@ZOS - two questions on Nirnhorned and Vigor

Ezareth

woodsro wrote: »

I noticed something the other day dont know if its relevent but.

Testing on saber cats vet 10 in the rift if you use element weakness + sharpened + apprentice and enough divine pieces you can actually get your spells to do more damage then what is stated on the tool tip without a critical hit as I saw on cls.

This I either a bug, or cls is reporting wrong I was using crushing shock when I noticed it. If this a bug, it could mean you start getting more damage as you put resistance into negative values on the target instead of the spell just doing its full tool tip value it starts doing more.

I really hope this isn't exploitable, infactvi hope cls is wrong, someone should try it and see if they can reproduce.

This has always been the case. "Overpiercing" spell resistance provides around a ~10% bonus damage modifier. It makes no mathematical sense and has no reference or explanation for it in anything in the game.

Nirnhoned and Sharpened staves used to do this.

timidobserver wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

It was obvious to everyone no matter how much they argue to the contrary that this one trait is far more powerful than any armor trait deserves to be. A sure indicator something is OP is the moment every hardcore player such as myself(and many others here) instantly converts all their gear over to it.

Additionally it further increased the divide between Medium and Light armors and stamina builds in general not just because Magicka damage is cut significantly but because the protection it offers to light armor it offers twice as much to on Medium armor and 3 times as much to Heavy. Force multipliers in this game should be a rare and extremely limited thing, not something you can stack on 8 pieces of crafted gear.

Everyone (including ZoS) evidently thought this armor trait was working just like Reinforced and the patch notes mention that specifically. Once it became clear that it was multiplicative with your overall spell resist people started switching in droves. There is a reason Fortified Nirncrux which used to sell for 10K is now selling for 19K.

Sure, every PvPer converts their gear to it. Every time PvPers find a way to make people whine about dying, I have to remake my gear or respec my skills because stuff gets nerfed.

So you're saying as a PvEr the content that ZoS designs to be difficult should be trivialized? People weren't exploiting Nirnhoned staves and doing insane damage to bosses that should have some inate resistance. You're saying all Magickal PvE damage should *easily* be reduced to 50% for all PvErs?

You're being close minded about the PvP/PvE thing. This (and many other changes in the game) is about game balance design and bug fixes, not "some PvPer whined".

timidobserver

Ezareth wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

I noticed something the other day dont know if its relevent but.

Testing on saber cats vet 10 in the rift if you use element weakness + sharpened + apprentice and enough divine pieces you can actually get your spells to do more damage then what is stated on the tool tip without a critical hit as I saw on cls.

This I either a bug, or cls is reporting wrong I was using crushing shock when I noticed it. If this a bug, it could mean you start getting more damage as you put resistance into negative values on the target instead of the spell just doing its full tool tip value it starts doing more.

I really hope this isn't exploitable, infactvi hope cls is wrong, someone should try it and see if they can reproduce.

This has always been the case. "Overpiercing" spell resistance provides around a ~10% bonus damage modifier. It makes no mathematical sense and has no reference or explanation for it in anything in the game.

Nirnhoned and Sharpened staves used to do this.

timidobserver wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

It was obvious to everyone no matter how much they argue to the contrary that this one trait is far more powerful than any armor trait deserves to be. A sure indicator something is OP is the moment every hardcore player such as myself(and many others here) instantly converts all their gear over to it.

Additionally it further increased the divide between Medium and Light armors and stamina builds in general not just because Magicka damage is cut significantly but because the protection it offers to light armor it offers twice as much to on Medium armor and 3 times as much to Heavy. Force multipliers in this game should be a rare and extremely limited thing, not something you can stack on 8 pieces of crafted gear.

Everyone (including ZoS) evidently thought this armor trait was working just like Reinforced and the patch notes mention that specifically. Once it became clear that it was multiplicative with your overall spell resist people started switching in droves. There is a reason Fortified Nirncrux which used to sell for 10K is now selling for 19K.

Sure, every PvPer converts their gear to it. Every time PvPers find a way to make people whine about dying, I have to remake my gear or respec my skills because stuff gets nerfed.

So you're saying as a PvEr the content that ZoS designs to be difficult should be trivialized? People weren't exploiting Nirnhoned staves and doing insane damage to bosses that should have some inate resistance. You're saying all Magickal PvE damage should *easily* be reduced to 50% for all PvErs?

You're being close minded about the PvP/PvE thing. This (and many other changes in the game) is about game balance design and bug fixes, not "some PvPer whined".

Why would you ask me if I am saying stuff that I did not say rather than just reading what I am saying? What I said is pretty clear. I am tired of PvP balancing having an adverse affect on things that are fine in PvE. It is literally every other week that something else is nerfed over PvP. All of that other random stuff you are throwing out that I've said nothing about is just a strawman.

Ezareth

timidobserver wrote: »

Why would you ask me if I am saying stuff that I did not say rather than just reading what I am saying? What I said is pretty clear. I am tired of PvP balancing having an adverse affect on things that are fine in PvE. It is literally every other week that something else is nerfed over PvP. All of that other random stuff you are throwing out that I've said nothing about is just a strawman.

You're just being obtuse now.

You and I both know this was never intended and it is not a "balance" thing. It's a bug fix and as others have pointed out its impact was likely felt more in PvE than in PVP. Content was not balanced around everyone having 33K Spell Resistance so why pretend that "things are fine in PvE" when they're clearly not?

timidobserver

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Why would you ask me if I am saying stuff that I did not say rather than just reading what I am saying? What I said is pretty clear. I am tired of PvP balancing having an adverse affect on things that are fine in PvE. It is literally every other week that something else is nerfed over PvP. All of that other random stuff you are throwing out that I've said nothing about is just a strawman.

You're just being obtuse now.

You and I both know this was never intended and it is not a "balance" thing. It's a bug fix and as others have pointed out its impact was likely felt more in PvE than in PVP. Content was not balanced around everyone having 33K Spell Resistance so why pretend that "things are fine in PvE" when they're clearly not?

If PvP was a none issue, I am pretty sure this change would not be happening.

You won't find many effective PvErs running with 33k Spell Resistance other than tanks. Stacking too much mitigation isn't an issue in PvE. Most PvErs have just enough nirnhoned to get their mitigations to the point that everything doesn't kill them instantly, if they even have any given how bad crafted gear is for PVE in general at the moment.

Makkir

Ezareth wrote: »

This has always been the case. "Overpiercing" spell resistance provides around a ~10% bonus damage modifier. It makes no mathematical sense and has no reference or explanation for it in anything in the game.

Nirnhoned and Sharpened staves used to do this.

@Ezareth Didn't you know? ZOS uses common core to arrive at these numbers. Because if Joe has two apples and gives one to Susan and then buys 3 more, he now has 2 Monkeys and an Orange.

Ezareth

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This has always been the case. "Overpiercing" spell resistance provides around a ~10% bonus damage modifier. It makes no mathematical sense and has no reference or explanation for it in anything in the game.

Nirnhoned and Sharpened staves used to do this.

@Ezareth Didn't you know? ZOS uses common core to arrive at these numbers. Because if Joe has two apples and gives one to Susan and then buys 3 more, he now has 2 Monkeys and an Orange.

You know...now that you've broken it down that way, it kind of makes sense.

Thanks!

timidobserver wrote: »

If PvP was a none issue, I am pretty sure this change would not be happening.

You won't find many effective PvErs running with 33k Spell Resistance other than tanks. Stacking too much mitigation isn't an issue in PvE. Most PvErs have just enough nirnhoned to get their mitigations to the point that everything doesn't kill them instantly, if they even have any given how bad crafted gear is for PVE in general at the moment.

Minimizing your defensive stats to the bare minimum required and maximizing your offensive ones is pretty much always the goal of every player in a PvE encounter. Don't you think ZoS figured people should have to sacrifice more than equipping a couple freaking armor traits to become far more effective against encounters with high magick damage? People were still able to beat the same content in 1.5 before this was even buffed so I don't see how it really is such a big deal to anyone on that front.

Makkir

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

And this will the return of Elder Magicka Online. Well, actually it has always been the Elder Magicka Online since day 1: overpowered magicka builds, 1100K damage to kill 1 sorc because of stacking damage shields, magicka builds having both huge offense and defense abilities, etc...

I'll have a look to the next major update, but if nothing is done to balance the game so as to have stamina builds on par with magicka builds it's the end of the game for me.

By the way, I spent over 100k for my Nirn stuff. But who cares...

Edit: with 4 pieces of armor with a nirn trait and 36k spell resist I still get nuked for 8k damage with crystal fragment. Without the nirn trait, it's about 12k damage. How can I compete with my stamina skills that are just ridiculous compared to what magicka skills can do, if I'm not a NB with a bow or a NB chaining surprise attacks?

Part of being an exceptional PvP'er is learning to adapt when changes are made. You can't just make a "Suit for life," in fact you should have extra sets of jewelry at the least for varying situations.
BTW a sorc stacking shields requires a level of attention to continuously be applying those shields. If you realized how weak a Sorc was in 7/7 Light Armor, you would understand why shields are needed right now.

There will always be a meta in PvP, even in games that advertise "Play as you like." Technically yeah you can play your NB any way you like but that doesn't mean you're going to be as effective as your (meaning your class) current meta. This isn't new, it's a long tradition in MMOs.

timidobserver

Ezareth wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This has always been the case. "Overpiercing" spell resistance provides around a ~10% bonus damage modifier. It makes no mathematical sense and has no reference or explanation for it in anything in the game.

Nirnhoned and Sharpened staves used to do this.

@Ezareth Didn't you know? ZOS uses common core to arrive at these numbers. Because if Joe has two apples and gives one to Susan and then buys 3 more, he now has 2 Monkeys and an Orange.

You know...now that you've broken it down that way, it kind of makes sense.

Thanks!

timidobserver wrote: »

If PvP was a none issue, I am pretty sure this change would not be happening.

You won't find many effective PvErs running with 33k Spell Resistance other than tanks. Stacking too much mitigation isn't an issue in PvE. Most PvErs have just enough nirnhoned to get their mitigations to the point that everything doesn't kill them instantly, if they even have any given how bad crafted gear is for PVE in general at the moment.

Minimizing your defensive stats to the bare minimum required and maximizing your offensive ones is pretty much always the goal of every player in a PvE encounter. Don't you think ZoS figured people should have to sacrifice more than equipping a couple freaking armor traits to become far more effective against encounters with high magick damage? People were still able to beat the same content in 1.5 before this was even buffed so I don't see how it really is such a big deal to anyone on that front.

No I do not. This is a PvP change. All of the complaints are in PvP threads, and the announcement was made in a PvP thread.

Domander

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Figures...make a set of armor today and the nerf it a week later heh

Sorry to hear that. For what it's worth the next major update won't be until after console launch in June.

Please, don't be sorry. If it was crafted for it's intended purpose then he should be fine, if it was crafted because nirnhoned is broken, then.. like I said..

Domander

woodsro wrote: »

I noticed something the other day dont know if its relevent but.

Testing on saber cats vet 10 in the rift if you use element weakness + sharpened + apprentice and enough divine pieces you can actually get your spells to do more damage then what is stated on the tool tip without a critical hit as I saw on cls.

This I either a bug, or cls is reporting wrong I was using crushing shock when I noticed it. If this a bug, it could mean you start getting more damage as you put resistance into negative values on the target instead of the spell just doing its full tool tip value it starts doing more.

I really hope this isn't exploitable, infactvi hope cls is wrong, someone should try it and see if they can reproduce.

There are damage increasing passives that won't reflect in the tooltip.

PeggymoeXD

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

you have got to be kidding me. I have literally been working nonstop towards Alliance Rank 24 to be able to unlock vigor. I recently got 23 and am a fourth of the way through. Now, once again, my hard work in this game will be stripped from me. Just like motifs in the crown store. I farmed every single one for weeks and finally collected them all on my own. I still use Motif Master Brown as a dye on my gear. I can see the road this game is going down.

Takuto

So vigor gets moved from AR24, which requires 7,840,700 alliance points, to AR5, which requires 88,700 alliance points.

Currently vigor is at a point that will require the average player ~1000 hours of PvP to acquire, making it easily the most extreme grind in the game. Now it is announced that it will be changed so that it can be gained by any random level 10 after a night or two.

What is the reasoning behind jumping between such extremes?

david.haypreub18_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Great to hear! I think this is the sort of thing that might be changed a bit sooner, but I am glad at least the problem is known and will be fixed.

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

Even better to hear!

Bouvin

Takuto wrote: »

So vigor gets moved from AR24, which requires 7,840,700 alliance points, to AR5, which requires 88,700 alliance points.

Currently vigor is at a point that will require the average player ~1000 hours of PvP to acquire, making it easily the most extreme grind in the game. Now it is announced that it will be changed so that it can be gained by any random level 10 after a night or two.

What is the reasoning behind jumping between such extremes?

I think they meant Skill @ 5, which would be AR10?

Personally, if Caltrops is 6, Vigor should be 7 or 8. Yes, 10 is high, but 5 is a tad low if you ask me.

TheBull

Unkillable Sorcerers running around with spamable shield that prevent everything from crits to chain pulls, doing 20+ with crystal frags, with the possibility of having 20k+ spell pen, undressing ALL but tanks.

Should they be able to remove all of a tanks resistance? Shouldn't a tank be able to mitigate some of the damage taken?

Who answered this for you? Are they even out here in Cyrodiil?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Domander

TheBull wrote: »

Unkillable Sorcerers running around with spamable shield that prevent everything from crits to chain pulls, doing 20+ with crystal frags, with the possibility of having 20k+ spell pen, undressing ALL but tanks.

Should they be able to remove all of a tanks resistance? Shouldn't a tank be able to mitigate some of the damage taken?

Who answered this for you? Are they even out here in Cyrodiil?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Are you? have you tried not being a sorc and being magicka based?

timidobserver

Takuto wrote: »

So vigor gets moved from AR24, which requires 7,840,700 alliance points, to AR5, which requires 88,700 alliance points.

Currently vigor is at a point that will require the average player ~1000 hours of PvP to acquire, making it easily the most extreme grind in the game. Now it is announced that it will be changed so that it can be gained by any random level 10 after a night or two.

What is the reasoning behind jumping between such extremes?

Sticking it at 8 would be better.

Morvul

Takuto wrote: »

So vigor gets moved from AR24, which requires 7,840,700 alliance points, to AR5, which requires 88,700 alliance points.

Currently vigor is at a point that will require the average player ~1000 hours of PvP to acquire, making it easily the most extreme grind in the game. Now it is announced that it will be changed so that it can be gained by any random level 10 after a night or two.

What is the reasoning behind jumping between such extremes?

whoever proposed the change sees that 5 is half of 10, and has no idea of the actual AP numbers behind it.
At least that's my theory

Morvul

Bouvin wrote: »

Takuto wrote: »

So vigor gets moved from AR24, which requires 7,840,700 alliance points, to AR5, which requires 88,700 alliance points.

Currently vigor is at a point that will require the average player ~1000 hours of PvP to acquire, making it easily the most extreme grind in the game. Now it is announced that it will be changed so that it can be gained by any random level 10 after a night or two.

What is the reasoning behind jumping between such extremes?

Personally, if Caltrops is 6, Vigor should be 7 or 8. Yes, 10 is high, but 5 is a tad low if you ask me.

agree

Seri

timidobserver wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Minimizing your defensive stats to the bare minimum required and maximizing your offensive ones is pretty much always the goal of every player in a PvE encounter. Don't you think ZoS figured people should have to sacrifice more than equipping a couple freaking armor traits to become far more effective against encounters with high magick damage? People were still able to beat the same content in 1.5 before this was even buffed so I don't see how it really is such a big deal to anyone on that front.

No I do not. This is a PvP change. All of the complaints are in PvP threads, and the announcement was made in a PvP thread.

Because I'm sure the PvE mobs would be complaining here if they felt they were under-powered or their attacks weren't hitting hard enough, right? You're never going to see a user come in and say 'I feel <insert boss here> isn't strong enough because I stack nirn armor'.

PvP is the only way to properly balance stam and magicka against each other because it's the only stam and magicka are directly pitted against each other at the 'same' level. How a magicka or stam build goes against a 250k HP boss doesn't.

Iyas

Sry the nirnhoned change is a bad idea. I have my 3 pieces only because of the sorc dmg open field and im still getting hit for 8k velicious and 10k crystal.
Only because some deffsorcs with s/s like ezareth are crying that they dont do dmg, dont listen to them...

manny254

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

you have got to be kidding me. I have literally been working nonstop towards Alliance Rank 24 to be able to unlock vigor. I recently got 23 and am a fourth of the way through. Now, once again, my hard work in this game will be stripped from me. Just like motifs in the crown store. I farmed every single one for weeks and finally collected them all on my own. I still use Motif Master Brown as a dye on my gear. I can see the road this game is going down.

I am in a similar situation. I am about 50k ap away from 24. Although tbh my alts will be very happy about it.

Xsorus

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

you have got to be kidding me. I have literally been working nonstop towards Alliance Rank 24 to be able to unlock vigor. I recently got 23 and am a fourth of the way through. Now, once again, my hard work in this game will be stripped from me. Just like motifs in the crown store. I farmed every single one for weeks and finally collected them all on my own. I still use Motif Master Brown as a dye on my gear. I can see the road this game is going down.

I have a DK who i grinded to 24 on just to get Vigor, and i personally don't care if they lower the Rank required to get it.

It should of never required Rank 10 in the first place...

Attorneyatlawl

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

It was obvious to everyone no matter how much they argue to the contrary that this one trait is far more powerful than any armor trait deserves to be. A sure indicator something is OP is the moment every hardcore player such as myself(and many others here) instantly converts all their gear over to it.

Additionally it further increased the divide between Medium and Light armors and stamina builds in general not just because Magicka damage is cut significantly but because the protection it offers to light armor it offers twice as much to on Medium armor and 3 times as much to Heavy. Force multipliers in this game should be a rare and extremely limited thing, not something you can stack on 8 pieces of crafted gear.

Everyone (including ZoS) evidently thought this armor trait was working just like Reinforced and the patch notes mention that specifically. Once it became clear that it was multiplicative with your overall spell resist people started switching in droves. There is a reason Fortified Nirncrux which used to sell for 10K is now selling for 19K.

It's worked the same way since it was introduced. This isn't a recent change or anything .

PeggymoeXD

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

you have got to be kidding me. I have literally been working nonstop towards Alliance Rank 24 to be able to unlock vigor. I recently got 23 and am a fourth of the way through. Now, once again, my hard work in this game will be stripped from me. Just like motifs in the crown store. I farmed every single one for weeks and finally collected them all on my own. I still use Motif Master Brown as a dye on my gear. I can see the road this game is going down.

I have a DK who i grinded to 24 on just to get Vigor, and i personally don't care if they lower the Rank required to get it.

It should of never required Rank 10 in the first place...

Okay, thank you for your opinion. Whether or not you approve of this change is not my concern, good sir. The hours I've grinded away working toward this particular goal are being taken from me, and I personally don't like that.

Joy_Division

timidobserver wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Thank you! Very good info to know for gear planning.

Weberda wrote: »

Vigor at Alliance rank 5. Congrats ZOS. You're turning PvP into a real joke. Kids complain because they have to earn something and you just cave in like marshmallows. Between this and the keeps bonuses outside of Cyrodiil you may as well just give everybody all the goodies and make everybody V14 so they don't have to work for that either and shut down PvP. That will take care of some of the lag anyway. And those of us who pay for a challenge in a game can go elsewhere.

I am not a kid. That is the problem, actually. I understand wanting something to strive for and look forward to in PVP, but Vigor was undeniably too long of a grind for such a powerful skill when you consider a lot of people like to have alts and that Vigor really adds a ton of viability. As I said in the OP, fine with it being rank 10 if your PVP skill line rank was account wide, but with the current set up for all but the top 5% (just a guess), Vigor was out of reach on an alt.

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

If Nirnhorned was giving more spell resist than they expected, then it wasn't 'nerfed over PVP'. It is being brought back in line to what they originally intended. I hope they keep it pretty good actually because of its added cost. For all we know, making PVE harder may be their primary reason for fixing this now that they know about it.

...It's pretty obvious that it is PvP. You see the nerf announced in the alliance war thread not a PVE section thread? Honestly, on this nothing you say can change my opinion because it isn't about nirnhoned. It's just a culmination of all of the nerfs to various things that have occurred over PvP. This is just one of them.

Now there is an admirable attitude.

pppontus

timidobserver wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Why would you ask me if I am saying stuff that I did not say rather than just reading what I am saying? What I said is pretty clear. I am tired of PvP balancing having an adverse affect on things that are fine in PvE. It is literally every other week that something else is nerfed over PvP. All of that other random stuff you are throwing out that I've said nothing about is just a strawman.

You're just being obtuse now.

You and I both know this was never intended and it is not a "balance" thing. It's a bug fix and as others have pointed out its impact was likely felt more in PvE than in PVP. Content was not balanced around everyone having 33K Spell Resistance so why pretend that "things are fine in PvE" when they're clearly not?

If PvP was a none issue, I am pretty sure this change would not be happening.

You won't find many effective PvErs running with 33k Spell Resistance other than tanks. Stacking too much mitigation isn't an issue in PvE. Most PvErs have just enough nirnhoned to get their mitigations to the point that everything doesn't kill them instantly, if they even have any given how bad crafted gear is for PVE in general at the moment.

LOL.

Everyone who's even remotely smart is running around with hard capped SR in PVE, makes AA & SO Hard Modes trivial. As usual PVE people get sad because the mobs can't complain that they are OP.

but sure, you continue to claim that reducing damage by 50% by using 3-4 trait slots is somehow a good thing for balance.

pppontus

Iyas wrote: »

Sry the nirnhoned change is a bad idea. I have my 3 pieces only because of the sorc dmg open field and im still getting hit for 8k velicious and 10k crystal.
Only because some deffsorcs with s/s like ezareth are crying that they dont do dmg, dont listen to them...

But 12k snipes in full heavy armor is working as intended right?

The current everything kills you in 0,5s meta is complete ***, but at least make it balanced ***. I've created 4 Imperials now because my old characters are pretty useless. My Magicka DK does more damage with light attacks with swords than molten whip against light armor ppl with nirnhoned. One guy I hit for 800 damage

trimsic_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It is so so so frustrating. Again stuff is getting nerfed over PvP. So, in order to make it balanced for pvp, it will probably be made useless for PvE. On top of that, you are probably going to break it again in the process since that seems to happen every time nirnhoned or sharpened is touched. Sharpened and Nirnhoned have worked properly at the same time for probably 2-3 total weeks over the last 3 months.

I like just about everything about ESO. I am cool with the Champion System, the Crown Store, even the Console launch. This constant trashing of gear and skills over PvP is my one and only issue. Somebody is mad because they died, so my gear has to be remade.

It was obvious to everyone no matter how much they argue to the contrary that this one trait is far more powerful than any armor trait deserves to be. A sure indicator something is OP is the moment every hardcore player such as myself(and many others here) instantly converts all their gear over to it.

Additionally it further increased the divide between Medium and Light armors and stamina builds in general not just because Magicka damage is cut significantly but because the protection it offers to light armor it offers twice as much to on Medium armor and 3 times as much to Heavy. Force multipliers in this game should be a rare and extremely limited thing, not something you can stack on 8 pieces of crafted gear.

Everyone (including ZoS) evidently thought this armor trait was working just like Reinforced and the patch notes mention that specifically. Once it became clear that it was multiplicative with your overall spell resist people started switching in droves. There is a reason Fortified Nirncrux which used to sell for 10K is now selling for 19K.

Everyone converted to it because Sorcs damage and survival is over the top.

When you're running solo, you build your toon to defend against the most powerful thing on the field...and that's currently Sorcs.

Exactly this, and this is the reason why so many PvPers have spent 100k+ gold to equip a stuff with the Nirn trait.

trimsic_ESO

Makkir wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for your patience, folks. We have some answers to both questions below. It's worth mentioning that these answers are straight from the combat team, headed up by Eric Wrobel.

Erock25 wrote: »

I have two questions that I would really appreciate an answer to.

1. Is Nirnhorned armor working as intended? As it is on live, a few pieces of Nirnhorned easily brings you up to the hard cap on spell resist even in Light Armor. Each piece of Nirnhorned is increasing total spell resist by the listed percentage. It is working as the Nirnhorned tooltip states, but I was wondering if you could provide a bit of clarity if this is indeed the intended mechanic.

Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful. This change is currently slated to go into the next major update.

And this will the return of Elder Magicka Online. Well, actually it has always been the Elder Magicka Online since day 1: overpowered magicka builds, 1100K damage to kill 1 sorc because of stacking damage shields, magicka builds having both huge offense and defense abilities, etc...

I'll have a look to the next major update, but if nothing is done to balance the game so as to have stamina builds on par with magicka builds it's the end of the game for me.

By the way, I spent over 100k for my Nirn stuff. But who cares...

Edit: with 4 pieces of armor with a nirn trait and 36k spell resist I still get nuked for 8k damage with crystal fragment. Without the nirn trait, it's about 12k damage. How can I compete with my stamina skills that are just ridiculous compared to what magicka skills can do, if I'm not a NB with a bow or a NB chaining surprise attacks?

Part of being an exceptional PvP'er is learning to adapt when changes are made. You can't just make a "Suit for life," in fact you should have extra sets of jewelry at the least for varying situations.
BTW a sorc stacking shields requires a level of attention to continuously be applying those shields. If you realized how weak a Sorc was in 7/7 Light Armor, you would understand why shields are needed right now.

There will always be a meta in PvP, even in games that advertise "Play as you like." Technically yeah you can play your NB any way you like but that doesn't mean you're going to be as effective as your (meaning your class) current meta. This isn't new, it's a long tradition in MMOs.

I agree the reasoning. So please ZOS, make stamina builds more powerfull than magicka builds, that would be the very first time since the release. Yes it would be a huge change, and people will have to adapt, but you know what? It's a long tradition in MMOs.