About Shield Stacking

Digiman

Shield stacking just represents a problem ZoS overlooked when they decided to go ahead with nerfing light armor. Honestly I don't see how this won't end when the patch goes live with ZoS just crippling shields like Ward and annulment and cloth caster being forced to go heavy armor or switch to stamina builds to be competitive in PvP.

ZoS has already clearly proven this between what they have stated for Sorcerers and what they have done to them.

Shield stacking obviously revealed ZoS oversight when they went ahead with the class changes.

Cloth barely has the spell penetration is has on live and there is no real damage incentives in magika to remain in cloth. Only magicka resource effencient obviously geared toward a healer which they seem intent on pigeon holding magicka DPS into.

But I will wait and see when 1.6 goes live to see if I am wrong. Eitherway I am not optimistic with how ZoS would handle the future of Sorcerer class.

Tankqull

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Even 50% heal on an Entropy->Crystal Frag crit equals to Templar BoL~ more or less, while also dealing huge burst with the Crystal Frag.

I don't believe Entropy (I assume you mean Degeneration) procs on anything other than "weapon attacks," more specifically light and heavy attacks.

If Entropy procced on Crystal Fragments, that would be significant.

He means The heal off a Crit Surge proc while using those skills.....

as the buff of surge and entropy block each other there is simply no need for entropy if he is NOT aiming for the heal of entropy...

regarding entropy+overload - overload doesent proc the heal as it is no weapon attack same problem as before.

DDuke

Tankqull wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Even 50% heal on an Entropy->Crystal Frag crit equals to Templar BoL~ more or less, while also dealing huge burst with the Crystal Frag.

I don't believe Entropy (I assume you mean Degeneration) procs on anything other than "weapon attacks," more specifically light and heavy attacks.

If Entropy procced on Crystal Fragments, that would be significant.

He means The heal off a Crit Surge proc while using those skills.....

as the buff of surge and entropy block each other there is simply no need for entropy if he is NOT aiming for the heal of entropy...

regarding entropy+overload - overload doesent proc the heal as it is no weapon attack same problem as before.

Ah, that's a good point. I didn't realize they both granted the same buff, my apologies.

Perhaps another Mages Guild skill then, instead of Entropy. You still get the +20% damage on next attack, giving you a big heal if it crits.

Good to know also that Entropy+Overload doesn't work, I was about to go test that one myself. Could've been an interesting combo, but atleast Surge works very well with Overload (which is very strong atm in PTS).

Solanum

Digiman wrote: »

Shield stacking just represents a problem ZoS overlooked when they decided to go ahead with nerfing light armor. Honestly I don't see how this won't end when the patch goes live with ZoS just crippling shields like Ward and annulment and cloth caster being forced to go heavy armor or switch to stamina builds to be competitive in PvP.

ZoS has already clearly proven this between what they have stated for Sorcerers and what they have done to them.

Shield stacking obviously revealed ZoS oversight when they went ahead with the class changes.

Cloth barely has the spell penetration is has on live and there is no real damage incentives in magika to remain in cloth. Only magicka resource effencient obviously geared toward a healer which they seem intent on pigeon holding magicka DPS into.

But I will wait and see when 1.6 goes live to see if I am wrong. Eitherway I am not optimistic with how ZoS would handle the future of Sorcerer class.

There is just so much that bothers me in this post. The part about being forced into a stamina build and heavy armor to remain competitive is especially laughable.

Log on to PTS, make a heavy armor stamina build, and duel a few sorcerers. Unless they are truly clueless you'll get your plated ass handed to you.

In regards to DPS being pigeon holed into a healing role, I think you really need to take a long hard look at the AMAZING DPS abilities granted to plate. That said, magicka has got simply sickingly good resource management in light armor.
Also, there is The Atronach mundus stone, and several sets to reduce magicka cost and increase it's recovery. A luxury stamina lacks.
But please, tell me how resources aren't needed to deal damage.

I still am strongly in favor of shields scaling with health, defensive power should come at the cost of offensive power. I would not agree to damage absorption shields scaling with stamina either for exactly the same reason.

ToRelax

Tankqull wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Even 50% heal on an Entropy->Crystal Frag crit equals to Templar BoL~ more or less, while also dealing huge burst with the Crystal Frag.

I don't believe Entropy (I assume you mean Degeneration) procs on anything other than "weapon attacks," more specifically light and heavy attacks.

If Entropy procced on Crystal Fragments, that would be significant.

He means The heal off a Crit Surge proc while using those skills.....

as the buff of surge and entropy block each other there is simply no need for entropy if he is NOT aiming for the heal of entropy...

regarding entropy+overload - overload doesent proc the heal as it is no weapon attack same problem as before.

Ok... ( @DDuke you might want to read this, too)

Overload attacks are "normal" light and heavy attacks in the game, that proc Degeneration heal and ult regen buff.

I always have Degeneration on my Overload bars, in live and on PTS.
And it can indeed heal a lot with both Critical Surge and Degeneration, although Critical Surge is nerfed into uselessness.
Not going to argue with about that now either, anyone still thinking Crit Surge is viable is either misinformed, plays 2 hand stamn build or is pretty ***.

Solanum wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Shield stacking just represents a problem ZoS overlooked when they decided to go ahead with nerfing light armor. Honestly I don't see how this won't end when the patch goes live with ZoS just crippling shields like Ward and annulment and cloth caster being forced to go heavy armor or switch to stamina builds to be competitive in PvP.

ZoS has already clearly proven this between what they have stated for Sorcerers and what they have done to them.

Shield stacking obviously revealed ZoS oversight when they went ahead with the class changes.

Cloth barely has the spell penetration is has on live and there is no real damage incentives in magika to remain in cloth. Only magicka resource effencient obviously geared toward a healer which they seem intent on pigeon holding magicka DPS into.

But I will wait and see when 1.6 goes live to see if I am wrong. Eitherway I am not optimistic with how ZoS would handle the future of Sorcerer class.

There is just so much that bothers me in this post. The part about being forced into a stamina build and heavy armor to remain competitive is especially laughable.

Log on to PTS, make a heavy armor stamina build, and duel a few sorcerers. Unless they are truly clueless you'll get your plated ass handed to you.

In regards to DPS being pigeon holed into a healing role, I think you really need to take a long hard look at the AMAZING DPS abilities granted to plate. That said, magicka has got simply sickingly good resource management in light armor.
Also, there is The Atronach mundus stone, and several sets to reduce magicka cost and increase it's recovery. A luxury stamina lacks.
But please, tell me how resources aren't needed to deal damage.

I still am strongly in favor of shields scaling with health, defensive power should come at the cost of offensive power. I would not agree to damage absorption shields scaling with stamina either for exactly the same reason.

DPS is =/= Burst Damage.

I don't really care for my dps as long as i can do the content if I want to, as I mainly do PvP, but that doesn't change the fact dps is low except maybe for that pet build (wich is not what you see dominating PvP).

Panda244

Shield stacking has never had an effect on my experience in PvP, and I don't think it will in 1.6 either, if you're in a battle, and a target is taking to long to kill, and there aren't any enemy healers present, move to the weaker link, kill the weak links, then kill the stronger targets.

EsORising

Sorry to be the noob here but what is shield stacking exactly? What skills combine does it? I'm confused about the whole thread. Can anyone explain this in lamin terms with skill names.

Maulkin

People making assumptions about how open PvP will turn out to be based on duels, I mean lolz. How often do you get genuine 1v1s in open PvP, hmm? Once a week?

People saying shields are god mode. WTF? You tell me how OP shields are when you get focused by 2 or 3, min/maxed ranged DDs like a crushy build and a couple of archers for example. Based on the damage numbers I'm seeing (like 10k hits all over the place) those shields will melt in under 1" and you'll be dead before you can renew them. Your major survivability will still come from things like Ball of Lightning, Scales, Mistform, Cloak, Dodge-Roll, LoS cover etc. Shields have scaled but so has damage, they won't offer anything more than a small cushion in open PvP.

Also damage shields are the only thing LA wearers have going for them atm. Because LA offers next to 0 mitigation. It also offers next to 0 penetration now. Medium armor stamina builds hit even harder and mitigate more damage. I see a relative balance even in the duels so far. 2H and S&B stamina builds seem to fair pretty well against magicka builds and that is despite magicka builds being able to spam shields.

That said, they need to make it so that you can generate ult off shields and that all the DoTs tick on them etc. They do mitigate a bit too much atm.

Dracane

There is only one reason, why there is a cooldown on Surge now:

Because ZoS had the "brilliant" idea to remove the AoE cap (which is bad in my opinion) and if there was no cooldown on Surge, a Sorcerer would be full health with one single Pulsar (on the paper, not in reality)

So why not making it so, that there is only a cooldown to AoE ablities and leave single target spells alone ? Surge is a tragedy. AT LEAST give us back the 40 seconds duration to Power Surge. Entropy is so much better, Surge deserves something.

technohic

I'm not sure whether this thread is about damage shield stacking in general or just about sorcs now. If sorcs rely so heavily on damage shields, there must be something terribly wrong with the class.

Dracane

technohic wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this thread is about damage shield stacking in general or just about sorcs now. If sorcs rely so heavily on damage shields, there must be something terribly wrong with the class.

But Sorcerer DOES rely on them.
A Sorcerer does not need shield stacking. I am Sorc and only use conjured ward. it's down in no time and I am facing the death very often. But if I concentrate, I can keep it up and it's fine.

I only want to prevent ZoS from doing a big mistake and nerfing Conjured Ward or single wards in general. Single Wards are totally easy to destroy.
If we can believe what was said in this thread, shield stacking is something, ZoS is looking at. So we'll see.

The question of the day should be: "Why in Auri-El's name is the PTS still online at the moment ?" There should be another patch today or tomorrow in my opinion

TheBull

technohic wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this thread is about damage shield stacking in general or just about sorcs now. If sorcs rely so heavily on damage shields, there must be something terribly wrong with the class.

Who the hell wouldn't "rely" on ward? Cheap, non critable, non procable, non-ult building "effective health". It's an incredible button. Hmmm no wonder they rely on it

technohic

TheBull wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this thread is about damage shield stacking in general or just about sorcs now. If sorcs rely so heavily on damage shields, there must be something terribly wrong with the class.

Who the hell wouldn't "rely" on ward? Cheap, non critable, non procable, non-ult building "effective health". It's an incredible button. Hmmm no wonder they rely on it

I guess that would really be my point. If it is so powerful and at the same time, the only saving grace to a sorc, it probably needs adjusted at the same time sorcs need to be adjusted..

Personally; I think everything should still proc (crut and ultimat, etc) when hitting a damage shield as you are still doing damage, just to the shield rather than the player, but I don't think shields themselves as far as the protection they provide are too horrible if they are as easily broken as they appear.

AriBoh

technohic wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this thread is about damage shield stacking in general or just about sorcs now. If sorcs rely so heavily on damage shields, there must be something terribly wrong with the class.

But the point is most players (not just sorc players) are now putting 2-3 shields up at once and gaining effectively a 2nd health bar. One immune to proc effects.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Snit wrote: »

Shields shouldn't stack. Just make it so only one shield (the strongest) can be active at a time.

Exactly. Treat shields like the new buff system, and scale them off health like someone else said.

Fenris

I dont think shield stacking is an issue. If someone wants to run 3 shields on their bar, they get limited to two attacks. This seems to be a fair trade-off. I also dont have a problem with a shield scaling off of a normally offensive stat (magicka) or whatnot. Lots of games give a defensive ability that scales off an offensive stat, particularly to give the offensive character some defense if its too squishy. I do think that the amount of shield per point of magicka may be too high though. A shield scaling off offense should never be equal to a shield scaling off defense. IE, 1 health point gives 1 shield point, maybe 3 magicka points gives 1 shield point?

For the magicka based shield, if it is going to be a 1:1 ratio like HP shields, give it a mechanic like every other mana shield in every other game. You can use your mana pool to shield your HP pool, BUT IT DRAINS YOUR MANA based on damage taken. That mechanic gives the super mage some defense, but he sacrifices his offense in order to gain that survivability.

If shields can crit, we should be able to crit shields. If not, then we should not either.
Dots need to damage shields continuously.

Most importantly, the healing debuff situation not effecting shields. I have no problem with this, HOWEVER, there needs to be a "debuff" that is specific for shield destroying in exchange. If shields are the new meta for survival, there need abilities that have a "does 300% damage versus shields" or "ignore shields" or "drains magicka of targets with active shields" or something of that nature. Give us a spell/ability that is sub-par in damage versus a normal target, but significantly stronger than normal in power vs shields to keep the rock paper scissors game going. It would give us a checks and balance - if the population that spams shields goes up, the population that has those abilities on their bars will go up. Rock - Paper - Scissors type mechanics are a must in massive PVP games in order to keep the general population in balance.

Shielding character geats beaten by shield busters or high CC dps
Shield busters get beaten by glass cannons
glass cannons get beaten by tanks or shielders
High CC dps gets beaten by purging healers or tanks
Tanks get beaten by shielders
healers generally get wrecked without support, but add major strength to others.


Tanks that spam shields while a healer keeps them alive need to just be ignored, as they should be nearly incapable of dealing damage.

Maulkin

TheBull wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this thread is about damage shield stacking in general or just about sorcs now. If sorcs rely so heavily on damage shields, there must be something terribly wrong with the class.

Who the hell wouldn't "rely" on ward? Cheap, non critable, non procable, non-ult building "effective health". It's an incredible button. Hmmm no wonder they rely on it

Hmm they also get 1/3 of the damage mitigation (spell or physical) medium users get to have. So ofc they would rely on shields more.

That said, I do agree that everything needs to proc on the shields, as I've already said.

Snit

technohic wrote: »

If sorcs rely so heavily on damage shields, there must be something terribly wrong with the class.

Someone else coined the term "Walnut Builds," which applies here.

The "what's wrong" is really "what's different." The primary difference is that Critical Surge, our best class heal, had its healing cut somewhere between 40 - 80%, depending on the situation. It was great, especially for AoE. Now it's awful.

Combine that with the nerf to light armor mitigation, which makes investing in health a dubious proposition anyway. We get a lot less time-to-live out of each health point than do stamina builds in medium (I'm not counting heavy, as I don't think it will be too popular).

So, sorcs can no longer tank a bit of damage with their health bar, relying on Crit Surge to keep them up. Damage now sorcs exponentially harder, and they can't heal it anyway. Thus, the all-or-nothing reliance on magicka and shields. If you're taking damage at all, you're right on the edge of death.

Maulkin

Snit wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

If sorcs rely so heavily on damage shields, there must be something terribly wrong with the class.

Someone else coined the term "Walnut Builds," which applies here.

The "what's wrong" is really "what's different." The primary difference is that Critical Surge, our best class heal, had its healing cut somewhere between 40 - 80%, depending on the situation. It was great, especially for AoE. Now it's awful.

Combine that with the nerf to light armor mitigation, which makes investing in health a dubious proposition anyway. We get a lot less time-to-live out of each health point than do stamina builds in medium (I'm not counting heavy, as I don't think it will be too popular).

So, sorcs can no longer tank a bit of damage with their health bar, relying on Crit Surge to keep them up. Damage now sorcs exponentially harder, and they can't heal it anyway. Thus, the all-or-nothing reliance on magicka and shields. If you're taking damage at all, you're right on the edge of death.

^ Spot on

When you have no heals and having HP offers no advantage (over shields) because you get no damage mitigation from light armor anyway, i's obvious you are going to rely on shields.

Ezareth

There are a couple things currently broken with shields that need fixed but the workings and the concepts of damage shields in their current state are fine.

Shield "Stacking" really doesn't offer some overwhelming or OP benefit as *everything* has a tradeoff.

A sorc using Healing Ward has sacrificed more useful weapons for this single ability. With the way health currently works right now, the sorc rarely receives the bonus offered by the ward as letting his health drop at all is death. In live, I often wait until I'm at half health or so before refreshing my shields just so I can kick in the healing ward bonus. When at full health healing ward is simply too expensive to cast.

Harness Magicka right now is a mixed bag. It can be stacked effectively with Conjured ward thus absorbing a very large amount of magick damage and returning more magicka than it costs to cast as long as 3 magick casts hit *any* shield before it dies and only then if you're wearing full Light Armor. In Medium or heavy Armor it is far too expensive.

Conjured ward is a Sorc's primary defense. You currently receive something close to 1extra shield strength per 2-3 magicka points(Depending on other bonuses), it isn't even close to 1 to 1.

As was mentioned earlier, people running 3 shields have limited offensive capabilities due to the limited number of skills we can use. Fragments in 1.6 is almost a must and then you need your "staple" damage spell that is used to proc fragments. For me that is Mage's wrath, for others that is Crushing Shock or other repeatable spells. Most of us will also require a Mages guild ability for Empower (Either magelight or Entropy). Due to crappy weapon swapping delay most Sorcs are still running with Bolt Escape on both bars as getting hit while in your off bar and having to wait to swap weapons before you can bolt away is a death sentence.

There are really only two things that need fixed with shields currently:

1. Ultimate needs to generate on any light/heavy attack done to a shield
2. Dots and negative status effects need to be able to be applied through shields and do damage to them

Shields being unable to be crit is fine as otherwise critical damage becomes far too powerful and the TTK of players decreases even further. Shields give a sorc a chance to create a defense that isn't based off of physical armor which is the way it should be.

As it stands there are plenty of *single* player builds that can tear through the shields of a sorc as fast as he can stack them and on live this just isn't the case.
If no one could make a build that could destroy a min/max shield stacker then I'd agree there was a problem but this just isn't the case.

Dracane

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

There are a couple things currently broken with shields that need fixed but the workings and the concepts of damage shields in their current state are fine.

Shield "Stacking" really doesn't offer some overwhelming or OP benefit as *everything* has a tradeoff.

A sorc using Healing Ward has sacrificed more useful weapons for this single ability. With the way health currently works right now, the sorc rarely receives the bonus offered by the ward as letting his health drop at all is death. In live, I often wait until I'm at half health or so before refreshing my shields just so I can kick in the healing ward bonus. When at full health healing ward is simply too expensive to cast.

Harness Magicka right now is a mixed bag. It can be stacked effectively with Conjured ward thus absorbing a very large amount of magick damage and returning more magicka than it costs to cast as long as 3 magick casts hit *any* shield before it dies and only then if you're wearing full Light Armor. In Medium or heavy Armor it is far too expensive.

Conjured ward is a Sorc's primary defense. You currently receive something close to 1extra shield strength per 2-3 magicka points(Depending on other bonuses), it isn't even close to 1 to 1.

As was mentioned earlier, people running 3 shields have limited offensive capabilities due to the limited number of skills we can use. Fragments in 1.6 is almost a must and then you need your "staple" damage spell that is used to proc fragments. For me that is Mage's wrath, for others that is Crushing Shock or other repeatable spells. Most of us will also require a Mages guild ability for Empower (Either magelight or Entropy). Due to crappy weapon swapping delay most Sorcs are still running with Bolt Escape on both bars as getting hit while in your off bar and having to wait to swap weapons before you can bolt away is a death sentence.

There are really only two things that need fixed with shields currently:

1. Ultimate needs to generate on any light/heavy attack done to a shield
2. Dots and negative status effects need to be able to be applied through shields and do damage to them

Shields being unable to be crit is fine as otherwise critical damage becomes far too powerful and the TTK of players decreases even further. Shields give a sorc a chance to create a defense that isn't based off of physical armor which is the way it should be.

As it stands there are plenty of *single* player builds that can tear through the shields of a sorc as fast as he can stack them and on live this just isn't the case.
If no one could make a build that could destroy a min/max shield stacker then I'd agree there was a problem but this just isn't the case.

I agree so far, besides point number 2. DoT's ignoring shields ? You can't be serious, this is not a good change.
I agree to the rest though.

Ezareth

Dracane wrote: »

I agree so far, besides point number 2. DoT's ignoring shields ? You can't be serious, this is not a good change.
I agree to the rest though.

Not sure if you read that wrong or I wasn't clear but I said that DoT's should be able to hit shields not be negated by them as is the case in PTS.

Dracane

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I agree so far, besides point number 2. DoT's ignoring shields ? You can't be serious, this is not a good change.
I agree to the rest though.

Not sure if you read that wrong or I wasn't clear but I said that DoT's should be able to hit shields not be negated by them as is the case in PTS.

I got your wrong then, forgive me Stormking (or however your name on YouTube was) Because DoT's don't proc on shields currently ? I'm not sure, because I'm not using any.

I understood, that DoT's should completely ignore shields. But this way it's okay

Maulkin

Dracane wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I agree so far, besides point number 2. DoT's ignoring shields ? You can't be serious, this is not a good change.
I agree to the rest though.

Not sure if you read that wrong or I wasn't clear but I said that DoT's should be able to hit shields not be negated by them as is the case in PTS.

I got your wrong then, forgive me Stormking (or however your name on YouTube was) Because DoT's don't proc on shields currently ? I'm not sure, because I'm not using any.

I understood, that DoT's should completely ignore shields. But this way it's okay

Currently some DoTs don't proc on shields. Meaning they don't reduce the shield's health nor the players. They just don't tick.

That's bad design.

Snit

I think everyone* agrees that DoT's should tic on shields, and that shields should not stop ultimate generation.

*there may be someone itching to point out that 'shields should not bleed,' but the same logic would not apply to burns, shock, etc, and separating them might be needlessly complex.

Maulkin

Snit wrote: »

I think everyone* agrees that DoT's should tic on shields, and that shields should not stop ultimate generation.

*there may be someone itching to point out that 'shields should not bleed,' but the same logic would not apply to burns, shock, etc, and separating them might be needlessly complex.

I think Bleeds are already severely handicapped compared to other DoTs and it doesn't even make rational sense. Like Fire Atros (that are literally made of fire) are taking damage from fire DoTs but of course they are too cool to Bleed right?

For the sake of balance all DoTs should behave the same. And bleeds should apply on shields too imo.

Also, one of the first tests I did when my DK char copied over was on the Searing Strike skill and its morphs. Well, I found that with the stamina morph (Unstable Flame) you can block the DoT, which means reducing the damage of the ticks at the expense of stamina. Like Caltrops currently behave on live.

On the other hand, the magicka morph DoT was not mitigated by block nor would it drain stamina. You'd just take steady damage, unless you Purged.

That's very odd and inconsistent behavior between skills morphs. In the heat of battle you wouldn't know which DoT was applied and whether you should refrain from blocking or not.

Ezareth

Snit wrote: »

I think everyone* agrees that DoT's should tic on shields, and that shields should not stop ultimate generation.

*there may be someone itching to point out that 'shields should not bleed,' but the same logic would not apply to burns, shock, etc, and separating them might be needlessly complex.

I think a "Bleed" effect by very definition would need to first pierce shields before being able to apply such an effect but as I know next to nothing about playing a melee class I'm fine with whatever definition is most balanced.

For sure a "burning" effect or any other elemental effect could and should work on a shield as well as a character. I'm not sure that healing debuffs should be applied through shields or not. In live holding block would ensure that this could not be applied to you when you blocked it.

In PTS now holding block is just not possible for a Sorc. Either way I think various stuns and any real CC should work fine through shields. The rest can be balanced with time after we actually get some *real* PvP in to be able to remark intelligently on the changes.

I think most people tend to not understand that Zeni basically completely reset the balance of the game back to square one with 1.6. Instead of trying to make assumptions based upon a mix of pre-1.6 experience and 1.6 situational testing, we should only focus on fixing the most obvious of issues and let the true "balance" changes be worked out over the minor patches sure to be released quickly post 1.6

OtarTheMad

EsORising wrote: »

Sorry to be the noob here but what is shield stacking exactly? What skills combine does it? I'm confused about the whole thread. Can anyone explain this in lamin terms with skill names.

People can run multiple shields on a bar and they all kind of work as one mega shield.

For example. I could go on my Sorcerer and cast Hardened Ward, Harness Magicka and Bound Aegis and be a pretty tough kill even though I am in Light Armor.

Nightreaver

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, for the 100th time it is not a "sorc issue".

For the 100th time it is not just about PvP.
Though I do find it extremely interesting that Shields never seemed to be an issue until it became so popular with Sorcerers.

DDuke wrote: »

And no one is saying "remove all damage shields".

And no one is saying there shouldn't be changes made. But Viable options must be considered and everyone has a right to offer suggestions toward that goal. This whole issue between you and me began when @Snit offered some solutions which you quickly tore apart.
You start by telling us how much more useful Surge is in PvP then immediately tell us it isn't usable.
You tell us to start thinking outside the box while at the same time telling us people in Light Armor shouldn't be able to tank or melee.
You say you want balance...but only when it benefits you. You think Medium and Heavy Armor wearers should be able to fill all roles while those in Light should be restricted to Ranged DPS.
Your justification for why Light Armor has such poor physical and spell mitigation in 1.6 is because of the way something was in 1.5.
You try and convince us how much better Surge is in 1.6 while at the same time claiming that Shields are "must haves".

DDuke wrote: »

50% crit reduction requires 5 pieces of Construct set (Impenetrable on all parts) & tons of Champion Points in crit dmg reduction. and you can get your crit reduction back up (requires some Champion Points).

You can lower Crit damage with just one point in Champion. Where is the option to assign points to increase Crit chance? You mean that passive that requires 30 points and increases your Crit chance by 12%? Raising the Crit chance of someone with 30% Crit chance to what? 33% Woo Hoo Back up to half.

DDuke wrote: »

I don't know what you're trying to say here. It takes 100 Champion Points to max crit dmg reduction.

And where do I assign Champion Points for Crit Chance? Oh wait, there isn't one.

DDuke wrote: »

Your class healing ability is 100% dependent on people not slotting any dmg shield, I don't think you should concern yourself about not having enough Champion Points yet.

Sorry, wrong answer again, thanks for playing.
Whether I am in PvE or PvP Surge is 100% dependent on getting a crit to proc a heal. If I don't get a crit then whether or not the target has a shield is completely irrelevant. The ability doesn't first check to see if there is a shield up and THEN check to see if the ability crit.
I'm also betting that the chance of ZOS allowing crits to hit Shields is MUCH greater than the chance that ZOS will remove any chance of lowering Crit damage.

DDuke wrote: »

Sorc damage was increased significantly. Have you tested things at all in PTS?

Yes. Have you played a Sorcerer on PTS?
Playing a character copied from Live and making no changes I am not seeing the *significant increase* to our abilities themselves. It is only through min/maxing am I able to achieve this *significant increase*. An option that is available to all classes.
And no I have not yet been able to test comparison but would very much like to see how DPS between DKs, NBs, Sorcs and Templars would all compare if they were all wearing Light Armor with min/maxed builds. My guess that on an even playing field that Sorcerers would be no better.

DDuke wrote: »

I understand you'd like full health every time you hit your opponent, but that's not really balanced.
Yes, you get zero healing at the moment on Live, and you get 40-50% in PTS. Not really that close to zero come to think of it.

I may have to check my math but I'm pretty sure 40-50% is closer to zero than to 100%.
And It's not even that high.
1) Crit Chance has been reduced in 1.6 so just the chance of getting any heal is only half of what it is on Live.
2) Surge doesn't scale for Magicka builds, it remains at 40%.
3) In 1.6 the damage from a Crit can be reduced lowering that number even further.
4) In 1.6 the number of heals possible from Surge compared to Live is divided by the number of targets it hits. Again lowering the amount it heals.
5) ANY CD further reduces the healing effectiveness of Surge.
6) Any DOTs further reduce the healing effectiveness of Surge.

Getting closer to zero all the time

DDuke wrote: »

A 40% heal on Crystal Frag burst means you're getting a heal equal to Templar BoL or GDB while dealing damage.
If this isn't enough for you, well... I don't know what to tell you.

And if you can't tell the difference between two instant cast abilities that have a guaranteed 100% chance of hitting and one that only has a small percentage chance of hitting off one specific ability with no other damaging abilites active AND WITH a cast time.....well then I don't know what to tell you.

DDuke wrote: »

So you can't be unkillable while AoEing, like the good old batswarm DKs in launch? Such a tragedy...

Do you just put random words together and hope it sounds impressive?
You asked how Surge heals were reduced. I explained. You then respond with some rambling about a completely different class using a completely unrelated ability that is available to everyone. Are you suggesting that the answer to balancing Surge is through making changes to DKs using Batswarm?

DDuke wrote: »

The cooldown is 0,25 seconds. That's one quarter of a second.
I'm sure you can learn to time your DPS around the DoT tick (should be familiar concept if you've played other MMOs). That requires some skill atleast which is a welcome change. Or you can, you know, choose not to play with DoTs if this is too difficult for you.

Burning Affliction is a DOT that is procced by the ability. IT IS NOT CAST Separately. You are only displaying your complete lack of comprehension. If the topic is too difficult for you, you can, you know, choose not to participate.

DDuke wrote: »

You think they should prevent crits, while you complain about Surge being weak. Hilarious stuff, keep it coming.

You misunderstood, I feel abilities should crit on shields, not be prevented by shields.

DDuke wrote: »

Everyone has to adapt in 1.6, regardless of class.
People here are simply reporting what abilities are broken & out of balance.

And here's where it gets interesting.
If your class is doing better than another class in one aspect then that is a sign that the other class needs to adapt.
But if another class is doing better than your class in one aspect then that is a sign that it is broken and out of balance.

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think anyone is claiming dmg shields are a problem in PvE.

But changes made in PvP may also affect PvE which in turn could cause problems and has in the past. Therefore PvE must still be considered when considering any changes to PvP.

DDuke wrote: »

There's no such thing as "Light Armor Tanking".
In which other (MMO)RPG did you tank people in pyjamas?
Light Armour is meant to be squishy & take more damage, meaning you aren't meant to "tank" people.
Instead, enjoy having more heals & direct burst damage at your disposal, as well as more mobility in form of things like Bolt Escape or Cloak & more overall utility (since you're able to cast more spells in light armour).

The Holy Trinity of MMOs consists of Tanking, Healing and DPS. If one type of build must be excluded from one role then for the intent of balance all other builds must be excluded from a role as well.
If there is no such thing as "Light Armor Tanking" then there can be no such thing as "Heavy Armor DPS".
If "Light Armour is meant to be squishy & take more damage, meaning you aren't meant to "tank" people. " then Heavy Armor is meant to be slow and cumbersome meaning you aren't meant to "DPS" people.
There, now it's balanced.

DDuke wrote: »

When 75% of people use these shields, there is a problem with diversity.

Agreed.
But then maybe, just maybe the problem isn't that the Sorcerer shield is so good but rather that our other options are so poor in comparison.

DDuke wrote: »

And for the last time, no one is asking for "removal of your Shield".
If an ability prevents crits from happening, weapon enchantments & ability charges from generating, ulti from generating, while shielding you from more damage than even most ultimates can deal & being spammable forever, there is a problem.

And for the last time, no one is saying there are not changes that should be made. Just not to the point where Sorcerers can no longer compete with the Survivability of other classes.

TheBull

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

1. Ultimate needs to generate on any light/heavy attack done to a shield
2. Dots and negative status effects need to be able to be applied through shields and do damage to them

Shields being unable to be crit is fine as otherwise critical damage becomes far too powerful and the TTK of players decreases even further. Shields give a sorc a chance to create a defense that isn't based off of physical armor which is the way it should be.

As it stands there are plenty of *single* player builds that can tear through the shields of a sorc as fast as he can stack them and on live this just isn't the case.
If no one could make a build that could destroy a min/max shield stacker then I'd agree there was a problem but this just isn't the case.

I strongly disagree that not being able to crit on shields is ok. No class should have a button that makes them immune to crits.

It's game breaking. It renders two entire stat lines useless, crit and crit resist with the press of an inexpensive button.