@ ZOS - Question on Lava Whip and Concealed Weapon

Tankqull

Iyas wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Dodge roll needs to go away

So whats the defense for stamina builds?

blocking?

Araxleon

Tankqull wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Dodge roll needs to go away

So whats the defense for stamina builds?

blocking?

lmao sooo true the other day I met a uppercut spam, I just held block and spamed concealed and he died.

Varicite

ToRelax wrote: »

Then why do you compare dodge roll alone against the six to eight defensive skills I use on my Sorc?

I didn't. Ever.

ToRelax wrote: »

You know very well that dodge rolling alone will much easier safe you than just spamming Hardened Ward like an idiot.

Unless you are fighting literally any player who knows how to counter dodge rolling, because counters to dodge rolling actually exist.

There is no specific counter to damage shields outside of extremely high sustained DPS, which is basically a counter to everything right now.

Bane_of_Fringe

Kelleton wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBucket wrote: »

These abilities should NOT go through dodge roll. Its way to easy for a DK to jist spam 7k lava whips on a player using his only defense abilities. Especially if that player is CC immune.

I think every class needs an ability that can hit a player in Dodge roll..

I agree, and those same abilities should also bypass shields

You can attack shields at range. Radiant destruction is an execute, curse is a delayed burst. Whip and concealed weapon require you to be in melee range.

ToRelax

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Then why do you compare dodge roll alone against the six to eight defensive skills I use on my Sorc?

I didn't. Ever.

ToRelax wrote: »

You know very well that dodge rolling alone will much easier safe you than just spamming Hardened Ward like an idiot.

Unless you are fighting literally any player who knows how to counter dodge rolling, because counters to dodge rolling actually exist.

There is no specific counter to damage shields outside of extremely high sustained DPS, which is basically a counter to everything right now.

...besides... guess what... dodge rolling!

In most situations though, I could rather safe myself with a few dodge rolls (and nothing else) than with Hardened Ward (and nothing else).

Seriously, neither dodge rolling alone nor shieldspamming alone will save you from a competent player. It doesn't make sense comparing them in a way you'd never actually use them.
It was said often enough now that Sorcs would need only that one ability (Hardened Ward) to survive everything, wich is obviously nonsense.

Varicite

ToRelax wrote: »

"There is no specific counter to damage shields outside of extremely high sustained DPS, which is basically a counter to everything right now."

...besides... guess what... dodge rolling!

Unless of course you have any of the following on your bar, against which dodge rolling mitigates 0 damage:

Teleport Strike/Lotus Fan
Veiled Strike/Concealed Weapon
Searing Strike/Burning Embers
Lava Whip/Molten Whip/Flame Lash
Daedric Curse/Daedric Prey/Velocious Curse
Focused Charge/Explosive Charge/Toppling Charge
Critical Charge/Critical Rush/Stampede
Shield Charge/Shielded Assault/Invasion
Etc...

I'm pretty sure that shields absorb damage against all of those, and absolutely everything else.

/shrug

ToRelax wrote: »

Seriously, neither dodge rolling alone nor shieldspamming alone will save you from a competent player. It doesn't make sense comparing them in a way you'd never actually use them.
It was said often enough now that Sorcs would need only that one ability (Hardened Ward) to survive everything, wich is obviously nonsense.

And THAT is exactly what I've been trying to illustrate. It's a stupid comparison, because neither are a realistic situation, and comparing abilities in a vacuum is simply nonsensical.

They are both able to be used FAR more than originally intended atm, due to extremely high resource pools / regen that pretty much every build can accomplish w/ a little effort.

ToRelax

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

"There is no specific counter to damage shields outside of extremely high sustained DPS, which is basically a counter to everything right now."

...besides... guess what... dodge rolling!

Unless of course you have any of the following on your bar, against which dodge rolling mitigates 0 damage:

Teleport Strike/Lotus Fan
Veiled Strike/Concealed Weapon
Searing Strike/Unstable Flame/Burning Embers
Lava Whip/Molten Whip/Flame Lash
Petrify/Fossilize/Shattering Rocks
Daedric Curse/Daedric Prey/Velocious Curse
Focused Charge/Explosive Charge/Toppling Charge
Critical Charge/Critical Rush/Stampede
Uppercut/Wrecking Blow (sometimes dodgeable, but often not)
Shield Charge/Shielded Assault/Invasion

I'm pretty sure that shields absorb damage against all of those, and absolutely everything else.

/shrug

Petrify does no damage, Curse is low dps, you can dodge every charge and when you get hit by Wrecking Blow through dodge roll that's a bug that has no place in a balance discussion.
So Teleport Strike, Veiled Strike, Lava Whipe and Searing Strike are left as dps skills. Templar can use Radiant Destruction though. Inevitable Detonation + Curse works as well if the dodge roller is not attacking you, not using LOS and not trying to escape...

Are you sure that Unstable Flame hits through dodge roll? It's no melee magicka anymore...

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seriously, neither dodge rolling alone nor shieldspamming alone will save you from a competent player. It doesn't make sense comparing them in a way you'd never actually use them.
It was said often enough now that Sorcs would need only that one ability (Hardened Ward) to survive everything, wich is obviously nonsense.

And THAT is exactly what I've been trying to illustrate. It's a stupid comparison, because neither are a realistic situation, and comparing abilities in a vacuum is simply nonsensical.

They are both able to be used FAR more than originally intended atm, due to extremely high resource pools / regen that pretty much every build can accomplish w/ a little effort.

Good.

Varicite

ToRelax wrote: »

Petrify does no damage, Curse is low dps, you can dodge every charge and when you get hit by Wrecking Blow through dodge roll that's a bug that has no place in a balance discussion.
So Teleport Strike, Veiled Strike, Lava Whipe and Searing Strike are left as dps skills. Templar can use Radiant Destruction though. Inevitable Detonation + Curse works as well if the dodge roller is not attacking you, not using LOS and not trying to escape...

Are you sure that Unstable Flame hits through dodge roll? It's no melee magicka anymore...

Yeah, you caught me before my edit. I had copy/pasted a list from the known issues thread detailing some of the abilities that go through dodge rolls and after posting it, I realized that there were some errors in the list, which I tried to fix (including removing non-damaging abilities like CC).

I went ahead and pulled Searing Strike off of that list, as I do not believe it does actually work through dodge rolls. Some other abilities that do work through rolls (like Detonation, etc) were also left off, as I'm fairly certain that the point was made. : P

Attorneyatlawl

Soulac wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I sure hope so, it's hard enough to kill those who dodge roll infinitely.

They are also melee range, and not the only melee range abilities that go through dodge roll.

It's hard enough to kill those who Shield stack Infinitely.

Can I get Shield ignoring skills now? Let's begin with surprise attack.

You're in luck, fear already does!

Varicite

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I sure hope so, it's hard enough to kill those who dodge roll infinitely.

They are also melee range, and not the only melee range abilities that go through dodge roll.

It's hard enough to kill those who Shield stack Infinitely.

Can I get Shield ignoring skills now? Let's begin with surprise attack.

You're in luck, fear already does!

Oh, Fear now makes damage shields disappear? News to me.

Erondil

Shields are indeed extremly strong and hard to outdps in 1v1. But this game is not balanced around 1v1, and they seems fine to me in bigger fights. Dodgeroll is extremly strong when you fight multiple ennemys but not so much in 1v1 because it doesnt permite to maintain a decent dps. Both are pretty balanced imo, zos just need to take a look at those endless ressources builds.
About concelead weapon and whip going through dodgeroll, I think every magicka spec needs to have access to a hardcounter, but those are too strong. Imo, once nirn is fixed concelead weapon and whip should have their damages reduced by x% (between 30 and 50% Id say) when it hits middodgeroll.

Zsymon

Lhorion wrote: »

P.P.S.: A skill that ignores all kind of shields could be nice. Maybe a skill in the coming "Dark Brotherhood"?

Now that would be a good idea. Maybe some melee ability (with a magicka and stamina morph) with a long cast time that hits like a truck. Call it Backstab or Ravage.

Iyas

so no answer is an answer, i guess

Domander

So.... it was answered in ESO live... sort of..

If they fix it so that dodge roll makes these spells miss, they need to make it so that other abilities like radiant destruction and curse (curse on cast, not explosion) can be dodged.

ToRelax

Domander wrote: »

So.... it was answered in ESO live... sort of..

If they fix it so that dodge roll makes these spells miss, they need to make it so that other abilities like radiant destruction and curse (curse on cast, not explosion) can be dodged.

Why... ?
I can understand making Radiant dodgeable at least, but for other reasons I guess.
And Curse isn't doing much dps. I found it weird they made us able to stack Curses (and magicka detonations) from different players on the same player, but aside from that it shouldn't be a problem even.

Domander

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

So.... it was answered in ESO live... sort of..

If they fix it so that dodge roll makes these spells miss, they need to make it so that other abilities like radiant destruction and curse (curse on cast, not explosion) can be dodged.

Why... ?
I can understand making Radiant dodgeable at least, but for other reasons I guess.
And Curse isn't doing much dps. I found it weird they made us able to stack Curses (and magicka detonations) from different players on the same player, but aside from that it shouldn't be a problem even.

There is a LOT of extra defense in this game vs spells. Annulment, eclipse, class passives (extra spell resist), nirmhoned, silence (negate), to name a few. Right now any spell that's not a projectile is going through roll dodge. If they change that, then it should be for all spells.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Yeah zenimax can't just pick and choose which magicka moves hit roll and which ones don't. It seriously bummed me out when I heard they were going to change those two moves. I was going to go magicka nb and now I guess I have to just stay stamina. *sigh* Whats wrong with there being melee options against dodge roll huh? I don't get it, everyone is whining about not being able to kill roll spammers and they nerf something that could do it! They seriously don't listen to the community at all.

Zsymon

If you nerf dodge, you destroy dodge for anyone except Bosmer Nightblade, because they'll still have enough recovery to keep dodging for a long time despite a nerf. Nerfing dodge itself solves nothing and breaks the game completely. Bosmer NBs have 51% more stamina recovery than other races/classes, so clearly this infinite dodge problem applies only to Bosmer NBs, not to other classes and races.

You can't nerf something just to reduce one single class/race combination. Other stamina builds can't dodge roll anywhere near to infinitely, they will run out of stamina in a matter of 10 seconds.

I suggest change Refreshing Shadows to 15% recovery + another bonus, and change the Yffre passive to 12% recovery + 6% max stamina. 24% less stamina recovery will remove the infinity dodge of that one class/race combination.

Zsymon

Shields are a major problem if only for the fact that it makes it impossible for a caster to defeat another caster, and that is not even a Sorc problem. Let Sorcs keep their Ward, they need it, but remove shield stacking and reduce the strength of Healing Ward and Harness Magicka, as they're both even stronger than the Sorc Ward.

Erondil

Zsymon wrote: »

Shields are a major problem if only for the fact that it makes it impossible for a caster to defeat another caster, and that is not even a Sorc problem. Let Sorcs keep their Ward, they need it, but remove shield stacking and reduce the strength of Healing Ward and Harness Magicka, as they're both even stronger than the Sorc Ward.

Then you nerf lightarmor dk and templar a lot. Some specc that already very few are running and are far from being strong.

Erondil

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

So.... it was answered in ESO live... sort of..

If they fix it so that dodge roll makes these spells miss, they need to make it so that other abilities like radiant destruction and curse (curse on cast, not explosion) can be dodged.

Why... ?
I can understand making Radiant dodgeable at least, but for other reasons I guess.
And Curse isn't doing much dps. I found it weird they made us able to stack Curses (and magicka detonations) from different players on the same player, but aside from that it shouldn't be a problem even.

There is a LOT of extra defense in this game vs spells. Annulment, eclipse, class passives (extra spell resist), nirmhoned, silence (negate), to name a few. Right now any spell that's not a projectile is going through roll dodge. If they change that, then it should be for all spells.

Lol... you leave dodgeroll with no counter when stamina nb are already roflstomping the world.

Are you stupid or?

Armitas

So I heard as well that they are going to "fix lava hitting through roll". I really hope they are not just going to patch this, especially after all our complaints about perma rollers...that would be really really disappointing and out of touch. And neither can they just nerf rolling with a bigger cost along with the lava whip fix because what are light armor users suppose to do with a bigger roll cost and breakfree every 5 seconds?

This is going to take a comprehensive rework of 1.6 not a simple "change whip to be dodged" fix. I really really hope they realize that.

Domander

Erondil wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

So.... it was answered in ESO live... sort of..

If they fix it so that dodge roll makes these spells miss, they need to make it so that other abilities like radiant destruction and curse (curse on cast, not explosion) can be dodged.

Why... ?
I can understand making Radiant dodgeable at least, but for other reasons I guess.
And Curse isn't doing much dps. I found it weird they made us able to stack Curses (and magicka detonations) from different players on the same player, but aside from that it shouldn't be a problem even.

There is a LOT of extra defense in this game vs spells. Annulment, eclipse, class passives (extra spell resist), nirmhoned, silence (negate), to name a few. Right now any spell that's not a projectile is going through roll dodge. If they change that, then it should be for all spells.

Lol... you leave dodgeroll with no counter when stamina nb are already roflstomping the world.

Are you stupid or?

Or...balancing roll dodge is a seperate issue, one that I think definitely needs addressed. I would actually prefer they leave it as it is, non-projectile spells going through dodge.

Varicite

Domander wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

So.... it was answered in ESO live... sort of..

If they fix it so that dodge roll makes these spells miss, they need to make it so that other abilities like radiant destruction and curse (curse on cast, not explosion) can be dodged.

Why... ?
I can understand making Radiant dodgeable at least, but for other reasons I guess.
And Curse isn't doing much dps. I found it weird they made us able to stack Curses (and magicka detonations) from different players on the same player, but aside from that it shouldn't be a problem even.

There is a LOT of extra defense in this game vs spells. Annulment, eclipse, class passives (extra spell resist), nirmhoned, silence (negate), to name a few. Right now any spell that's not a projectile is going through roll dodge. If they change that, then it should be for all spells.

Lol... you leave dodgeroll with no counter when stamina nb are already roflstomping the world.

Are you stupid or?

Or...balancing roll dodge is a seperate issue, one that I think definitely needs addressed. I would actually prefer they leave it as it is, non-projectile spells going through dodge.

I honestly feel that this would be a more favorable response, as it pertains to game balance.

Domander

Varicite wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

So.... it was answered in ESO live... sort of..

If they fix it so that dodge roll makes these spells miss, they need to make it so that other abilities like radiant destruction and curse (curse on cast, not explosion) can be dodged.

Why... ?
I can understand making Radiant dodgeable at least, but for other reasons I guess.
And Curse isn't doing much dps. I found it weird they made us able to stack Curses (and magicka detonations) from different players on the same player, but aside from that it shouldn't be a problem even.

There is a LOT of extra defense in this game vs spells. Annulment, eclipse, class passives (extra spell resist), nirmhoned, silence (negate), to name a few. Right now any spell that's not a projectile is going through roll dodge. If they change that, then it should be for all spells.

Lol... you leave dodgeroll with no counter when stamina nb are already roflstomping the world.

Are you stupid or?

Or...balancing roll dodge is a seperate issue, one that I think definitely needs addressed. I would actually prefer they leave it as it is, non-projectile spells going through dodge.

I honestly feel that this would be a more favorable response, as it pertains to game balance.

Yeah, if they just "fix" spells going through roll dodge and nothing else then you could become completely immune to damage for as long as you can dodge roll, which for some is a really really really long time.

DoctorSwampy

Making all hits avoidable is just going to make this game even worse when it comes to the amount of Stamina users, abusing the dodge roll to avoid more damage with no way for magicka builds to kill the roller.
If they do what they're doing they need to make it cost a lot more than before, otherwise we'll see entire zergs dodge rolling into a keep and in open field like salmon in a river.

Snit

Ezareth wrote: »

I spent 500 ultimate heavy power overloading a nightblade who was dodge rolling away from me last night. 30 seconds of ultimating him with 5K Heavy attacks and by the time he reached the friendly lines he was running to he was at 100% health due to vigor spam (while perma rolling). You guys seriously want to make these even more OP?

He went full defensive with a build that is good at going full defensive. You do the same thing sometimes Magicka Sorcs and Stamina NB's can be very hard to pin down if they decide they just want to flee.

tonemd

Time to get my Way of the Air set out of storage.

But seriously, if these magicka melee moves weren't suppose to hit through roll dodge, did it really take the question making it to ESO Live for them to notice? The answer seemed specific to the Lava whips and Concealed weapon.

Ezareth

They see me rollin
They hatin
Still trollin they tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
My stam bar still full
Keys are bangin
They hopin that they gon catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty

Templar think they can Jesus beam
Dark Cloak so I ain't easy to be seen
When they see me roll by they can't do a thing
And my shine on my Vigor and the health bar clean
Roll with my nirnhoned, cuz it OP
Next to the crit charge is the Wrecking Blow key
Turn a Sorc into a coma
Man you ain't know, don't take a diploma
Just tryin to roll ain't tryin to get nurfed
Just by myself so I pull in the zerg
They patrolling you know they hate me
Regen turned all the way up until the maximum
I can't speak for some newbs tryin to gank for fun
But we stackin regen that we have and um Medium armor help the Evasion
Velocious Curse, I'm holdin block
Cripling Grasp and I'm rollin slow
Shuffle and rollin like a tramp
Twist and twistin can't hit this vamp
DK pull up from behind think hes a champ
Talons down gonna stop the motion
Pop my fear who he think hes foolin
This the Play-N-Skillz when we out and trollin
Got bounties in every city except Cyrodiil but I'm still ain't losin

They see me rollin
They hatin
Still rollin they tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
My stam bar still full
Keys are bangin
They hopin that they gon catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty

Lava_Croft

Ezareth wrote: »

They see me rollin
They hatin
Still trollin they tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
My stam bar still full
Keys are bangin
They hopin that they gon catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty

Templar think they can Jesus beam
Dark Cloak so I ain't easy to be seen
When they see me roll by they can't do a thing
And my shine on my Vigor and the health bar clean
Roll with my nirnhoned, cuz it OP
Next to the crit charge is the Wrecking Blow key
Turn a Sorc into a coma
Man you ain't know, don't take a diploma
Just tryin to roll ain't tryin to get nurfed
Just by myself so I pull in the zerg
They patrolling you know they hate me
Regen turned all the way up until the maximum
I can't speak for some newbs tryin to gank for fun
But we stackin regen that we have and um Medium armor help the Evasion
Velocious Curse, I'm holdin block
Cripling Grasp and I'm rollin slow
Shuffle and rollin like a tramp
Twist and twistin can't hit this vamp
DK pull up from behind think hes a champ
Talons down gonna stop the motion
Pop my fear who he think hes foolin
This the Play-N-Skillz when we out and trollin
Got bounties in every city except Cyrodiil but I'm still ain't losin

They see me rollin
They hatin
Still rollin they tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
My stam bar still full
Keys are bangin
They hopin that they gon catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty
Tryin to catch me with under thirty

With a few changes this applies just as well to the Bolt Escape spammers in Cyrodiil.