Spell Dmg vs Weapon Dmg Imbalances -- *Updated for Patch 2.1*

Forestd16b14_ESO

What I find weird is how does duel wielding 2 swords give more spell power that a actual magical staff.

Minno

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

What I find weird is how does duel wielding 2 swords give more spell power that a actual magical staff.

Battlemages.

Cathexis

Hey I'd been thinking about this for a while and I just wanted to propose maybe also adding a section or creating a second thread on the ulti imbalance for spell damage vs weapon damage users (and the related problems of spell pierce being required for magic damage ultimates and all the offensive ultimates being magic damage).

Jules

Updated

Jade1986

So that's why I am getting stomped all over the place in pvp. I guess it is truly pointless to go in before v16 then cuz my pure stamina no magic build just gets used as a mop.

Akinos

Good info Jules, I knew stamina users had more benefits then magicka users, but not that much more lol. It's ridiculous.

Jules

Akinos wrote: »

Good info Jules, I knew stamina users had more benefits then magicka users, but not that much more lol. It's ridiculous.

It truly is. Compound this with the fact that the two advantages Magicka users had over stam were shields and healing and both were nerfed in 2.1, and basically GG. Reroll.

Alcast

Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>

Alcast

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

Kova

@Alcast . 2h build I'm guessing?

Domander

Zsymon wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think you are overlooking quite a few utilities that are based on Stamina.

Tell me one good utility spell that is based on stamina.

Vigor

Well, good point, but apart from Rally and Vigor the selection is extremely thin, and there isn't a single good class utility spell based on stamina. There are countless powerful utility spells used by magicka builds, and barely any stamina skills that offer utility, available. You're not going to convince me that spell utility isn't superior by far.

If they increase spell damage or lower weapon damage, you're going to see the large decline in stamina builds that's already happening, take a sharp turn for the worst.

There are a great many class abilities that do not scale in power with max magicka, which means that stamina can/should use them as well. What else are you going to use that magicka for?

Turelus

I hear there are these things called soft-caps and diminishing returns which some games use.

Jules

Alcast wrote: »

Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.

Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.

Alcast

Jules wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.

Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.

In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.

DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.

Leandor

Please do not disregard the scaling of the actual damage of abilities. If I need 4k weapon damage to get the same size max hits on an average equipped opponent like I get with 3k spell damage, both considering the most heavy hitting abilities for each specialization (which I guess would be WB for stamina and CF or Dark Flare for magicka), then the 4k weapon damage and 3k spell damage are effectively equivalent and balanced.

All comparisons made here in the forums always consider that character sheet number only, never the actual effect in damage output. As was mentioned, it is easy to stack magicka to 40k while still getting a good chunk of spell damage in, but it is nigh impossible to reach 6k weapon damage while still getting more than 30k stamina. 10k resources are roughly equivalent to 1k damage stat in regards to actual effect.

Unless these comparisons are based on the effective damage of abilities on an average geared opponent (with similar spell resistance and physical resistance values), the claims of advantages for weapon damage stacking can't be taken seriously.

Alcast

1Spell/Weapdamage=10,5 Magicka/Stamina

Jules

Leandor wrote: »

Please do not disregard the scaling of the actual damage of abilities. If I need 4k weapon damage to get the same size max hits on an average equipped opponent like I get with 3k spell damage, both considering the most heavy hitting abilities for each specialization (which I guess would be WB for stamina and CF or Dark Flare for magicka), then the 4k weapon damage and 3k spell damage are effectively equivalent and balanced.

All comparisons made here in the forums always consider that character sheet number only, never the actual effect in damage output. As was mentioned, it is easy to stack magicka to 40k while still getting a good chunk of spell damage in, but it is nigh impossible to reach 6k weapon damage while still getting more than 30k stamina. 10k resources are roughly equivalent to 1k damage stat in regards to actual effect.

Unless these comparisons are based on the effective damage of abilities on an average geared opponent (with similar spell resistance and physical resistance values), the claims of advantages for weapon damage stacking can't be taken seriously.

Alcast wrote: »

1Spell/Weapdamage=10,5 Magicka/Stamina

I'm aware of the conversion. But most magicka builds (aside from perhaps sorcs) run around 33-35k magicka in PVP. Most run food because

1. Achieving reasonable magicka regen is easy as many of our dps sets are lumped in with regen bonuses as well.
2. The reduction of output damage noted from running drinks on a magicka build is extremely noticeable.

Hypothetically,
Let's assume most stam builds run at approximately 28k stamina.
Magicka builds running at 33k magicka.
Let's call it a difference of 5k main resource.

if 1 damage = 10.5 resource



So yes, this should absolutely be taken into account. However the difference in stacking capabilities of weapon/spell damage does not equate to a mere 476 damage difference. More like thousands.

---

Being conservative, I used these hypothetical numbers to illustrate how much more magicka one would need to overcome the difference in damage.
Average Magicka user's spell damage= 2.6k
Average Stamina user's weapon damage= 4k
Difference = 1.4k damage

if 1 damage = 10.5 resource


Can you honestly say the average magicka user has almost 15k MORE max resource??? Come on.

---

For something actually real and not hypothetical, and just to add to the ridiculousness:
I sit at 2.7k spell damage buffed. Anti sits at 5.9k weapon damage buffed.
A difference of 3.2k damage

if 1 damage = 10.5 resource


Yeah. I don't have 33,600 more magicka than he has stam.

_Chaos

Jules wrote: »

Being conservative, I used these hypothetical numbers to illustrate how much more magicka one would need to overcome the difference in damage.
Average Magicka user's spell damage= 2.6k
Average Stamina user's weapon damage= 4k
Difference = 1.4k damage

if 1 damage = 10.5 resource

Great visual Jules! Although I think the first tables legend is slightly off, should it not read:

X=14,700 resource to outweigh a difference of 1.4K damage

Quady

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Jules

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Being conservative, I used these hypothetical numbers to illustrate how much more magicka one would need to overcome the difference in damage.
Average Magicka user's spell damage= 2.6k
Average Stamina user's weapon damage= 4k
Difference = 1.4k damage

if 1 damage = 10.5 resource

Great visual Jules! Although I think the first tables legend is slightly off, should it not read:

X=14,700 resource to outweigh a difference of 1.4K damage

yes, and fixed. ty

Leandor

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

olsborg

Just gonna leave this here again.

From champion points you can decrease the damage you take from magic damage and fire,shock and cold damage, but you cannot decrease the dmg you take from physical damage.

Jules

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I presume you mean whip and surprise attack and not CF and WB.
And I will work on getting data concerning this.

Edit: but if you think spell and weapon damage have "no direct impact on gameplay" then I don't even think I know what to tell you.

Leandor

Jules wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I presume you mean whip and surprise attack and not CF and WB.
And I will work on getting data concerning this.

Edit: but if you think spell and weapon damage have "no direct impact on gameplay" then I don't even think I know what to tell you.

Why deliberately misunderstand me? You know exactly what I mean. Having 6k weapon damage on the char screen does not equate to dealing 6000 damage with a weapon attack. It is hidden in a formula, that has several variables and different scaling factors for different abilities. The damage difference between a surprise attack at 4000 weapon damage stat and a surprise attack with 6000 weapon damage stat, while having everything else constant, is not 2000, but some other number.

The weapon damage stat (or spell damage stat) on the character screen is several layers removed from the damage an ability using it to scale off, is effecting. I am very sure you are intelligent enough to understand that this is what I meant with "no direct impact on gameplay".

EDIT: Oh, and while we're at it: compare surprise attack and concealed weapon.

Lava_Croft

olsborg wrote: »

Just gonna leave this here again.

From champion points you can decrease the damage you take from magic damage and fire,shock and cold damage, but you cannot decrease the dmg you take from physical damage.

You can. There's several passives that add to your armor. Yes, they are ***.

Bashev

Lava_Croft wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Just gonna leave this here again.

From champion points you can decrease the damage you take from magic damage and fire,shock and cold damage, but you cannot decrease the dmg you take from physical damage.

You can. There's several passives that add to your armor. Yes, they are ***.

You know that it is not the same? I guess it is a troll post.

frozywozy

Zsymon wrote: »

There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.

That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)

Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.

With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.

In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.

Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?

These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).

A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.

You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.

You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.

People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.

Your explanation makes no sense at all.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.

Alcast wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.

Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.

In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.

DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.

I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles in 1vX because they don't have to raise their magicka to survive (streak does the job) and can deal way higher damage.

Yonkit

The new sets benefit casters more than stam users. Essence thief is the only one worth a damn but it's a sustain and not a dd set.

It's time to give this up. Sorcs are still a thing. Magicka templars are in my opinion stronger than stamplars again. My stamblade is significantly weaker than in 1.6 (though I'm doing fine, not complaining just can't batroll dozens), and most chatter on casterblades is that they're so annoying and strong (which of course I don't get because casterblades seem weak as *** to me).

It's time to give up the persecution complex in this thread. There's a hot DK thread that's getting lots of good qq's that needs your attention.

Leandor

@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.

Takllin

frozywozy wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.

That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)

Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.

With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.

In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.

Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?

These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).

A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.

You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.

You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.

People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.

Your explanation makes no sense at all.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.

Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.

For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.

Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime