Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

Bloodfang

It's obvious we need a Prison System.

- Where you lose Skills or perhaps even Experience Penalty every time you are found guilty.
(How much you lose should be based on your bounty and crimes)

- Thieving Crimes should allow you to pay your bounty, if you can't pay -> Jail.
- Murdering Crimes shouldn't allow to pay your bounty. -> Straight to Jail you criminal scum!

Kragorn

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.

Sorry, you really can't seriously be saying that if it's in TES it must be in ESO.

On that basis there's a SWATHE of stuff far more important to many players than Justice which you've not implemented and repeatedly say you have no plans for .. Spellcrafting, Housing, Unarmed Fighting, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Simply justifying Justice's existence in the way you are is at best disingenuous .. and comparing disabling accidental stealing with being able to disable mob aggro really is scraping the barrel for a justification for not doing it.

Kragorn

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, maybe the broke people should get more gold. If they need 80 gold, they will need to sell... let's see... about 4 normal quality items or a stack of foul hides. Or they could just kill a few things. Or... wait for it... they could not steal and incur a bounty if they (inexplicably) don't have the gold to cover it.

Yeah, those newbies that just got out of the wailing prison, that'll show them for not having a job the instant they dropped from the sky into the see. Layabouts all of 'em. Let 'em rot. Right?

Can't do the time. don't do the crime?

There is no "time" it's pay or be executed without a trial.

I know I was trying a bit of light humour by quoting a line froma Rush song .. sorry it went right over your head.

Kragorn

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Oh! Also, if you have a hard time finding recipes or ingredients, then you should definitely spend more time in Delves and Dungeons -- always unowned and usually stuffed with goodies.

So crafting has become yet more 1990s group-or-die then like leveling beyond VR10.

/sigh

eventide03b14a_ESO

Kragorn wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, maybe the broke people should get more gold. If they need 80 gold, they will need to sell... let's see... about 4 normal quality items or a stack of foul hides. Or they could just kill a few things. Or... wait for it... they could not steal and incur a bounty if they (inexplicably) don't have the gold to cover it.

Yeah, those newbies that just got out of the wailing prison, that'll show them for not having a job the instant they dropped from the sky into the see. Layabouts all of 'em. Let 'em rot. Right?

Can't do the time. don't do the crime?

There is no "time" it's pay or be executed without a trial.

I know I was trying a bit of light humour by quoting a line froma Rush song .. sorry it went right over your head.

That phrase is much older than "Test for Echo", and I stand by what I said.

Kragorn

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

We have discussed having a “no theft” type of option in the UI for players who never want to steal owned items. While this option is not consistent with the Elder Scrolls

Absolutely and totally chalk and cheese comparison. TES games are off-line with SAVES! If you screw up like this you can 'Mulligan' it, you can't in an MMO.

Stop using TES as an alibi when it suits ZOS and ignoring TES when its its something else.

Kragorn

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

What would you call a person who does that?

A young male admirer?

Durnik

Please remove the lootable items at the writ turn ins at Craglorn? I accidentally stole something while turning in one of my writs and of course a guard was right there.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Kragorn wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

What would you call a person who does that?

A young male admirer?

I actually had a different word in mind.

Ysne58

I still think there should be a toggle to allow people to not accidentally pick stuff up. Frequently lag is what causes this to happen. It is a valid option and should be available for those who do not want to accidentally steal. Your analogy to toggling hostility just doesn't apply in this situation as far as I can tell. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

@ZOS_MandiParker I do not see any reason not to provide this toggle.

cozmon3c_ESO

Mandi Parker is awesome, i hope we get the pvp portion soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fleshreaper

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Oh! Also, if you have a hard time finding recipes or ingredients, then you should definitely spend more time in Delves and Dungeons -- always unowned and usually stuffed with goodies.

So crafting has become yet more 1990s group-or-die then like leveling beyond VR10.

/sigh

No, the solo delves. You know, the ones out in the world that are meant for one person to complete on their own? I have had more luck killing daedra mobs in coldharbour. Just to the east of Hollow City is a good place.

Tyr

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.

Sorry, you really can't seriously be saying that if it's in TES it must be in ESO.

On that basis there's a SWATHE of stuff far more important to many players than Justice which you've not implemented and repeatedly say you have no plans for .. Spellcrafting, Housing, Unarmed Fighting, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Simply justifying Justice's existence in the way you are is at best disingenuous .. and comparing disabling accidental stealing with being able to disable mob aggro really is scraping the barrel for a justification for not doing it.

What are you talking about. Housing was only an expansion in Skyrim, Spellcrafting was being worked on as was only recently delayed in favor of DLC zones first, and unarmed fighting is already possible to a limited extent, but will be augmented with the Spellcrafting system.
Justice is central to all TES games and opting out of it is not something you should expect to be a priority for the reasons outlined already by Mindiparker.

Wavek

There is an addon that prevents stealing unless you're hidden. This can help prevent accidentally picking up an item when you're trying to talk/interact etc.

Nebthet78

Wavek wrote: »

There is an addon that prevents stealing unless you're hidden. This can help prevent accidentally picking up an item when you're trying to talk/interact etc.

So much yes... or better yet, let us turn off stealing all together.

I accidentally stole a bottle because I had a major hand tremour while I was panning over to talk to an NPC during a quest. There was no confirmation window that came up to make sure I wanted to steal it, because it wasn't an item that was in a barrel, crate,etc, but it was a bottle on a table.

I had to wait 20 minutes for my bounty to go down.

This system sucks for people who have disabilities that cause hand tremours and other issues. Makes playing less fun.

WhimsyDragon

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Accidentally stealing a “takeable item” (an owned drink or apple on the table behind the merchant) produces a relative small bounty, and if you are intentionally avoiding criminal activity then you likely won’t suffer many consequences aside from paying a handful of gold that’s appropriate to your level.

No problem with the idea of paying fines if I intended to steal something but got caught but another matter when trying to interact with the world in a normal manner and being told I stole something I had no intention of taking.

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Sometimes even the most careful player will run into a hostile monster by accident (and sometimes they get killed by this), but we do not allow players to toggle off hostility. That would be quite odd, right?

This doesn't really seem like a comparable situation to me, since running into hostile enemies is, indeed, outside the control of the player. Choosing right or wrong when it comes to stuff like stealing should be fully within player choices. If the system chooses for us, what's the point of having it at all? I actually think THIS invalidates the system rather than the other way around.

I do appreciate your response to this and while I understand that the justice system makes sense conceptually, I only want to partake if it's fair instead of based on a series of accidents and accusations.

nerevarine1138

Ysne58 wrote: »

I still think there should be a toggle to allow people to not accidentally pick stuff up. Frequently lag is what causes this to happen. It is a valid option and should be available for those who do not want to accidentally steal. Your analogy to toggling hostility just doesn't apply in this situation as far as I can tell. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

@ZOS_MandiParker I do not see any reason not to provide this toggle.

You'd think you'd have responded to one of the many points she raised in her response instead of saying "I don't see any reason to not provide it."

eventide03b14a_ESO

Tyr wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.

Sorry, you really can't seriously be saying that if it's in TES it must be in ESO.

On that basis there's a SWATHE of stuff far more important to many players than Justice which you've not implemented and repeatedly say you have no plans for .. Spellcrafting, Housing, Unarmed Fighting, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Simply justifying Justice's existence in the way you are is at best disingenuous .. and comparing disabling accidental stealing with being able to disable mob aggro really is scraping the barrel for a justification for not doing it.

What are you talking about. Housing was only an expansion in Skyrim, Spellcrafting was being worked on as was only recently delayed in favor of DLC zones first, and unarmed fighting is already possible to a limited extent, but will be augmented with the Spellcrafting system.
Justice is central to all TES games and opting out of it is not something you should expect to be a priority for the reasons outlined already by Mindiparker.

Hearthfire was an expansion, but the vanilla game had housing. So did Oblivion. The justice system in ESO is a watered down version of the other games and needs a serious overhaul IMO.

Victus

The issue I have for not having a toggle is that, in the real world if I have no intentions ever of stealing anything, I am not going to "accidentally" do so (or, you know if you do by forgetting to pay for an item leaving the store, guards aren't going to beat you down until you pay up). I am not going to talk to a shop owner, and then suddenly find myself picking up an item and then assumed I am stealing it.

Sure there are characters I have where this system would be fun to participate in, but I feel if somebody doesn't want to at all, then a toggle is fine. If this was implemented since release, then fine, it's an aspect of the game, but as something added in after there was an outcry of not having it, I don't see why it can't be an optional venture.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

The Accidental stealing i dont mind so much.

And i cant wait for the whole sale slaughter of noobs when the pvp part goes live if they havent added the feature to stop healing criminals. Chuckleheads will be camping every quest in town that requires fighting. It will be glorious to watch. Bring a pack of health potions and hope you have a healing spell that doesnt autotarget

Bloodfang

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series.

Sorry, you really can't seriously be saying that if it's in TES it must be in ESO.

On that basis there's a SWATHE of stuff far more important to many players than Justice which you've not implemented and repeatedly say you have no plans for .. Spellcrafting, Housing, Unarmed Fighting, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Simply justifying Justice's existence in the way you are is at best disingenuous .. and comparing disabling accidental stealing with being able to disable mob aggro really is scraping the barrel for a justification for not doing it.

What are you talking about. Housing was only an expansion in Skyrim, Spellcrafting was being worked on as was only recently delayed in favor of DLC zones first, and unarmed fighting is already possible to a limited extent, but will be augmented with the Spellcrafting system.
Justice is central to all TES games and opting out of it is not something you should expect to be a priority for the reasons outlined already by Mindiparker.

Hearthfire was an expansion, but the vanilla game had housing. So did Oblivion. The justice system in ESO is a watered down version of the other games and needs a serious overhaul IMO.

Honestly both Oblivion and Skyrim had a very basic housing.
Morrowind didn't even have a proper one.
When they implement Housing in ESO, it really needs hell of an improvement.

Anyways Skyrim didn't even have Spellcrafting, which I consider far more important.
About Justice System, they could've made it a little better, but I don't see much missing from it, apart from Prison System.
There is only so much you can do in an MMO. For example: Don't ever expect players to be witnesses to "Crimes", it just can't work in an MMO.

rayeab16_ESO

actualy. morrowind did have a proper one.
admitedly it was an add on (bloodmoon) but it did have a proper housing system
(a quest to help the mine in solstheim where at the end of it you were awarded with a small swelling. it also introduced the lootbag of anoyance bug, where if youplaced too many items in your home, things suddenly got stored in the lootbag.)
and many plauers prety much used ether the home of the first bounty you got in the fighters guild (i think her name was dura gro bolg?) or the hlallu mantion with the only totaly persistant corpse)

what realy bugs me about the justice system is how its going to be abused once the pvp side is included. this is also why a lot of players do not want to let us (who want to be properly law abiding citizens as it were) opt out. because it will be fewer players to gank once the pvp aspect goes live, and they get to use all the glitches and broken mechanics they found (and likely did not report, so as to be able to use them) on the PTS.

we were told we could opt out, that there would be proper options to opt out. we can opt out of pvp in cyrodill by not going there, and we can opt out of anything else by not using it, but its hard to opt out of the justice system properly because its been made that way (ether by accident or design. if its design then just goram tell us so we can get the heck outa dodge now befor we invest any more in our characters..please guys. just fess up and tell us if you want to make it 100% damn pvp everywhere. be honest.) and while we may be just a small persentage, we just want what we were told we could have.
a proper opt out (other than not playing your game)

newtinmpls

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Accidentally stealing a “takeable item” (an owned drink or apple on the table behind the merchant) produces a relative small bounty, and if you are intentionally avoiding criminal activity then you likely won’t suffer many consequences aside from paying a handful of gold that’s appropriate to your level.

I have (so far) only had this happen with a 6-8th level character and the fee wasn't any higher than about 20gp. I would say that it is very important to either add a "write a check" (authorize a bank withdrawal) option OR have easily visible postings in all cities in the world as to just how much the bounties are so folks can be carrying that much.

I compare this to driving in Wisconsin. The enforcement of the "55 miles per hour" speed limit is so fierce, unrelenting and so very well known that even people in nearby states (I live in Minnesota) know that if you are traveling in Wisconsin by car, you best have several hundred in cash to pay any fines.

Add to that the fact that there are jerk/cops in every culture/civilization, yes, I accept the "flaws" in the justice system as evidence of it's realism (after all while magic could 'pinpoint the criminal' there could also be abuses.

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Auto-looting stolen items is also a toggle because we wanted to allow you to specifically confirm your action to steal an individual item, as auto-looting many items at once could be as financially devastating as murder. Both of these opt-outs were specifically designed only to help players avoid the harshest penalties for truly accidental actions. (The unintentional criminal healing issue is a separate thing really, and we’re considering some options for it.)

Justice as a fully integrated system like Champion, Combat, and Crafting. It is critical to future content in the game, and we want players to learn how to live with the underlying rules of the system before introducing heavier mechanics and related content. Having said that, we will still continue to monitor friction points for players and address specific areas of concern, so please continue to report things that cause frustration and we will absolutely look into these issues as we develop the system further.

I can follow this reasoning (though I would like to know more about what could/would or even might be built onto it and how that would relate).

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Oh! Also, if you have a hard time finding recipes or ingredients, then you should definitely spend more time in Delves and Dungeons -- always unowned and usually stuffed with goodies.

Pretty much all my time is spent there - lots of foodstuffs, usually a single recipe in an average of 2 hours playing time, and I've found exactly 2 motifs since 1.6. That part has not been successful for me.

On that, anyone with an "extra" copy of the recipe for Banana Surprise (my crafter doesn't have it and I haven't found it in a week of looking), please feel free to send it to me COD in game.

abuniffpreub18_ESO

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Oh! Also, if you have a hard time finding recipes or ingredients, then you should definitely spend more time in Delves and Dungeons -- always unowned and usually stuffed with goodies.

Pretty much all my time is spent there - lots of foodstuffs, usually a single recipe in an average of 2 hours playing time, and I've found exactly 2 motifs since 1.6. That part has not been successful for me.
==================================================

Same here. I found one low level recipe and no motifs. The recipe was in a bag by a tent somewhere. As far as Delves ans Dungeons it's about 98% ingredients and the rest is armor or a dagger.

Here's a thought. How about a third version of the game with no justice and no pvp except Cyrodil. They could make a few bucks that way. Call it Tamriel Limited

rayeab16_ESO

i would go back to subbing (assuming they put the time cards back on sale) if they simply chose to have 4 megaservers (2 pvp all and 2 pve all)

that would solve a lot of players problems, as you could choose to have more.
4 servers to have 8 chars on if you chose (which gives you more time you have to spend on all those chars)
more options for pvp and pve players
more choice
im sure a fair few players would also sub if they could choose to go full pve or full pvp

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Chuckleheads will be camping every quest in town that requires fighting.

And so WOW-PVP-jerks will feel right at home in ESO.

/sadface

Contraptions

I appreciate the dev response, but sometimes the inconsistency in the game world can be off-putting. Why is there no auto-looting when stealing from a container like a desk or wardrobe, but auto-looting and auto-lockpicking when stealing an apple or a lockbox? Making the looting consistent will definitely reduce frustration.

"When you are actually a criminal with an inventory full of stolen goodies and you accidentally pick up an owned apple near a guard rather than speaking with an npc, that’s when you get slammed and your goodies get taken by the guard, and you get hit with a massive bounty."

I don't understand this bit. Stealing an apple, regardless of how many stolen items you have currently, should only generate a minor bounty. And if the guard takes your items it means you chose to pay or you got killed. Both result in having no bounty, not a "massive" one.

"This is a consequence of the system, though – it is a system of high risk and high rewards. Reducing the aspect of risk during the peak moments prior to reward would invalidate much of the current system. The system is part of the world and not just when it’s convenient – that’s how it is in the Elder Scrolls series."

The above scenario of a apple near a guard is not "high risk, high reward", instead it is "high risk, no reward". If I choose to rob a bank master lockbox while the guards walk around, I know that if I succeed the rewards are significant and if I fail I most probably would lose a significant amount of gold. That's high risk, high reward and fine with me, because I consciously choose to take that risk. A player wanting to talk to a NPC and accidentally stealing something behind the NPC is not going to be happy at all because he or she didn't expect it to happen. Call it luck or lag, no one wants to pay for something that he or she didn't intend to do, no matter how small the penalty. Worse still if it leads to a player losing all of their carefully stolen goods.

Bottom line- make lockpicking and stealing from non-containered items a toggle as well, or add an extra layer of confirmation preventing these accidental misclicks from happening. It makes the game world much more consistent.

redwoodtreesprite2

So basically tough luck, this is the way the game is.

Sigh....

Majic

There Ain't No Justice

ZOS_MandiParker wrote: »

Accidentally stealing a “takeable item” (an owned drink or apple on the table behind the merchant) produces a relative small bounty, and if you are intentionally avoiding criminal activity then you likely won’t suffer many consequences aside from paying a handful of gold that’s appropriate to your level. For an accidental and uncommon pick-up, it is a minor fine and you’re back to your life as an upstanding citizen. This is relatively uncommon, and so it would be a low risk and no reward mode of gameplay for these players.

I really love the justice system and appreciate your weighing in, but I'm very disappointed to see accidental pick-ups touted this way, because you're basically telling us an intentional feature of ESO is burdening players with a "gotcha" interface.

Why shouldn't it be the same for "accidental murder" that you can't toggle off? Why not put a character delete button right next to the attack button by default? Where does it reasonably stop?

Thankfully, as with so many things, an addon is already being developed, but please consider not forcing us to install an addon simply to avoid being on edge and risking a fine every time we want to talk to a merchant standing in a crowd of players and end up accidentally pilfering a bottle behind them when they or the third-person view shifts.

Setting the game up to do things we don't want it to do is a poor way to design an interface, and I am absolutely sick of some players insulting us in the forums for saying so.

It's not a moral choice, it's a design choice, and the design needs improvement.

Please reconsider this.

drschplatt

The justice system is mostly just a pain in the butt at this point. I'm sure there are some people who enjoy it, but it's just made major towns even more annoying with the constant guard fighting and stupid comments from NPCs. Once we have the option of actually participating in the justice system, it might become slightly entertaining but until then, I'll just try and stay away from major hubs.