@ ZOS - Question on Lava Whip and Concealed Weapon

Lava_Croft

Dodgetrolling will reach a new level of awesome SOON.

Domander

Zsymon wrote: »

If you nerf dodge, you destroy dodge for anyone except Bosmer Nightblade, because they'll still have enough recovery to keep dodging for a long time despite a nerf. Nerfing dodge itself solves nothing and breaks the game completely. Bosmer NBs have 51% more stamina recovery than other races/classes, so clearly this infinite dodge problem applies only to Bosmer NBs, not to other classes and races.

You can't nerf something just to reduce one single class/race combination. Other stamina builds can't dodge roll anywhere near to infinitely, they will run out of stamina in a matter of 10 seconds.

I suggest change Refreshing Shadows to 15% recovery + another bonus, and change the Yffre passive to 12% recovery + 6% max stamina. 24% less stamina recovery will remove the infinity dodge of that one class/race combination.

You don't have to be a Bosmer OR a nightblade to roll dodge all over the place for a very very long time.

Araxleon

Zsymon wrote: »

If you nerf dodge, you destroy dodge for anyone except Bosmer Nightblade, because they'll still have enough recovery to keep dodging for a long time despite a nerf. Nerfing dodge itself solves nothing and breaks the game completely. Bosmer NBs have 51% more stamina recovery than other races/classes, so clearly this infinite dodge problem applies only to Bosmer NBs, not to other classes and races.

You can't nerf something just to reduce one single class/race combination. Other stamina builds can't dodge roll anywhere near to infinitely, they will run out of stamina in a matter of 10 seconds.

I suggest change Refreshing Shadows to 15% recovery + another bonus, and change the Yffre passive to 12% recovery + 6% max stamina. 24% less stamina recovery will remove the infinity dodge of that one class/race combination.

Roll dodge itself needs a nerf or change of somekind. You can avoid massive amounts of damage, avoiding probably more damage than a sorc which is already a bit unbalanced with how much they can avoid.

There are lots of methods to get a infinite roll dodge builds without being a bosmor NB, but yeah bosmor NB gets the best recovery but is not actually the *best* redguard is on par with max stamina increasing DPS.

If it was just one class combination you would be right, but to have magicka builds in general deal with that is a pain and its waay more than one class or combination.

Ezareth

Lava_Croft wrote: »

With a few changes this applies just as well to the Bolt Escape spammers in Cyrodiil.

My original version actually was about Bolt Escape ( =

vortexman11

So people are fine with fear dropping block which can be followed up with an unblockable Incapacitating Strike even if the player breaks free instantly, yet two skills that can hit you while you're busy rolling away is a problem.

Blocking does not mitigate 100% of damage yet the game feels like it needs to have a 100% counter to it. Roll dodging in a way mitigates 100% of damage yet the game feels there should be no counter to it?

Varicite

vortexman11 wrote: »

So people are fine with fear dropping block which can be followed up with an unblockable Incapacitating Strike even if the player breaks free instantly, yet two skills that can hit you while you're busy rolling away is a problem.

Blocking does not mitigate 100% of damage yet the game feels like it needs to have a 100% counter to it. Roll dodging in a way mitigates 100% of damage yet the game feels there should be no counter to it?

You are assuming that the people who think Fear dropping block is okay (and I'm one of them) are the exact same people who feel that no single-target ability should be able to hit through roll dodge (I don't agree w/ that change).

That's a rather large assumption to be throwing around there.

Vis

I have a v14 DK I use to pvp too. I want flame whip fixed because it has brought back the old vampire hold block magicka meta of last year. So many DKs with their right mouse buttons taped down who mistake it as "skill" Fix whip and we might finally have DKs who have to let go of block to dps again.

Sharee

Araxleon wrote: »

Roll dodge itself needs a nerf or change of somekind. You can avoid massive amounts of damage, avoiding probably more damage than a sorc which is already a bit unbalanced with how much they can avoid.

A group gets jump on a NB, NB dodges 20 attacks, and everyone is like, "ohhh, look at all that massive damage he avoided! Nerf!"

A group gets jump on a sorc, sorc bolts away(avoiding the same 20 attacks in the process by simply not being there in the firstplace), and everyone just shrugs and carries on.

Perspective, people.

Varicite

Sharee wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Roll dodge itself needs a nerf or change of somekind. You can avoid massive amounts of damage, avoiding probably more damage than a sorc which is already a bit unbalanced with how much they can avoid.

A group gets jump on a NB, NB dodges 20 attacks, and everyone is like, "ohhh, look at all that massive damage he avoided! Nerf!"

A group gets jump on a sorc, sorc bolts away(avoiding the same 20 attacks in the process by simply not being there in the firstplace), and everyone just shrugs and carries on.

Perspective, people.

Eh, judging by the number of nerf Sorc posts floating around, I'd say they whine about both pretty equally. And of course, each whines about the other. ; P

Septimus_Magna

Pff, this roll dodge vs shield stacking discussion is getting boring.
They are two completely different ways of avoiding damage.
Attacks dodged do 0 damage and attacks against shields do max damage, which would you prefer?

The rolldodger doesnt care about 20k cfrags because he can completely avoid them.
The rolldodger only cares about a few abilities that ignore his dodge roll but the dps on these abilities tends to be rather low.
The rolldodger cant do high damage while dodging but he can if he stops dodging.

The shieldstacker cares about heavy hits because it means he needs to recast his shields within a second or he's dead.
The shieldstacker also cares about damage type because not all his shields mitigate physical damage, this can be quite confusing because the shield displayed all looks the same.
The shieldstacker can do high damage while his shields last but not when he's casting them.

DoctorSwampy

Vis wrote: »

I have a v14 DK I use to pvp too. I want flame whip fixed because it has brought back the old vampire hold block magicka meta of last year. So many DKs with their right mouse buttons taped down who mistake it as "skill" Fix whip and we might finally have DKs who have to let go of block to dps again.

There's a reason you see people blocking and such as a magicka build with Sword and Board (Not just DKs), how else are we supposed to reduce the damage we take and prevent CC so we don't have to break out of CC every 2 seconds because the immunity is broken at this games state right now?
While I admit you don't need skill to hold block, but you also don't need skill to roll dodge, cc, etc., it's needed to reduce the insane amounts of damage you take in PvP from all sides. Plus, DKS are horrible at this moment if you try to play like in 1.5. The damage we do is insignificant to anyone using stamina or magicka sorcs. We have no escape, so our option is to not block, get cc'd, die in half a second due to massive damage output, or block and live maybe 5 seconds longer (in a group v. group scenario), 1v1 we aren't horrible but we're still on the short end of the stick. DKs are way overrated ever since they've been found as "god-like" in previous months. There are plenty of ways to break block if you're so concerned with it. Without an escape, blocking is our only option with our tanky nature and a lack of burst damage.
If this wasn't a game of all CC I would drop block.

Domander

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Pff, this roll dodge vs shield stacking discussion is getting boring.
They are two completely different ways of avoiding damage.
Attacks dodged do 0 damage and attacks against shields do max damage, which would you prefer?

The rolldodger doesnt care about 20k cfrags because he can completely avoid them.
The rolldodger only cares about a few abilities that ignore his dodge roll but the dps on these abilities tends to be rather low.
The rolldodger cant do high damage while dodging but he can if he stops dodging.

The shieldstacker cares about heavy hits because it means he needs to recast his shields within a second or he's dead.
The shieldstacker also cares about damage type because not all his shields mitigate physical damage, this can be quite confusing because the shield displayed all looks the same.
The shieldstacker can do high damage while his shields last but not when he's casting them.

There's no such thing as a 20k crystal frag against a damage shield.

Ernest145

I think maybe night blades should need get 30 percent more star regen because really that is pretty crazy and also flame lash and concealed weapon hitting though dodges is dumb. so many majicka dks and night blades need very little skill to just gap close and spam either one and murder stamina builds. Majicka dks are getting really popular because of this, because all they have to do is literally invasion, talon, and block cast flash lash which requires no skill at all. Also, in general block casting should not even be a thing just saying.

Ernest145

not get 30 percent more stam regen

defilade__ESO

Soulac wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I sure hope so, it's hard enough to kill those who dodge roll infinitely.

They are also melee range, and not the only melee range abilities that go through dodge roll.

It's hard enough to kill those who Shield stack Infinitely.

Can I get Shield ignoring skills now? Let's begin with surprise attack.

You mean invincible shielding, like watching nine VR14s trying to kill one Sorc, and his health barely moves, only to see him blink away?

Stigant

Those two abilities are buged and the bug should have been fixed. What I dont really understand is, why everyone makes this thread about ROLL-DODGING, while Concealed Weapon and DK Whips ignore ALL dodge mechanics. Including setbonuses (histbark for instance) and abilities like Evasion (and morphs).

I dont see any reason why class specific Melee abilities (even magicka ones) should be un-dodgeable and counter mechanics and abilities that are available to everyone.

Araxleon

vaclav.tofleb17_ESO wrote: »

Those two abilities are buged and the bug should have been fixed. What I dont really understand is, why everyone makes this thread about ROLL-DODGING, while Concealed Weapon and DK Whips ignore ALL dodge mechanics. Including setbonuses (histbark for instance) and abilities like Evasion (and morphs) and Blur (and Morpsh).

Dealing with permarolers is a totaly different story and I dont see any reason why Melee abilities (even magicka ones) should be un-dodgeable

They arent bugged many mechanics worked like this, ALOT of stuff could be said as *bugged* in the game,

If conceal and lava whip go thru roll dodge THAT means roll dodge is also the subject on countering it, many players agree that it would be crazy powerful to allow roll dodge to avoid these skills they arent long range, they require you to be close range which make sense for it to not be dodgable, same with jabs and many other skills.

This change should not happen if perma rollers arent fixed, thats the point. Stamina NB is one of the strongest class in the game EVEN WITH these current things in affect, so make them even stronger?

I would love all melee abilities magicka or stamina to be undodgable because you put the effort to be close range THAT is a good change, not making it so less attacks can hit roll dodgers.

and like many people have said above who are very known good players from group play to 1v1s it can cause ALOT of damage to PVP.

Stigant

Its not about Rolling .. they said that its not WAI that these two ignore dodge mechanics ... if it's not WAI then its a bug.

Araxleon

vaclav.tofleb17_ESO wrote: »

Its not about Rolling .. they said that its not WAI that these two ignore dodge mechanics ... if it's not WAI then its a bug.

you obviously havent played enough PVP to understand, so I wont bother arguing with you.
that or dont understand mechanics

Varicite

vaclav.tofleb17_ESO wrote: »

Its not about Rolling .. they said that its not WAI that these two ignore dodge mechanics ... if it's not WAI then its a bug.

They say a lot of things are bugs. Most of the time that's just code for "we meant for it to work this way, but people didn't like it".

Pretty much exactly how stealth speed stacking was also a "bug", even though it was specifically asked about during beta and devs very specifically said that it was working exactly as intended that they do stack. So everybody went ahead and made themselves new expensive legendary sets.

But then that patch went live, players complained, and suddenly ZOS responds "hey guys, that's a bug!". So then everybody was simply out of a lot of gold for listening to what ZOS originally assured them.

So yeah, it probably is a "bug", but not in the sense that you are thinking. It's a "man, we need to save face" bug.

Stigant

Obviously ....

stop looking down on people that dont agree with you ... you are single mindedly looking at the problem form perspective of, sorry to put it that way. "perma-rollers-hater" .. but its not about only rolldodge, its about the fact that it ignores "passive" dodge chance given by other abilities and item set as well...
There are other abilities that are supposed to have that effect, CW and Whips are not included .. therefore its a bug that should be fixed.

Rolldodge is mechanics available for everyone ... every class can build for samina sustain and therefore so called "permarolling". And there should be and are "counters" available to everyone (more or less efective), its only ones problem if choses not to use them ... chaneled abilities including lightning staff and resto staff heavy attack ... AoE's (Dawnbreaker and Meteor for example) ...
See the pattern there? Obviously singletarget damaging spamable abilities are not supposed to ignore basic defense mechanics that everyone can do ... Name one that ignores blocking ... please ...


Additionally, as a sorc you still can streak over rolling player to stun, with NB you can use gap closer, follow in his direction and fear .... with a DK you can fosilize to stop him ... etc. etc.

not to mention that why would you bother with permaroller anyway ... when permanently rolling he's no thread to you anyway ... its just a rolling goofball

But once again .. this is not about Rolldodge only ... its about buged abilities that ignore ALL DODGE Mechanics, while not intended to do so ... any other MMO I played in the past tended to hotfix bugs like theese .. especially when they aknowledged its a bug

roastedduck

everyones complaining about nbs sorcs and dks, guess nobody plays templars anymore

roastedduck

roastedduck wrote: »

everyones complaining about nbs sorcs and dks, guess nobody plays templars anymore

also if you cant kill infinite roll dodgers, the problem is with you, shield stacking is way more powerful due to it ignores any debuffs.

to win in this game, you need to put pressure constantly, just try 2v2 all class, without nirns sorcs wins, wtih nirns nb wins, ofc dk vs sorcs are gonna be 2 hour long since sorcs just spam mine and BE, whilst other fights with templars are gonna be less than 30 secs

Araxleon

vaclav.tofleb17_ESO wrote: »

Obviously ....

stop looking down on people that dont agree with you ... you are single mindedly looking at the problem form perspective of, sorry to put it that way. "perma-rollers-hater" .. but its not about only rolldodge, its about the fact that it ignores "passive" dodge chance given by other abilities and item set as well...
There are other abilities that are supposed to have that effect, CW and Whips are not included .. therefore its a bug that should be fixed.

Rolldodge is mechanics available for everyone ... every class can build for samina sustain and therefore so called "permarolling". And there should be and are "counters" available to everyone (more or less efective), its only ones problem if choses not to use them ... chaneled abilities including lightning staff and resto staff heavy attack ... AoE's (Dawnbreaker and Meteor for example) ...
See the pattern there? Obviously singletarget damaging spamable abilities are not supposed to ignore basic defense mechanics that everyone can do ... Name one that ignores blocking ... please ...


Additionally, as a sorc you still can streak over rolling player to stun, with NB you can use gap closer, follow in his direction and fear .... with a DK you can fosilize to stop him ... etc. etc.

not to mention that why would you bother with permaroller anyway ... when permanently rolling he's no thread to you anyway ... its just a rolling goofball

But once again .. this is not about Rolldodge only ... its about buged abilities that ignore ALL DODGE Mechanics, while not intended to do so ... any other MMO I played in the past tended to hotfix bugs like theese .. especially when they aknowledged its a bug

Shield = Im hitting your shield you take damage/ lose stamina
Magicka Shield = Lose magicka/take damage -even if you have a shield you are still being hit its a shield afterall-
Rollddodge = Trade stamina for roll dodge/ take 0 damage.

Everyone can do it, so it shouldnt be a main line of defense, its just silly roll dodging is available to everyone, now some builds use high regen and roll forever or magicka builds use it once and awhile to avoid damage, your view is correct if you were a magicka build, it would be fair I trade stamina for the power to avoid 100% damage and since magicka builds dont have alot thats fair and makes sense but balance wise people will be using it as a way to avoid 100% of damage, they added vigor and stamina heals if they do this whats the point to these heals?

Im not being singleminded im looking at both sides and analyzing the outcome, All the great stamina builds DK, NB templar all agree that it doesnt really bother them they can already avoid a MASSIVE amounts of damaage.

Things like radiant destruction ignoring line of sight is way more annoying and *blatantly broken then this*

Araxleon

Because stamina NB is balanced 100%

Stigant

1. I Dont really understand, why are you still making it a Stamina NB thing ...
2. Ok that screen is obviously someone who is stacking all the possible stamina regens in game 3x Air, 4x Shadow Walker, 2x Potentate, Gargoyle head + regen food + Vamp + second bar is 2H and he just killed someone (just a guess) + relentness focus + continuous attack, maybe? ... whatever... unnecessary overkill in my opinion ... whats the point?

I still dont see any reasonable argument that would justify for instance a DK, being able to hit with a decently damaging + DoTing + Snaring + Block-Castable + possibly Selfhealing Whip ignoring even a passive % of dodgechance from lets say Evasion (or its morph), or maybe chance of dodging it while blocking and having a Histbark set equiped.

Or a magic NB spaming concealed weapon hitting for 7-10K, chasing a bow-user who is doing his best of rolling away and using hasty retreat passive to get away, while his dodges are being totaly ignored and maybe even one more activated % dodge chance ability.. because thats the defense mechanic that mostly those dedicated bowusers use.

3. NONE of those you listed IGNORE completly blocking mechanics the same way that CW and Whip ignore dodge mechanics

Iyas

Araxleon wrote: »

Because stamina NB is balanced 100%

Wow stack everything you can to make a point. Little bit to much. Its like taking a Screenshot from a tooltip after using a mage guild ability for the empower. Cant be serious...

Araxleon

He isnt even a woodelf the point is his weapon damage isnt that bad. Overall point he can give. Up about 1 or 2k stam recovery and then make a viable.build with still massive amounts of stam recovery, thats my friend now me having 2k stam regen and max damage IS possible and thats crazy to anything magicka compares to magic.

Compareing empoweres to this is not the same.

It is possible to reach 4k magicka recovery but bad build and stamina can reach up to 6k before build is bad this pic is still within viable build range. The point is the crazy values and how people say make them run outta stamina but bleh, at this point if pictures wont convince i give up, people will read see people agree and disagree and make their own judgement, the picture should help.

Side note its thoerycrafting 101 seeing how high you can achieve and lower certain things to boost others.

Stigant

Araxleon wrote: »

He isnt even a woodelf the point is his weapon damage isnt that bad. Overall point he can give. Up about 1 or 2k stam recovery and then make a viable.build with still massive amounts of stam recovery, thats my friend now me having 2k stam regen and max damage IS possible and thats crazy to anything magicka compares to magic.

Compareing empoweres to this is not the same.

It is possible to reach 4k magicka recovery but bad build and stamina can reach up to 6k before build is bad this pic is still within viable build range. The point is the crazy values and how people say make them run outta stamina but bleh, at this point if pictures wont convince i give up, people will read see people agree and disagree and make their own judgement, the picture should help.

Side note its thoerycrafting 101 seeing how high you can achieve and lower certain things to boost others.

I dont see a thing that would explain why should CW and Whip ignore dodge ... not a single point ... just a wall of text about "close to viable build with stam regen overkill"

I can understand how can you connect these two together, but its false reasoning ... CW and Whip will not help a sorc to defeat permarolling templar therefore leaving them undodgeable would not be the right solution ....

Permarolling and CW / Whip undodgeable are TWO SEPARATE ISSUES ...

Araxleon

vaclav.tofleb17_ESO wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

He isnt even a woodelf the point is his weapon damage isnt that bad. Overall point he can give. Up about 1 or 2k stam recovery and then make a viable.build with still massive amounts of stam recovery, thats my friend now me having 2k stam regen and max damage IS possible and thats crazy to anything magicka compares to magic.

Compareing empoweres to this is not the same.

It is possible to reach 4k magicka recovery but bad build and stamina can reach up to 6k before build is bad this pic is still within viable build range. The point is the crazy values and how people say make them run outta stamina but bleh, at this point if pictures wont convince i give up, people will read see people agree and disagree and make their own judgement, the picture should help.

Side note its thoerycrafting 101 seeing how high you can achieve and lower certain things to boost others.

I dont see a thing that would explain why should CW and Whip ignore dodge ... not a single poit ... just a wall of text about "close to viable build with stam regen overkill"

I can understand how can you connect these two together, but its false reasoning ... CW and Whip will not help a sorc to defeat permarolling templar therefore leaving them undodgeable would not be the right sollution ....

Permarolling and CW / Whip undodgeable are TWO SEPARATE ISSUES ...

Curse is undodgable... Thats what they use to DPS thats the sorc equal to conceal and lava whip tell me how you will damage them?

Lets play a little game since you seem to know so much, I am a stamina build how do you kill me? You dont know my bars or skills yet, what do you use? (Choose from DK or NB skills also) you dont have to play but you could prove your point to everyone the proper way if your good hehe