About Shield Stacking

Snit

@Nightreaver, I wouldn't bother continuing the argument about sorc mechanics with someone who doesn't understand them.

DDuke

Snit wrote: »

@Nightreaver, I wouldn't bother continuing the argument about sorc mechanics with someone who doesn't understand them.

Funny how you say that, I've got maybe 3-4 days /played on my Sorc, yet I seem to know more of sorc mechanics than some of the "pros" posting here

I know for certain Surge didn't get "nerfed" when we're talking about PvP.

Previously, it was completely unusable due to Impenetrable, and if something is completely unusable, that's usually worse than it just being suboptimal, or "not good enough".

Should it be buffed to make it more optimal? Perhaps, I never said it shouldn't. Simply that it is usable at last in PvP now.

But balancing this skill is really difficult, since it is offense & defense combined.

Anyhow, enough off topic.

Damage shields are not a sorc specific issue. Blazing Shield, Harness Magicka, Healing Ward etc are just as big offenders.

decado0024_ESO

The problem is that more and more players are converting to "whats op" instead of actually playing their class effectively. For example there was a DC emp for awhile on the PTS, i have not played since the NA chars got wiped so i dont know if hes still emp. He was a templar and all he was doing was stacking shields, sucking the heal off cleanse, and casting that broken new templar execute that procs the 300% damage increase all the time.
This is not playing your char well, this is simply applying every cheap mechanic at the same time. It wasnt just him the population found out that stam builds were getting buffed and most players, traditionally magic based chars included, changed to stam builds. And there is nothing wrong with that, the problem is the fact that these traditionally magic based builds can stack stam and throw on a two handed weapon and still have access to all these different shields. The shields itself are the problem. I play a nightblade, a melee nightblade with a mix of heavy and med armor.I have to get up close and personal and i don't have shields to stack. I get hit by snipers and ganked by other gankers, i have to rely on situational awareness, reaction time, and skill to survive and win.
I suggest removing shields from class abilities completely. Leave the shields from the diff armor trees but remove the class shields, this will level the playing field and force people to actually research and design a class tailored to their play style. If you want to do heavy magic damage thats great,and from a distance your going to lay waste to things but when someone creeps up behind you ..oh well pay attention to your surroundings. If you want to be in the middle of the brawl your going to need heavy armor.If you want the sneaky backstab playstyle you better be crafty cause if they catch you before you strike your done. Its a check and balance system instead of a stack shields and smash your face on the keyboard system

ToRelax

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

@Nightreaver, I wouldn't bother continuing the argument about sorc mechanics with someone who doesn't understand them.

Funny how you say that, I've got maybe 3-4 days /played on my Sorc, yet I seem to know more of sorc mechanics than some of the "pros" posting here

I know for certain Surge didn't get "nerfed" when we're talking about PvP.

Previously, it was completely unusable due to Impenetrable, and if something is completely unusable, that's usually worse than it just being suboptimal, or "not good enough".

Should it be buffed to make it more optimal? Perhaps, I never said it shouldn't. Simply that it is usable at last in PvP now.

But balancing this skill is really difficult, since it is offense & defense combined.

Anyhow, enough off topic.

Damage shields are not a sorc specific issue. Blazing Shield, Harness Magicka, Healing Ward etc are just as big offenders.

*sigh*

Crit Surge is still useful in PvP in 1.5.
Heck, how are you going to convince anyone with 3-4 days played on Sorc you'd know the mechanics any better than for example me with 120 days?
I can tell you after playing on live server again today it was very refreshing seeing Critical Surge heal me up in close situations, so I could drop a Negate and suddenly turn the whole fight.

You and @Nightreaver are both arguing with each other with wrong information, you should seriously just stop that...

TheBull

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

@Nightreaver, I wouldn't bother continuing the argument about sorc mechanics with someone who doesn't understand them.

Funny how you say that, I've got maybe 3-4 days /played on my Sorc, yet I seem to know more of sorc mechanics than some of the "pros" posting here

I know for certain Surge didn't get "nerfed" when we're talking about PvP.

Previously, it was completely unusable due to Impenetrable, and if something is completely unusable, that's usually worse than it just being suboptimal, or "not good enough".

Should it be buffed to make it more optimal? Perhaps, I never said it shouldn't. Simply that it is usable at last in PvP now.

But balancing this skill is really difficult, since it is offense & defense combined.

Anyhow, enough off topic.

Damage shields are not a sorc specific issue. Blazing Shield, Harness Magicka, Healing Ward etc are just as big offenders.

*sigh*

Crit Surge is still useful in PvP in 1.5.
Heck, how are you going to convince anyone with 3-4 days played on Sorc you'd know the mechanics any better than for example me with 120 days?
I can tell you after playing on live server again today it was very refreshing seeing Critical Surge heal me up in close situations, so I could drop a Negate and suddenly turn the whole fight.

You and @Nightreaver are both arguing with each other with wrong information, you should seriously just stop that...

He does have a point doesn't he? Now that impen only reduces crit damage a high crit sorc should see a lot more heals from surge on 1.6 right? A lot more than on live?

Snit

TheBull wrote: »

He does have a point doesn't he? Now that impen only reduces crit damage a high crit sorc should see a lot more heals from surge on 1.6 right? A lot more than on live?

No. That one change in Impenetrable should, in theory, help make Crit Surge useful. However, other changes have made Crit Surge fairly bad in all circumstances. It heals for vastly less than on live, regardless of what your opponent is wearing.

Snit

Double Post

ToRelax

TheBull wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

@Nightreaver, I wouldn't bother continuing the argument about sorc mechanics with someone who doesn't understand them.

Funny how you say that, I've got maybe 3-4 days /played on my Sorc, yet I seem to know more of sorc mechanics than some of the "pros" posting here

I know for certain Surge didn't get "nerfed" when we're talking about PvP.

Previously, it was completely unusable due to Impenetrable, and if something is completely unusable, that's usually worse than it just being suboptimal, or "not good enough".

Should it be buffed to make it more optimal? Perhaps, I never said it shouldn't. Simply that it is usable at last in PvP now.

But balancing this skill is really difficult, since it is offense & defense combined.

Anyhow, enough off topic.

Damage shields are not a sorc specific issue. Blazing Shield, Harness Magicka, Healing Ward etc are just as big offenders.

*sigh*

Crit Surge is still useful in PvP in 1.5.
Heck, how are you going to convince anyone with 3-4 days played on Sorc you'd know the mechanics any better than for example me with 120 days?
I can tell you after playing on live server again today it was very refreshing seeing Critical Surge heal me up in close situations, so I could drop a Negate and suddenly turn the whole fight.

You and @Nightreaver are both arguing with each other with wrong information, you should seriously just stop that...

He does have a point doesn't he? Now that impen only reduces crit damage a high crit sorc should see a lot more heals from surge on 1.6 right? A lot more than on live?

It would be that way if every player in PvP was wearing enough Impeneetrable to fully negate your crit chance wich never was the case.
the cooldown is gimping the ability for most builds far more than Impenetrable did. The only build that I see that could still benefit from Critical Surge is a 2 hand stamina build that relies on Burst damage. This is not a strong choice for a Sorcerer in 1.6 though anyway (at least as long as we are not talking about Shrouded Armor and in that case you don't need Critical Surge anyway).

Ezareth

TheBull wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

1. Ultimate needs to generate on any light/heavy attack done to a shield
2. Dots and negative status effects need to be able to be applied through shields and do damage to them

Shields being unable to be crit is fine as otherwise critical damage becomes far too powerful and the TTK of players decreases even further. Shields give a sorc a chance to create a defense that isn't based off of physical armor which is the way it should be.

As it stands there are plenty of *single* player builds that can tear through the shields of a sorc as fast as he can stack them and on live this just isn't the case.
If no one could make a build that could destroy a min/max shield stacker then I'd agree there was a problem but this just isn't the case.

I strongly disagree that not being able to crit on shields is ok. No class should have a button that makes them immune to crits.

It's game breaking. It renders two entire stat lines useless, crit and crit resist with the press of an inexpensive button.

It only renders them "useless" while shields are up which should typically only matter against casters. Having strong shields is the defensive tradeoff for not having any actual physical defenses or the ability to block/dodge roll, the alternative makes stacking crit far too powerful.

Pretty much every build in the game has at least a soft counter if not a hard one. That's the nature of the game.

Ezareth

<DP>

VarilRau

And just yesterday i was wondering what to do to a DK that was just keeping his reflect shield up all the time and i was alone in with him in the middle of nowhere.

Drop velocious curses until he dies?

You just need a friend or two to burst that shield down. If the sorc in question goes offensive you can kill him. Just as you can kill him if you have a friend.

Sharee

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Having strong shields is the defensive tradeoff for not having any actual physical defenses

Under a tradeoff, i usually understand giving up something you need to get something else you also need. Like, you need damage, and you need survivability, and if you gain one at the cost of the other, that's a tradeoff.

But getting a shield that makes all physical defense a non-factor, while giving up just those physical defenses(that are a non-factor for you anyway, and you thus don't need anymore) is no tradeoff.

Aquanova

XEVENEX wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

Immovable still gives CC immunity for 5 seconds last time I checked. A sorc with 30k magicka can do a lot of harm in 5 seconds....

More like 4 seconds due to animation of immovable. If youre spamming immovable every 5 seconds you are no threat to anyone with half a brain. Your dps will be *** and so will your stamina.

Where did he mention spamming immovable in his quote? He stated a sorc can do alot of damage in 5 seconds, which I happen to agree with.

Derra

OtarTheMad wrote: »

EsORising wrote: »

Sorry to be the noob here but what is shield stacking exactly? What skills combine does it? I'm confused about the whole thread. Can anyone explain this in lamin terms with skill names.

People can run multiple shields on a bar and they all kind of work as one mega shield.

For example. I could go on my Sorcerer and cast Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka and Bound Aegis and be a pretty tough kill even though I am in Light Armor.

You don´t even know what bound aegis does in 1.6 do ya?

TheBull wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

1. Ultimate needs to generate on any light/heavy attack done to a shield
2. Dots and negative status effects need to be able to be applied through shields and do damage to them

Shields being unable to be crit is fine as otherwise critical damage becomes far too powerful and the TTK of players decreases even further. Shields give a sorc a chance to create a defense that isn't based off of physical armor which is the way it should be.

As it stands there are plenty of *single* player builds that can tear through the shields of a sorc as fast as he can stack them and on live this just isn't the case.
If no one could make a build that could destroy a min/max shield stacker then I'd agree there was a problem but this just isn't the case.

I strongly disagree that not being able to crit on shields is ok. No class should have a button that makes them immune to crits.

It's game breaking. It renders two entire stat lines useless, crit and crit resist with the press of an inexpensive button.

When you agree that the caster should be able to critcast shields also, i agree with you. Currently the crit mechanic is excluded for the attacker and the caster of the shield. Should the attacker be able to crit so should the caster of the shield.

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

@Nightreaver, I wouldn't bother continuing the argument about sorc mechanics with someone who doesn't understand them.

Funny how you say that, I've got maybe 3-4 days /played on my Sorc, yet I seem to know more of sorc mechanics than some of the "pros" posting here

I know for certain Surge didn't get "nerfed" when we're talking about PvP.

Previously, it was completely unusable due to Impenetrable, and if something is completely unusable, that's usually worse than it just being suboptimal, or "not good enough".

Should it be buffed to make it more optimal? Perhaps, I never said it shouldn't. Simply that it is usable at last in PvP now.

But balancing this skill is really difficult, since it is offense & defense combined.

Anyhow, enough off topic.

Damage shields are not a sorc specific issue. Blazing Shield, Harness Magicka, Healing Ward etc are just as big offenders.

The arrogance to tell people that have been playing sorc since release and reached 100+ days of /played on their character that you with 3 days of pve playtime understand more of the sorcerers mechanics in pvp is an insult in itself and displays no self reflection at all.

Alone the fact that you claim that sorcerers dps increased with 1.6 shows you have no clue what you´re talking about at all.
Burst increased - With 3 of 4 classes having counters to that burst. Sorc and DK have a hardcounter, NBs is kind of skill depedant.

Also that you think critsurge was unusable in pvp pretty much sums up that you have no clue what you are talking about.

You´re like a teenager that thinks he´s got life figured out. Lesson to learn is: Most likely you´re not smarter than 99% of the people (pretty sure of that bc smart people mostly arenot lacking self reflection in the way you are) and even if you are experience most likely beats being smart.

Sharee wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Having strong shields is the defensive tradeoff for not having any actual physical defenses

Under a tradeoff, i usually understand giving up something you need to get something else you also need. Like, you need damage, and you need survivability, and if you gain one at the cost of the other, that's a tradeoff.

But getting a shield that makes all physical defense a non-factor, while giving up just those physical defenses(that are a non-factor for you anyway, and you thus don't need anymore) is no tradeoff.

When you factor in that to get those shields to a level where they function as a reliable defense mechanism you are simply twoshotted without them - yeah, I would call that a tradeoff.

VarilRau wrote: »

And just yesterday i was wondering what to do to a DK that was just keeping his reflect shield up all the time and i was alone in with him in the middle of nowhere.

Drop velocious curses until he dies?

You just need a friend or two to burst that shield down. If the sorc in question goes offensive you can kill him. Just as you can kill him if you have a friend.

Shh. It´s a DK you´re supposed to die and go cry in a corner against them. You´re just a sorc. Also nerf bolt escape.

Last: I think dots, ultimate and armor proccs should work on shields. I also agree that shields should not be able to stack with other shields.

kkampaseb17_ESO

I agree with Derra on the fact that dots, armor procs, skill procs and all other "on hit" effects should work on shields and no shield stacking.

However, when/if they implement this change we have to see again how shield is working currently. I always considered that either the shield value has to be decreased by 20-25% or allow criticals hits on it.

It is not a proper argument that shield does nothing for mass fights. A 1 vs X scenario shouldn't be possible considering equal players, so that argument is false. You want to survive against many players? Get a dedicated healer...or appropriate number of them.

I even considered as a solution to lower the shield value by 30-40% and lower also magicka cost by an appropriate number. Shield shouldn't be a "fire and forget" skill. You should be wasting time actively and resources to be this defensive. Not fire your shield once in a while and stay invulnerable for the duration while you continue to wreck your opponent.

VarilRau

My point is, get a template character and make a sorc and try it out before you complain about shield stacking.

Yes it makes sorcs pain in the ass to kill. But so what, they wont be killing you.
Or if so, they will have to drop a lot of skills off. No magelight, no twilight, no clanfear, no bound armor, there just aint room for those and shield stacking. Its either damage, or shields, or somewhere a hybrid of these that makes you just as destructive or defensive as everyone else.

Aquanova

Well, I'm just gonna add my 2 cents in here on this topic. The only immediate concern I have on damage shields is that they should all scale off max health, I don't care what resource they draw from but they should scale only off max health. This will force players to consider investing in health to increase it's mitigation which seems like a fair trade off to me. Btw, all classes have access to HA and all races take damage the same, so the 1 shot or 2 shot without magika scaled shields argument is not valid. I guess some ppl just want their cake and eat it too.

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

When you factor in that to get those shields to a level where they function as a reliable defense mechanism you are simply twoshotted without them - yeah, I would call that a tradeoff.

But you aren't without them. That's the point.

A tradeoff is a compromise. Give up damage, gain survivability.
Gaining survivability and damage is no compromise, it's just a straight-up boost.

Now, if shields only protected against magic damage, and you would sacrifice defense against physical attacks (armor) to make your defense against magical attacks (shield) better, that would be a tradeoff. But simply exchanging one form of defense for another one that is superior in all aspects? Nope.

kkampaseb17_ESO

VarilRau wrote: »

My point is, get a template character and make a sorc and try it out before you complain about shield stacking.

Yes it makes sorcs pain in the ass to kill. But so what, they wont be killing you.
Or if so, they will have to drop a lot of skills off. No magelight, no twilight, no clanfear, no bound armor, there just aint room for those and shield stacking. Its either damage, or shields, or somewhere a hybrid of these that makes you just as destructive or defensive as everyone else.

This is totally incorrect. You can shield stack fine and have enough damage to kill anyone. Hell....even Hardened Ward is enough to do that, no shield stacking required. It is called Magicka scaling shield.....

Maulkin

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Funny how you say that, I've got maybe 3-4 days /played on my Sorc, yet I seem to know more of sorc mechanics than some of the "pros" posting here

I know for certain Surge didn't get "nerfed" when we're talking about PvP.

The arrogance to tell people that have been playing sorc since release and reached 100+ days of /played on their character that you with 3 days of pve playtime understand more of the sorcerers mechanics in pvp is an insult in itself and displays no self reflection at all.

You don't need to say more than this. The level of arrogance coupled with ignorance and bias just makes his posts pretty much not worth reading.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

When you factor in that to get those shields to a level where they function as a reliable defense mechanism you are simply twoshotted without them - yeah, I would call that a tradeoff.

But you aren't without them. That's the point.

A tradeoff is a compromise. Give up damage, gain survivability.
Gaining survivability and damage is no compromise, it's just a straight-up boost.

Now, if shields only protected against magic damage, and you would sacrifice defense against physical attacks (armor) to make your defense against magical attacks (shield) better, that would be a tradeoff. But simply exchanging one form of defense for another one that is superior in all aspects? Nope.

They tradeoff you make is giving up the offensive to cast those shields. Some ppl sacrifice a whole weapon slot just to get one shield (some classes have to).
This is a larger sacrifice than some ppl might think and it became worse with 1.6. In 1.5 i would often let my health drop to remain offensive 1 or 2 casts more. This is not an option in 1.6 at all. You have to keep up those shields or you will be dead meat against a competent enemy.

The Problem in my opinion is the damage range on skills. A 2800+ weapon dmg wrecking blow + light attack will annihilate any shield in 1 attack cycle on pts except for the scenario of Necropotence + Bound Aegis 38k+ magica builds (with cc factored even those build will take health dmg and missing 1 weapon switch means death).
With this (and some other: snipe light attack, procced fragments+ curse, rapid strikes + light attack) combos you´re able to lock sorcs in defense mode entirely if they don´t utilize mines (mines are in the same boat as reflect imho - its pretty much a melee hardcounter).

Should they lower the value of shields for characters that do not reach these absurdly high magica values they are going to take health damage every attack cycle. Now factor in CC and the ability to literally twoshot light armor users with the current damage: you´re balancing on the razors edge and shields (light armor) becomes not worth using at all with drastic changes.
Now you´ve got a class with no active defense and no reliable class heal.
You have to balance shields to compete with the highest damage skills on a 1:1 ratio because every skill is spamable and with blow/rapidstrikes no longer being interuptable they are no longer hard to use or used with a risk.

They should make shields not stackable. Proccs and dots on shield working. Ultimate gain working and have a look at the balance after that. My gut feeling is that alone dots working on shields would be a huge deal.

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

VarilRau wrote: »

My point is, get a template character and make a sorc and try it out before you complain about shield stacking.

Yes it makes sorcs pain in the ass to kill. But so what, they wont be killing you.
Or if so, they will have to drop a lot of skills off. No magelight, no twilight, no clanfear, no bound armor, there just aint room for those and shield stacking. Its either damage, or shields, or somewhere a hybrid of these that makes you just as destructive or defensive as everyone else.

This is totally incorrect. You can shield stack fine and have enough damage to kill anyone. Hell....even Hardened Ward is enough to do that, no shield stacking required. It is called Magicka scaling shield.....

This is not correct. There are builds where you have to make this tradeoff (and you have to balance for that case - sadly). The problem is the damage range between skills is absurdly high at the moment. There are some builds that can entirely lock you in defense mode. A magica DK / NB / Templar won´t be able to do that though. Another Sorc is dependant to proccs.

kkampaseb17_ESO

Derra wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

VarilRau wrote: »

My point is, get a template character and make a sorc and try it out before you complain about shield stacking.

Yes it makes sorcs pain in the ass to kill. But so what, they wont be killing you.
Or if so, they will have to drop a lot of skills off. No magelight, no twilight, no clanfear, no bound armor, there just aint room for those and shield stacking. Its either damage, or shields, or somewhere a hybrid of these that makes you just as destructive or defensive as everyone else.

This is totally incorrect. You can shield stack fine and have enough damage to kill anyone. Hell....even Hardened Ward is enough to do that, no shield stacking required. It is called Magicka scaling shield.....

This is not correct. There are builds where you have to make this tradeoff (and you have to balance for that case - sadly). The problem is the damage range between skills is absurdly high at the moment. There are some builds that can entirely lock you in defense mode. A magica DK / NB / Templar won´t be able to do that though. Another Sorc is dependant to proccs.

As a very proc dependent fellow Sorc that is very very very offensively focused I can tell you I cannot do that. I cannot lock a full magicka sorc in defensive mode and I eventually die cause exactly my survivability depends on procs.

XEVENEX

How many shields could a shield stacker stack if a shield stacker could stack shields? lol We shall soon see. 1.6.2 patch notes incoming.

Maulkin

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

VarilRau wrote: »

My point is, get a template character and make a sorc and try it out before you complain about shield stacking.

Yes it makes sorcs pain in the ass to kill. But so what, they wont be killing you.
Or if so, they will have to drop a lot of skills off. No magelight, no twilight, no clanfear, no bound armor, there just aint room for those and shield stacking. Its either damage, or shields, or somewhere a hybrid of these that makes you just as destructive or defensive as everyone else.

This is totally incorrect. You can shield stack fine and have enough damage to kill anyone. Hell....even Hardened Ward is enough to do that, no shield stacking required. It is called Magicka scaling shield.....

This is not correct. There are builds where you have to make this tradeoff (and you have to balance for that case - sadly). The problem is the damage range between skills is absurdly high at the moment. There are some builds that can entirely lock you in defense mode. A magica DK / NB / Templar won´t be able to do that though. Another Sorc is dependant to proccs.

As a very proc dependent fellow Sorc that is very very very offensively focused I can tell you I cannot do that. I cannot lock a full magicka sorc in defensive mode and I eventually die cause exactly my survivability depends on procs.

Why does your survivability depend on procs as an offensive sorc? I'm confused. What skills do you run?

Derra

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

VarilRau wrote: »

My point is, get a template character and make a sorc and try it out before you complain about shield stacking.

Yes it makes sorcs pain in the ass to kill. But so what, they wont be killing you.
Or if so, they will have to drop a lot of skills off. No magelight, no twilight, no clanfear, no bound armor, there just aint room for those and shield stacking. Its either damage, or shields, or somewhere a hybrid of these that makes you just as destructive or defensive as everyone else.

This is totally incorrect. You can shield stack fine and have enough damage to kill anyone. Hell....even Hardened Ward is enough to do that, no shield stacking required. It is called Magicka scaling shield.....

This is not correct. There are builds where you have to make this tradeoff (and you have to balance for that case - sadly). The problem is the damage range between skills is absurdly high at the moment. There are some builds that can entirely lock you in defense mode. A magica DK / NB / Templar won´t be able to do that though. Another Sorc is dependant to proccs.

As a very proc dependent fellow Sorc that is very very very offensively focused I can tell you I cannot do that. I cannot lock a full magicka sorc in defensive mode and I eventually die cause exactly my survivability depends on procs.

Well you could use bol which pretty much grants you immunity against magica based ranged play.
What sets are you using? I find myself quite able to lock an enemy into defense mode with them about 80% recasting shields 20% offensive abilities whereas i´m doing it the other way round.

Problem is against bol you won´t do much at all. It´s a game of who screw up first.

But that was my point anyway. Shields have to be powerful enough to hold up against full stam dmg. Magica builds are not able to compete on sustained dmg apart from a sorc with a VERY lucky streak of CF proccs.

XEVENEX

Derra wrote: »

Well you could use bol which pretty much grants you immunity against magica based ranged play.

Which is stupid. Sorc here. I wish they would nerf that into the ground along with reflecting ultimates.

kkampaseb17_ESO

Derra wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

VarilRau wrote: »

My point is, get a template character and make a sorc and try it out before you complain about shield stacking.

Yes it makes sorcs pain in the ass to kill. But so what, they wont be killing you.
Or if so, they will have to drop a lot of skills off. No magelight, no twilight, no clanfear, no bound armor, there just aint room for those and shield stacking. Its either damage, or shields, or somewhere a hybrid of these that makes you just as destructive or defensive as everyone else.

This is totally incorrect. You can shield stack fine and have enough damage to kill anyone. Hell....even Hardened Ward is enough to do that, no shield stacking required. It is called Magicka scaling shield.....

This is not correct. There are builds where you have to make this tradeoff (and you have to balance for that case - sadly). The problem is the damage range between skills is absurdly high at the moment. There are some builds that can entirely lock you in defense mode. A magica DK / NB / Templar won´t be able to do that though. Another Sorc is dependant to proccs.

As a very proc dependent fellow Sorc that is very very very offensively focused I can tell you I cannot do that. I cannot lock a full magicka sorc in defensive mode and I eventually die cause exactly my survivability depends on procs.

Well you could use bol which pretty much grants you immunity against magica based ranged play.
What sets are you using? I find myself quite able to lock an enemy into defense mode with them about 80% recasting shields 20% offensive abilities whereas i´m doing it the other way round.

Problem is against bol you won´t do much at all. It´s a game of who screw up first.

But that was my point anyway. Shields have to be powerful enough to hold up against full stam dmg. Magica builds are not able to compete on sustained dmg apart from a sorc with a VERY lucky streak of CF proccs.

Let's say I am a stamina DW sorc. So I am sure you know who I am since we have talked many times The problem is that to people that know how to play proper sorc like Elo'dryel or even doggy on his template sorc (O_o) I cannot just lock them in defensive mode. It doesn't happen like that. BoL could give some breathing...but it looses the capabilities of Streak exactly for an offensive oriented build.

I do not complain that I don't have enough survivability...but in a 1 vs 1 situation where I put all my money in offense with some defensive procs, shield wins 90% of the time while I cannot pressure them enough. That's the problem. The only way you can do that currently it is a 2h build. So instead of fixing that insane burst and shield potency, *** you to the rest of the builds?

Derra

XEVENEX wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well you could use bol which pretty much grants you immunity against magica based ranged play.

Which is stupid. Sorc here. I wish they would nerf that into the ground along with reflecting ultimates.

Oh. I hear you. I would love that too.
Reflect is in the same boat - that "nerf" was mere scam for the crybabys on the forums.

Derra

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

VarilRau wrote: »

My point is, get a template character and make a sorc and try it out before you complain about shield stacking.

Yes it makes sorcs pain in the ass to kill. But so what, they wont be killing you.
Or if so, they will have to drop a lot of skills off. No magelight, no twilight, no clanfear, no bound armor, there just aint room for those and shield stacking. Its either damage, or shields, or somewhere a hybrid of these that makes you just as destructive or defensive as everyone else.

This is totally incorrect. You can shield stack fine and have enough damage to kill anyone. Hell....even Hardened Ward is enough to do that, no shield stacking required. It is called Magicka scaling shield.....

This is not correct. There are builds where you have to make this tradeoff (and you have to balance for that case - sadly). The problem is the damage range between skills is absurdly high at the moment. There are some builds that can entirely lock you in defense mode. A magica DK / NB / Templar won´t be able to do that though. Another Sorc is dependant to proccs.

As a very proc dependent fellow Sorc that is very very very offensively focused I can tell you I cannot do that. I cannot lock a full magicka sorc in defensive mode and I eventually die cause exactly my survivability depends on procs.

Well you could use bol which pretty much grants you immunity against magica based ranged play.
What sets are you using? I find myself quite able to lock an enemy into defense mode with them about 80% recasting shields 20% offensive abilities whereas i´m doing it the other way round.

Problem is against bol you won´t do much at all. It´s a game of who screw up first.

But that was my point anyway. Shields have to be powerful enough to hold up against full stam dmg. Magica builds are not able to compete on sustained dmg apart from a sorc with a VERY lucky streak of CF proccs.

Let's say I am a stamina DW sorc. So I am sure you know who I am since we have talked many times The problem is that to people that know how to play proper sorc like Elo'dryel or even doggy on his template sorc (O_o) I cannot just lock them in defensive mode. It doesn't happen like that. BoL could give some breathing...but it looses the capabilities of Streak exactly for an offensive oriented build.

I do not complain that I don't have enough survivability...but in a 1 vs 1 situation where I put all my money in offense with some defensive procs, shield wins 90% of the time while I cannot pressure them enough. That's the problem. The only way you can do that currently it is a 2h build. So instead of fixing that insane burst and shield potency, *** you to the rest of the builds?

Oh well. That´s a pure stamina sorc problem though. Sorcs class design in no way encourages stamina play (sadly). There are no synergies to be found and no "worthy" magica buffs (looking at cloak, reflect, sunshield - you won´t find something comparable in the sorc arsenal).
The only stamina sorc i could see working atm is a bow variant with bol (maybe 2h hybrid too but not pure stam).

You´re kind of using the "worst" weapon set for sorcs and don´t utilize the only buff that might be worth the magica (balllightning) in my opinion. Still DW kinda does not work with bol.

kkampaseb17_ESO

Derra wrote: »

Oh well. That´s a pure stamina sorc problem though. Sorcs class design in no way encourages stamina play (sadly). There are no synergies to be found and no "worthy" magica buffs (looking at cloak, reflect, sunshield - you won´t find something comparable in the sorc arsenal).
The only stamina sorc i could see working atm is a bow variant with bol.

Yea I have been considering that as well. But I have bow just as a filler...not main weapon. At least that's the idea. Ahh well, maybe I had a problem also due to 400-600 ping due to the EU thing. I hope that's the problem due to having a "reflexive" build rather than a blockbot/shieldspam, cause the other EU players didn't seem to have a problem.

Also something else. I tried to incorporate some "defensive" aspects in to the build, like the new vigor. I can tell you the results were worse since you lack the sustainability/survivability of a shield build and you certainly loose the offensive edge. It is a loose/loose situation.

But I think I am derailing the thread. Apologies.

P.S Allow crits/DoTs/item or skill procs through shields. I don't see why I am not allowed to proc Evil Hunter or Ravager through shield. Not a single good reason....