@ZOS - two questions on Nirnhorned and Vigor

Ezareth

woodsro wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I'm aware of everything you've said and I know you're excited to be joining the ranks of stamina users but just because something is *partially* counterable does not make it balanced.

The argument that....well if you put 100 champion points into a passive, change your Mundus stone to Apprentice, Use a legendary Nirnhoned Staff, 5 Pieces of Light Armor, ensure you slot and cast Elemental Weakness on all your targets you can cancel out a freaking armor trait's effectiveness....*with Destro Staff abilities* is ludicrous.

Why do I even spend the time debating arguments such as these? We're not talking about someone who Sacrificed DPS and such by going full Heavy Armor here....we're talking about *armor traits*.

The last time I checked the third point I put into Spell erosion (Which is about 3-6 times as effective of the later points) increased my Power Overload damage against a high SR target by 18 Damage.

Not everyone wants to use Destro Staff abilities and I'm already aware that they passive is providing far more than 10% Spell Penetration. So all the Sorc class abilities are just screwed then right?

Tell you what. Put together your scenario of maximum Penetration and test it out. Then test with abilities like Crystal Fragments. I can pull numbers out of my rear and make a point about something but I have yet to conduct a single test in ESO and walk away understanding a mechanic is working exactly as the tooltip or common sense would expect....and I've conducted many tests in this game. I have a Spreadshseet right now that is over 400 lines of data from conducting tests in game. Who knows maybe they fixed everything and everything is working as intended

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Easy Ezareth. Yes i am excited to be joining the stamina world just for a different style, but i can always go back. This is something i have wanted to try for months, just never got around to it.

I'll concede, if it does prove to be over the top in the next few weeks, then by all means adjust it. The point i was trying to make is im not a fan of knee jerk reactions and jumping the gun to nerf. If they do nerf it, lets hope they don't make it usless, perhaps make it like reinforced but a good bit better per armor piece maybe?

I'm not prone to knee jerks. It's easy to tell who is using Nirnhoned and who is not and I can't kill players right now using Nirnhoned unless they're terrible players.

I have calculated everything, come up with my own conclusions and solutions for everything I do. Once I discovered that Nirnhoned was multiplicative with your overall spell resistance I didn't need to calculate to know it was OP. That's why I started talking about it and spreading the word all over the forums. Now there are many people who knew this is how Nirnhoned was working and kept quiet about it. They wanted to have a secret upper hand against the players who weren't "in the know".

Spell resistance protection was changed in many ways in 1.6. Stacking SR/Armor used to have Diminishing returns, now the protection scales linearly and it has logarithmic increasing returns on the damage you receive and this compounds the Nirnhoned issue even further where in 1.5 it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

I stated earlier I could accept it being reduced to 10%, even 12.5% if it remained multiplicative. If it affects the Armor piece only it should be 32% instead of 24% as reinforced provides 16% Armor *and* spell resistance and gives overall more protection than Nirnhoned would.

At 10%-12.5% multiplicative It would still be better than any other trait by far but it wouldn't give everyone "Easy mode" maximum Spell Resistance. Armor traits are supposed to be impact you in *minor* ways, not be force multipliers and game-changers.

Ifthir_ESO

vigor change will just mean even more people rolling stam builds with steel tornado and vigor spam

cschwingeb14_ESO

FYI, if anyone is looking for an easy PvE mob to do some spell penetration testing on, the Covenant Incendiary VR1 mobs outside of Bal Foyen (EP starter zone) have some very high spell resist. My testing shows that they have about 38-40% mitigation vs Crystal Fragments tooltip, when I have no light armor, no apprentice and using a precise restore staff. I don't think I had any +mag damage CP

Testing from after the nirnhoned weapon fix showed that sharpened and nirnhoned were being treated in a different way than the flat penetration given by 5light or apprentice or debuff. Sadly I didn't do any destro passive testing

It's not as good as a PvP partner, but they do seem to follow the PvP rules or resist vs pen

Ezareth

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

FYI, if anyone is looking for an easy PvE mob to do some spell penetration testing on, the Covenant Incendiary VR1 mobs outside of Bal Foyen (EP starter zone) have some very high spell resist. My testing shows that they have about 38-40% mitigation vs Crystal Fragments tooltip, when I have no light armor, no apprentice and using a precise restore staff. I don't think I had any +mag damage CP

Testing from after the nirnhoned weapon fix showed that sharpened and nirnhoned were being treated in a different way than the flat penetration given by 5light or apprentice or debuff. Sadly I didn't do any destro passive testing

It's not as good as a PvP partner, but they do seem to follow the PvP rules or resist vs pen

The guards in Cyrodiil have similar resistances. Still I find in any research, making assumptions will often ruin the entire experiment. Test every possible variable and don't leave anything unknown. I think for any PvP testing you have to work hand in hand with someone who can tell you exactly what they're doing, what they're wearing and what their spell resist is. You also need to test everything completely naked first to determine your baseline.

One of the things I'm interested in testing is exactly how the Cyrodiil reduction buff works. Is that reduction done first or is it additive with other protection?

Xsorus

eliisra wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everyone converted to it because Sorcs damage and survival is over the top.

When you're running solo, you build your toon to defend against the most powerful thing on the field...and that's currently Sorcs.

I dont think that's the main reason. If there was a broken trait that gave up to 24% physical resist each pieces, than people would abuse the hell out of that one to, over using reinforced. I know I would, on every single one of my characters.

Wouldn't matter that sorcerers hit hard with magicka, players would still run around with 33k physical resist, to take all weapon dmg users out of the equation. Anything that's overtuned will be popular, regardless of class balance.

Yet magicka sorcs are probably the least bothered by nirn. Even with 50% spell resists, you can hit pretty damn hard with pen/spell stacked Crystal Fragment. While other classes using magicka, you can tank those indefinitely with nirn traits, only need to hit Harness Magicka once in a while. I almost feel a bit bad when DK's stand there whipping and whipping me, trying with good old Talons, breathing some fire, but nothing happens.

You think i'm running Nirnhoned because Magicka Templars/Nightblades/DKs are a major threat? The next major threat after Sorcs right now is Stamina Nightblades..But they're at least killable to some extent.

If Sorcs weren't so over the top..I'd be using Reinforced (in fact that's what I was using on most of my sets) just to increase both resist up.

If there was a trait that gave 24% physical resist to each piece as well i'd still use Nirnhoned as well..Because like I said.. you build towards the greatest threat on the field.

Xsorus

Weberda wrote: »

If Vigor is moving down to AR5 then it should be nerfed accordingly. Skills should have effects appropriate to the level they unlock on.

No ability in this game works that way.

I'll give you an example..

Wrecking Blow and Focused Aim

They're virtually the same ability..yet one comes sooner then the other.

Iyas

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everyone converted to it because Sorcs damage and survival is over the top.

When you're running solo, you build your toon to defend against the most powerful thing on the field...and that's currently Sorcs.

I dont think that's the main reason. If there was a broken trait that gave up to 24% physical resist each pieces, than people would abuse the hell out of that one to, over using reinforced. I know I would, on every single one of my characters.

Wouldn't matter that sorcerers hit hard with magicka, players would still run around with 33k physical resist, to take all weapon dmg users out of the equation. Anything that's overtuned will be popular, regardless of class balance.

Yet magicka sorcs are probably the least bothered by nirn. Even with 50% spell resists, you can hit pretty damn hard with pen/spell stacked Crystal Fragment. While other classes using magicka, you can tank those indefinitely with nirn traits, only need to hit Harness Magicka once in a while. I almost feel a bit bad when DK's stand there whipping and whipping me, trying with good old Talons, breathing some fire, but nothing happens.

You think i'm running Nirnhoned because Magicka Templars/Nightblades/DKs are a major threat? The next major threat after Sorcs right now is Stamina Nightblades..But they're at least killable to some extent.

If Sorcs weren't so over the top..I'd be using Reinforced (in fact that's what I was using on most of my sets) just to increase both resist up.

If there was a trait that gave 24% physical resist to each piece as well i'd still use Nirnhoned as well..Because like I said.. you build towards the greatest threat on the field.

Exactly

Valnas

All this nonsense about sorcs being op is honestly silly. Stam builds are doing 1 shot dmg with no counter, we are 100% hard countered by a simple gear choice everyone can make. If you are dieing to sorcs in this meta you should prolly just quit.

Erock25

Valnas wrote: »

All this nonsense about sorcs being op is honestly silly. Stam builds are doing 1 shot dmg with no counter, we are 100% hard countered by a simple gear choice everyone can make. If you are dieing to sorcs in this meta you should prolly just quit.

And the crazy part is that some of the loudest complainers are absolutely tearing up the competition in PVP. I don't understand how someone can release videos of themselves decimating people (even good Sorcs) and then come here and complain.

Ezareth

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everyone converted to it because Sorcs damage and survival is over the top.

When you're running solo, you build your toon to defend against the most powerful thing on the field...and that's currently Sorcs.

I dont think that's the main reason. If there was a broken trait that gave up to 24% physical resist each pieces, than people would abuse the hell out of that one to, over using reinforced. I know I would, on every single one of my characters.

Wouldn't matter that sorcerers hit hard with magicka, players would still run around with 33k physical resist, to take all weapon dmg users out of the equation. Anything that's overtuned will be popular, regardless of class balance.

Yet magicka sorcs are probably the least bothered by nirn. Even with 50% spell resists, you can hit pretty damn hard with pen/spell stacked Crystal Fragment. While other classes using magicka, you can tank those indefinitely with nirn traits, only need to hit Harness Magicka once in a while. I almost feel a bit bad when DK's stand there whipping and whipping me, trying with good old Talons, breathing some fire, but nothing happens.

You think i'm running Nirnhoned because Magicka Templars/Nightblades/DKs are a major threat? The next major threat after Sorcs right now is Stamina Nightblades..But they're at least killable to some extent.

If Sorcs weren't so over the top..I'd be using Reinforced (in fact that's what I was using on most of my sets) just to increase both resist up.

If there was a trait that gave 24% physical resist to each piece as well i'd still use Nirnhoned as well..Because like I said.. you build towards the greatest threat on the field.

You're wearing medium and heavy armor and there aren't nearly as many piercing options for physical damage plus you can dodge roll infinitely. Of course you'd use Nirnhoned because the majority of the damage that can hit you through dodge roll is Magickal. It has nothing to do with Sorcs "being the largest threat".

I never look at another sorc on the battlefield as a large threat...I look at them as annoyances to keep an eye on or if they're streak easy AP. It's the DKs with 2 handers and Stealth NBs that I view as the largest threat on the battlefield. Those are the guys who will kill me in a heartbeat with a single mistake on my part.

It's funny how the perspective changes based on the class you play.....as it should.

Rust_in_Peace

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You think i'm running Nirnhoned because Magicka Templars/Nightblades/DKs are a major threat? The next major threat after Sorcs right now is Stamina Nightblades..But they're at least killable to some extent.

If Sorcs weren't so over the top..I'd be using Reinforced (in fact that's what I was using on most of my sets) just to increase both resist up.

If there was a trait that gave 24% physical resist to each piece as well i'd still use Nirnhoned as well..Because like I said.. you build towards the greatest threat on the field.

This guy gets it.

Valnas wrote: »

All this nonsense about sorcs being op is honestly silly. Stam builds are doing 1 shot dmg with no counter, we are 100% hard countered by a simple gear choice everyone can make. If you are dieing to sorcs in this meta you should prolly just quit.

What NB are 1 shotting sorcs? I don't know anything that can get through a 25k shield and 18k health at the moment but if you do let me know.

Xsorus

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everyone converted to it because Sorcs damage and survival is over the top.

When you're running solo, you build your toon to defend against the most powerful thing on the field...and that's currently Sorcs.

I dont think that's the main reason. If there was a broken trait that gave up to 24% physical resist each pieces, than people would abuse the hell out of that one to, over using reinforced. I know I would, on every single one of my characters.

Wouldn't matter that sorcerers hit hard with magicka, players would still run around with 33k physical resist, to take all weapon dmg users out of the equation. Anything that's overtuned will be popular, regardless of class balance.

Yet magicka sorcs are probably the least bothered by nirn. Even with 50% spell resists, you can hit pretty damn hard with pen/spell stacked Crystal Fragment. While other classes using magicka, you can tank those indefinitely with nirn traits, only need to hit Harness Magicka once in a while. I almost feel a bit bad when DK's stand there whipping and whipping me, trying with good old Talons, breathing some fire, but nothing happens.

You think i'm running Nirnhoned because Magicka Templars/Nightblades/DKs are a major threat? The next major threat after Sorcs right now is Stamina Nightblades..But they're at least killable to some extent.

If Sorcs weren't so over the top..I'd be using Reinforced (in fact that's what I was using on most of my sets) just to increase both resist up.

If there was a trait that gave 24% physical resist to each piece as well i'd still use Nirnhoned as well..Because like I said.. you build towards the greatest threat on the field.

You're wearing medium and heavy armor and there aren't nearly as many piercing options for physical damage plus you can dodge roll infinitely. Of course you'd use Nirnhoned because the majority of the damage that can hit you through dodge roll is Magickal. It has nothing to do with Sorcs "being the largest threat".

I never look at another sorc on the battlefield as a large threat...I look at them as annoyances to keep an eye on or if they're streak easy AP. It's the DKs with 2 handers and Stealth NBs that I view as the largest threat on the battlefield. Those are the guys who will kill me in a heartbeat with a single mistake on my part.

It's funny how the perspective changes based on the class you play.....as it should.

On my DK I run 2 Heavy, 5 Medium... I was running reinforced on the 5 Medium Armor pieces...I switched to running Nirnhoned because of Sorcs and Sorcs alone. It had nothing to do with getting hit through dodge roll..Because Stamina Nightblades seem to have zero problem exploding me through that.

i also find it funny you don't find other sorcs a threat ..Its probably because you're also playing a Sorc.

You probably think people are stacking the hell out of Weapon Damage right now because they just wanna kill DK's/Nightblades/Templars faster as well.....

They're not..They're stacking the hell out of weapon damage so they can get through Sorc Shields...I was running 5 Heavy/2 Medium before..I switched to my current setup...Trying to balance my Offense vs Defense out...I found that if I did that I couldn't get through Shield Spamming and thus i'd eventually run out of resources and die.

LegendaryMage

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

What NB are 1 shotting sorcs? I don't know anything that can get through a 25k shield and 18k health at the moment but if you do let me know.

@DDuke can rip through anything in a matter of half a second.

Ezareth

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

What NB are 1 shotting sorcs? I don't know anything that can get through a 25k shield and 18k health at the moment but if you do let me know.

@DDuke can rip through anything in a matter of half a second.

As can Ebonheart Nightblade ....on his VR9.

I don't know any Sorcs with 25K shields though.....is that what Hardened ward is up to these days?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everyone converted to it because Sorcs damage and survival is over the top.

When you're running solo, you build your toon to defend against the most powerful thing on the field...and that's currently Sorcs.

I dont think that's the main reason. If there was a broken trait that gave up to 24% physical resist each pieces, than people would abuse the hell out of that one to, over using reinforced. I know I would, on every single one of my characters.

Wouldn't matter that sorcerers hit hard with magicka, players would still run around with 33k physical resist, to take all weapon dmg users out of the equation. Anything that's overtuned will be popular, regardless of class balance.

Yet magicka sorcs are probably the least bothered by nirn. Even with 50% spell resists, you can hit pretty damn hard with pen/spell stacked Crystal Fragment. While other classes using magicka, you can tank those indefinitely with nirn traits, only need to hit Harness Magicka once in a while. I almost feel a bit bad when DK's stand there whipping and whipping me, trying with good old Talons, breathing some fire, but nothing happens.

You think i'm running Nirnhoned because Magicka Templars/Nightblades/DKs are a major threat? The next major threat after Sorcs right now is Stamina Nightblades..But they're at least killable to some extent.

If Sorcs weren't so over the top..I'd be using Reinforced (in fact that's what I was using on most of my sets) just to increase both resist up.

If there was a trait that gave 24% physical resist to each piece as well i'd still use Nirnhoned as well..Because like I said.. you build towards the greatest threat on the field.

You're wearing medium and heavy armor and there aren't nearly as many piercing options for physical damage plus you can dodge roll infinitely. Of course you'd use Nirnhoned because the majority of the damage that can hit you through dodge roll is Magickal. It has nothing to do with Sorcs "being the largest threat".

I never look at another sorc on the battlefield as a large threat...I look at them as annoyances to keep an eye on or if they're streak easy AP. It's the DKs with 2 handers and Stealth NBs that I view as the largest threat on the battlefield. Those are the guys who will kill me in a heartbeat with a single mistake on my part.

It's funny how the perspective changes based on the class you play.....as it should.

On my DK I run 2 Heavy, 5 Medium... I was running reinforced on the 5 Medium Armor pieces...I switched to running Nirnhoned because of Sorcs and Sorcs alone. It had nothing to do with getting hit through dodge roll..Because Stamina Nightblades seem to have zero problem exploding me through that.

i also find it funny you don't find other sorcs a threat ..Its probably because you're also playing a Sorc.

You probably think people are stacking the hell out of Weapon Damage right now because they just wanna kill DK's/Nightblades/Templars faster as well.....

They're not..They're stacking the hell out of weapon damage so they can get through Sorc Shields...I was running 5 Heavy/2 Medium before..I switched to my current setup...Trying to balance my Offense vs Defense out...I found that if I did that I couldn't get through Shield Spamming and thus i'd eventually run out of resources and die.

I don't find them a threat because I know how to play them and I run a Sword and Board with reflect on my bar. I also know how to kill them through their Ball of lightning or even better streak. In other words I know how to play and exactly how to counter them. I'm not saying I don't find the best sorcs a threat....but 95% of the sorcs I see in Cyrodiil are easy kills for me.

People are stacking the hell out of Weapon Damage *and* Spell power right now because people love giant crits and 1-2 shotting people. Don't kid yourself, it has nothing to do with sorcs and shield stacking. Stacking regen beats shield stackers every time unless they're always stacking regen in which case it is a stalemate. I've run into plays of *every* class who are doing this that I can't kill in 10 minute + fights even if they aren't using Nirnhoned.

Cody

i love how this turned into another "Sorc is OP thread"

dang it!!! now I have to set up another trap for Ezareth. His spider sense keeps detecting them..... I must find a way around that.

/sets trap

timidobserver

pppontus wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Why would you ask me if I am saying stuff that I did not say rather than just reading what I am saying? What I said is pretty clear. I am tired of PvP balancing having an adverse affect on things that are fine in PvE. It is literally every other week that something else is nerfed over PvP. All of that other random stuff you are throwing out that I've said nothing about is just a strawman.

You're just being obtuse now.

You and I both know this was never intended and it is not a "balance" thing. It's a bug fix and as others have pointed out its impact was likely felt more in PvE than in PVP. Content was not balanced around everyone having 33K Spell Resistance so why pretend that "things are fine in PvE" when they're clearly not?

If PvP was a none issue, I am pretty sure this change would not be happening.

You won't find many effective PvErs running with 33k Spell Resistance other than tanks. Stacking too much mitigation isn't an issue in PvE. Most PvErs have just enough nirnhoned to get their mitigations to the point that everything doesn't kill them instantly, if they even have any given how bad crafted gear is for PVE in general at the moment.

LOL.

Everyone who's even remotely smart is running around with hard capped SR in PVE, makes AA & SO Hard Modes trivial. As usual PVE people get sad because the mobs can't complain that they are OP.

but sure, you continue to claim that reducing damage by 50% by using 3-4 trait slots is somehow a good thing for balance.

I don't know anyone that is regularly obtaining top leaderboard times that is running around with capped mitigations other than tanks and possibly a healer here and there. I haven't seen anyone posting dps builds with maxed out mitigations.

I am kind of surprised that some people are actually insisting that this change would be happening if not for PvP.

Attorneyatlawl

@Ezareth, I've done plenty of testing and posted parts of it in the past, so I am well aware of how to isolate variables. This has included both pvp testing by dual logging over various patches, and pve. A basic part of testing via the scientific method is to ensure you're checking what you intend to, so by using the exact same raid monster solo and verifying it had high resistances and cross checking against a dual logged second account in cyrodiil, you can indeed know the monster's resistance value, and being the same monster in the same spawn spot in a resettable and respawnable instance of Sanctum Ophidia, there's nothing left to guesswork and I can get baselines of the various combinations of effects, Mundus stone, traits, and everything else. The monster I test on has nearly capped mitigation, for example, and in my dual log tests I can control the values directly via gear and active skills on each to on in Cyrodiil (the test server is handy when specialty items aren't needed thanks to templates at times if it's at the same version, but morph respecs are very inexpensive and cost isn't an issue on Live given that) .

The only reason I added the qualifier on enemy players was in case one of the minipatches (2.0.4 or 2.0.5) changed anything since I didn't recheck since 2.0.3. As far as testing, I already did test using a sorcerer so a lot of Magic damage type hits are available to him in addition to the destro staff skills and class line shock damage. I didn't want to just say that X was the case in 2.0.5 since you mentioned having done current testing possibly and I was looking towards seeing your results. However, it sounds like you're looking at the resistance value on the character sheet and deciding it's too high off of that, correct me if I'm wrong? While I can't speak for your personal experiences in Cyrodiil, I would point out that most good players tend to pick up on the fact that stacking everything into one stat isn't a great idea pretty quickly, so most people will be congregating around some core essentials in any non specialized builds for a character (including myself) and that includes not carrying so little mitigation and health that you fall over in a stray breeze... something not limited to us "actual non glass cannon real pvp" players. Personally, I do a lot of pvp and pve . I also have multiple characters that change gear around depending on what I'm doing in either, such as pure dps, moderate defense when in small groups, or tanky bunker buster with moderate damage for large group pvp.

And as I mentioned, simply throwing two or three nirnhoned trait armors on won't cut it against someone built towards high damage, which naturally includes penetration to ensure you do said damage. You'll net more mitigation than someone not using the nirnhoned in a couple of slots, but not anywhere near as much as people are indicating in this thread where it's being said as gospel it's "easy to hardcap" your resistance (when in actuality you'll carry around 25% or so effectively, not 50%, with the methods they're outlining for gear). And that's only if you are wearing a bunch of heavy armor, 5pc for example, plus a shield or a defending trait weapon, with a few nirnhoned in the mix while using a Major spell resist/armor buff such as immovable brute or boundless storm, which also takes casting and an ability slot. You give up taking less damage from everyone with the new version of impenetrable reducing crit damage, to get extra off of magic damage only. And to get to a significant level of mitigation you need to also handicap your offensive strength and build around it in the process. As I said... balance. And balance isn't based on what people notice but what is available in the game system to use.

Attorneyatlawl

Cody wrote: »

i love how this turned into another "Sorc is OP thread"

dang it!!! now I have to set another up trap for Ezareth. His spider sense keeps detecting them..... I must find a way around that.

/sets trap

It is pretty funny considering sorcs are hardly the only class able to deal huge spell damage out... . But that aside, it's not terrifyingly hard to burst through an enemy's shields since they don't have any mitigation... on my melee DK, I can burn right through it in a couple of seconds tops, while my sorc can do that from range to boot. If someone catches me off guard throws up a reflect I just block the projectile or in the case of my overload hits, dodge roll it since it will generally almost one shot my hardened ward and harness magicka when both are fresh (non crit I see mine hit an enemy DK or Templar's bubbles for around 16k, and if it crits (42% of the time) it whacks it for around 25k thanks to crit dmg champion boosts) . That right there, along with stamina damage being able to go so high, is why a lot of people are running extra protection, because spending the fight dead as soon as someone hits you isn't very fun . Metagame balance always swings around based on what people are running, and this is hardly the last time it will. Right now it's in a pretty good place for class balance, honestly.

Ezareth

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@Ezareth, I've done plenty of testing and posted parts of it in the past, so I am well aware of how to isolate variables. This has included both pvp testing by dual logging over various patches, and pve. A basic part of testing via the scientific method is to ensure you're checking what you intend to, so by using the exact same raid monster solo and verifying it had high resistances and cross checking against a dual logged second account in cyrodiil, you can indeed know the monster's resistance value, and being the same monster in the same spawn spot in a resettable and respawnable instance of Sanctum Ophidia, there's nothing left to guesswork and I can get baselines of the various combinations of effects, Mundus stone, traits, and everything else. The monster I test on has nearly capped mitigation, for example, and in my dual log tests I can control the values directly via gear and active skills on each to on in Cyrodiil (the test server is handy when specialty items aren't needed thanks to templates at times if it's at the same version, but morph respecs are very inexpensive and cost isn't an issue on Live given that) .

The only reason I added the qualifier on enemy players was in case one of the minipatches (2.0.4 or 2.0.5) changed anything since I didn't recheck since 2.0.3. As far as testing, I already did test using a sorcerer so a lot of Magic damage type hits are available to him in addition to the destro staff skills and class line shock damage. I didn't want to just say that X was the case in 2.0.5 since you mentioned having done current testing possibly and I was looking towards seeing your results. However, it sounds like you're looking at the resistance value on the character sheet and deciding it's too high off of that, correct me if I'm wrong? While I can't speak for your personal experiences in Cyrodiil, I would point out that most good players tend to pick up on the fact that stacking everything into one stat isn't a great idea pretty quickly, so most people will be congregating around some core essentials in any non specialized builds for a character (including myself) and that includes not carrying so little mitigation and health that you fall over in a stray breeze... something not limited to us "actual non glass cannon real pvp" players. Personally, I do a lot of pvp and pve . I also have multiple characters that change gear around depending on what I'm doing in either, such as pure dps, moderate defense when in small groups, or tanky bunker buster with moderate damage for large group pvp.

And as I mentioned, simply throwing two or three nirnhoned trait armors on won't cut it against someone built towards high damage, which naturally includes penetration to ensure you do said damage. You'll net more mitigation than someone not using the nirnhoned in a couple of slots, but not anywhere near as much as people are indicating in this thread where it's being said as gospel it's "easy to hardcap" your resistance (when in actuality you'll carry around 25% or so effectively, not 50%, with the methods they're outlining for gear). And that's only if you are wearing a bunch of heavy armor, 5pc for example, plus a shield or a defending trait weapon, with a few nirnhoned in the mix while using a Major spell resist/armor buff such as immovable brute or boundless storm, which also takes casting and an ability slot. You give up taking less damage from everyone with the new version of impenetrable reducing crit damage, to get extra off of magic damage only. And to get to a significant level of mitigation you need to also handicap your offensive strength and build around it in the process. As I said... balance. And balance isn't based on what people notice but what is available in the game system to use.

Can't write a book as I'm typing on a tablet atm but I'm not trying to insinuate that it isn't possible to mitigate a large "percentage" of spell resist. I'm saying penetration is working perfectly as ive tested it. If you have definitive evidence to the contrary please link the data. My own data Is not in an easy to comprehend format but yes I tested various levels of character sheet resistance against isolated and slowly increasing levels of resistance. The absence of nirnhoned weapons on pts makes getting a true test of all factors impossible there. I do know that weapon tooltip values are not indicative of actual penetration given as like levels of penetration give different damage numbers. We can debate the options and merits of penetration all day, but that isn't the real point.

Four main objections to nirnhoned in a simplified format(sorry typing painful ATM):
1: Multiplicative effect further increases the already unbalanced benefits of medium and heavy armor over light....while increasing the need for magicka damage users to stick with light for the penetration.

2: Impact is felt by magical damage players only not spread evenly by impenetrable.

3: Power of the trait far exceeds the value of any other armor trait by powers greater than 2 in even the worst case scenario. It's just too powerful no matter what is possible to partially counter it.

4: Taking the PvP context out of this it trivializes magicka Damage in PvE with very little sacrifice. Bosses do not spell pierce. This means the content must be balanced to expect this kind of resistance which eliminates the choice to use it and this why have it at all?

I could probably think of some other issues with it but I think these are sufficient. It needs to be fixed sooner rather than later.

Xsorus

Ezareth wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

What NB are 1 shotting sorcs? I don't know anything that can get through a 25k shield and 18k health at the moment but if you do let me know.

@DDuke can rip through anything in a matter of half a second.

As can Ebonheart Nightblade ....on his VR9.

I don't know any Sorcs with 25K shields though.....is that what Hardened ward is up to these days?

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everyone converted to it because Sorcs damage and survival is over the top.

When you're running solo, you build your toon to defend against the most powerful thing on the field...and that's currently Sorcs.

I dont think that's the main reason. If there was a broken trait that gave up to 24% physical resist each pieces, than people would abuse the hell out of that one to, over using reinforced. I know I would, on every single one of my characters.

Wouldn't matter that sorcerers hit hard with magicka, players would still run around with 33k physical resist, to take all weapon dmg users out of the equation. Anything that's overtuned will be popular, regardless of class balance.

Yet magicka sorcs are probably the least bothered by nirn. Even with 50% spell resists, you can hit pretty damn hard with pen/spell stacked Crystal Fragment. While other classes using magicka, you can tank those indefinitely with nirn traits, only need to hit Harness Magicka once in a while. I almost feel a bit bad when DK's stand there whipping and whipping me, trying with good old Talons, breathing some fire, but nothing happens.

You think i'm running Nirnhoned because Magicka Templars/Nightblades/DKs are a major threat? The next major threat after Sorcs right now is Stamina Nightblades..But they're at least killable to some extent.

If Sorcs weren't so over the top..I'd be using Reinforced (in fact that's what I was using on most of my sets) just to increase both resist up.

If there was a trait that gave 24% physical resist to each piece as well i'd still use Nirnhoned as well..Because like I said.. you build towards the greatest threat on the field.

You're wearing medium and heavy armor and there aren't nearly as many piercing options for physical damage plus you can dodge roll infinitely. Of course you'd use Nirnhoned because the majority of the damage that can hit you through dodge roll is Magickal. It has nothing to do with Sorcs "being the largest threat".

I never look at another sorc on the battlefield as a large threat...I look at them as annoyances to keep an eye on or if they're streak easy AP. It's the DKs with 2 handers and Stealth NBs that I view as the largest threat on the battlefield. Those are the guys who will kill me in a heartbeat with a single mistake on my part.

It's funny how the perspective changes based on the class you play.....as it should.

On my DK I run 2 Heavy, 5 Medium... I was running reinforced on the 5 Medium Armor pieces...I switched to running Nirnhoned because of Sorcs and Sorcs alone. It had nothing to do with getting hit through dodge roll..Because Stamina Nightblades seem to have zero problem exploding me through that.

i also find it funny you don't find other sorcs a threat ..Its probably because you're also playing a Sorc.

You probably think people are stacking the hell out of Weapon Damage right now because they just wanna kill DK's/Nightblades/Templars faster as well.....

They're not..They're stacking the hell out of weapon damage so they can get through Sorc Shields...I was running 5 Heavy/2 Medium before..I switched to my current setup...Trying to balance my Offense vs Defense out...I found that if I did that I couldn't get through Shield Spamming and thus i'd eventually run out of resources and die.

I don't find them a threat because I know how to play them and I run a Sword and Board with reflect on my bar. I also know how to kill them through their Ball of lightning or even better streak. In other words I know how to play and exactly how to counter them. I'm not saying I don't find the best sorcs a threat....but 95% of the sorcs I see in Cyrodiil are easy kills for me.

People are stacking the hell out of Weapon Damage *and* Spell power right now because people love giant crits and 1-2 shotting people. Don't kid yourself, it has nothing to do with sorcs and shield stacking. Stacking regen beats shield stackers every time unless they're always stacking regen in which case it is a stalemate. I've run into plays of *every* class who are doing this that I can't kill in 10 minute + fights even if they aren't using Nirnhoned.

I run reflects to, and the reason you don't find them a threat is because you are playing a sorc as well, go play any other actual class in pvp and 1v1 a sorc and tell me how ya aren't building for them afterward.

And no one is building for big crits for the hell of it, you think people are running around made of glass for big hits for the hell of it? Or the virtual disappearance of dot builds since 1.6? Please... Don't kid yourself mate...

Ezareth

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I run reflects to, and the reason you don't find them a threat is because you are playing a sorc as well, go play any other actual class in pvp and 1v1 a sorc and tell me how ya aren't building for them afterward.

And no one is building for big crits for the hell of it, you think people are running around made of glass for big hits for the hell of it? Or the virtual disappearance of dot builds since 1.6? Please... Don't kid yourself mate...

I have Reflect on my bar for DKs, not sorcs. My Ball of Lightning is an acceptable defense against most Sorcs, reflect is bonus. I have 1300 stamina regen for Nightblade/DK fear/Petrify spam. I have Daedric Mines for 2-hander build. I have Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation for Stamina builds and endless dodge rolls. Everyone has things in their build to counter popular playstyles that they come across often.

The Scenario you paint that everyone is in Cyrodiil quaking in their boot over sorcs is laughable. Are you really insinuating that people are maximizing their burst damage in PvP for Sorcs? I see *every* class get blown up in PvP....people aren't doing it for Sorcs.

technohic

If ni

Erock25 wrote: »

Valnas wrote: »

All this nonsense about sorcs being op is honestly silly. Stam builds are doing 1 shot dmg with no counter, we are 100% hard countered by a simple gear choice everyone can make. If you are dieing to sorcs in this meta you should prolly just quit.

And the crazy part is that some of the loudest complainers are absolutely tearing up the competition in PVP. I don't understand how someone can release videos of themselves decimating people (even good Sorcs) and then come here and complain.

This works both ways. Its a situation where you have sorcs the only class that can stack magicka for both their best offense and defense (shield. BE. ) and on the other end you have stam pool stackers much the same with their ability to dodge and break free being a lot higher, and that can work best with the classes that are not sorcs. With nirhoned as it is, it certainly leans in the stam builds but once that goes away, then both are just as dangerous yet will still complain about the other.

The real problem will be for those in the middle. For example, with nirhoned; I find it hard to make a case for being magicka based outside of a sorc or a healer. Outside of that, you are way better off with stam. Sorcs has the only shield really worth it on both types of damage and at any amount of health to protect a light armor wearer. A healer can forgo penetration of light for more protection.

Even with this, we are just looking at a single part of the big picture. Mitigation being ignored is too easy outside of bugged nirhoned and burst is a bit obscene overwhelming the use of sustained damage more than ever.

End of the day, OP. UP. Doesn't matter. Game is just screwed up And won't be adjusted until after June.

Xsorus

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I run reflects to, and the reason you don't find them a threat is because you are playing a sorc as well, go play any other actual class in pvp and 1v1 a sorc and tell me how ya aren't building for them afterward.

And no one is building for big crits for the hell of it, you think people are running around made of glass for big hits for the hell of it? Or the virtual disappearance of dot builds since 1.6? Please... Don't kid yourself mate...

I have Reflect on my bar for DKs, not sorcs. My Ball of Lightning is an acceptable defense against most Sorcs, reflect is bonus. I have 1300 stamina regen for Nightblade/DK fear/Petrify spam. I have Daedric Mines for 2-hander build. I have Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation for Stamina builds and endless dodge rolls. Everyone has things in their build to counter popular playstyles that they come across often.

The Scenario you paint that everyone is in Cyrodiil quaking in their boot over sorcs is laughable. Are you really insinuating that people are maximizing their burst damage in PvP for Sorcs? I see *every* class get blown up in PvP....people aren't doing it for Sorcs.

Yes everyone is running insane burst for sorcs, you don't need 3k+ weapon damage to kill a dk, Templar or nightblade with ease, you need that amount of weapon damage to get through a sorc casting hardened wars over and over again. I had zero trouble killing and fighting every single class with just 2.2k weapon damage and 5 heavy setup.. Know which class I couldn't kill? A sorc...

Hypertionb14_ESO

no to changing where they unlock..

yes to making allience skill = to rank.

I.E you will max out allience skill lines at allience rank 10. which is plenty hard to get but not as insane as it currently is.

moving the skills around in the skill line is just stupid.

Tankqull

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I run reflects to, and the reason you don't find them a threat is because you are playing a sorc as well, go play any other actual class in pvp and 1v1 a sorc and tell me how ya aren't building for them afterward.

And no one is building for big crits for the hell of it, you think people are running around made of glass for big hits for the hell of it? Or the virtual disappearance of dot builds since 1.6? Please... Don't kid yourself mate...

I have Reflect on my bar for DKs, not sorcs. My Ball of Lightning is an acceptable defense against most Sorcs, reflect is bonus. I have 1300 stamina regen for Nightblade/DK fear/Petrify spam. I have Daedric Mines for 2-hander build. I have Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation for Stamina builds and endless dodge rolls. Everyone has things in their build to counter popular playstyles that they come across often.

The Scenario you paint that everyone is in Cyrodiil quaking in their boot over sorcs is laughable. Are you really insinuating that people are maximizing their burst damage in PvP for Sorcs? I see *every* class get blown up in PvP....people aren't doing it for Sorcs.

Yes everyone is running insane burst for sorcs, you don't need 3k+ weapon damage to kill a dk, Templar or nightblade with ease, you need that amount of weapon damage to get through a sorc casting hardened wars over and over again. I had zero trouble killing and fighting every single class with just 2.2k weapon damage and 5 heavy setup.. Know which class I couldn't kill? A sorc...

magica NBs, sustain dks, any kind of templar beeing worth a shi. because all of them are not getting into trouble copeing with your pensy dmg.

Xsorus

Tankqull wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I run reflects to, and the reason you don't find them a threat is because you are playing a sorc as well, go play any other actual class in pvp and 1v1 a sorc and tell me how ya aren't building for them afterward.

And no one is building for big crits for the hell of it, you think people are running around made of glass for big hits for the hell of it? Or the virtual disappearance of dot builds since 1.6? Please... Don't kid yourself mate...

I have Reflect on my bar for DKs, not sorcs. My Ball of Lightning is an acceptable defense against most Sorcs, reflect is bonus. I have 1300 stamina regen for Nightblade/DK fear/Petrify spam. I have Daedric Mines for 2-hander build. I have Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation for Stamina builds and endless dodge rolls. Everyone has things in their build to counter popular playstyles that they come across often.

The Scenario you paint that everyone is in Cyrodiil quaking in their boot over sorcs is laughable. Are you really insinuating that people are maximizing their burst damage in PvP for Sorcs? I see *every* class get blown up in PvP....people aren't doing it for Sorcs.

Yes everyone is running insane burst for sorcs, you don't need 3k+ weapon damage to kill a dk, Templar or nightblade with ease, you need that amount of weapon damage to get through a sorc casting hardened wars over and over again. I had zero trouble killing and fighting every single class with just 2.2k weapon damage and 5 heavy setup.. Know which class I couldn't kill? A sorc...

magica NBs, sustain dks, any kind of templar beeing worth a shi. because all of them are not getting into trouble copeing with your pensy dmg.

I had zero trouble with all 3 of those setups while running 5 heavy mid range damage setup.

Keron

So you are waiting to fix the nirnhoned bug until after june. Well, after june is august, isn't it? At the earliest?

Wow, pathetic. I guess that the overwhelming majority of the so-called "skilled" players now run around with nirnhoned equipment, which together with block and CPs makes that everything except wrecking blow does ~100 damage, is intended then.

I mean, it's understandable. You went all the way and introduced a 9th trait that was in the beginning so lacklustre that no one even bothered to learn it. You had to put in first the weapon bug that made it ignore basically all spell resist and now the armor bug, that makes all non physical attacks superfluous just to create a little demand for it.

Perfectly sound business model.

/golfclap.

Samadhi

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

...

Erock25 wrote: »

2. Has there been any further discussion on the Alliance Rank needed to obtain the Vigor skill? The last quote I heard from ZOS on this issue was that they want Alliance Ranks to be a long process to achieve but I feel that putting such a game changing skill at Rank 10 is a bit too much. I could personally accept it at Rank 10 if Alliance Rank was account wide, but as it is currently, none of my alts have any hope of ever reaching Vigor. My main is only Alliance Rank 8, and I spend a vast majority of my time in PVP and have been playing since the first day of early access. I am fairly casual, but just for reference, I gain on average around 1 CP a day (I keep up with enlightenment totals basically).

Yes, there has been further discussion and plans for change are in progress. We plan to move Vigor and Guard to Alliance Rank 5, also in the next major update.

Will there be further adjustments made to the effectiveness of the skill to accommodate the newly required rank; or, will the skill simply become an expected requirement for PvErs to grind out in PvP now that the gating has changed.
The group utility of this skill is high for Stamina builds that would otherwise not be able to provide this type of group support -- Now that the skill is low enough that the average PvE player will have no excuse (other than a disdain for PvP) to not have it, the average PvEr will be expected to have it.

Or is this the overall intent? Keep the skill highly appealing and use it to draw disgruntled PvErs into the PvP map?

Any insights on this @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Draxys

I'm just curious how someone can spend a "vast majority" of their time in Cyrodiil since launch and not have a main character at ar10. What were you doing, picking flowers?

Attorneyatlawl

Ezareth wrote: »

Can't write a book as I'm typing on a tablet atm but I'm not trying to insinuate that it isn't possible to mitigate a large "percentage" of spell resist. I'm saying penetration is working perfectly as ive tested it. If you have definitive evidence to the contrary please link the data. My own data Is not in an easy to comprehend format but yes I tested various levels of character sheet resistance against isolated and slowly increasing levels of resistance. The absence of nirnhoned weapons on pts makes getting a true test of all factors impossible there. I do know that weapon tooltip values are not indicative of actual penetration given as like levels of penetration give different damage numbers. We can debate the options and merits of penetration all day, but that isn't the real point.

Four main objections to nirnhoned in a simplified format(sorry typing painful ATM):
1: Multiplicative effect further increases the already unbalanced benefits of medium and heavy armor over light....while increasing the need for magicka damage users to stick with light for the penetration.

2: Impact is felt by magical damage players only not spread evenly by impenetrable.

3: Power of the trait far exceeds the value of any other armor trait by powers greater than 2 in even the worst case scenario. It's just too powerful no matter what is possible to partially counter it.

4: Taking the PvP context out of this it trivializes magicka Damage in PvE with very little sacrifice. Bosses do not spell pierce. This means the content must be balanced to expect this kind of resistance which eliminates the choice to use it and this why have it at all?

I could probably think of some other issues with it but I think these are sufficient. It needs to be fixed sooner rather than later.

That's a fair post and I can agree with everything you said there now . I mentioned before I was thinking along the lines of 15% value, but even as "low" (quote-unquote) as 10% per piece at legendary would be a viable and strong trait choice still.

Cheers sir.

_____________________________

As an aside, I do agree with the feeling that waiting on this sort of balance change so long is probably letting it go too long, though, for the record . Some of the recently mentioned Templar fixes/changes are already being worked in for a minipatch possibly as soon as Monday in 2.0.6 or soon after for things like Focused Charge. Now, the nirnhoned effectiveness came to broader attention a lot more recently than that, but the timeline is probably a bit long if it's being planned to wait until some time in Jun.