numbers. Stamina users can cast two of the most powerful spells in the game with plenty to spare, and don't have to put any points, enchants or set pieces into magicka. Stamina NB is completely ridiculous.

Magicka Sorc can do the exact same thing...

Not only that, but they don't have to share their offensive resource pool with their defensive. Part of the reason stamina builds go all out on regen is because they have to attack, block, and dodge with the same resource.

Because Sorcerers don't use Magicka for both their offensive and defensive skills.

Right?

Both arguments are not valid, stamina uses magicka for buffs/some things (if you don't, that's your own fault) magicka uses stamina for block/dodge/break free/some other things.

Deadskinmask

Do you even Nightblade bro?

Less QQ more pewpew. Catch, Stun, CC, GANK.

Nightblade problem solved.

olsborg

I agree with OP, dodgerolling is out of hand. Shieldstacking is out of hand. Permblocking and blockcasting is out of hand. Ball of lightning needs a nerf. Nirnhoned is making people quit the game.

That sums up what I believe is the biggest issues of the game, excluding lagg and bugs.

byrom101b16_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

asteldian wrote: »

As mentioned, infinite dodge rolling sacrifices damage the same way specs and their constant shield does - both require regen sets/drinks instead of damage sets and food. Be grateful Templar has Jesus Beam as we can gang bang dodge rollers

I can't agree on this. Roll dodging doesn't seem like a damage sacrifise to me. The roll dodge, attack+cc in under a secons, roll dodge again, strike, roll dodge, strike. It's unbelieveable. And in the future, when they have the passive from the (I believe it's the steed) which make stamina abilities cost 80% !!! less after a roll dodge.... good night.

If Zenimax were to introduce CP abilities which give 80% magicka cost reduction to your next spell after shielding, and the ability to put your opponent off balance if they hit your shield with an attack, can you IMAGINE the wailing on these forums!

But it's perfectly ok for stamina builds with their higher damage and lack of nirn-equivalent mitigation... ohh yes...

byrom101b16_ESO

Robotmafia wrote: »

lol seriously?? worst thing ever? what about sorcs teleporting half a mile in 3 secs... roll dodging 3 meters is worse?

FYI half a mile is roughly 800 meters... for those who don't know the conversion

Nobody who is reasonable thinks that BE couldn't be further balanced, and I say that as a Sorc main player.

But dodge rolling is BROKEN, and defending one broken ass ability by pointing out another one achieves precisely nothing, except making it clear to everyone how much you love your Nightblade's current OP advantages.

It doesn't matter that one particular setup or skill counters it under conditions 'x and y' - it's still OP. The same can be said of BE, but that is too strong, as is Snipe burst, Steel Tornado, Sorc spike damage, Detonation, Purge spamming, Nirnhoned mitigation levels, Multi-Shield spamming etc. etc. etc.

I do wish people would take a holistic view of the game and try to see why desperately defending one's own favourite OP meta while shouting down critics is counterproductive.

byrom101b16_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

Preyfar wrote: »

Roll dodger here. Radiant Destruction and Soul Assault can do serious damager to a roll dodger, but we can also instantly stop that damage by throwing up a cloak. It stops the damage instantly, and we can activate the cloak mid-dodge.

Roll dodge works like sprint: while you are doing it, all your abilities are disabled. You can not even drink a potion until the roll completes. So no, nightblades can not activate a cloak(or anything else for that matter) mid-dodge.

The fraction of a second necessary to activate an ability coming out of a dodge and indulge in animation cancelling (another 'genius' Zenimax meta) is negligible with a relatively modest amount of skill.

Your post is entirely misleading and functionally irrelevant, as lag and human reaction times makes the distinction you make, moot.

Lava_Croft

olsborg wrote: »

I agree with OP, dodgerolling is out of hand. Shieldstacking is out of hand. Permblocking and blockcasting is out of hand. Ball of lightning needs a nerf. Nirnhoned is making people quit the game.

That sums up what I believe is the biggest issues of the game, excluding lagg and bugs.

The biggest problem is that before 1.6, we had a system that while far from perfect, at least showed that people had taken time to come up with it. They had to tweak it, refine, make it better.

Post 1.6, it just feels like a bunch of interns were given the task to overhaul the (apparently in their view) 'broken' system we had and they had to complete this task in as little time as possible because of the upcoming re-release.

Varicite

Lava_Croft wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

I agree with OP, dodgerolling is out of hand. Shieldstacking is out of hand. Permblocking and blockcasting is out of hand. Ball of lightning needs a nerf. Nirnhoned is making people quit the game.

That sums up what I believe is the biggest issues of the game, excluding lagg and bugs.

The biggest problem is that before 1.6, we had a system that while far from perfect, at least showed that people had taken time to come up with it. They had to tweak it, refine, make it better.

Post 1.6, it just feels like a bunch of interns were given the task to overhaul the (apparently in their view) 'broken' system we had and they had to complete this task in as little time as possible because of the upcoming re-release.

I would love to play this game w/ the mechanics changes from 1.6+ w/ the resource pools and class balance of 1.5.

rfennell_ESO

Dodge roll isn't 100% effective for people not using a certain macro.

Now those that feel cheating is ok, well, cheating is their repertoire and that's how they "roll"... well, for them dodge roll is totally broken and they can kill you while they do it.

Some of them you can't even see the dodge roll.

Your best bet is just keep reporting them with a screenshot. Take your screenshot, while laying there dead and the "tough guy" in question is teabagging or /sweeping you calmly write out your exploit bug report explaining what happened.

Eventually something will be done, or not.. you aren't going to win many fights versus these cheats either way.

Now regarding dodge roll on people that aren't cheats... it's certainly not broken or really that OP. If your expectation is to hard cast a crystal frag from range and hit someone that is watching you do it and dodge rolling your actions.. well, that aint going to happen and that is working as intended.

Lyzaaa

eventually nothing will be done. Thread can be closed.

rfennell_ESO

Lyzaaa wrote: »

eventually nothing will be done. Thread can be closed.

Truthfully, there is no way to know... but there are people that blatantly done certain things that have disappeared from pvp.

Or some that lost all their AP and say leaderboard spots for emp.

It's not enough, but it's something being done.

k2blader

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Dodge roll isn't 100% effective for people not using a certain macro.

Now those that feel cheating is ok, well, cheating is their repertoire and that's how they "roll"... well, for them dodge roll is totally broken and they can kill you while they do it.

Some of them you can't even see the dodge roll.

Your best bet is just keep reporting them with a screenshot. Take your screenshot, while laying there dead and the "tough guy" in question is teabagging or /sweeping you calmly write out your exploit bug report explaining what happened.

Eventually something will be done, or not.. you aren't going to win many fights versus these cheats either way.

Now regarding dodge roll on people that aren't cheats... it's certainly not broken or really that OP. If your expectation is to hard cast a crystal frag from range and hit someone that is watching you do it and dodge rolling your actions.. well, that aint going to happen and that is working as intended.

Good post. The bolded part is the way I see it also. It's up to Zeni to fix the cheating. If they do, or if they don't-- players will choose to either continue to pay money, or stop paying. The choice was pretty clear for me 3 months ago; but probably enough people are fine enjoying PvE aspects.

Re. dying or not being able to kill someone, I don't know why some folks get so worked up over it. The anti-sorcs seem to be the worst when it comes to that, and thus possibly the least reasonable people playing the game. If I find myself in a scenario where it seems a generally fair fight (loosely written), if I get killed I figure the other player was just better (including things like level, CPs, gear, etc.) and I try to think what I might do the next time to better my odds. That said, it's hard to find naturally occurring instances like that as most times I die to zerg/blobs.

kadar

Dracane...

I could replace every instance of the words "Stamina, NB, and dodgeroll" in this post with the words "Magicka, Sorc, shield" and this post would make perfect sense.

"Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain"--- Can you say, Sorc shield stacking? This is like...exactly what Sorcs do to Magicka...

And after Dodge roll rant you go on to complain about blocking?

Basically you are complaining that every form of mitigation besides the one you use (you are OBVIOUSLY a sorc) is not fair, or "OP."

Stop QQ pls.

kadar

Varicite wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I know, this is a common topic and I don't want to qq. But I can no longer be silent about this.
Roll dodging is the worst thing, this game has ever seen.

Why didn't you post in one of the many other topics about this, then?

Dracane wrote: »

They roll dodge forever, break free forever and can block forever.

Nobody can do all these things forever on top of dealing damage. You can't even just block or break free forever. Gross exaggeration is not helping your case...

Dracane wrote: »

I feel like blocking absorbs over 90% of the damage and stamina users don't even have to manage ressources, because it somehow never depleads.

Well, it may feel like that, but you are obviously wrong on both counts, and you either know it or just being sensationalist. Why? I don't know. Clearly somebody like me is just going to come along and correct you.

Dracane wrote: »

While Magicka builds on the other hand, must go full sustain, because otherwise we're out after a few seconds and full damage doesn't help, because it never hits or is absorbed by the turtle block And still, shield stacking is nowhere as powerfull and cheap as a roll dodge or block.

Sorcs exist. Maybe you don't play one, but they do. They exemplify the opposite end of this spectrum and this is why they are the other most popular class in Cyrodiil, along w/ NBs.

Man, I hate having to do this. Why you make me do this? : /

Also. This. Someone already iterated my thoughts only better.

KatzMainTank