Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

Fleshreaper · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Solution 1: Be more careful.

Solution 2: Don't be more careful, and cough up the paltry sum of gold for your bounty.

The Justice System is absolutely necessary in an Elder Scrolls game. I hate that they even have an opt out option for attacking innocents, because "opting out" should be done by not attacking innocents.

I never understand this kind of thinking. Let's FORCE people to do something they may not want to do. And your reply will be, don't play the game then. Well, look at it from the other side. They put the changes in and you don't like them. Guess what, don't play the game, then. Giving people an option is fine and it will not change you experience one bit.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

This thread isn't suggesting an improvement. It's suggesting an even further reduction in the interactivity of the world.

If you aren't used to having a Justice System in-game, then get used to it. This is the Elder Scrolls Online, and the Justice System is absolutely, 100% indispensable. There shouldn't be any checkboxes that let you opt out, but since there are, no one has any excuses.

Chelos · March 2015

There's just one thing that bothers me and that's not the justice system, it's bad cleaning up to prepare a smooth game with a new system in it.
There's this questline in Riften, I can't even remember what it's called. You're on this island and take some riddle quest, some combat quest and then there's a drinking contest with a time limit where you drink from a barrel. You have to go to a table to have a snack in between every three jugs and there's other people's stuff on the table I stole several items by accident.
That's not much of an issue, I paid the fee and was done, and gold is not an issue in the game (a very sad thing btw)
The point is: If you have single click stealable items by all means clean up the objects a player needs to interact with because of quest/game reasons.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Solution 1: Be more careful.

Solution 2: Don't be more careful, and cough up the paltry sum of gold for your bounty.

The Justice System is absolutely necessary in an Elder Scrolls game. I hate that they even have an opt out option for attacking innocents, because "opting out" should be done by not attacking innocents.

I never understand this kind of thinking. Let's FORCE people to do something they may not want to do. And your reply will be, don't play the game then. Well, look at it from the other side. They put the changes in and you don't like them. Guess what, don't play the game, then. Giving people an option is fine and it will not change you experience one bit.

It's about the game being a living, breathing world. No one is forcing you to click on the wrong items. No one is forcing you to heal criminals. No one is forcing you in to combat with that friendly NPC.

This is not a new feature in the Elder Scrolls universe, and actions should have consequences. The worst thing that could happen is you get slapped with a tiny fine and maybe have to rez.

utbackpacker911b14_ESO · March 2015

Chelos wrote: »

There's just one thing that bothers me and that's not the justice system, it's bad cleaning up to prepare a smooth game with a new system in it.
There's this questline in Riften, I can't even remember what it's called. You're on this island and take some riddle quest, some combat quest and then there's a drinking contest with a time limit where you drink from a barrel. You have to go to a table to have a snack in between every three jugs and there's other people's stuff on the table I stole several items by accident.
That's not much of an issue, I paid the fee and was done, and gold is not an issue in the game (a very sad thing btw)
The point is: If you have single click stealable items by all means clean up the objects a player needs to interact with because of quest/game reasons.

I had the same thing happen to me yesterday.It only happened once cause I learned from it the first time.Just need to pay attention,I kind of enjoy games that I need to have my eyes open to play.

It isn't in Riften,btw.It is in Geirmund's Hall on the western end of the map.

bellanca6561n · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Or concede that there is a fundamental difference between single players games and online multiplayer games.

The whole Justice System homage to a series of single player games is certainly interesting. But the part I don't get is the notion that folks who simply don't play single player games, and never will, can't opt out of yet another anti-social, non multiplayer game system.

That said, "Disaster" might be overstating it. Awkwardly implemented perhaps....

https://youtu.be/1lpHzNuiGh0

narf911 · March 2015

Maybe my game setup is different, but I have to click E to take items....don't click E 500 times and you'll have a better end result.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Or concede that there is a fundamental difference between single players games and online multiplayer games.

The whole Justice System homage to a series of single player games is certainly interesting. But the part I don't get is the notion that folks who simply don't play single player games, and never will, can't opt out of yet another anti-social, non multiplayer game system.

That said, "Disaster" might be overstating it. Awkwardly implemented perhaps....

https://youtu.be/1lpHzNuiGh0

This has nothing to do with the difference between single and multiplayer games. It has everything to do with people not wanting to suffer consequences for their actions.

And it's absolutely not going to be an anti-social system once the PvP elements get added. The current iteration of the system is basically here to make sure that the core mechanics are working correctly before the real fun starts.

Slurg · March 2015

Keron wrote: »

Goddamit, does no one read anymore?

Healing is NOT disabled by the option. Stealing stuff by rightclick without confirmation just because that damn NPC in the booth moved from under your reticle just at the moment you press "E" and there just happens to be one of those pick-up-able junk items within line of sight is NOT disabled by the option.

While the healing thing may be a point of discussion and appreciated to stop the bank-healing-springs-spam, the other one is just idiotic.

So this wonderful piece of advice:

sc_prabhu1986rwb17_ESO wrote: »

2) Go to your settings and turn the justice system off. Yes, the option is ALREADY there. No need to wonder how this got past the test server, cause it didn't.

is so completely useless and inappropriate I can't even find words for it.

Right-o. Turning off justice system only prevents you from damaging NPCs and farm animals. Does not stop you from stealing or healing. Bonus feature: if you have this setting turned off when you get caught stealing something and an NPC comes at you and starts pummeling you with his/her fists, you can't even fight back.

This was recommended in another thread for people who don't want to accidentally steal things: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info943-NoAccidentalStealing.html

As for accidentally healing criminals, for people who are worried about this, the advice given by a ZOS rep in another thread was not to cast heals in towns.

utbackpacker911b14_ESO · March 2015

narf911 wrote: »

Maybe my game setup is different, but I have to click E to take items....don't click E 500 times and you'll have a better end result.

To steal things mine was set to "R" by defualt.

Ashtaris · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Because some short sighted individuals don't like you rocking THEIR boat

Actually I love the Justice system and have a sneaky vamp NB Kahjiit that's very good at it. However, I do believe there is room for improvements and having a total opt-out for people who don't want to participate is something that I would love to see as well. Really, there is no good reason they shouldn't do it IMHO.

Fleshreaper · March 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Endurance wrote: »

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim..

Well, you know, except for Morrowind... and Skyrim... and, come to think of it, Oblivion. But other than being different, you're right, it's completely the same.

Endurance wrote: »

why would they change that in ESO?

Maybe the inability to quickload? I don't know, it's just a thought.

Endurance wrote: »

if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault

Because there is no such thing as lag. That's a myth.

Endurance wrote: »

the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

Well, you know, except for that time before 1.6 when the AI was completely cool with you stealing stuff from under their noses. So, yes, it's always been that way... since last month.

1: It is the same as in previous TES game.
- you can pickpocket and get caught - CHECK
- you can "accidently" steal an item not belonging to you - CHECK
- Except for Morrowind in Oblivion and Skyrim when indicated as red it means not yours - CHECK

2: Quickload? Never used that when caught stealing in previous TES games. It is part of your story and you just reverse time. Never understood this in RPG. It is what makes the game, bad or good choices.

3: Lag. We have lots of lag now. But I never accidenrly stole something because of it. So due to lag you press "e" grab all?

4: He ment the AI from the previous TES games. And now it's in TESO since 1.6. So yes it has always been like that in previous TES games.

Have you ever walked on the moon, well, I guess man as never been to the moon before. Because if it hasn't happened to you, then it hasn't happened....

wOOOOt_of_SD · March 2015

/sings - bum bum bum, anotherone bites the dust...

It is clearly a huge brainfart from ZOS having the option to turn npc killing and stealing off,
and having it ON as deafult. If it was Default OFF, then sooo many noobs in this game would have on less problem.

On the other hand, if it was default off, we would have noobs all over whining about it being broken LOL.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Ashtaris wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Because some short sighted individuals don't like you rocking THEIR boat Actually I love the Justice system and have a sneaky vamp NB Kahjiit that's very good at it. However, I do believe there is room for improvements and having a total opt-out for people who don't want to participate is something that I would love to see as well. Really, there is no good reason they shouldn't do it IMHO.

I'd rather hear a good reason as to why an opt-out is needed. "I don't like having to pay attention to my surroundings," is not a good reason.

Sacadon · March 2015

I really love the justice system, but as always despise how ZOS "encourages" players to participate in areas of the game they have no desire for. (trail notifications, friend alerts, Craglorn etc...)

Messy1 · March 2015

Justice System is not a disaster it is fun and part of the game. Learn to deal with it, maybe even have fun with it?

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's about the game being a living, breathing world. No one is forcing you to click on the wrong items. No one is forcing you to heal criminals. No one is forcing you in to combat with that friendly NPC.

This is not a new feature in the Elder Scrolls universe, and actions should have consequences.

Not sure if you're trolling or didn't read... the point of my complaint was not that the justice system exists, but that it is implemented in a way that actually does create situations players don't have control over. Perhaps one could argue to be more careful about who to assist, but stuff like trying to speak with a merchant but ending up stealing instead unintentionally is not ideal

especially when it's due to lag or NPC movements or even just proximity. If I intended to steal then fine, consequences make sense.

Mountain_Dewed · March 2015

Is the Justice system live now? Cool if it is!

Messy1 · March 2015

Mountain_Dewed wrote: »

Is the Justice system live now? Cool if it is!

It sure is and it's awesome!!

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's about the game being a living, breathing world. No one is forcing you to click on the wrong items. No one is forcing you to heal criminals. No one is forcing you in to combat with that friendly NPC.

This is not a new feature in the Elder Scrolls universe, and actions should have consequences.

Not sure if you're trolling or didn't read... the point of my complaint was not that the justice system exists, but that it is poorly implemented in a way that actually does create situations players don't have control over. Perhaps one could argue to be more careful about who to assist, but stuff like trying to speak with a merchant but ending up stealing instead unintentionally is just dumb especially when it's due to lag or NPC movements or even just proximity. If I intended to steal then fine, consequences make sense.

You do have control over your actions, so I'm not buying that argument at all.

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

So if you don't intend to steal, don't steal stuff. I've yet to run in to that problem on a single one of my characters.

Keron · March 2015

Messy1 wrote: »

Mountain_Dewed wrote: »

Is the Justice system live now? Cool if it is!

It sure is and it's awesome!!

Be honest. It's partially there, you still can't mete out justice as a player :sad-face:

Messy1 · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's about the game being a living, breathing world. No one is forcing you to click on the wrong items. No one is forcing you to heal criminals. No one is forcing you in to combat with that friendly NPC.

This is not a new feature in the Elder Scrolls universe, and actions should have consequences.

Not sure if you're trolling or didn't read... the point of my complaint was not that the justice system exists, but that it is poorly implemented in a way that actually does create situations players don't have control over. Perhaps one could argue to be more careful about who to assist, but stuff like trying to speak with a merchant but ending up stealing instead unintentionally is just dumb especially when it's due to lag or NPC movements or even just proximity. If I intended to steal then fine, consequences make sense.

Could you possibly rename your post something like . . . "Justice System Better player controls needed" ? I think disaster is too strong of a word here.

Majic · March 2015

A Case In Pointless

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

This thread isn't suggesting an improvement. It's suggesting an even further reduction in the interactivity of the world.

If you aren't used to having a Justice System in-game, then get used to it. This is the Elder Scrolls Online, and the Justice System is absolutely, 100% indispensable. There shouldn't be any checkboxes that let you opt out, but since there are, no one has any excuses.

Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me, and it never leads to a better game.

Your own arguments argue against you.

Titansteele · March 2015

I am not a fan of the Justice system, I can see both sides of this argument and in my own way agree with both. It boils down to a need to be careful of your actions in town as your actions can have consequences beyond your intentions which if you stand back and look at it is how you build an immersive world.

I do not agree that the system is indispensable, it is a nice to have in the eyes of some. If it was indispensable it would have been in the game before it came out of BETA. I would love to see guild & player housing announced/added and am genuinely excited by the prospect however I would never be so bold as to call that feature indispensable.

Last night I encountered a weird scenario where I was sitting idle while talking on the phone and out of nowhere I got a bounty and a guard arrested me. My hands were nowhere near a mouse or the keyboard so I didn't heal someone else, nor did I accidentally hit someone, I was not in a group at the time so there is no reason as to why I was arrested. Has anyone else ever encountered this or indeed have a possible explanation I am missing?

Ashtaris · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Because some short sighted individuals don't like you rocking THEIR boat Actually I love the Justice system and have a sneaky vamp NB Kahjiit that's very good at it. However, I do believe there is room for improvements and having a total opt-out for people who don't want to participate is something that I would love to see as well. Really, there is no good reason they shouldn't do it IMHO.

I'd rather hear a good reason as to why an opt-out is needed. "I don't like having to pay attention to my surroundings," is not a good reason.

OK, but who is it hurting by not giving people the option? You? No, because you can still play like you want to. The game? No, because there are those who will participate. It's about giving people a choice, not shoving it down their throats.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

A Case In Pointless

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

This thread isn't suggesting an improvement. It's suggesting an even further reduction in the interactivity of the world.

If you aren't used to having a Justice System in-game, then get used to it. This is the Elder Scrolls Online, and the Justice System is absolutely, 100% indispensable. There shouldn't be any checkboxes that let you opt out, but since there are, no one has any excuses.

Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me, and it never leads to a better game.

Your own arguments argue against you.

Please explain.

This is an unnecessary change (not an improvement) to a system that is actually functioning remarkably well for having been introduced to the entire world in one go. Adding more options is not always a good thing. The developers had a clear vision with the Justice System, and this first step lays an excellent foundation for the future.

KellionBane · March 2015

You can opt out of the justice system, by keeping your hands in your pockets. :P

starkerealm · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

The version of lag I've seen first hand are teleporting guards. It's not exactly the same issue. But, go to steal something while hidden, and then a guard will pop partially over and detect the theft as it's occurring. It's distinctly annoying, but I've only seen it happen twice.

At that point, it doesn't strike me as impossible that someone would teleport out as you're pressing the key, leading to an accidental theft. I haven't seen it first hand, but as Fleshreaper pointed out, I haven't walked on the moon either.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Ashtaris wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Because some short sighted individuals don't like you rocking THEIR boat Actually I love the Justice system and have a sneaky vamp NB Kahjiit that's very good at it. However, I do believe there is room for improvements and having a total opt-out for people who don't want to participate is something that I would love to see as well. Really, there is no good reason they shouldn't do it IMHO.

I'd rather hear a good reason as to why an opt-out is needed. "I don't like having to pay attention to my surroundings," is not a good reason.

OK, but who is it hurting by not giving people the option? You? No, because you can still play like you want to. The game? No, because there are those who will participate. It's about giving people a choice, not shoving it down their throats.

Games are not all about giving people choices. If they were, then everyone would have the option to do anything they wanted in every game ever made.

It hurts the interactivity of the world, and it hurts the sense of everyone playing the same game. There's zero reason to add the option, and not having it increases the chances of fun/interesting player interaction.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

Messy1 wrote: »

Could you possibly rename your post something like . . . "Justice System Better player controls needed" ? I think disaster is too strong of a word here.

Well it's a problem for folks who don't like being all super cautious about every move they make when they're used to being able to play the game like any other MMO or like you know, pre-patch

Though I do see your point, especially when a lot of folks won't read the entire thread (completely fair by now), so I did change it to be a tad more specific!