Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

seanvwolf

The ultimate control over the justice system is to be more careful. There's no difference with relation to lag whether you accidentally steal an item or have lag during combat situations - there are in game consequences for unintended actions. It's a game state that we just have to deal with. I can understand the OP's argument over having more toggle options with regards to flagged items, but I think there are more important things to deal with... like how servers handle user client lag in general.

starkerealm

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, maybe the broke people should get more gold. If they need 80 gold, they will need to sell... let's see... about 4 normal quality items or a stack of foul hides. Or they could just kill a few things. Or... wait for it... they could not steal and incur a bounty if they (inexplicably) don't have the gold to cover it.

Yeah, those newbies that just got out of the wailing prison, that'll show them for not having a job the instant they dropped from the sky into the see. Layabouts all of 'em. Let 'em rot. Right?

seanvwolf

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, maybe the broke people should get more gold. If they need 80 gold, they will need to sell... let's see... about 4 normal quality items or a stack of foul hides. Or they could just kill a few things. Or... wait for it... they could not steal and incur a bounty if they (inexplicably) don't have the gold to cover it.

Yeah, those newbies that just got out of the wailing prison, that'll show them for not having a job the instant they dropped from the sky into the see. Layabouts all of 'em. Let 'em rot. Right?

If you got through Wailing Prison without looting anything worth of value to sell, I feel sorry for you.

starkerealm

seanvwolf wrote: »

The ultimate control over the justice system is to be more careful. There's no difference with relation to lag whether you accidentally steal an item or have lag during combat situations - there are in game consequences for unintended actions. It's a game state that we just have to deal with. I can understand the OP's argument over having more toggle options with regards to flagged items, but I think there are more important things to deal with... like how servers handle user client lag in general.

At a certain level, I agree. At another, judging by the fact that some of this can be handled through the API, this is probably a semi-trivial change. And, it has a major potential to run people off the game. I've actually seen new players that ended up in a permanent state of being hunted and murdered by the guards with no way to pay off their bounty, or even any way to make money so they can pay off their bounty. And, I suspect anyone who's hung out in one of the starter zones since Unlimited hit has seen the same a few times.

They don't understand the systems, and can't escape. In the process they often make their bounty higher by trying to fight back.

And, then they leave.

starkerealm

seanvwolf wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, maybe the broke people should get more gold. If they need 80 gold, they will need to sell... let's see... about 4 normal quality items or a stack of foul hides. Or they could just kill a few things. Or... wait for it... they could not steal and incur a bounty if they (inexplicably) don't have the gold to cover it.

Yeah, those newbies that just got out of the wailing prison, that'll show them for not having a job the instant they dropped from the sky into the see. Layabouts all of 'em. Let 'em rot. Right?

If you got through Wailing Prison without looting anything worth of value to sell, I feel sorry for you.

I think the first time I ran it during beta I came out with almost nothing. My best haul was a couple blue motif books back when that was possible... and I've clogged my inventory a few times going through it. But, I'm also sitting on over 100k in the bank right now, so... being a newbie isn't my problem. But, that also doesn't mean that no one suffers that horrific affliction.

Lord_Kreegan

My one gripe with the justice system is simple.

There are a LOT of quests where the player must effectively fight alongside NPCs that are fighting mobs. More than once when I have attacked a mob fighting one of those NPCs that NPC has turned hostile. I've then been forced to kill both the mob and the NPC and ended up with the "Murderer Achievement".

Why?

It appears as if skills that use AoE or that do multi-targeting (like in the Templar's Dawns Wrath skill line) apparently will also sometimes hit the NPCs that are on your side... and then the player will be attacked by that NPC.

In other words, whether intentional or not, we now have "friendly targeting". NPCs that you are escorting or that are associated with you directly by the quest are not affected by your AoE or multi-targeting skills, but the other NPCs in the areas of the fights are.

The behavior is inconsistent. If AoE and multi-targeting are now going to be a liability in fights, then it needs to be consistent across the board. Right now there is no way to know whether or not non-hostile NPCs are going to be vulnerable.

NOTE: I'm not talking about "yellow" neutral NPCs that are indeed targetable. I'm talking about actual friendly NPCs.

starkerealm

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

NOTE: I'm not talking about "yellow" neutral NPCs that are indeed targetable. I'm talking about actual friendly NPCs.

Yeah, my girlfriend accidentally murdered a member of the Dominion military in Greenshade yesterday. Then accidentally attacked another. Apparently Maomer and Khajiit look alike?

lichmeister

i really like the justice system buts it can be annoying to get outed as a thief when you mistarget a beet instead of the lorebook you wanted. if you truly are a good and law abiding citizen then the tiny bounty and removal of said beet is not to high a cost (assuming you cant just bugger off and avoid and guards for the handful of minutes it takes for that bounty to wane).
my 1st day i was RPing my templar hero (who would never!) and in the 1st 30 minutes i accidentally killed a friendly soldier while laying some smackdown on some cultists that were assaulting him. i felt so bad that i immediately turned around and marched straight back to the fort where i explained to the guard what happened and gladly paid the (paltry) 300g, considering small recompense for the poor mans family!
part of me was really annoyed by the friendly-fire incident but overall it added a sense of realism to the justice mechanics that is quite refreshing.
what i am dying to see is some sort of Bounty system for less criminally inclined players amongst us where they can earn a % of the bounty by subduing wanted players throughout tamriel with maybe bonus rewards based on illicit goods confiscated. It would be a logistical nightmare to implement, i imagine, but damn would that spice up the game!

Nestor

I noticed they moved the Lockbox in Craglorn that was getting activated every time you tried to activate the alchemy station there. So, bug report the items that are too easy to steal when just trying to interact with an NPC and they might make an adjustment. That was gone in just a couple of days even.

bellanca6561n

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

Whether or not lag is definitely the reason is kind of moot point if intent does not exist.

It's not a moot point.

If you don't intend to steal something, then you have no one but yourself to blame when you click on something and steal it. And just as in prior games, if you "accidentally" steal something in plain view of the guards, you will have to face the consequences.

You're just arguing to argue because the game is down. You don't respond to reason; you simply advance a dogma for your amusement.

What do they call that...oh yeah....

https://youtu.be/3VGKdmSxZZU

starkerealm

Nestor wrote: »

I noticed they moved the Lockbox in Craglorn that was getting activated every time you tried to activate the alchemy station there. So, bug report the items that are too easy to steal when just trying to interact with an NPC and they might make an adjustment. That was gone in just a couple of days even.

The worst part though? I actually like the game's mise en scène. Which gets us back to the; can we please just have a safety to prevent interacting with owned objects?

starkerealm

bellanca6561n wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

Whether or not lag is definitely the reason is kind of moot point if intent does not exist.

It's not a moot point.

If you don't intend to steal something, then you have no one but yourself to blame when you click on something and steal it. And just as in prior games, if you "accidentally" steal something in plain view of the guards, you will have to face the consequences.

You're just arguing to argue because the game is down. You don't respond to reason; you simply advance a dogma for your amusement.

What do they call that...oh yeah....

https://youtu.be/3VGKdmSxZZU

Nerevarine's your sister?

Greevir

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

My one gripe with the justice system is simple.

There are a LOT of quests where the player must effectively fight alongside NPCs that are fighting mobs. More than once when I have attacked a mob fighting one of those NPCs that NPC has turned hostile. I've then been forced to kill both the mob and the NPC and ended up with the "Murderer Achievement".

Why?

It appears as if skills that use AoE or that do multi-targeting (like in the Templar's Dawns Wrath skill line) apparently will also sometimes hit the NPCs that are on your side... and then the player will be attacked by that NPC.

In other words, whether intentional or not, we now have "friendly targeting". NPCs that you are escorting or that are associated with you directly by the quest are not affected by your AoE or multi-targeting skills, but the other NPCs in the areas of the fights are.

The behavior is inconsistent. If AoE and multi-targeting are now going to be a liability in fights, then it needs to be consistent across the board. Right now there is no way to know whether or not non-hostile NPCs are going to be vulnerable.

NOTE: I'm not talking about "yellow" neutral NPCs that are indeed targetable. I'm talking about actual friendly NPCs.

This would be a bug. In no way are you supposed to be able to attack "green" NPCs. Unless you have an addon that is for some reason changing the color of said NPC to where the yellow NPC is showing green.

starkerealm

Greevir wrote: »

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

My one gripe with the justice system is simple.

There are a LOT of quests where the player must effectively fight alongside NPCs that are fighting mobs. More than once when I have attacked a mob fighting one of those NPCs that NPC has turned hostile. I've then been forced to kill both the mob and the NPC and ended up with the "Murderer Achievement".

Why?

It appears as if skills that use AoE or that do multi-targeting (like in the Templar's Dawns Wrath skill line) apparently will also sometimes hit the NPCs that are on your side... and then the player will be attacked by that NPC.

In other words, whether intentional or not, we now have "friendly targeting". NPCs that you are escorting or that are associated with you directly by the quest are not affected by your AoE or multi-targeting skills, but the other NPCs in the areas of the fights are.

The behavior is inconsistent. If AoE and multi-targeting are now going to be a liability in fights, then it needs to be consistent across the board. Right now there is no way to know whether or not non-hostile NPCs are going to be vulnerable.

NOTE: I'm not talking about "yellow" neutral NPCs that are indeed targetable. I'm talking about actual friendly NPCs.

This would be a bug. In no way are you supposed to be able to attack "green" NPCs. Unless you have an addon that is for some reason changing the color of said NPC to where the yellow NPC is showing green.

It's not a bug. It is probably an oversight, however.

Right now, when you enter a quest where members of your alliance are engaged in combat with enemies, if your "innocents" safety is off, your AoE attacks can hit, injure, and aggro your allies. The exception are cases where you're fighting alongside a quest giver. There are a couple examples off the top of my head, including the assault on Bal Foyen at the beginning of the pact line, Firsthold, (I think) Camlorn, and... well, a lot of cases where this happens in the game.

There's an easy fix to simply turn on the "do not harm innocents" safety, and everything will run as intended. However, when that's turned off it is entirely possible to accidentally assault and murder allies with aoe abilities.

Fleshreaper

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As for lag: it doesn't do what you think it does. If I interact with an NPC in front of me, and the NPC moves before the interaction happens, the dialogue window either opens late or doesn't open at all (if they moved out of range). But that interaction does not apply to some object behind the NPC that I never highlighted. That's simply not how server lag works.

The version of lag I've seen first hand are teleporting guards. It's not exactly the same issue. But, go to steal something while hidden, and then a guard will pop partially over and detect the theft as it's occurring. It's distinctly annoying, but I've only seen it happen twice.

At that point, it doesn't strike me as impossible that someone would teleport out as you're pressing the key, leading to an accidental theft. I haven't seen it first hand, but as Fleshreaper pointed out, I haven't walked on the moon either.

I don't need to see it firsthand, because it simply isn't how lag works. The server takes your input with regards to what you have highlighted at the moment you press a key. Server lag only delays that response. It can't actually make you interact with something you never consciously highlighted. It's just not possible.

Now, the situation you described (guard lagging and appearing right next to you in a position to detect a theft) is a possibility with lag. But it's a totally different situation, and it still doesn't indicate a need for some kind of opt-out feature.

So, if the "server delays the response of the NPC moving and you click

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

Whether or not lag is definitely the reason is kind of moot point if intent does not exist.

It's not a moot point.

If you don't intend to steal something, then you have no one but yourself to blame when you click on something and steal it. And just as in prior games, if you "accidentally" steal something in plain view of the guards, you will have to face the consequences.

Well, in "prior games" it was single player and you could reload a saved game. So, you are correct moot point. Online=/=Single player

Lag works both ways. Lag is a delay in information getting to the client OR to the server. If you run up to a NPC and highlight them, the server sends you the NPCs location. Now, if you have lag, that information is going to be delayed. So, the NPC very well could have moved by the time you get the information. The client and server will correct the client being behind the server, time wise. The game just wouldn't work if it didn't correct its self at some point. So, when it does, there is a "jump" on the client end. And you can certainly be trying to interact with a NPC and click when they are not there.

starkerealm

Fleshreaper wrote: »

So, if the "server delays the response of the NPC moving and you click

The other way 'round. Though, yes, you can potentially interact with an NPC that's no longer standing where they were when you tried interacting. It's a different issue and not one I'd expect people to be up in arms about.

maryriv

Ashigaru wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

Using those settings has prevented me from doing anything accidentally.

beautycutie87

Overall, I think many of the discussions in this thread could be enhanced with proper bug reporting etc. It seems like there are a specific few areas where if you are a player whom doesn't want to be involved in the justice system then errors can easily occur. I would definitely want to report certain items in cooking areas and the area in Geirmund Hall where it seems the justice system may take effect in error in both the dueling and chugging areas. I agree that the new players have come in to some problems with the justice system this may need to be looked at in the starting areas, because many are finding that they will never have enough finances with their first area to cover the bounty acquired in error, but this does teach some game mechanics, and does reward them with a few achievements as well. I enjoy the justice system thoroughly but just like in the other games its trial and error until you find out how the system works. I remember in Skyrim killing one of the Chickens in Riverwood and having the whole town after me, I think this adds to the excitement of the ES games though

starkerealm

Fleshreaper wrote: »

So, when it does, there is a "jump" on the client end. And you can certainly be trying to interact with a NPC and click when they are not there.

What Nererarine's been trying to explain is... that's not quite how it works.

So far as lag goes, if you try to interact with an NPC, the game doesn't track where your cursor is, it tracks what you tried to interact with. So, if you try to interact with the NPC, and they've walked across the hall on the server, but you don't see that you could end up talking to them through the wall. I've seen stuff like this happen.

What you're describing is when the client updates a couple frames before you interact. At that point your client is telling the server, "I want to take this item," even though that's not what you intended. It's a little more situational, but if you're telling me it's happened to you, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

My one gripe with the justice system is simple.

There are a LOT of quests where the player must effectively fight alongside NPCs that are fighting mobs. More than once when I have attacked a mob fighting one of those NPCs that NPC has turned hostile. I've then been forced to kill both the mob and the NPC and ended up with the "Murderer Achievement".

Why?

It appears as if skills that use AoE or that do multi-targeting (like in the Templar's Dawns Wrath skill line) apparently will also sometimes hit the NPCs that are on your side... and then the player will be attacked by that NPC.

In other words, whether intentional or not, we now have "friendly targeting". NPCs that you are escorting or that are associated with you directly by the quest are not affected by your AoE or multi-targeting skills, but the other NPCs in the areas of the fights are.

The behavior is inconsistent. If AoE and multi-targeting are now going to be a liability in fights, then it needs to be consistent across the board. Right now there is no way to know whether or not non-hostile NPCs are going to be vulnerable.

NOTE: I'm not talking about "yellow" neutral NPCs that are indeed targetable. I'm talking about actual friendly NPCs.

This is a great point. I often have this problem when I'm trying to do quests. All it takes is for a non hostile to get in front of the reticle as you press the button for mages wrath and you have you a bounty. No it's not a large bounty, but the amount isn't really the issue here. It's just not very well hashed out system. It needs more work and I'm just not satisfied with it the way it is.

eventide03b14a_ESO

bellanca6561n wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

Whether or not lag is definitely the reason is kind of moot point if intent does not exist.

It's not a moot point.

If you don't intend to steal something, then you have no one but yourself to blame when you click on something and steal it. And just as in prior games, if you "accidentally" steal something in plain view of the guards, you will have to face the consequences.

You're just arguing to argue because the game is down. You don't respond to reason; you simply advance a dogma for your amusement.

What do they call that...oh yeah....

https://youtu.be/3VGKdmSxZZU

I wish I could give you an awesome and an insightful.

LadyDestiny

Happened to me as well, but I just lol'd at the npc for getting mad and saying he was going to report me for taking his melon

Mix

Quite the argument going on here!

I personally love the justice system and have a blast stealing things, but I do understand that if you accidentally "e" on an object next to the vendor you are trying to talk to and steal it that it sucks because it wasn't your intent. I think they should add an option right next to the "prevent harming innocents" that doesn't allow you to interact with "owned" objects laying around the world. If it says "steal" you cannot activate it. That would allow people who don't want to steal to just remove the option to.

The prevent attacking innocents is actually a very good option. Since many of us have a habit (or did) of randomly swinging weapons/casting spells wherever...I have mine turned off and was waiting outside DSA just jumping around swinging my swords when this smuck walked right into me. Honestly, if you walk INTO a weapon swinging player you deserve to be murdered!

starkerealm

Mix wrote: »

Honestly, if you walk INTO a weapon swinging player you deserve to be murdered!

Reckless disregard, or suicide by adventurer?

Annra

It's quite simple. ZoS should give us the option to opt-out from the justice system completely. I hate it at all.
For example: Being the hero of Daggerfall, celebrated by the people, and a murder at the same time is absurd. In no way I want to participate in a system which raises such ethical concerns, even it is only a game. And lastly I do not want to see all the dead corpses laying around in town.

Sorry for bad English.

starkerealm

Annra wrote: »

It's quite simple. ZoS should give us the option to opt-out from the justice system completely. I hate it at all.
For example: Being the hero of Daggerfall, celebrated by the people, and a murder at the same time is absurd. In no way I want to participate in a system which raises such ethical concerns, even it is only a game. And lastly I do not want to see all the dead corpses laying around in town.

Sorry for bad English.

Yeah, people standing over their own corpses is just weird.

WhimsyDragon

starkerealm wrote: »

Yeah, people standing over their own corpses is just weird.

Randomly finding this even if you're not responsible is part of traditional TES lore, I'm sure!

MissBizz

I find it quite surprising and interesting that you're mentioning stealing... which you have to turn the option ON to auto loot stolen items.

I have always had auto loot on. I also noticed stolen items NEVER auto looted. I then saw there was an option to turn it in.. but the default is off.

WhimsyDragon

MissBizz wrote: »

I have always had auto loot on. I also noticed stolen items NEVER auto looted. I then saw there was an option to turn it in.. but the default is off.

Many players have auto loot on so they don't have to press extra buttons to loot corpses throughout the game... that's an option that's been in since the start of the game and in every MMO I can think of. Is it seriously connected to stealing as well? There's a huge oversight

Kragorn

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, maybe the broke people should get more gold. If they need 80 gold, they will need to sell... let's see... about 4 normal quality items or a stack of foul hides. Or they could just kill a few things. Or... wait for it... they could not steal and incur a bounty if they (inexplicably) don't have the gold to cover it.

Yeah, those newbies that just got out of the wailing prison, that'll show them for not having a job the instant they dropped from the sky into the see. Layabouts all of 'em. Let 'em rot. Right?

Can't do the time. don't do the crime?