Please do something against infinite roll dodge and Stamina builds :(

OdinForge

Preyfar wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Smh, there is so much over-exaggeration here and misinformation. People truly have no idea how regen specs work, saying crap like roll dodging from one keep to another and putting out top damage. People who even try regen builds themselves, have no idea how the mechanics are working.

You can easily attain high regen rates with the champion system, the right build AND still do near infinite roll dodges.

Infinite blockers tend to do low damage for their builds, but Nightblades can easily buff up 3K+ stam regen and do a fair amount of damage.

I'm not saying it's ideal, just that it can be done. With my base build (2H/Bow), I do 1.8K regen and 2.6K damage, and can dodge roll for quite a long time while still doing massive damage.

If I dropped Hunding's Rage and swapped it for Way of the Air, I could still do quite a bit of damage (after roll dodging). Hundings (gold) give 299 damage, Way of the Air (purple) gives 320 after dodging. Equipping Way of the Air (with my passives and Champion system additions) gives me about 500+ additional stamina regent, putting me at almost 2.4K regen, and still able to do quite a bit of damage. A Bosmer build would be looking at far, far more stam, same level of damage.

With 2.4K stamina regen, I can pop a Stam or Tripot and add another 20% to my stamina regen... adding another 500 to my stam regen and still able to dish out the damage, but I'm now able to dodge roll my little heart out. And people who've fought me in PVP know I can deal quite the damage. =D

TL;DR - you can easily have a build that allow you to high levels of damage with high level stamina regen AND roll dodge your heart out. It's not hard.

Read my earlier post here please. I'm running 2.2K stamina regen with 2.4K weapon damage (1H, higher with 2H) and I'm not a bosmer. With bow as my utility / buff bar, i can achieve high levels of sustain with roll dodge. It's not infinite roll dodge though, it's the movement speed buffs and the fact that i can get away from my opponents and not roll dodge as much. The extra stamina that I'm saving in regen can go to attacking with burst by means of arrow DoT and fear & 2H combo.

But this is not possible without bow, you cannot get enough distance as easily and thus you're taking more damage. In turn you're using heals like rally/vigor and other defensive abilities more to keep your HP protected. This is all a huge hit to your stamina pool, even with 2.2K stamina regen. Not to mention that you're losing a ton of damage potential by dropping 2H and using 1H or even DW in some cases (2H outshines DW easily in every way).

I will make a video that shows the gameplay difference between 2H/Bow no nirn vs 1H/2H or DW/2H or DW/1H no nirn. It's all in the combined efforts of bow speed + nirn + offensive synergy of 2H. Roll dodge is not the culprit here.

Tl;DR: What I'm saying is that ZOS needs to look at the overwhelming efficiency of 2H/Bow. Spruce up 1H / DW a bit, maybe remove the speed buff stack from bow (the mobility from bow is insane). And remove nirn from the game, and tone down magicka damage slightly and balance out phsyical damage a bit.

The problem is not regen or roll dodge.

dodgehopper_ESO

I don't think so. I do believe they need to make a physical trait that functions like nirnhoned for PHYSICAL damage. Ruining Roll Dodge is not a good idea though. People can bolt escape/streak at will with ease, or shield up, I'm not sure its a good idea to wreck roll dodge for stamina builds.

PBpsy

I support all kinds of stamina nerfs.

Tors

Noone ever died to a roll dodger.

Well they may have fallen asleep, this is how streakers kill people, because people fall asleep chasing them and are then killlable with their low dps

The_Drexill

Roll is op to combat other op Skills. Everything is op, thus... balance.

Bfish22090

OdinForge wrote: »

Preyfar wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Smh, there is so much over-exaggeration here and misinformation. People truly have no idea how regen specs work, saying crap like roll dodging from one keep to another and putting out top damage. People who even try regen builds themselves, have no idea how the mechanics are working.

You can easily attain high regen rates with the champion system, the right build AND still do near infinite roll dodges.

Infinite blockers tend to do low damage for their builds, but Nightblades can easily buff up 3K+ stam regen and do a fair amount of damage.

I'm not saying it's ideal, just that it can be done. With my base build (2H/Bow), I do 1.8K regen and 2.6K damage, and can dodge roll for quite a long time while still doing massive damage.

If I dropped Hunding's Rage and swapped it for Way of the Air, I could still do quite a bit of damage (after roll dodging). Hundings (gold) give 299 damage, Way of the Air (purple) gives 320 after dodging. Equipping Way of the Air (with my passives and Champion system additions) gives me about 500+ additional stamina regent, putting me at almost 2.4K regen, and still able to do quite a bit of damage. A Bosmer build would be looking at far, far more stam, same level of damage.

With 2.4K stamina regen, I can pop a Stam or Tripot and add another 20% to my stamina regen... adding another 500 to my stam regen and still able to dish out the damage, but I'm now able to dodge roll my little heart out. And people who've fought me in PVP know I can deal quite the damage. =D

TL;DR - you can easily have a build that allow you to high levels of damage with high level stamina regen AND roll dodge your heart out. It's not hard.

Read my earlier post here please. I'm running 2.2K stamina regen with 2.4K weapon damage (1H, higher with 2H) and I'm not a bosmer. With bow as my utility / buff bar, i can achieve high levels of sustain with roll dodge. It's not infinite roll dodge though, it's the movement speed buffs and the fact that i can get away from my opponents and not roll dodge as much. The extra stamina that I'm saving in regen can go to attacking with burst by means of arrow DoT and fear & 2H combo.

But this is not possible without bow, you cannot get enough distance as easily and thus you're taking more damage. In turn you're using heals like rally/vigor and other defensive abilities more to keep your HP protected. This is all a huge hit to your stamina pool, even with 2.2K stamina regen. Not to mention that you're losing a ton of damage potential by dropping 2H and using 1H or even DW in some cases (2H outshines DW easily in every way).

I will make a video that shows the gameplay difference between 2H/Bow no nirn vs 1H/2H or DW/2H or DW/1H no nirn. It's all in the combined efforts of bow speed + nirn + offensive synergy of 2H. Roll dodge is not the culprit here.

Tl;DR: What I'm saying is that ZOS needs to look at the overwhelming efficiency of 2H/Bow. Spruce up 1H / DW a bit, maybe remove the speed buff stack from bow (the mobility from bow is insane). And remove nirn from the game, and tone down magicka damage slightly and balance out phsyical damage a bit.

The problem is not regen or roll dodge.

I think what odinforge is saying is that stamina builds need an overall Nerf

OdinForge

@Bfish22090 yeah, and while we're at it just replace every weapon with a rubber chicken complete with the squeak effect too. And when we use it to attack a Sorc, it blows up in our face.

#BalanceOrRiot, #RememberWhenStaminaDidn'tExist #NoSorcEverComplainedThen

Bfish22090

Don't worry they're going to Nerf stamina soon.

#magickanightblade

Tors

OdinForge wrote: »

@Bfish22090 yeah, and while we're at it just replace every weapon with a rubber chicken complete with the squeak effect too. And when we use it to attack a Sorc, it blows up in our face.

No, this would be extremely silly. How can we improove rubber chickens to gold? Rubber chickens are plainly neither blacksmithing nor woodworking.

Please think before you make such ideas

Sausage

Sure, but first tell me how to kill DK tank? Ive seen tanks taking beating from 10+ and getting away.

OdinForge

Tors wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

@Bfish22090 yeah, and while we're at it just replace every weapon with a rubber chicken complete with the squeak effect too. And when we use it to attack a Sorc, it blows up in our face.

No, this would be extremely silly. How can we improove rubber chickens to gold? Rubber chickens are plainly neither blacksmithing nor woodworking.

Please think before you make such ideas

You're right, i shouldn't even make jokes like that.

Least our first update in months is actually rubber chicken weapons.

Tors

Sausage wrote: »

Sure, but first tell me how to kill DK tank? Ive seen tanks taking beating from 10+ and getting away.

Rubber chicken?

Sausage

Tors wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Sure, but first tell me how to kill DK tank? Ive seen tanks taking beating from 10+ and getting away.

Rubber chicken?

What?

I really hope Zen doesnt listen these. Its better that theres annoying stuff for everyone, than finding the non-existence balance what dozens of MMO have tried before.

Bfish22090

Maybe you should tag Jessica

OdinForge wrote: »

@Bfish22090 yeah, and while we're at it just replace every weapon with a rubber chicken complete with the squeak effect too. And when we use it to attack a Sorc, it blows up in our face.

#BalanceOrRiot, #RememberWhenStaminaDidn'tExist #NoSorcEverComplainedThen

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Can we get an official response on this?

PBpsy

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Don't worry they're going to Nerf stamina soon.

#magickanightblade

It's kind of sad that as a day one MNB the only thing I have to look forward regarding this class are stamina nerfs.
Bring them on ZOS we needs some intereteinmentz!!!!

Samadhi

Jeckll wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I am a stamina bld nightblade and i dont know how some of these guys are dodgerolling as much as the can,
Yes i die regularly ...

I have all my attribute points into stamina and all my armour enchants are into magicka. I have around 27 - 30 k stamina and cannot roll dodge as much as others......

And it is flipping frustrating, trying to hit someone with a bow that is diving around.

Woodelf +21%
Werwolf +15%
Nightblade passive +30%

Plus sets and Regen buff drinks. It's not about max Stamina, its about regenerating more than a Dodge roll costs.


To topic: It's annoying but not the worst part of PvP. Hope they fix other things first tbh.

Woodelf +21%
Werewolf +15%
Templar Radiant Aura +10% (minor buff for all regen stats) +20% (major buff for health and stamina regen)

Woodelf +21%
Werewolf +15%
Dragonknight Green Dragon Blood +20% (also provides health regen and burst healing)
Dragonknight passive Helping Hands restores 5% of Max Stamina stat as burst Stamina regeneration when casting an Earthen Heart ability (note: this includes the skill Igneous Shield which provides damage mitigation and makes Rally/Vigor heal for more damage for a few seconds)

Sorcerer provides no additional benefits for Class Stamina management, but my Bosmer Sorcerer still does pretty good due to having access to Boundless Storm for a mobility edge.

With the right gear sets, enchantments, and drinks basically any class can do this sort of build.

Nightblade's biggest advantage is the ability to stack a Stamina potion on top of this, which provides slightly more flexibility in terms of choosing sets.

Templar's biggest advantages are receiving a 6% Weapon Damage buff from Balanced Warrior passive, a solid toolkit of skills, and a decently powerful emergency burst heal when using Way of Air set (since the set buffs both Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by significant values after roll dodging, a Templar can use some Magicka for burst healing rather than blowing additional Stamina on burst from Rally stacked with Vigor).

Dragonknight's biggest advantages is strong active Stamina management mixed with solid health management.

Sorcerer's biggest advantage is speed buff and enhanced Heavy Attack synergy and Max Stamina stat if utilizing Bound Armaments -- Sorcerer has some of the lowest Stamina build synergy though.

Presently, Sorcerer is my favourite to run a Stamina build on (perhaps due to comparative level of challenge -- likely also due to loving Boundless Storm and its duration on the speed buff).
My Templar performs the best for me though -- the synergy on Power Of The Light --> Binding Javelin --> Critical Rush --> Executioner is pretty hilarious; Power of the Light scaling its damage bonus off of Stamina pool makes the burst damage synergy pretty cruel. Add in Purifying Ritual (removal of negative effects) and Channeled Focus (+400 Magicka regen per two seconds independent of all other Magicka regen buffs along with an armour buff) and Templar has a great and diverse toolkit.

Can agree roll dodging is not the worst part of PvP, but there is currently an imbalance towards Stamina that deserves to be looked at.

Sureshawt

Sharee wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Stamina builds can invest everything into damage, and still have the highest sustain

Sorcerers, shields.

And contrary to popular opinion, a stamina build that invests everything into damage cannot dodge roll forever.

Yes and what does the Sorcerer shield require ? Right, Sustain You need full cost reduction to make this work or you will simply burn your Magicka for nothing in a few seconds. If you go full damage, your shields will be extremely expensive and you will burn your Magicka for shields instead of doing damage.

Stamina builds don't have this problem. They can go full damage and don't have any drawbacks.

And that is where you are wrong. Stamina builds have exactly the same problem. Go full regen - your damage will suffer. Go full damage, and you can not roll forever. It is not possible to have both at the same time.

Also another thing the OP neglects to mention is that Sorcerer, shields build can deal damage AND avoid damage at the same time with block/casting/stacked shields. Dodge rollers can only avoid damage while dodging.

Sureshawt

Deleted

Lyzaaa

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

If they are dodging, blocking, sprinting or breaking free they are burning resources and not hitting you.

If they are needing to use break free then clearly you ARE hitting them.

If they are that heavily teched towards stamina regen then they are weak in other areas find the, exploit them, kill them.

For example have you heard of AOE and being mobile in combat yourself?

I would suggest you learn to habdle it in the same way we have to deal with stacked shields, bolting sorcs, perma-talons, jesus beams, wrecking blow spamming or any other tactic that is effective but sometimes annoying in the current meta.

Dodge isn't the problem tho its the insane regen Nightblade's get. The fact they have that regen along with high burst, sustained damage, fear ( insane cc

---

stamina drain ) they nearly always get out on top.

And you act as if you're the only class that has to do deal with stacked shields or the jesus beam. You have a build in cleanse in dark cloak.. jesus beam wut? Surely it isnt the most effective but at least its somethign u have over the other classes. WB spam? just dodgeroll.

oh i forgot perma talons.. Does anyone even do that nowadays? Oh and you know what counters talons? dodgeroll LOL

Seriously, NB's on the forums that act as if they're weak or anything ilke that.. must be the worst players on the planet. Instant no respect if you're act whiny about that class.

Yes Sorc is the most powerful and easy to play, but Nb isnt far off it. Theres a huge gap between DK/temp compared to Sorc/NB.

Lyzaaa

Sharee wrote: »

Preyfar wrote: »

Roll dodger here. Radiant Destruction and Soul Assault can do serious damager to a roll dodger, but we can also instantly stop that damage by throwing up a cloak. It stops the damage instantly, and we can activate the cloak mid-dodge.

Roll dodge works like sprint: while you are doing it, all your abilities are disabled. You can not even drink a potion until the roll completes. So no, nightblades can not activate a cloak(or anything else for that matter) mid-dodge.

What he means is basicly using it before u dodgeroll in a certain sync, it basicly plays your animation while u dodgeroll much as other instant skills. No you cant use skills while dodgerolling but u can use it just before you start rolling so the animation it'd normally would do is now actually a dodgeroll.

Heruthema

It comes down to 'Nerf what you can not kill'. I remember when NB's were the bane of the classes. No one wanted them in their groups. Now they have some abilities and skills that make them able to compete and the Nerf Squad comes out and starts the campaign to put them back in their place.
Instead of Nerf try to learn skills and new ways of competing with them.

nastuug

I always enjoy watching a zerg chase them. I end up laughing hysterically at the jittering of the character model while they are escaping as the herd chases for eternity, lol.

Varicite

Lyzaaa wrote: »

Dodge isn't the problem tho its the insane regen Nightblade's get.

DK has access to 20% stam regen on top of a 33% burst heal when low on health, as well as 5% stam restoration when casting ANY Earthen Heart ability (1 of which is a damage shield that also boosts their healing and you'd be a fool not to be using regularly).

Templar has access to 10% health, stam, AND magicka regen passively or activate near corpses for burst stam / health restore. You'd be silly not to be slotting this ability as a Stamplar. They also have a passive 4% stam / magicka / ult cost reduction (and a passive 6% weapon damage increase, but this is about regen).

NB has 30% passive stam regen and a really crappy ability that you can slot for 10% more stam regen if you don't mind wasting a skillbar slot on something that won't be useful except for the buff (I don't slot this, but some people do).

NB regen isn't really all that "insane" when compared to DK and Templar, it's about 10% more normally, but DK / Temp versions come w/ extremely useful secondary effects that NBs do not have access to. I'd call it a wash.

NB regen management is easier, however, because it is passive. I will certainly concede that point.

dafox187

if there bothering u be man and get a staff

IcyDeadPeople

Knootewoot wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

What I really want to know is how some NB's seem to stay stealhed forever. Sometimes I just die with (what it seems) nobody around and the recap shows 5 times "concealed weapon".

It's possible for magicka nightblade builds to get their magicka regen above the cost of dark cloak.
.

nastuug

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

What I really want to know is how some NB's seem to stay stealhed forever. Sometimes I just die with (what it seems) nobody around and the recap shows 5 times "concealed weapon".

It's possible for magicka nightblade builds to get their magicka regen above the cost of dark cloak.

This was fun to build around, but sacrificed so much dmg...

AssaultLemming

The fix here is obvious, give dodge roll the bolt escape treatment and make dodge rolls cost more stamina the more you roll...This being said while I find these pesky nbs a bit annoying I don't find them a threat on my sorc, either I kill them, force a retreat, or it's a standoff. Pretty rare for that type of build to kill me one on one.

nastuug

AssaultLemming wrote: »

The fix here is obvious, give dodge roll the bolt escape treatment and make dodge rolls cost more stamina the more you roll...This being said while I find these pesky nbs a bit annoying I don't find them a threat on my sorc, either I kill them, force a retreat, or it's a standoff. Pretty rare for that type of build to kill me one on one.

Except that dodge roll is not exclusive to a specific class where bolt escape is...

Mashille

How To Beat Dodge Rollers:

- Radiant Destruction

nastuug

keybaud wrote: »

How To Beat Dodge Rollers:

- Radiant Destruction
- Zerg

Fixed it for you.