Spell Dmg vs Weapon Dmg Imbalances -- *Updated for Patch 2.1*

Jules

I decided to necro/update this thread because lots has changed in the game since I first wrote it. I've also been spending a lot of time thinking about balance lately due to QQing about my DK, so alas, here we are. Some of the changes regarding spell and weapon damage in 2.1 have been a great step in the right direction and are much appreciated. However, spell and weapon damage are still no where near equalized. Hopefully this thread can serve as a tool to demonstrate their continued imbalance.


First and foremost, here is a screenshot of my good friend @xANTIxMATTERx 's character sheet. It was taken on 9/24/15. I challenge any magicka build to create, steal, theorycraft and/or google a magicka build that is on par to this and post it here.



No, you're not drunk or going blind. That really says almost 6k weapon damage and 2400 stam recovery. It's really real. And it's really not even as high as it can be. Another ~100-200 weapon damage could easily be squeezed out to accomplish the ultimate highest WD possible. I promise that with things as they currently are, it is impossible to get anywhere near this much spell damage. If you can prove me wrong, I will buy you some Taco Bell and sing of your graces for a lifetime. But you won't be able to.

With the removal of soft caps that came with 1.6, spell/weapon damage translates to the highest damage per value. The damage nerfs of 2.1 made this stat even more invaluable. It is by far the most worthwhile stat, and most players work their builds around this. However, there is a large disparity between spell and weapon damage that is rarely discussed and evaluated.

Magicka users are gimped across the board because of their complete lack of options to stack spell damage. Everything from mundus, to master weapons, to armor bonuses, to ultimate passives are all unavailable for spell damage.

In PVE, this is less of an issue because magicka players have toggles such as inner light/bound aegis that increase max magicka. These toggles make magicka pools much larger than stam pools, increasing the base damage of skills significantly and setting them on par with stamina skills.

However in PVP, the use of magicka toggles is hard to justify as it takes 2-4 slots and is generally thought of as a waste of space. On top of that, stacking ONLY magicka in PVP is not a viable option for all classes. Classes such as DK without an escape or many ranged options, NEED stamina in order to thrive. This limits the options incredibly. Magicka pools in PVP are 5-12k smaller than PVE, and damage stats are abysmal in comparison with their stamina counterparts.This issue, coupled with nirnhoned armor, makes playing a magicka build pretty grueling.

Some proof below.
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[b]MUNDUS[/b]

The Warrior: increases weapon damage
No available spell damage mundus The Apprentice: Now increases spell damage (thanks)

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
[b]SKILLS[/b]

That grant Major Brutality: +20% weapon damage
**Two Handed, Momentum (+morphs)**
NEW: **Dual Wield, Flying blade **
**Werewolf, Rousing Roar (Roar)**
Nightblade, Drain Power (+morphs)
Sorcerer, Surge (+morphs)

That grant Major Sorcery: +20% spell damage
**Mages Guild, Entropy (+morphs)**
Nightblade, Sap Essence (Drain Power)
Sorcerer, Power Surge (Surge)


** indicates availability to all classes
Rally, or momentum is greater than entropy for one reason only. It is applied to the caster vs having to be applied to target. Meaning that weapon damage can be buffed independently, and also in stealth. Entropy procs might of the guild, true, so this is debatable.

• Still not a single major sorcery buff open to all classes that is applied to self
• Still not a single major sorcery buff that comes from a magicka based weapon such as destro or resto

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
[b]WEAPON VS SPELL DAMAGE PROC SETS [/b]

In this patch they did make some attempts to make the new sets a little bit more balanced, so kudos to ZOS for that.

MOLAG KENA
Thankfully a balanced set.
But remember when the 1 piece was going to be only weapon damage? lol.



COMPARE AND CONTRAST
KAGRENAC'S HOPE & HUNDINGS RAGE



Both 5 pieces with damage sets. Hundings is clearly built for a stamina DD. Kagrenac's Hope seems to be built more for a healer, but it is suitable -I guess- for magicka DD as well. The unfortunate thing is that magicka DD is not given the courtesy of having a fully specced damage 5 piece that is equivalent to the Hundings. Magicka DD instead gets a 4 piece health bonus and less spell damage than the hundings, but with a quick res.


AGILITY & WILLPOWER


Even 3 piece jewelry sets for magicka and stamina. It's just like heaven.


OLD WEAPON DAMAGE SETS

RAVAGERS - Procs almost 100% of the time with caltrops down.


SKIRMISHER - Infinite dodge roll + supposedly no cool down on this set = basically +400 static weapon dmg



OLD SPELL DAMAGE SETS

STYGIAN - Really meh. It requires you are stealthed to get that 20% spell damage buff PER SPELL. So your first spell will hit hard, but will pull you out of stealth. I guess if you run invisibility pots and/or are a magicka nb it might be kinda ok. Otherwise much meh.


BURNING SPELLWEAVE - Procs for 200 spell damage. HOWEVER you would have to run this in place of martial knowledge 4 piece, meaning trading 354 static spell damage for a chance at 200. Obviously nonsensical.


---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
[b]ARMOR PASSIVES[/b]


Medium armor has this ^

* STILL No equivalents in light armor for increases to spell damage. *


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[b]CHAMPION POINTS[/b]

Though these do not affect character sheets, the champion point passives do largely affect actual damage inflicted on targets. Stamina users are entitled to "mighty" to increase all physical damage, where as magicka users must split their points between "elemental expert" for flame, frost, shock and "thaumaturge" for poison, disease, and magic- just to achieve the same outcome.








---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
[b]ULTIMATES[/b]





Flawless Dawnbreaker, 8% increase to weapon damage - available to all classes
No available ulti that increases spell damage when slotted except w/ expert mage passive, all sorcerer ulti's increase spell power by 2%


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[b]PASSIVES[/B]


Buffs weapon damage, again, does not buff spell damage. now buffs spell damage as well

CLASS PASSIVES TO COMPARE
DK PASSIVE:

Giving Weapon Damage to all allies within a 30M RANGE for 20 seconds

VS.

TEMPLAR PASSIVE:

Giving Spell Damage to all allies within a ??? range for 10 seconds


Just why.

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[b]MASTERS WEAPONS[/b]

2h, Bow, DW all increase weapon damage significantly.




Destro, Resto do not increase spell damage at all.


---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
[b]REGULAR WEAPONS[/b]

It's all pretty well known that dual wield and 2h are bugged/ridiculously designed. When equipped, they give a flat spell damage % as well as some of the passives working. I run DW on my DK currently and strictly for the spell damage. I want you all to consider what this means.

I am that spell-damage-starved that I have literally equipped stamina-based weapons from which I use no weapon abilities and receive mostly no passive advantage from ---JUST.TO.GET.THAT.SPELL.DAMAGE. Talk about scrounging.

The real question is: Why do destro and resto not have the highest spell damage auto-equip amount? Wouldn't that make 1000% more sense that a magicka user, using magicka weapons, would get max spell damage? Not have to use some gimpy half-useful weapon to achieve this? Stamina users can get weapon damage from these exact same weapons, the only difference is it is actually useful for them to do so. Another interesting thing to consider: the only available 2 piece weapons are stamina-based weapons. This means an extra gear piece and of course, the higher potential for more damage.






These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously). This and the fact that nirnhoned is greater than reinforced leaves Magicka based builds in a tough spot.

People are free to stack whichever stat they prefer in 1.6 with the removals of soft caps. Many people choose to stack damage, or regen. Sometimes it's best to balance both stats. However with this glaring disparity, those wishing to stack spell damage are at a distinct disadvantage. A few tweaks here and there are necessary to bring spell damage in line with weapon damage. Any changes would make a huge improvement in the viability and attractiveness of magicka builds in PVP. Any input/opinions on this matter are welcome.


Sincerely,
Jules

wanderlustx5

Kind of like there is no mundis stone that give stamina regen. And no great crafted sets for stamina regen, but plenty for majica. I seem to remember something about cyrodil's light, healer, arch mage, magnus, lamia, and touregs pack all having spell damage bonus never mind martial knowledge... I think some classes like sorc even have damage buffs to there skill passives. So yeah nothing is balanced, but every direction has an imbalance.

Domander

Seems pretty equal except for the ww buff, which shouldnt even be considered imo.

Magicka has the atronach stone, there's none for stam regen..

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/165289/magicka-based-vs-stamina-based/p1


This is why the damage is so different

Zsymon

You're forgetting that Martial Knowledge adds spell damage twice with 4 pieces, which is pretty good as well, and it has no prerequisites. Weapon damage has no equivalent of that.

I see absolutely no imbalance between weapon damage and spell damage. I am seeing 15K Crystal frags (tooltips, an instant cast one will do +20% damage), which is the same or more as maxed out Wrecking Blows. There are higher Wrecking Blows, but only from stealth.

olsborg

Ppl in my guild are bragging about reaching as much as 4.8k weapon dmg, theres no way in hell you can get spelldmg that high, hell its hard enough getting it to 2.5k and having a working build.

Samuel_Bantien

Zsymon wrote: »

You're forgetting that Martial Knowledge adds spell damage twice with 4 pieces, which is pretty good as well, and it has no prerequisites. Weapon damage has no equivalent of that.

I see absolutely no imbalance between weapon damage and spell damage. I am seeing 15K Crystal frags (tooltips, an instant cast one will do +20% damage), which is the same or more as maxed out Wrecking Blows. There are higher Wrecking Blows, but only from stealth.

Morag Tong's 2 and 4 piece set adds weapon damage. The 3 piece gives stamina. STAMINA MARTIAL KNOWLEDGE!

Samuel_Bantien

Jules wrote: »

No available sets that proc actual spell damage increases.



These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3-4k, where as spell damage is gimpy at apprx 2-3k generously. This & nirnhoned > reinforced leaves Magicka based builds in a tough spot. People are free to stack whichever stat they prefer in 1.6 with the removals of soft caps. Many people choose to stack damage, or regen. Sometimes it's best to balance both stats. However with this glaring disparity, those wishing to stack spell damage are at a distinct disadvantage. Few tweaks here and there to bring spell damage in line with weapon damage would make a huge difference.

Burning Spellweave 5 piece set gives a chance to proc spell damage, but the 5 piece is not comparable to the amount or ratio of Ravager or even the Hunding's Rage 5 piece.

Domander

Oh, and the way of air set gives 322 spell damage on dodge roll.

Teargrants

Domander wrote: »

Oh, and the way of air set gives 322 spell damage on dodge roll.

Because this is so useful to magicka builds:

Just to add this into my build would force me to lose a full 4 piece set, and the 4th piece of another set - which means I lose two 175 spell dmg set bonuses. In other words, I end up having to dodge roll to proc a boost that puts me at a lower spell dmg than I have in my normal armor set up. And on top of all of that, it's a medium armor set which excluded it from most magicka builds.

I myself run medium w/ my magicka setup, and this would be a bad set even for my build. The only usefulness this set has is for hybrid builds since it gives both spell & wep dmg procs - however ZOS pretty much screwed over hybrid builds by having max mag/stam factor into ability dmg to begin w/.

Yakidafi

@Zsymon @Samuel_Bantien Dreugh king slayer give with 3 set pieces 2x wp dmg ^^ or you only count medium armour?

Seeing how much dmg magicka users can do aswell as stamina I think it is mostly balanced, some seem very hard to kill

I seen magicka users with 35k magicka an highest stam I seen is 25k, so if stam got more more wp dmg is it not reasonable?

Jules

@Domander @Samuel_Bantien

My mistake. Burning spellweave and air are available. However, pretty questionable as far as whether they're viable. Atleast w air, if you're trying to stack spell damage there's probably a good chance you're a magicka build. Meaning relying on a dodge roll to get your spell damage increase seems impractical.

eliisra

Yeah, the gap between max spellpower and max potential weapon power is fairly huge. Not sure why any one would even argue about it unless blind, it's simple facts.

I'm curious if intentional, like ZoS testing stamina meta right now before console, or just derp and random itemization. Half the gear sets in this game lacks common sense, so I have no clue.

However, you can still push you're magicka slightly higher than your stamina, using skill passives. Even more if you're one if the last guys in ESO still slotting Siphoning skills. So it's not completely biased, only a bit.

Folkb

it should be apparent by now that ZOS doesn't know wtf they are doing regarding balance of any kind.

Samuel_Bantien

@Yakidafi @Jules
Depends on which race you play, Imperials and Redguards can get over 25k stam, but stacking weapon damage is a lot easier and gives more damage than just stacking stamina. Magicka does not give as much damage if you stacked it, Magicka users really need the spell damage and the only real way they can deal damage is by stacking both - Stamina does not need to, but can due to the surviveability from roll dodging (mitigating almost all damage except for a few abilities).

600 weapon damage for 10 seconds (Ravager) w/ 8% chance to proc (practically 100% proc chance w/ Caltrops) plus Momentum - 20% weapon damage(Self buff that requires no target) would be 720 weapon damage for 10 seconds. - Much easier to stack than say running Burning Spellweave which only gives 200 when you could run Torug's and get 173 spell damage w/o a proc. The magicka equivalent of Ravager is not viable, thus we must run set pieces to get a somewhat chance of fighting against the nirnhoned outbreak. inb4 Sorc 15k tooltip but lets ignore all the other classes.

To be honestly fair about this, yes, spell damage is meh due to only Sorcerer's having a self-applied buff "Surge" - same as weapon damage, but spell resistance/armor and champion points is the main difference between the two. Medium armor has 3/4ths the spell resistance and armor of Heavy while Light armor grants practically 0 armor or spell resistance. Light armor has 0 advantages over medium, we have annulment against other magicka builds but that is about it. Now with Champion points, the only thing Light Armor can really do against a Stamina build is place points into Less Crit damage (both builds can do this) and put points into adding more armor to their light armor (pitiful and useless) - Sorcs, DKs(barely), and Templars(barely due to having to run a glass cannon build to do any type of damage) can place points into shields. Now let's take a look at what Stamina builds can do against a magicka build: Less Crit damage taken, Less Fire/Shock/Ice Damage Taken, Less Magic Damage Taken, & add More Spell Resistance.

I would ask that ZoS gives each class a "Surge" type of ability where it does not require a target, and to switch spell resistances of Light and Medium armor to be able to combat each other - at this moment with 5 light and 2 heavy I am near hardcapped spell resistance without buffs at 32484 spell resistance - BALANCED?!. ZoS has also stated that nirnhoned will be nerfed #Soon - but probably next year by this rate. Magicka builds , Stamina builds about this post.

Ezareth

Highest crit ive hit on myL41 NB with 17k stamina and 0 weapon damage set bonuses = just over 29k wrecking blow from Stealth.

Highest crit on my VR14 sorc with 2 damage set bonuses , 28k magicka = just over 20k.

Balance is an interesting concept indeed.

Jules

People who deny the imbalance seem to not understand that 2≠4.
I challenge you all to get 4k spell damage on any build regardless of whether it's viable.
When you inevitably fail, come back and tell us all about it.

Jules

wanderlustx5 wrote: »

Kind of like there is no mundis stone that give stamina regen.

Another incredible oversight. There absolutely should be a stamina regen mundus.

Draxys

Seriously don't understand people defend the imbalance with gear examples (that are mostly not viable to boot). It's way easier to stack weapon dmg and not lose regen or raw stats, and it's way harder to mitigate stamina dmg. The mitigation might be the biggest issue.

Jules

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

@Yakidafi @Jules
Depends on which race you play, Imperials and Redguards can get over 25k stam, but stacking weapon damage is a lot easier and gives more damage than just stacking stamina. Magicka does not give as much damage if you stacked it, Magicka users really need the spell damage and the only real way they can deal damage is by stacking both - Stamina does not need to, but can due to the surviveability from roll dodging (mitigating almost all damage except for a few abilities).

Agree completely.
People don't seem to understand that power > resource > crit in terms of raw damage per value. The fact that stamina can stack ~1k more power is incredibly important and imbalanced.

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

600 weapon damage for 10 seconds (Ravager) w/ 8% chance to proc (practically 100% proc chance w/ Caltrops) plus Momentum - 20% weapon damage(Self buff that requires no target) would be 720 weapon damage for 10 seconds. - Much easier to stack than say running Burning Spellweave which only gives 200 when you could run Torug's and get 173 spell damage w/o a proc.

Again, completely agree. There is no set in existence for Magicka that can rival skirmishers or ravagers.

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

I would ask that ZoS gives each class a "Surge" type of ability where it does not require a target, and to switch spell resistances of Light and Medium armor to be able to combat each other.

Bolded for truth and importance. A self buff available to all that gives major sorcery would be a great step in the right direction.

Jules

Zsymon wrote: »

You're forgetting that Martial Knowledge adds spell damage twice with 4 pieces, which is pretty good as well, and it has no prerequisites. Weapon damage has no equivalent of that.

Morag tong

Xsorus

Ezareth wrote: »

Highest crit ive hit on myL41 NB with 17k stamina and 0 weapon damage set bonuses = just over 29k wrecking blow from Stealth.

Highest crit on my VR14 sorc with 2 damage set bonuses , 28k magicka = just over 20k.

Balance is an interesting concept indeed.

I love how you're comparing a level 41 NB for stealth wrecking blow...to Crystal Fragments that's instant proc ranged ability that doesn't require stealth..and think its Wrecking Blow that's the problem.

Samuel_Bantien

@Xsorus
This is actually a great example, a battle leveled character with only 17k stam w/ 1.2k (due to battle level) base weapon damage is able to crit from stealth w/ a 29k wrecking blow (remember the patch where they nerfed sneak critical damage?). Now his sorcerer has 28k magicka w/ around 1.4-1.7k spell damage and can hit just over 20k (atleast once due to his quote of just seeing it hit (possibly when Nirnhoned weapons were bugged?). 17k stam w/ 1.2k weapon damage doing 27k crits or 28k magicka w/ 1.4-1.7k hitting just over 20k crits - the numbers show which is superior and which scales better.

Now before you argue because he's a nightblade, I should inform you that the 10% critical damage passive from stealth works like this, 50% (base crit) + 10% (assassination passive) = 55% total and not 60%.

Daveheart

There's also a 6% weapon damage bonus in medium armor.

Jules

Daveheart wrote: »

There's also a 6% weapon damage bonus in medium armor.

Lol. And it just keeps getting worse. Can't believe I forgot this.

Daveheart

Jules wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

There's also a 6% weapon damage bonus in medium armor.

Lol. And it just keeps getting worse. Can't believe I forgot this.

Happy to pile on.

Daveheart

Oh and a bonus for equipping and Aedric Spear ability for Templars.

Jules

Daveheart wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

There's also a 6% weapon damage bonus in medium armor.

Lol. And it just keeps getting worse. Can't believe I forgot this.

Happy to pile on.

That medium armor passive is actually 12% no? For rank II?

Ezareth

Xsorus wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Highest crit ive hit on myL41 NB with 17k stamina and 0 weapon damage set bonuses = just over 29k wrecking blow from Stealth.

Highest crit on my VR14 sorc with 2 damage set bonuses , 28k magicka = just over 20k.

Balance is an interesting concept indeed.

I love how you're comparing a level 41 NB for stealth wrecking blow...to Crystal Fragments that's instant proc ranged ability that doesn't require stealth..and think its Wrecking Blow that's the problem.

Who said anything about crystal fragments? My overload crits for more than fragments and it scales better too.

Either way Stealth gives 100% Crit. I can produce the self-buffs that give me that damage all while hidden.

Overload and Crystal fragments stay at your crit percentage which is rarely above 35% or so for most PvP Sorcs.

I can't believe you're trying to somehow rationalize the two numbers.

Ezareth

Jules wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

There's also a 6% weapon damage bonus in medium armor.

Lol. And it just keeps getting worse. Can't believe I forgot this.

Happy to pile on.

That medium armor passive is actually 12% no? For rank II?

Correct.

Jules

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

There's also a 6% weapon damage bonus in medium armor.

Lol. And it just keeps getting worse. Can't believe I forgot this.

Happy to pile on.

That medium armor passive is actually 12% no? For rank II?

Correct.

Sigh. I kinda wanted to be wrong. The disparity is so glaring, I can't even.

Xsorus

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

@Xsorus
This is actually a great example, a battle leveled character with only 17k stam w/ 1.2k (due to battle level) base weapon damage is able to crit from stealth w/ a 29k wrecking blow (remember the patch where they nerfed sneak critical damage?). Now his sorcerer has 28k magicka w/ around 1.4-1.7k spell damage and can hit just over 20k (atleast once due to his quote of just seeing it hit (possibly when Nirnhoned weapons were bugged?). 17k stam w/ 1.2k weapon damage doing 27k crits or 28k magicka w/ 1.4-1.7k hitting just over 20k crits - the numbers show which is superior and which scales better.

Now before you argue because he's a nightblade, I should inform you that the 10% critical damage passive from stealth works like this, 50% (base crit) + 10% (assassination passive) = 55% total and not 60%.

No, its an absolutely terrible comparison...We're talking a Stealthed Attack (Aka only once per fight) against most likely a light armor user (which by the way is around 8600 armor with 1 medium/1 heavy/5 light) in a sub VR campaign vs a VR level player with no telling what spell resist thanks to Nirnhoned with an ability that can instant proc 30% of the time/is ranged and can be used multiple times per fight. The fact that I've yet to get hit by a 29k Wrecking Blow from stealth on any of my Vr14 characters should tell you that it doesn't work that way in the Vr levels...

Ezareth wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Highest crit ive hit on myL41 NB with 17k stamina and 0 weapon damage set bonuses = just over 29k wrecking blow from Stealth.

Highest crit on my VR14 sorc with 2 damage set bonuses , 28k magicka = just over 20k.

Balance is an interesting concept indeed.

I love how you're comparing a level 41 NB for stealth wrecking blow...to Crystal Fragments that's instant proc ranged ability that doesn't require stealth..and think its Wrecking Blow that's the problem.

Who said anything about crystal fragments? My overload crits for more than fragments and it scales better too.

Either way Stealth gives 100% Crit. I can produce the self-buffs that give me that damage all while hidden.

Overload and Crystal fragments stay at your crit percentage which is rarely above 35% or so for most PvP Sorcs.

I can't believe you're trying to somehow rationalize the two numbers.

Again, you're comparing Sneak Attack, which is once per battle to something that you can use throughout the battle...the fact that you're trying to do that tells me and everyone else the lengths you'll go to try and keep Sorcs from getting nerfed.