About Shield Stacking

Vis

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

When you factor in that to get those shields to a level where they function as a reliable defense mechanism you are simply twoshotted without them - yeah, I would call that a tradeoff.

But you aren't without them. That's the point.

A tradeoff is a compromise. Give up damage, gain survivability.
Gaining survivability and damage is no compromise, it's just a straight-up boost.

Now, if shields only protected against magic damage, and you would sacrifice defense against physical attacks (armor) to make your defense against magical attacks (shield) better, that would be a tradeoff. But simply exchanging one form of defense for another one that is superior in all aspects? Nope.

Take it from someone that plays 3 of the 4 classes at end game. I have both fought and fought as a sorc in pts. They are very killable solo.

DPS is damage per second. If you are spamming shields, you are losing precious time that should be used to raise your damage per second or throw out that winning cc. Tradeoff.

Shield stacking requires at least two slots on your ability bar. Spaces that otherwise could be used for damage skills, cc, and utility. Tradeoff.

Making your shields effective means you are running with hp low enough to be one shotted. Tradeoff.

You want shields? Then say goodbye to the new highest dps lines in game (stamina builds). Tradeoff.

Precious champ points must be invested in the increase of shield effectiveness and you forgo those dps bonuses. Tradeoff.

You have to play a sorc. A class whose bread and butter skill (frag) is the easiest to throw back in your own face and shut you down via reflects and absorbs. Tradeoff.

There are tradeoffs all over the place. You have not even considered how useless shield stacking will be in open world once you leave the warm bosom of 1v1s. Besides, no one is arguing with you crits and procs should work on shields. Once so, shield stacking won't be as effective and will have even higher costs.

DDuke

Vis wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

When you factor in that to get those shields to a level where they function as a reliable defense mechanism you are simply twoshotted without them - yeah, I would call that a tradeoff.

But you aren't without them. That's the point.

A tradeoff is a compromise. Give up damage, gain survivability.
Gaining survivability and damage is no compromise, it's just a straight-up boost.

Now, if shields only protected against magic damage, and you would sacrifice defense against physical attacks (armor) to make your defense against magical attacks (shield) better, that would be a tradeoff. But simply exchanging one form of defense for another one that is superior in all aspects? Nope.

Take it from someone that plays 3 of the 4 classes at end game. I have both fought and fought as a sorc in pts. They are very killable solo.

DPS is damage per second. If you are spamming shields, you are losing precious time that should be used to raise your damage per second or throw out that winning cc. Tradeoff.

Damage Shields absorb 2-3 offensive skills, giving you 2-3 seconds to deal damage while not taking damage. Not a tradeoff.

Vis wrote: »

Shield stacking requires at least two slots on your ability bar. Spaces that otherwise could be used for damage skills, cc, and utility. Tradeoff.

In a no cooldowns game, you need only one or two skills to effectively deal damage. There are slots for 10 (12 with Ultimates) skills. Not a tradeoff.

Vis wrote: »

Making your shields effective means you are running with hp low enough to be one shotted. Tradeoff.

You never get one shotted while you have a shield up. In fact, with a shield up (maintainable 24/7), you take less burst damage than someone in full heavy armour, since you can't be critted on. Not a tradeoff.

Vis wrote: »

You want shields? Then say goodbye to the new highest dps lines in game (stamina builds). Tradeoff. .

Magicka builds can deal equal DPS (DKs for instance), and pretty much universally have access to bigger burst damage (Entropy->Meteor for instance) than stamina builds. Not a tradeoff.

Vis wrote: »

Precious champ points must be invested in the increase of shield effectiveness and you forgo those dps bonuses. Tradeoff.

If you play enough, you can get all the shield bonus passives and damage passives. Not a tradeoff.

Vis wrote: »

You have to play a sorc. A class whose bread and butter skill (frag) is the easiest to throw back in your own face and shut you down via reflects and absorbs. Tradeoff.

Or you can pick Templar & spam Blazing Shield to the same effect, or you can pick up Igneous Shield as a DK, or pick resto staff & spam Healing Ward, or Harness Magicka against magicka users, or Bone Shield & shut down stamina users. Not a tradeoff.

Vis wrote: »

There are tradeoffs all over the place. You have not even considered how useless shield stacking will be in open world once you leave the warm bosom of 1v1s. Besides, no one is arguing with you crits and procs should work on shields. Once so, shield stacking won't be as effective and will have even higher costs.

And how would a player not spamming shields fare in 1vX or larger group fights? Oh right, he's dead in 3 seconds.

Ezareth

Sharee wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Having strong shields is the defensive tradeoff for not having any actual physical defenses

Under a tradeoff, i usually understand giving up something you need to get something else you also need. Like, you need damage, and you need survivability, and if you gain one at the cost of the other, that's a tradeoff.

But getting a shield that makes all physical defense a non-factor, while giving up just those physical defenses(that are a non-factor for you anyway, and you thus don't need anymore) is no tradeoff.

Are you suggesting that we should instead focus on building up our Light Armor defenses? Have you even done any testing to determine just how pathetic such things are? Even with lightning form and Daedric armor our defenses are far worse than someone in full heavy armor with none of the other benefits. For anyone with a modicum of intelligence attempting to make this work is laughable. ZoS has design this system for us focus on an alternate method of defense. One of avoidance and absorption.

The primary weakness of shields is that they receive no benefit from Armor or Spell resistance. This is why pure glass cannon stamina builds are effortlessly ripping through them right now despite their strength or size.

There is nothing that says you can't have the ability to defend and attack at the same time and be strong in both areas. I think you're also forgetting the simple fact that Harness magicka is almost completely a counter to a magicka user's offense. By the very strength of the shields we rely on we are also made less effective offensively. That is the tradeoff. Every player has access to Harness Magicka and can counter all of our damage.

People just aren't considering the math behind all of this. Shield growth is linear. Damage growth is linear. Both of these grow at a small fraction for every point dumped into magicka, especially damage. As a min/max player every point we dump into magicka reduces the points we have in health and stamina and in PvP running out of eitherstat is death. That is the tradeoff. I'm not trying to say that there are no benefits to creating a min/max magicka shield build, I'm only saying that the build has weaknesses and isn't as powerful as some people here are trying to insinuate.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

Damage Shields absorb 2-3 offensive skills, giving you 2-3 seconds to deal damage while not taking damage. Not a tradeoff.

In a no cooldowns game, you need only one or two skills to effectively deal damage. There are slots for 10 (12 with Ultimates) skills. Not a tradeoff.

You never get one shotted while you have a shield up. In fact, with a shield up (maintainable 24/7), you take less burst damage than someone in full heavy armour, since you can't be critted on. Not a tradeoff.

Magicka builds can deal equal DPS (DKs for instance), and pretty much universally have access to bigger burst damage (Entropy->Meteor for instance) than stamina builds. Not a tradeoff.

If you play enough, you can get all the shield bonus passives and damage passives. Not a tradeoff.

Or you can pick Templar & spam Blazing Shield to the same effect, or you can pick up Igneous Shield as a DK, or pick resto staff & spam Healing Ward, or Harness Magicka against magicka users, or Bone Shield & shut down stamina users. Not a tradeoff.

And how would a player not spamming shields fare in 1vX or larger group fights? Oh right, he's dead in 3 seconds.

This is all just dross.

Spending 2-3 skills on defensive abilities is a tradeoff(Not even counting the fact as a sorc you not only have to stack shields you have to use bolt escape to put distance between you and a stamina opponent).

Dodge Roll and Block (The Heavy and Medium Armor alternativeS) require zero skill slots.

Magicka builds require their damage champion points to be split between two seperate abilities while stamina builds can focus on upgrading a single champion ability.

In a 1vX a Medium armor use can dodge roll and a Heavy armor can block and mitigate and survive far longer than a magicka user can spam shields. Avoidance and mitigation are far superior alternatives to absorption.

kkampaseb17_ESO

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Dodge Roll and Block (The Heavy and Medium Armor alternativeS) require zero skill slots.

Magicka builds require their damage champion points to be split between two seperate abilities while stamina builds can focus on upgrading a single champion ability.

In a 1vX a Medium armor use can dodge roll and a Heavy armor can block and mitigate and survive far longer than a magicka user can spam shields. Avoidance and mitigation are far superior alternatives to absorption.

Don't compare dodge roll with shields. One has retroactive value, one doesn't. And it isn't like you are doing damage while dodging...while you can put your shield on even if it stays for let's say 3s and do a cycle of damage before having to reapply it.

1 vs X was never a valid argument...ever.

Snit

Don't worry, DDuke. The new patch notes should be up soon. Based on ZOS's history of nerfing things based on the forum complaints of PvP-only players, I'd say the odds are excellent that sorcs will soon return to their familiar spot as negate-monkeys at the back of the pecking order.

(Negate got nerfed, too, though).

kkampaseb17_ESO

Snit wrote: »

Don't worry, DDuke. The new patch notes should be up soon. Based on ZOS's history of nerfing things based on the forum complaints of PvP-only players, I'd say the odds are excellent that sorcs will soon return to their familiar spot as negate-monkeys at the back of the pecking order.

(Negate got nerfed, too, though).

If you are careful and watch what MOST people say is that mainly they want item/skill procs and DoTs to apply against shields. Maybe crits as well. That is the main thing. After that we can talk about adjustments IF they are required.

Derra

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Damage Shields absorb 2-3 offensive skills, giving you 2-3 seconds to deal damage while not taking damage. Not a tradeoff.

In a no cooldowns game, you need only one or two skills to effectively deal damage. There are slots for 10 (12 with Ultimates) skills. Not a tradeoff.

You never get one shotted while you have a shield up. In fact, with a shield up (maintainable 24/7), you take less burst damage than someone in full heavy armour, since you can't be critted on. Not a tradeoff.

Magicka builds can deal equal DPS (DKs for instance), and pretty much universally have access to bigger burst damage (Entropy->Meteor for instance) than stamina builds. Not a tradeoff.

If you play enough, you can get all the shield bonus passives and damage passives. Not a tradeoff.

Or you can pick Templar & spam Blazing Shield to the same effect, or you can pick up Igneous Shield as a DK, or pick resto staff & spam Healing Ward, or Harness Magicka against magicka users, or Bone Shield & shut down stamina users. Not a tradeoff.

And how would a player not spamming shields fare in 1vX or larger group fights? Oh right, he's dead in 3 seconds.

This is all just dross.

Spending 2-3 skills on defensive abilities is a tradeoff(Not even counting the fact as a sorc you not only have to stack shields you have to use bolt escape to put distance between you and a stamina opponent).

Dodge Roll and Block (The Heavy and Medium Armor alternativeS) require zero skill slots.

Magicka builds require their damage champion points to be split between two seperate abilities while stamina builds can focus on upgrading a single champion ability.

In a 1vX a Medium armor use can dodge roll and a Heavy armor can block and mitigate and survive far longer than a magicka user can spam shields. Avoidance and mitigation are far superior alternatives to absorption.

They should nerf bolt escape too. F***ing shields everywhere and teleport and mines too. Also Crystal Fragments should no longer stun when procced. Also the sorc finisher is still not blockable - fix plz. Overload does too much dmg. Pets are too strong - you should not be able to release and resummon while they are ccd.
Also negate is still too strong. It should not silence but only provide the buffs.

Derra

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Don't worry, DDuke. The new patch notes should be up soon. Based on ZOS's history of nerfing things based on the forum complaints of PvP-only players, I'd say the odds are excellent that sorcs will soon return to their familiar spot as negate-monkeys at the back of the pecking order.

(Negate got nerfed, too, though).

If you are careful and watch what MOST people say is that mainly they want item/skill procs and DoTs to apply against shields. Maybe crits as well. That is the main thing. After that we can talk about adjustments IF they are required.

And this is perfectly reasonable. I don´t think you will find people arguing against that.

RoamingRiverElk

Who can blame shield stacking, when time-to-kill in 1.6 is so fast... I play a sword and board DK and I can survive a Lot in 1.5. In 1.6 I too have to be very careful in order to stay alive, and that does include using igneous shield more than would be necessary in 1.5. People just aren't able to have enough health, compared with how much incoming damage you easily get very, very fast.

Vis

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Don't worry, DDuke. The new patch notes should be up soon. Based on ZOS's history of nerfing things based on the forum complaints of PvP-only players, I'd say the odds are excellent that sorcs will soon return to their familiar spot as negate-monkeys at the back of the pecking order.

(Negate got nerfed, too, though).

If you are careful and watch what MOST people say is that mainly they want item/skill procs and DoTs to apply against shields. Maybe crits as well. That is the main thing. After that we can talk about adjustments IF they are required.

I agree with procs and crits applying. It's the "if" after that which has me concerned. By sad experience, some people will never stop crying nerf until their class have no other challengers.

Maulkin

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

Who can blame shield stacking, when time-to-kill in 1.6 is so fast... I play a sword and board DK and I can survive a Lot in 1.5. In 1.6 I too have to be very careful in order to stay alive, and that does include using igneous shield more than would be necessary in 1.5. People just aren't able to have enough health, compared with how much incoming damage you easily get very, very fast.

TTK is fast against glass cannon builds. Which is what everyone runs in duels atm and thus it distorts your view. Try to take down a 7/7 Heavy DK with CP allocated to damage mitigation and block cost reduction and then come tell me how you got on.

Every time I switch from PTS to Live, I end up thinking I can't wait for 1.6. All I see in 1.5 is light armor S&B Vampires that mitigate 80% of the damage, deal huge damage and, despite being magicka builds, never run out of stamina no matter how many people pound on them. That unbalanced crap got boring 5 months ago.

In 1.6 if you wanna tank, you go heavy and you tank, but you can't deal high damage. If you go class cannon you deal a lot of damage but as soon as you get focused by 2-3 players or gtfo or you die.

DDuke

Vis wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Don't worry, DDuke. The new patch notes should be up soon. Based on ZOS's history of nerfing things based on the forum complaints of PvP-only players, I'd say the odds are excellent that sorcs will soon return to their familiar spot as negate-monkeys at the back of the pecking order.

(Negate got nerfed, too, though).

If you are careful and watch what MOST people say is that mainly they want item/skill procs and DoTs to apply against shields. Maybe crits as well. That is the main thing. After that we can talk about adjustments IF they are required.

I agree with procs and crits applying. It's the "if" after that which has me concerned. By sad experience, some people will never stop crying nerf until their class have no other challengers.

Except this isn't about any particular class, it's about game mechanic available to everyone that has been broken for a looong time now, and only became more broken in 1.6.

Ezareth

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Dodge Roll and Block (The Heavy and Medium Armor alternativeS) require zero skill slots.

Magicka builds require their damage champion points to be split between two seperate abilities while stamina builds can focus on upgrading a single champion ability.

In a 1vX a Medium armor use can dodge roll and a Heavy armor can block and mitigate and survive far longer than a magicka user can spam shields. Avoidance and mitigation are far superior alternatives to absorption.

Don't compare dodge roll with shields. One has retroactive value, one doesn't. And it isn't like you are doing damage while dodging...while you can put your shield on even if it stays for let's say 3s and do a cycle of damage before having to reapply it.

1 vs X was never a valid argument...ever.

Why? They are both defensive abilities and very difference.

You actually have a space of time after dodge rolling that you are immune to all damage. I utilize this all the time to cast an ability.

A dodge roll can avoid an infinite amount of damage, a damage shield can't. A dodge roll is something that requires skill and timing to use, a damage shield does not.

Trust me, If I could somehow make a magick based build that utilized dodge rolls as my active defense I'd do it. It is ZoS that pigeonholes us into using shields, not just our preference.

Vis wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Don't worry, DDuke. The new patch notes should be up soon. Based on ZOS's history of nerfing things based on the forum complaints of PvP-only players, I'd say the odds are excellent that sorcs will soon return to their familiar spot as negate-monkeys at the back of the pecking order.

(Negate got nerfed, too, though).

If you are careful and watch what MOST people say is that mainly they want item/skill procs and DoTs to apply against shields. Maybe crits as well. That is the main thing. After that we can talk about adjustments IF they are required.

I agree with procs and crits applying. It's the "if" after that which has me concerned. By sad experience, some people will never stop crying nerf until their class have no other challengers.

Are any of you people actually playing in the PTS? It isn't being ruled by shield stacking sorcs right now.

Vis

DDuke wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Don't worry, DDuke. The new patch notes should be up soon. Based on ZOS's history of nerfing things based on the forum complaints of PvP-only players, I'd say the odds are excellent that sorcs will soon return to their familiar spot as negate-monkeys at the back of the pecking order.

(Negate got nerfed, too, though).

If you are careful and watch what MOST people say is that mainly they want item/skill procs and DoTs to apply against shields. Maybe crits as well. That is the main thing. After that we can talk about adjustments IF they are required.

I agree with procs and crits applying. It's the "if" after that which has me concerned. By sad experience, some people will never stop crying nerf until their class have no other challengers.

Except this isn't about any particular class, it's about game mechanic available to everyone that has been broken for a looong time now, and only became more broken in 1.6.

It influences some classes more than others. For instance, my DK is just as happy in a stamina build. My sorc? The transition is not as good. You have to understand how this affects each class differently. Have you tried actually playing a sorc on pts?

DDuke

Vis wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Don't worry, DDuke. The new patch notes should be up soon. Based on ZOS's history of nerfing things based on the forum complaints of PvP-only players, I'd say the odds are excellent that sorcs will soon return to their familiar spot as negate-monkeys at the back of the pecking order.

(Negate got nerfed, too, though).

If you are careful and watch what MOST people say is that mainly they want item/skill procs and DoTs to apply against shields. Maybe crits as well. That is the main thing. After that we can talk about adjustments IF they are required.

I agree with procs and crits applying. It's the "if" after that which has me concerned. By sad experience, some people will never stop crying nerf until their class have no other challengers.

Except this isn't about any particular class, it's about game mechanic available to everyone that has been broken for a looong time now, and only became more broken in 1.6.

It influences some classes more than others. For instance, my DK is just as happy in a stamina build. My sorc? The transition is not as good. You have to understand how this affects each class differently. Have you tried actually playing a sorc on pts?

Difference between DKs with dmg shield & DKs without on Live & PTS:

DK with damage shield or over 3,2k~ health dies anywhere between 15 mins-never
DK without damage shield dies in <0,1 seconds


I'm not happy with either scenario, and same applies to every other class in game, from Sorc to Templar.

As for sorcs, I do have one & I have tested some things in PTS.

I am still convinced you can survive without dmg shield playing as a sorc, even better actually in 1.6, since you can burst people down much easier & then just Bolt Escape away.
Entropy->Meteor->Crystal Frags kills pretty much anyone who is not stacking shields.

I would like to see some other defensive mechanisms for sorcs, though.

Edit: I feel I should state that no one is still implying dmg shields should be removed.
They should just be toned down, so that they allow weapon procs, ability charges, ulti gain, crits etc.
If this doesn't fix the problem, then other solutions should be examined.

Vis

DDuke wrote: »

Edit: I feel I should state that no one is still implying dmg shields should be removed.
They should just be toned down, so that they allow weapon procs, ability charges, ulti gain, crits etc.
If this doesn't fix the problem, then other solutions should be examined.

And people are with you on that. But hyperboles like OP, unkillable, no downside, and nerf are going to rile up animosity, even if you're not the one using them. So if you want better understanding, always acknowledge what they can and can't do and continue to clarify the extent of change you want (i.e. you are not for making them scale off of hp or reducing their magnitude).

Snit

DDuke wrote: »

I am still convinced you can survive without dmg shield playing as a sorc, even better actually in 1.6, since you can burst people down much easier & then just Bolt Escape away.

In this scenario, the sorc 'survives' by never getting attacked. Yes, that tactic will ensure immortality, as long as nobody attacks you. Shields would not matter either way. If nobody ever attacked me, I wouldn't bother putting shields on the bar.

I love the fact that your 'sorc burst' consists almost entirely of non-sorc skills, and that 95% of the damage output is an ultimate.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

As for sorcs, I do have one & I have tested some things in PTS.

I am still convinced you can survive without dmg shield playing as a sorc, even better actually in 1.6, since you can burst people down much easier & then just Bolt Escape away.
Entropy->Meteor->Crystal Frags kills pretty much anyone who is not stacking shields.

I would like to see some other defensive mechanisms for sorcs, though.

Edit: I feel I should state that no one is still implying dmg shields should be removed.
They should just be toned down, so that they allow weapon procs, ability charges, ulti gain, crits etc.
If this doesn't fix the problem, then other solutions should be examined.

Everything you say here proves you know little about PvP and likely haven't been playing on PTS.

Meteor is blockable, reflectable, hits ball lightning. The damage is not even that great.

There isn't a player I've come across in PTS I've been able to "Burst down" without being touched.

Do you even PvP? Are the people discussing the merits of these abilities in PvP even real skilled PvPers?

Joy_Division

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

As for sorcs, I do have one & I have tested some things in PTS.

I am still convinced you can survive without dmg shield playing as a sorc, even better actually in 1.6, since you can burst people down much easier & then just Bolt Escape away.
Entropy->Meteor->Crystal Frags kills pretty much anyone who is not stacking shields.

I would like to see some other defensive mechanisms for sorcs, though.

Edit: I feel I should state that no one is still implying dmg shields should be removed.
They should just be toned down, so that they allow weapon procs, ability charges, ulti gain, crits etc.
If this doesn't fix the problem, then other solutions should be examined.

Everything you say here proves you know little about PvP and likely haven't been playing on PTS.

Meteor is blockable, reflectable, hits ball lightning. The damage is not even that great.

There isn't a player I've come across in PTS I've been able to "Burst down" without being touched.

Do you even PvP? Are the people discussing the merits of these abilities in PvP even real skilled PvPers?

Don't waste your breath. All this dude has done the past few months is complain on the forums about damage shields.

DDuke

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

As for sorcs, I do have one & I have tested some things in PTS.

I am still convinced you can survive without dmg shield playing as a sorc, even better actually in 1.6, since you can burst people down much easier & then just Bolt Escape away.
Entropy->Meteor->Crystal Frags kills pretty much anyone who is not stacking shields.

I would like to see some other defensive mechanisms for sorcs, though.

Edit: I feel I should state that no one is still implying dmg shields should be removed.
They should just be toned down, so that they allow weapon procs, ability charges, ulti gain, crits etc.
If this doesn't fix the problem, then other solutions should be examined.

Everything you say here proves you know little about PvP and likely haven't been playing on PTS.

Meteor is blockable, reflectable, hits ball lightning. The damage is not even that great.

It was just an example.
Another way of bursting someone down would be the new Magicka Detonation timed with Velocious Curse & Crystal Frags. Follow up with Soul Assault if target isn't dead.

And I do have other combos, which I prefer to keep secret

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

There isn't a player I've come across in PTS I've been able to "Burst down" without being touched.

Could it be because everyone is stacking shields to infinity? Just a thought...

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Do you even PvP? Are the people discussing the merits of these abilities in PvP even real skilled PvPers?

Well, you could find an answer to that by clicking the link on my signature.

But to answer your second question: skilled enough to 1vX & beat most people without utilizing cheesy mechanics like dmg shields (or even heals). OH WAIT, that's supposed to be impossibru.
Sorry for bragging, I don't like doing that, but your comment just asked for it.

Joy_Division

And remind people just how good he is at all aspects of the game...

DDuke

Joy_Division wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

As for sorcs, I do have one & I have tested some things in PTS.

I am still convinced you can survive without dmg shield playing as a sorc, even better actually in 1.6, since you can burst people down much easier & then just Bolt Escape away.
Entropy->Meteor->Crystal Frags kills pretty much anyone who is not stacking shields.

I would like to see some other defensive mechanisms for sorcs, though.

Edit: I feel I should state that no one is still implying dmg shields should be removed.
They should just be toned down, so that they allow weapon procs, ability charges, ulti gain, crits etc.
If this doesn't fix the problem, then other solutions should be examined.

Everything you say here proves you know little about PvP and likely haven't been playing on PTS.

Meteor is blockable, reflectable, hits ball lightning. The damage is not even that great.

There isn't a player I've come across in PTS I've been able to "Burst down" without being touched.

Do you even PvP? Are the people discussing the merits of these abilities in PvP even real skilled PvPers?

Don't waste your breath. All this dude has done the past few months is complain on the forums about damage shields.

Yes, I'm a hipster. I hated dmg shields even before it became popular.

That said, most people agreed with me even during the past few months: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/143759/would-you-like-dmg-shields-heals-to-become-more-or-less-prevalent-in-pvp

Maybe if ZOS paid attention, there wouldn't be people complaining right now?

kkampaseb17_ESO

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

A dodge roll can avoid an infinite amount of damage, a damage shield can't. A dodge roll is something that requires skill and timing to use, a damage shield does not.

There you said it yourself. That is why you cannot compare them. Just add 200-300ms ping and your dodge is useless as any meaningful defensive skill.

Again though, this derails the thread, which is not a comparison between damage shields and dodge rolls...or block. Let's stay focused on the fact that ZoS has to allow procs/dots and maybe crits. If we tunnel vision them maybe they will stick with this and hopefully solve this once and for all...

P.S Funnily enough, this change will not affect PvE players since mobs do not have procs that are blocked by shields or critical hits.

Maulkin

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Meteor is blockable, reflectable, hits ball lightning. The damage is not even that great.

Actually, the bolded part is not true. It is true on live, but not true on PTS. Ball of Ligtning does not absorb meteor.

However, it still gets reflected by Scales, as well as Defensive Posture. Which makes my S&B, BoL Sorc all the more lovable

Tested that yesterday.

Sharee

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

You actually have a space of time after dodge rolling that you are immune to all damage. I utilize this all the time to cast an ability.

This is simply wrong. And i am saying this as someone who has been playing a stamina NB since release and for whom a dodge roll is the primary defensive mechanic.

Dodge roll only protects during the roll. If there was some kind of window after rolling that would allow for a cast while still immune, i could use that window to do another dodge roll and be completely immune until i run out of stamina.

Anyone who ever tried dodge rolling away from a zerg will tell you: When you are pelted with several attacks per second and are chaining rolls together, you take damage during the brief moment after one roll ends and before you can initiate another one. There is no magical 'space of time' where you can use abilities yet are still immune after dodge rolling.

The only exception is if you are wearing the crusader set. In that case you will get a 0.3 second window after a dodge roll where you still are immune. (That set however has exploration on all traits, and no-one ever uses it.)

Continually rolling away from a zerg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmr7KjCDOWQ

Kalman

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

As for sorcs, I do have one & I have tested some things in PTS.

I am still convinced you can survive without dmg shield playing as a sorc, even better actually in 1.6, since you can burst people down much easier & then just Bolt Escape away.
Entropy->Meteor->Crystal Frags kills pretty much anyone who is not stacking shields.

I would like to see some other defensive mechanisms for sorcs, though.

Edit: I feel I should state that no one is still implying dmg shields should be removed.
They should just be toned down, so that they allow weapon procs, ability charges, ulti gain, crits etc.
If this doesn't fix the problem, then other solutions should be examined.

Everything you say here proves you know little about PvP and likely haven't been playing on PTS.

Meteor is blockable, reflectable, hits ball lightning. The damage is not even that great.

There isn't a player I've come across in PTS I've been able to "Burst down" without being touched.

Do you even PvP? Are the people discussing the merits of these abilities in PvP even real skilled PvPers?

Don't waste your breath. All this dude has done the past few months is complain on the forums about damage shields.

Yes, I'm a hipster. I hated dmg shields even before it became popular.

That said, most people agreed with me even during the past few months: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/143759/would-you-like-dmg-shields-heals-to-become-more-or-less-prevalent-in-pvp

Maybe if ZOS paid attention, there wouldn't be people complaining right now?

Don´t post your biased polls and claim they have significance to them. You did not even create a: its fine as it is option.

Biased poll is biased.

Actually if you count other and pro shields together this is a pro dmg shield poll. So there is that.

Maulkin

Sharee wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

You actually have a space of time after dodge rolling that you are immune to all damage. I utilize this all the time to cast an ability.

This is simply wrong. And i am saying this as someone who has been playing a stamina NB since release and for whom a dodge roll is the primary defensive mechanic.

Dodge roll only protects during the roll. If there was some kind of window after rolling that would allow for a cast while still immune, i could use that window to do another dodge roll and be completely immune until i run out of stamina.

Anyone who ever tried dodge rolling away from a zerg will tell you: When you are pelted with several attacks per second and are chaining rolls together, you take damage during the brief moment after one roll ends and before you can initiate another one. There is no magical 'space of time' where you can use abilities yet are still immune after dodge rolling.

The only exception is if you are wearing the crusader set. In that case you will get a 0.3 second window after a dodge roll where you still are immune. (That set however has exploration on all traits, and no-one ever uses it.)

Continually rolling away from a zerg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmr7KjCDOWQ

Well, my experience has been that after you roll dodge and for a limited amount of time, you gain high dodge chance. You don't avoid all projectiles, but you start doing that "lean back & slide" animation and you avoid some.

I'm sure I'm not imagining this. It must have happened to other ppl too right? The caveat is that while you do that animation you can't cast other skills, so you kinda pray you don't get hit by something heavy and get floored during that split second.

EDIT: Actually you can see the animation I'm talking in your video, at about at 11" in :P

Ezareth

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Meteor is blockable, reflectable, hits ball lightning. The damage is not even that great.

Actually, the bolded part is not true. It is true on live, but not true on PTS. Ball of Ligtning does not absorb meteor.

However, it still gets reflected by Scales, as well as Defensive Posture. Which makes my S&B, BoL Sorc all the more lovable

Tested that yesterday.

I've had it hit my Ball lightning on PTS (Nerf Sorc had a few hit my ball of lightning).

That said I did notice it appears to miss the ball lightning more often as I've had several hit me where in the past it always seemed to hit by BoL instead.

Regardless, when I hear the meteor sound I always hold block.

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

A dodge roll can avoid an infinite amount of damage, a damage shield can't. A dodge roll is something that requires skill and timing to use, a damage shield does not.

There you said it yourself. That is why you cannot compare them. Just add 200-300ms ping and your dodge is useless as any meaningful defensive skill.

Again though, this derails the thread, which is not a comparison between damage shields and dodge rolls...or block. Let's stay focused on the fact that ZoS has to allow procs/dots and maybe crits. If we tunnel vision them maybe they will stick with this and hopefully solve this once and for all...

P.S Funnily enough, this change will not affect PvE players since mobs do not have procs that are blocked by shields or critical hits.

I still don't understand why you can't compare them. There are benefits and tradeoffs for each. If you have a 200-300ms ping then you probably aren't going to do too well in PvP regardless and the difference between great players and good players is one of timing and reactions.

I'm only trying to highlight the different defensive avenues supplied to each of the armor classes. ZoS clearly nerfed the defensive mitigation of light armor to prevent "Tanks" from wearing light armor. The goal from what I can see of the changes was to make light armor wearers rely on shields. Now that we're doing just that, people are complaining that they are too strong which I don't agree with. I only think there are some bugs that need fixed which I pointed out, Ultimate gain and dots/effects should work through shields.

People are trying to say some major changes need done to shields to balance them but no balance is ever achieved with drastic changes, only small minor shifts.

I'm all for a wait and see approach.

Sharee wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

You actually have a space of time after dodge rolling that you are immune to all damage. I utilize this all the time to cast an ability.

This is simply wrong. And i am saying this as someone who has been playing a stamina NB since release and for whom a dodge roll is the primary defensive mechanic.

Dodge roll only protects during the roll. If there was some kind of window after rolling that would allow for a cast while still immune, i could use that window to do another dodge roll and be completely immune until i run out of stamina.

Anyone who ever tried dodge rolling away from a zerg will tell you: When you are pelted with several attacks per second and are chaining rolls together, you take damage during the brief moment after one roll ends and before you can initiate another one. There is no magical 'space of time' where you can use abilities yet are still immune after dodge rolling.

The only exception is if you are wearing the crusader set. In that case you will get a 0.3 second window after a dodge roll where you still are immune. (That set however has exploration on all traits, and no-one ever uses it.)

I disagree with this completely although in a high latency environment with zergs involved I find I'm often hit while mid-dodge roll which I've always assumed was more of a server-response issue than a fault of the dodge roll mechanic.

Dodge roll definitely grants an immunity "window" not an exact defense at the moment of initiation. This is easily demonstrated by me casting ball lightning at you from a distance. I have people often dodge roll 3 or 4 casts of overload with a single roll. You can also cast at a target during a single dodge roll 2 times with instant cast abilities like mages wrath and have both miss during a single roll.

Now perhaps using an active ability at any point during this window of time immediately makes you "hitable" but I often roll behind melee people targeting me and launch a fragment into their back while Immune.