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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Spell Dmg vs Weapon Dmg Imbalances -- *Updated for Patch 2.1*
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Takllin✭✭✭✭✭Huckdabuck wrote: »I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.
Ridiculous V. Retotted
Jules that sig.....just EWWWWWWWWW. Something just looks so wrong in it.....what is it? Oh yeah the non bella toon. Must fix ASAP.
Ugh, I was drunk that day.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.
I look forward to a S+B SD buff then.
Yeah seriously. Sounds like a bunch of phooey that they made up to cover the unintended +SD that 2h & DW got.
Well following their logic it actually makes sense that S+B has less spell damage than 2H/DW. You're trading a weapon for a shield, offense for defense. You are taking away some of the risk of taking damage at melee range so your damage should be lower.Edited by Takllin on 28 September 2015 17:22Jadokis - AD Redguard DK v16 AR 18
Jàsènn - AD Orc Templar 47 AR 10
Jessèn - AD Dunmer DK v16 AR 9 - Former Empress of Blackwater Blade
Tekllin - AD Altmer Sorcerer v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Tekklin - AD Bosmer Nightblade v16 AR 12 (Ret.)
Jasenn - DC Imperial Templar v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Jasènn - DC Orc Sorcerer v16 AR 15 (Ret.)2 -
xANTIxMATTERx✭✭✭
That wasn't with ravagers. I have always thought that is a stupid set to run in PVP for a NB because you can't control initiating a fight with it already procced. I don't want to just cross my fingers and hope it procs. Also, I am a khajiit so no extra % to max stam or health. Either way, the point of the pic was for me to get my weapon damage as high as possible so I used the molag kena proc.
Anti-Matter | Nightblade | AR 40 | Flawless Conqueror | Former Emperor x 2Anti-Psychotic | Stamplar | AR 25 | Former EmperorAnti-Matter | Stam DK | AR 18 | Former EmperorAnti-Gravity | Stam Sorcerer | AR 10 | Flawless ConquerorAnti-Freeze | Magicka DK | Flawless ConquerorAnti-One | Magicka Sorc | Flawless ConquerorAnti-Matter | Magplar | Shehai ShattererOfficer of Haxus | NAMember of The Order of Mundus | NAFormer Member of Havoc, IR, Learn 2 Play and Crown Store Heroshttps://twitch.tv/ANTIxMATTERMy Latest PVP Video: https://youtu.be/0M_Q3AgzPRA1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
It used to....and everyone cried about the best damage dealing weapon being Resto Staff.
RIP Tree of Life ) =
Destro abilities already have the best passives with spell piercing and they are ranged.
In my experience in 2.1 so far I'm not seeing an imbalance between stam and magicka.
If I had to bet on a class being the best right now I'd pick a magicka sorc.
BTW My NB doesn't even break 3K weapon damage and I kill people just fine.
What you guys don't see in these screenshots with insane stats are the lack of other utilities. Are they running @40% Crit resistance like I am? Nope. Do they have set bonuses that help their team mates or High sustain? Nope. Most of the time I'm PvPing I'm sporting over 4K Stamina regen. These 1-shot wonders go at me for a good 30 seconds and after block, block, dodge roll, dodge roll, block block, they start heavy attacking me because they're out of resources, and then I switch to offense.
6K Weapon damage doesn't hit anywhere close to twice what 3K Weapon damage hits for.
Sorry, I can't follow all the tangents in this thread but I disagree with the premise of an unbalance between magicka and stamina right now.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube2 -
bertenburnyb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Zos logic = potatoHaze Ramoran Dunmer Dragonknight Tank/Dps – Smoked-Da-Herb Saxheel Templar Tank/Healer
Red Diamond, Protect us 'til the end (EU EP Thorn)1 -
blabafat✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Fire Cloak - VR12 DK - Nord - EP
Ámeer - VR15 Templar - Imperial - AD
The Mágician - VR16 Templar - Imperial DC
Magíc - VR16 DK - Dark Elf - DC
Àmeer - VR16 Templar - High Elf - DC
ámeer - VR16 Templar - High Elf - AD
Æ ámeer - VR16 Templar - High Elf - EP
Ameer Flow - Level 34 Nightblade - High Elf - EP
Youtube:
https://youtube.com/channel/UCFNmXCgmTVo-T-p1BIVLxbQ0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.Edited by Jules on 29 September 2015 16:061 -
Yonkit✭✭✭✭✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
Has an Alter Ego in the form of a very large quadrupedal black & white Bear.0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
That's what we're going with? Heavy weaving?
Heavy weaving with a destro doesn't come close to making these two equivalent.0 -
_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
That's what we're going with? Heavy weaving?
Heavy weaving with a destro doesn't come close to making these two equivalent.
'Chaos0 -
Yonkit✭✭✭✭✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
That's what we're going with? Heavy weaving?
Heavy weaving with a destro doesn't come close to making these two equivalent.
You kidding me? That's an l2p issue jules. Half my kills come from heavy weaves in small group situations. You can't simply say "THIS ADVANTAGE DOESN'T COUNT" as if that's the ipso facto word on the difference between dw and destro staff. Spell power builds exist, they can reach ungodly numbers just like stam builds. The raw dps output of caster DK's, as far as I can tell, is still better than the most glass cannon of glass cannon stam builds. One of the major reasons for that is the heavy weave combined with molten armaments. Top shelf dps potential is there, has always been there, will always be there for casters. Do the things necessary to get it and become a glass cannon like me, OR stop stressing about the lack of power you have in a sustain build. And if you think that stam defense/sustain while being bursty is still a thing.... then you're not really playing stam. Now if you want to survive as a burst stam you need to be wily.
Has an Alter Ego in the form of a very large quadrupedal black & white Bear.3 -
Takllin✭✭✭✭✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
That's what we're going with? Heavy weaving?
Heavy weaving with a destro doesn't come close to making these two equivalent.
Magicka builds do have the highest PvE DPS...
I understand that in PvP it's a bit of a different story, but right now the gap between Magicka and Stamina is far wider in PvE than in PvP. So anything you do for PvP will have side affects in PvE, which already needs to be looked at for ways that Stamina can catch up to Magicka builds.
That's my major issue here. If Magicka builds were behind significantly in PvE, then sure buff them up to close the gap. It's not though so you can't just buff it or we go back to the old days where everyone is running around as a magicka build with either Destro/Resto or double Destro. Personally, I like this much better.Jadokis - AD Redguard DK v16 AR 18
Jàsènn - AD Orc Templar 47 AR 10
Jessèn - AD Dunmer DK v16 AR 9 - Former Empress of Blackwater Blade
Tekllin - AD Altmer Sorcerer v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Tekklin - AD Bosmer Nightblade v16 AR 12 (Ret.)
Jasenn - DC Imperial Templar v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Jasènn - DC Orc Sorcerer v16 AR 15 (Ret.)2 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
That's what we're going with? Heavy weaving?
Heavy weaving with a destro doesn't come close to making these two equivalent.
It doesn't make them equivalent, correct.
From a strictly damage point of view, the highest DPS spec for DK in PvE gains ~10-12% of its damage from medium/heavy weaves -- meaning that DW or 2H are suboptimum in the static case for magicka DK even though they offer >400 more spell damage.1 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Magicka users (Sorcs, Templars, Nightblades) use it because it gives a higher damage output than a staff does increased Tooltip damage, increased spell damage is better than the elemental effect you get from a staff, however this doesn't work for Dragonknights, they benefit far too much from a Destruction Staff. There are no downsides to increasing your damage output by using something that isn't a Destruction Staff, this Meta has been around for quite some time a lot of people have accustomed to it by now.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
It is ridiculous but then again, I don't really want to be melee spamming puncturing sweep and weaving with my staff that just feels off, it's way more easier using my sword/dual.
The only thing you miss out from by not using a Destruction Staff is is Penetrating Magic Passive which ignores 10% of an enemy's Spell Resistance. Yes that is good but when you add in 2 extra slots from using Dual and the Spell Damage increase, then that becomes weaker.
Conclusion; you don't have to use a sword, you use it because it gives off more damage if you want to go that route, it has downsides like being forced to be Melee range and also has upsides increasing your damage. And dragonknights shouldn't be running around with a greatsword or dual swords#MOREORBS3 -
asneakybanana✭✭✭✭✭There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
That's what we're going with? Heavy weaving?
Heavy weaving with a destro doesn't come close to making these two equivalent.
You kidding me? That's an l2p issue jules. Half my kills come from heavy weaves in small group situations. You can't simply say "THIS ADVANTAGE DOESN'T COUNT" as if that's the ipso facto word on the difference between dw and destro staff. Spell power builds exist, they can reach ungodly numbers just like stam builds. The raw dps output of caster DK's, as far as I can tell, is still better than the most glass cannon of glass cannon stam builds. One of the major reasons for that is the heavy weave combined with molten armaments. Top shelf dps potential is there, has always been there, will always be there for casters. Do the things necessary to get it and become a glass cannon like me, OR stop stressing about the lack of power you have in a sustain build. And if you think that stam defense/sustain while being bursty is still a thing.... then you're not really playing stam. Now if you want to survive as a burst stam you need to be wily.
Stop trying to get me nerfed Yonk. Dks are hands down the worst pve dps in the game and need to have their abilities tuned up about 25% to make the in line with the rest of the classes. Also bring back old35% banner Asneakybanana AD DK Former emperor of Chrysamere and Chillrend. World first hardmode Hel'ra and Quake con winner (Alliance rank 25)Sweat Squad
Asneakyhabenero EP DK Former emperor of Thornblade, Haderus. World first vMA Dk clear (Alliance rank 39)
Asneakycucumber EP Sorc Former empress of Blackwater Bay and Trueflame (Alliance rank 32)
Asneakypineapple EP Temp Former empress of Azuras Star and Haderus (Alliance rank 22)
Asneakypickle EP NB Former empress of Trueflame (Alliance rank 47)
Crowned 27x on 12 different campaign cycles | 200M+ AP earned
Fastest AA clear ever: 5:42 | Fastest HRC clear ever: 5:27 | NA first HM MoL
609k Mag Sorc vMA
NA first Tick Tock Tormentor
NA first trinity (All No Death/HM/Speed run trials titles)
2x Tick Tock Tormentor1 -
Troneon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is probably one of the most unbalanced games I have ever played.Edited by Troneon on 1 October 2015 12:14PC EU ADMaster Crafter - Anything you need!!High Elf Magicka Templar Healer/DPS/TankTrials / Dungeons / PVP / Everything2 -
Yonkit✭✭✭✭✭asneakybanana wrote: »There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
That's what we're going with? Heavy weaving?
Heavy weaving with a destro doesn't come close to making these two equivalent.
You kidding me? That's an l2p issue jules. Half my kills come from heavy weaves in small group situations. You can't simply say "THIS ADVANTAGE DOESN'T COUNT" as if that's the ipso facto word on the difference between dw and destro staff. Spell power builds exist, they can reach ungodly numbers just like stam builds. The raw dps output of caster DK's, as far as I can tell, is still better than the most glass cannon of glass cannon stam builds. One of the major reasons for that is the heavy weave combined with molten armaments. Top shelf dps potential is there, has always been there, will always be there for casters. Do the things necessary to get it and become a glass cannon like me, OR stop stressing about the lack of power you have in a sustain build. And if you think that stam defense/sustain while being bursty is still a thing.... then you're not really playing stam. Now if you want to survive as a burst stam you need to be wily.
Stop trying to get me nerfed Yonk. Dks are hands down the worst pve dps in the game and need to have their abilities tuned up about 25% to make the in line with the rest of the classes. Also bring back old35% banner
See I'm scared some nubbie nub is going to read this and believe it's true. God forbid it's a nubbie nub dev who peeks onto the forum for their once a month visit and now thinks that DK dps really is low compared to all others.
Has an Alter Ego in the form of a very large quadrupedal black & white Bear.2 -
AlcastClass Representativeasneakybanana wrote: »There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetimeNo imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.
I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.
Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.
In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.
DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.
Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.
That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)
Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.
With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.
In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.
Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).
A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.
You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.
You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.
People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.
Your explanation makes no sense at all.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.
If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:
How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.
That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.
But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.
Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.
I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.
Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.
For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.
Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime
L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build
Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.
I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.
Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.
You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.
@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.
There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.I agree with everything you stated here
Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers
Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.
Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way
Well here is the thing:
When you use Dual Wield/2H over Destro what do you gain?
Spell damage
What do you lose?
Sustained DPS with crushing shock, and potentially some magicka sustain(if you are killing people with destro)
Now, if you had BOTH of those things, that would be too strong, and it would eliminate diverse builds. EVERY Magicka build would be running Destro Staff. Currently, there are magicka builds running EVERY Weapon because each weapon has something to offer, for potentially all types of builds.
Blab, ilu. But your logic is flawed.
You can't just use the "well then it'd be too op" argument but fail to recognize how stamina weapons work.
Please do not forget that meanwhile, DW has:
-Major brutality buff
-Flying blade, strong range
-Weapon Damage bonus from equipping
-Strongest AOE (that is almost 2x impulse range and also an execute)
All within the same weapon line.
I think I was probably the most prolific user of flying blade in the last patch, but even I have turned away from it since 1.7 hit because it didn't suit the versatility needs that I wanted.
The other big boon to destro staff are the heavy weaves which can be done from any range, which makes it a much more complete weapon than just DW. For IC and them tight corners this doesn't matter as much, but I don't ever see as many good fights in the sewers, so the DW works fine for there.
That's what we're going with? Heavy weaving?
Heavy weaving with a destro doesn't come close to making these two equivalent.
You kidding me? That's an l2p issue jules. Half my kills come from heavy weaves in small group situations. You can't simply say "THIS ADVANTAGE DOESN'T COUNT" as if that's the ipso facto word on the difference between dw and destro staff. Spell power builds exist, they can reach ungodly numbers just like stam builds. The raw dps output of caster DK's, as far as I can tell, is still better than the most glass cannon of glass cannon stam builds. One of the major reasons for that is the heavy weave combined with molten armaments. Top shelf dps potential is there, has always been there, will always be there for casters. Do the things necessary to get it and become a glass cannon like me, OR stop stressing about the lack of power you have in a sustain build. And if you think that stam defense/sustain while being bursty is still a thing.... then you're not really playing stam. Now if you want to survive as a burst stam you need to be wily.
Stop trying to get me nerfed Yonk. Dks are hands down the worst pve dps in the game and need to have their abilities tuned up about 25% to make the in line with the rest of the classes. Also bring back old35% banner
Dks are totally fine in PvE. Stamina/Magicka DK even one of the better ones for sustained dps on fights like Serpent
Tho not sure if that comment was sarcastic >.>Edited by Alcast on 1 October 2015 16:22https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭Destro penetration only works with destro skills. Currently the only destro skill worth a damn is crushing shock. You can use melee weapon(s) with trapping webs to maintain ranged sustained dps.
Just sayin'.
Edited by Xeven on 1 October 2015 16:320 -
cschwingeb14_ESO✭✭✭✭Iirc, trapping webs costs 20-30% more magicka than CS. It also does less tooltip damage than CS (I might have compared it to FP), even with the DW damage bonus. And that's not counting destro passives or elemental CPEdited by cschwingeb14_ESO on 2 October 2015 21:380
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So I levelled my Sorc this weekend finally and played him for the first time really in 4+ Months.
After spending the past month in the sewers grinding on my Fully geared Stamina NB I decided to try it with my Sorc instead.
LOL. I couldn't believe how easy everything was. By the time I was got my bearings I was pulling entire rooms of mobs and AoEing them down like it was cracked wood cave. Something I had zero chance of doing on my NB. I cleared every boss in the dungeon solo. I cleared all the portals around Molag Bal, treasure chest portals, it was just easy. Once again, something impossible for me on my NB.
When Cinn signed on with her Sorc we destroyed sweepers with just us two, something impossible for us on my Stamblade/magicka templar combo. I guarantee we could have done Molag Baal just as easily.
33K (unempowered) overload crits. 25K Fire staff heavy attacks. 25K crystal Fragment procs. from 10% heal to full life instant heals. I almost felt like a God compared to my NB (although I still wouldn't want to fight my nightblade)
3522 Spell damage and all my gear isn't even V16 yet.
I think the premise of this thread may be backwards :P~
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube2 -
DannyLV702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So I levelled my Sorc this weekend finally and played him for the first time really in 4+ Months.
After spending the past month in the sewers grinding on my Fully geared Stamina NB I decided to try it with my Sorc instead.
LOL. I couldn't believe how easy everything was. By the time I was got my bearings I was pulling entire rooms of mobs and AoEing them down like it was cracked wood cave. Something I had zero chance of doing on my NB. I cleared every boss in the dungeon solo. I cleared all the portals around Molag Bal, treasure chest portals, it was just easy. Once again, something impossible for me on my NB.
When Cinn signed on with her Sorc we destroyed sweepers with just us two, something impossible for us on my Stamblade/magicka templar combo. I guarantee we could have done Molag Baal just as easily.
33K (unempowered) overload crits. 25K Fire staff heavy attacks. 25K crystal Fragment procs. from 10% heal to full life instant heals. I almost felt like a God compared to my NB (although I still wouldn't want to fight my nightblade)
3522 Spell damage and all my gear isn't even V16 yet.
I think the premise of this thread may be backwards :P~
i really want to see screenshots of your 25k procd frags. I feel you're exaggerating everything you said to a degree just to make your NB seem like a defenseless little fella.
Sounds like complete BS to be honest...Edited by DannyLV702 on 5 October 2015 14:023 -
twistedmonk✭✭✭The entire magic vs stamina was poorly implemented from day one. They have band-aided it with duct tape (stamina morphs).
The fact that they haven't a) normalized 2-hander weapons to all have the same base damage b) fixed destruction staff.
sad panda0 -
''wanderlustx5 wrote: »Kind of like there is no mundis stone that give stamina regen.
Another incredible oversight. There absolutely should be a stamina regen mundus.
Didnt the serpent stone get changed from Health regen to stamina regen with the IC patch?
Loki Ironheart
Loki Firespitter
Gattica!!0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DannyLV702 wrote: »So I levelled my Sorc this weekend finally and played him for the first time really in 4+ Months.
After spending the past month in the sewers grinding on my Fully geared Stamina NB I decided to try it with my Sorc instead.
LOL. I couldn't believe how easy everything was. By the time I was got my bearings I was pulling entire rooms of mobs and AoEing them down like it was cracked wood cave. Something I had zero chance of doing on my NB. I cleared every boss in the dungeon solo. I cleared all the portals around Molag Bal, treasure chest portals, it was just easy. Once again, something impossible for me on my NB.
When Cinn signed on with her Sorc we destroyed sweepers with just us two, something impossible for us on my Stamblade/magicka templar combo. I guarantee we could have done Molag Baal just as easily.
33K (unempowered) overload crits. 25K Fire staff heavy attacks. 25K crystal Fragment procs. from 10% heal to full life instant heals. I almost felt like a God compared to my NB (although I still wouldn't want to fight my nightblade)
3522 Spell damage and all my gear isn't even V16 yet.
I think the premise of this thread may be backwards :P~
i really want to see screenshots of your 25k procd frags. I feel you're exaggerating everything you said to a degree just to make your NB seem like a defenseless little fella.
Sounds like complete BS to be honest...
Or you can just get 3522 Spell damage dump a ton of CP in Thaumaturge + Elfborn and do it yourself. It's simple math.
I've been playing my NB for 4 months nonstop, I don't have an agenda, I just found the experience for me to be enlightening and felt like sharing it. Take that for what you will.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »
''wanderlustx5 wrote: »Kind of like there is no mundis stone that give stamina regen.
Another incredible oversight. There absolutely should be a stamina regen mundus.
Didnt the serpent stone get changed from Health regen to stamina regen with the IC patch?
I just checked and indeed there is a mundus stone for in combat stamina recovery= Serpent
Loki Ironheart
Loki Firespitter
Gattica!!0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »
''wanderlustx5 wrote: »Kind of like there is no mundis stone that give stamina regen.
Another incredible oversight. There absolutely should be a stamina regen mundus.
Didnt the serpent stone get changed from Health regen to stamina regen with the IC patch?
Yes it did. When I made this thread originally, there was no spell damage mundus or stamina regen mundus.0 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So I levelled my Sorc this weekend finally and played him for the first time really in 4+ Months.
After spending the past month in the sewers grinding on my Fully geared Stamina NB I decided to try it with my Sorc instead.
LOL. I couldn't believe how easy everything was. By the time I was got my bearings I was pulling entire rooms of mobs and AoEing them down like it was cracked wood cave. Something I had zero chance of doing on my NB. I cleared every boss in the dungeon solo. I cleared all the portals around Molag Bal, treasure chest portals, it was just easy. Once again, something impossible for me on my NB.
When Cinn signed on with her Sorc we destroyed sweepers with just us two, something impossible for us on my Stamblade/magicka templar combo. I guarantee we could have done Molag Baal just as easily.
33K (unempowered) overload crits. 25K Fire staff heavy attacks. 25K crystal Fragment procs. from 10% heal to full life instant heals. I almost felt like a God compared to my NB (although I still wouldn't want to fight my nightblade)
3522 Spell damage and all my gear isn't even V16 yet.
I think the premise of this thread may be backwards :P~
I think the IC mobs just have tons of armor, a lot more than they have spell resist.
That and the fact that the IC mobs in melee range are quite painful, in many ways due to how hard they can hit and the fact that they use wrecking blows and other melee range abilities often. Most of their ranged abilities aren't very threatening.0
