About Shield Stacking

Derra · February 2015

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer

DKs have no real class gap closer (I know chains is there but it hardly does the same job) and Dual Wield has no range or gap closer.

DW: Flying blade does the same dmg as crushing shock and is 36m range in pvp.
DK: Chains is bugged currently but once it´s working as intended it will function either as a pull or a gap closer...

Sharee · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

Except that stamina characters have not to make this decision as their damage mitigation comes from dodgeroll and not shields.

Let's make shields prevent you from using any abilities while the shield protects you.

Then shields will work like a dodge roll.

AriBoh · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer

DKs have no real class gap closer (I know chains is there but it hardly does the same job) and Dual Wield has no range or gap closer.

DW: Flying blade does the same dmg as crushing shock and is 36m range in pvp.
DK: Chains is bugged currently but once it´s working as intended it will function either as a pull or a gap closer...

Fair enough.

Derra · February 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Except that stamina characters have not to make this decision as their damage mitigation comes from dodgeroll and not shields.

Let's make shields prevent you from using any abilities while the shield protects you.

Then shields will work like a dodge roll.

I´m under the impression that shields require the animation to be casted. You can do dmg in the meantime - effectively locking a player into shield casting (only possible with stamina builds because harness magica is bullcrap).

Shields are easier to use than dodgerolls nothing to argue there (preemptive vs. reactive use). However saying that stamina builds sacrifice defense when going "glass" cannon is not entirely correct.

Varicite · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

How do you want sorcs to stay alive?

The same way you expect NBs to?

Please quit using this same old bs rhetoric as some kind of excuse when there are other classes that have been doing it since beta.

Xsorus · February 2015

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer

DKs have no real class gap closer (I know chains is there but it hardly does the same job) and Dual Wield has no range or gap closer.

DW: Flying blade does the same dmg as crushing shock and is 36m range in pvp.
DK: Chains is bugged currently but once it´s working as intended it will function either as a pull or a gap closer...

Fair enough.

Flying Blades in no way is remotely close to Crushing Shock..Don't let him fool you.

And Chains will never be a viable Gap Closer in this game.

Solanum · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

Shields should scale off health.

This way a player can choose between having decent survivability and somewhat limited damage potential. Or they could go for full glass cannon mode, playing a high risk but high damage dealing character.

It's the same choice stamina characters have to make really.

Except that stamina characters have not to make this decision as their damage mitigation comes from dodgeroll and not shields.
Problem most stamina players have is they are to stupid to dodge and shields are a million times easier to use. A good dodgeroll will prevent more dmg than a shield though (Edit: Since most players are to dumb to understand this - dodging 8k CF + 5k CS + 1.3 light attack is more than shields can do for you atm).

Edit: And stamina chars got a super effective heal added that is not tied to specific weapon use! I admit that it takes a little effort to get.

This heal which requires a little amount of effort doesn't prevent crits from happening, doesn't prevent your opponent from regenerating ultimate, and misses out on quite a few other perks shields tend to have.

Also, what again keeps the shield stacking sorcerer from dodgerolling? Absolutely nothing. Though I admit, you can't really nuke someone while having the dodgeroll active, unlike with shields!

Problem is, most magicka users are to fond of their benefits to hold a honest discussion. (lame generalization, like the utterly *** remark that stamina users would be to dumb to dodgeroll.)

Xsorus · February 2015

Ace_SiN wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The fact that you can't figure out that while 1v1 will never be fully balanced, you can actually make it somewhat reasonably balanced without having super overpowered present. Right now shields are super overpowered... Anyone who's not a fool sorc knows this... They need to fix the issues present though before they nerf shields, but pretending shields are fine because you died to multiple people hitting you once is moronic and hilariously bad logic.

You can also make 1v1 reasonably balanced without blindly nerfing skills, based only on 1v1 duel results. I've never once said "shields are fine". That's you blindly assuming I mean one thing, when I've made my stand clear multiple times already.

Who said anything about blindly nerfing skills? Its been pretty damn specific what needs to be fixed. Also if you don't think Shields are fine, then why are you blindly defending them by saying they're perfectly fine because 1v1 pvp can never be remotely balanced (which is horseshit like I said)

Shields are overpowered right now, In multiple settings. Shields aren't magically fine because sometimes the Sorc dies to multiple people assisting...

There is multiple things they should fix before they nerf shields, Such as Dots not working on shields, the ultimate gain, weapon enchants not proccing ect ect. Fix those issues, and then examine if Shields are overpowered still, If they are..Make the current 3 not currently scaled by HP to be scaled by HP. This would mean that Sorcs who want to have shields will have to put actual points into HP instead of ignoring it completely.

Do those things, instead of throwing your hands up in the air and saying "Derp we can't balance 1v1, so why bother Derp"

Snit · February 2015

You can't balance classes around one aspect of one part of the content. One vs One in PvP is important, but so is every other aspect of the game.

Players doing trials, veteran dungeons or solo PvE, for example, are not going to optimize the same way as what are essentially dueling builds. And while we're all focused like a laser on how our favorite class performs in our preferred content, I hope ZOS takes a wider view.

Derra · February 2015

Solanum wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

Shields should scale off health.

This way a player can choose between having decent survivability and somewhat limited damage potential. Or they could go for full glass cannon mode, playing a high risk but high damage dealing character.

It's the same choice stamina characters have to make really.

Except that stamina characters have not to make this decision as their damage mitigation comes from dodgeroll and not shields.
Problem most stamina players have is they are to stupid to dodge and shields are a million times easier to use. A good dodgeroll will prevent more dmg than a shield though (Edit: Since most players are to dumb to understand this - dodging 8k CF + 5k CS + 1.3 light attack is more than shields can do for you atm).

Edit: And stamina chars got a super effective heal added that is not tied to specific weapon use! I admit that it takes a little effort to get.

This heal which requires a little amount of effort doesn't prevent crits from happening, doesn't prevent your opponent from regenerating ultimate, and misses out on quite a few other perks shields tend to have.

Also, what again keeps the shield stacking sorcerer from dodgerolling? Absolutely nothing. Though I admit, you can't really nuke someone while having the dodgeroll active, unlike with shields!

Problem is, most magicka users are to fond of their benefits to hold a honest discussion. (lame generalization, like the utterly *** remark that stamina users would be to dumb to dodgeroll.)

The thing keeping a magica user from dodgerolling quite frankly is his stamina that is gone after two dodgerolls. The following cc would be your inevitable death (because if your shields are strong you have 20k hp and wrecking blow or snipe will hit for 10k+ on light armor).

I´ve stated on various occasions that you should be able to procc weapon enchants, generate ultimate and other secondary effects on shields (this shouldn´t even be part of the discussion - effects not proccing on shields is nonsense)
I also don´t think you should be able to stack shields.

Further i don´t think you should be able to crit shields and here is why: Shields have to damage mitigation. You are not able to critically cast shields. Crit is diabled for the attacker and caster of the shield.
Either make it be able to crit for both sides or for none as it is now.

Edit: I know the dodgeroll part was a not so nice generalisation. However it happens on a regular basis that i encounter stam users that start to dodgeroll up to ten times in a row when they are low on health. This is the wrong use of the mechanic imho. If you time it right and use reactively throughout the whole fight it becomes a strong defensive mechanic!

Derra · February 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer

DKs have no real class gap closer (I know chains is there but it hardly does the same job) and Dual Wield has no range or gap closer.

DW: Flying blade does the same dmg as crushing shock and is 36m range in pvp.
DK: Chains is bugged currently but once it´s working as intended it will function either as a pull or a gap closer...

Fair enough.

Flying Blades in no way is remotely close to Crushing Shock..Don't let him fool you.

And Chains will never be a viable Gap Closer in this game.

Chains is bugged. Should they get it to work it seems fine as a gap closer for me?

Flying blade has a 50% snare and deals slightly more damage than crushing shock. Flying Blade:5100 dmg at 27k stam and 2400 weapon power compared to Crushing shock: 4800 dmg @ 27k mag 2400 spellpower.
How is that not close or comparable @xsorusb14_ESO?

DeathDealer19 · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

Shields shouldn't stack. Just make it so only one shield (the strongest) can be active at a time.

this says it best. still ridiculous when you get a sorc with 30k magicka throwing on a shield that youll never hope to damage through. And even if you do, they have enough magicka to literally blink across tamriel

Solanum · February 2015

Perhaps you can't dodgeroll as often as a dedicated stamina user. But your dodgeroll is just as effective as that of anyone else. You can't claim the same about a stamina user casting a shield.

Aside from not being able to cast it as often, it would be absolutely worthless. Funny thing is, that if damage shields scaled off health a stamina user would be able to use it exactly as well as you can dodgeroll. Not very often, but still just as effectively.

I am in fact very comfortable with some of the benefits shields have (including the ability to avoid critical hits)

What I am not comfortable with the fact that shields grant as much mitigation as they do without sacrificing offensive power in the least.

If a glass cannon can mitigate as much damage as a tank, yet dish out three times as much damage, there is a balance issue.

Derra · February 2015

Solanum wrote: »

Perhaps you can't dodgeroll as often as a dedicated stamina user. But your dodgeroll is just as effective as that of anyone else. You can't claim the same about a stamina user casting a shield.

Aside from not being able to cast it as often, it would be absolutely worthless. Funny thing is, that if damage shields scaled off health a stamina user would be able to use it exactly as well as you can dodgeroll. Not very often, but still just as effectively.

I am in fact very comfortable with some of the benefits shields have (including the ability to avoid critical hits)

What I am not comfortable with the fact that shields grant as much mitigation as they do without sacrificing offensive power in the least.

If a glass cannon can mitigate as much damage as a tank, yet dish out three times as much damage, there is a balance issue.

The thing is: Shields of dks and templars scale of health (they can use their shields as stamina users to the same effect as magica users). These are also the classes that got some nice stamina morphs for their class skills. Sorc the class with a magica based shield got no nice stamina morphs (2 to be exact - one being a horrible channel the other a toggled ability - amazing).

You can dodgeroll as a magica user but it is not only limited if you do it more than once without a potion ready it is crippling your survivability because you wont be able to cc break.

Solanum · February 2015

I'm quite glad to hear the shields of DK's and templars scale off health, seems like a good system that balances survivability versus offensive power.

What is there against the idea of Sorcerer shields scaling off health as well? Or in general, any shield scaling from health?

Also off topic, I briefly glanced at the sorcerer skills, they seem like a lot of fun, even if one were to make a warrior. Bound Armaments, in combination with the stamina cost reduction seems like a solid base.

Anyway, back on subject, what would be a reason not to have shields scale of health?

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

glass cannons dont have health

Snit · February 2015

Solanum wrote: »

Anyway, back on subject, what would be a reason not to have shields scale of health?

You have to look at the overall classes, not just individual skills. Shield Scaling impacts both survivability and DPS. Here are the key factors impacting those in 1.6 for magicka-based sorcs:

- Our primary survival mechanism, Critical Surge, has been severely nerfed. We don't have a class heal comparable to what DK's and Templars have. Shields are now it
-Light Armor is now useless for mitigation. Rightly so, but this has a big impact on casters, emphasizing active defenses
- Sorc DPS is adequate, but only if we stack magicka. Almost all of the complaints are PvP-related, and thus don't take into account things like sustained DPS

In short, scaling the sorc class shield off magicka allows them to build decent survivability and damage. Scaling it off health makes them choose between the two. That doesn't make them a glass cannon, either. Sorc DPS is adequate, but it's hardly head-and-shoulders above what Templars and DK's output.

That isn't to say the current iteration is perfect. Sorc shields should scale off the higher of magicka or stamina, for example, to make them viable for stamina sorcs. Also, nobody should be stacking three kinds of shields, all at full effectiveness. Shields should not block ultimate gain. But you can't just cut our shields in half and expect the clanfear pet to tank folks in Cyrodil

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

so i watched a duel with a DK and there chain pull does pull them to the target, just not when shields are up.

DDuke · February 2015

This is getting hilarious...

Snit wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

Anyway, back on subject, what would be a reason not to have shields scale of health?

You have to look at the overall classes, not just individual skills. Shield Scaling impacts both survivability and DPS. Here are the key factors impacting those in 1.6 for magicka-based sorcs:

- Our primary survival mechanism, Critical Surge, has been severely nerfed. We don't have a class heal comparable to what DK's and Templars have. Shields are now it

For the very first time the skill is actually usable in PvP, and you're crying how it got "nerfed"? I fail to see logic.

Actually, scrap that. It won't be usable, you know why? Damage shields prevent crits (yes, they are actually hurting your very own class as well).

Snit wrote: »

-Light Armor is now useless for mitigation. Rightly so, but this has a big impact on casters, emphasizing active defenses

Light armour is now pretty much what medium is on live: squishy. Somehow, medium armour users have survived without spamming dmg shields / heals.
Go figure...

That said, I do agree more defensive skills should be added, just not in the form of more shields/heals (which should remain viable choices, but not "must haves").

Snit wrote: »

- Sorc DPS is adequate, but only if we stack magicka. Almost all of the complaints are PvP-related, and thus don't take into account things like sustained DPS

I'm quite certain every magicka DPS (not just sorcs) needs magicka/spell dmg to deal high damage, and sorc DPS actually got some pretty significant buffs in 1.6, along with the possibility of dealing more burst damage than most stamina builds. What more do you want? 90% dmg reduction? Flying dragon mount that destroys everyone?

Snit wrote: »

In short, scaling the sorc class shield off magicka allows them to build decent survivability and damage. Scaling it off health makes them choose between the two. That doesn't make them a glass cannon, either. Sorc DPS is adequate, but it's hardly head-and-shoulders above what Templars and DK's output.

Scaling the shield off magicka allows you to build an unkillable character that also has access to some of the highest burst damage in the game. Crying about Sorc DPS clearly indicates you haven't done enough testing yet on PTS...

Snit wrote: »

That isn't to say the current iteration is perfect. Sorc shields should scale off the higher of magicka or stamina, for example, to make them viable for stamina sorcs. Also, nobody should be stacking three kinds of shields, all at full effectiveness. Shields should not block ultimate gain. But you can't just cut our shields in half and expect the clanfear pet to tank folks in Cyrodil

Why should you tank people in Cyrodiil? I don't think you're supposed to do that in light armour. You've got spells like Bolt Escape, which you can use for survivability & I'd like to see more added that aren't a dmg shield or a heal.

If you want to play a frontline fighter that tanks people, get some heavy armour.

Start thinking outside the box.

Nivzruo_ESO · February 2015

There is really only 1 shield causing all the fuss and that is the sorc ward. Just nerf it and be done with it.. sure all ur sorcs will rage quit but atleast the QQrs will be happy and we all know they matter most.

Thejollygreenone · February 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

There is really only 1 shield causing all the fuss and that is the sorc ward. Just nerf it and be done with it.. sure all ur sorcs will rage quit but atleast the QQrs will be happy and we all know they matter most.

I'm one of those 'QQrs' and I would most certainly not be happy. I'm not even a sorc.

Contrary to what you seem to think, many of thouse who are advocating for changing damage absorbs aren't asking for reckless quick fixes even remotely similar to what you just brought up.

Seriously hope your post was just some insanely cynical sarcasm.

Ace_SiN · February 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Who said anything about blindly nerfing skills? Its been pretty damn specific what needs to be fixed. Also if you don't think Shields are fine, then why are you blindly defending them by saying they're perfectly fine because 1v1 pvp can never be remotely balanced (which is horseshit like I said)

I'm amazed at how my simple words keep managing to go right over your head. Please go back and re-quote me where I said anything close to "Derp we can't balance 1v1, so why bother Derp".. Or, me saying "They're perfectly fine because 1v1 pvp can never be remotely balanced". Don't worry, I'll wait...

I just love how you say I "said", yet none of my posts even remotely reflect anything you posted. I never said 1v1 can never "remotely" be balanced. I said "perfect" 1v1 balance can never be achieved in this type of game. Which means some skills are ALWAYS going to be dominating in 1v1s. If it's not shield stacking, it's going to be something else. That doesn't mean we should remove shield stacking(as suggested multiple times on these boards), just because it's strong in x situation.

I don't get why you're off on some blind rant defending your cause like a fanboy, when I've only had a neutral stance this entire time. I'll make your job easier though and just post my original(and directed at no one specific) post that you decided to regurgitate on for whatever reason.

Ace_SiN wrote: »

This is what I would like to stop reading about.. People 1v1 duel all day and then come here and complain about balance... It's not possible for ESO to EVER be balanced around 1v1 without a complete rework to combat. The only game that achieves perfect balance for 1v1 are FPS games. Since a win is nearly 100% reliant on player skill(although map design can favor one side over the other).

This game can only be balanced around group play. I think a 3v3 or 5v5 is a good environment to aim for "balanced" gameplay. Personally I would like to see more group fight vids and feedback, less 1v1 dueling results.

Again, it wasn't directed at any one individual, so it was some pretty up in the air statements about what I keep reading on the forums. I didn't quote anyone and say "You're so wrong. Balance is great in x situation, so lets ignore 1v1 completely".

Nightreaver · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

This is getting hilarious...

Yes, thank you for providing the humor.

DDuke wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

- Our primary survival mechanism, Critical Surge, has been severely nerfed. We don't have a class heal comparable to what DK's and Templars have. Shields are now it

For the very first time the skill is actually usable in PvP, and you're crying how it got "nerfed"? I fail to see logic. it

Then allow me to explain it to you. Going from a core class ability to an ability that is no longer worth taking up a slot on your ability bar would be considered to be a major nerf.
Crit chance (which the heals are dependent on has been lowered)

The amount of healing the Heal does has been lowered from 65% to 40% for Magicka builds

A CD was added to the Heal reducing heals to almost nothing.

The base ability now increases Weapon damage which does absolutely nothing for a Sorcerer using a Magicka build.
Power Surge adds Spell damage but also still includes Weapon damage which again, is useless to a Magicka build. I would MUCH rather trade the worthless weapon damage buff for the 50% increase in healing that the Stamina morph version gets.
They added a CD to the heal, this means:
1) That Crushing Shock so many are complaining about is now only getting 1/3 of the heals
2) An AOE hitting 6 targets now receives 1/6 of the heals
Unless of course the ST or AOE also contains DOTs.....in which case the healing is even lower.

DDuke wrote: »

Light armour is now pretty much what medium is on live: squishy. Somehow, medium armour users have survived without spamming dmg shields / heals.

Light armor on Live was even squishier than Medium but somehow Sorcerers also survived without spamming damage shields. Oh that's right, we had a heal back then.
Now in 1.6, in addition to making our heal useless, Medium has 3 times the Armor rating AND 3 times the Spell resistance of Light armor.

DDuke wrote: »

That said, I do agree more defensive skills should be added, just not in the form of more shields/heals (which should remain viable choices, but not "must haves").

When you reduce both the armor rating and spell resistance to a small fraction of other armor types AND remove the only class ability to heal themselves then yes, Shields become "must haves".

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

- Sorc DPS is adequate, but only if we stack magicka. Almost all of the complaints are PvP-related, and thus don't take into account things like sustained DPS

I'm quite certain every magicka DPS (not just sorcs) needs magicka/spell dmg to deal high damage, and sorc DPS actually got some pretty significant buffs in 1.6, along with the possibility of dealing more burst damage than most stamina builds. What more do you want? 90% dmg reduction? Flying dragon mount that destroys everyone?

What do I want?
A Magicka build with DPS that can compete with DKs and NBs while maintaining the Survivability they have while doing that DPS.

DDuke wrote: »

Scaling the shield off magicka allows you to build an unkillable character that also has access to some of the highest burst damage in the game. Crying about Sorc DPS clearly indicates you haven't done enough testing yet on PTS...

Unkillable? Clearly you haven't done enough testing yet on PTS. Might I suggest

DDuke wrote: »

Start thinking outside the box.

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

That isn't to say the current iteration is perfect. Sorc shields should scale off the higher of magicka or stamina, for example, to make them viable for stamina sorcs. Also, nobody should be stacking three kinds of shields, all at full effectiveness. Shields should not block ultimate gain. But you can't just cut our shields in half and expect the clanfear pet to tank folks in Cyrodil

Why should you tank people in Cyrodiil? I don't think you're supposed to do that in light armour. You've got spells like Bolt Escape, which you can use for survivability & I'd like to see more added that aren't a dmg shield or a heal.

LOL, so glad you saved the best laugh for last. So the class with over half a dozen abilities that return heals would like to see the Sorcerer with no Heal or damage shield.
@Snit actually offers some well thought-out alternatives. Using the pet doesn't imply Tanking. If a Sorcerer had no heals and no shields then the only means of defense left to him would be a pet that can draw aggro away from the Sorcerer, which CLEARLY would not work in PvP.

And my favorite part

DDuke wrote: »

Why should you tank people in Cyrodiil? I don't think you're supposed to do that in light armour.

Can I assume then that you also feel that people in Heavy armor aren't supposed to DPS and people in Medium armor should be somewhere in between?

Xsorus · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer

DKs have no real class gap closer (I know chains is there but it hardly does the same job) and Dual Wield has no range or gap closer.

DW: Flying blade does the same dmg as crushing shock and is 36m range in pvp.
DK: Chains is bugged currently but once it´s working as intended it will function either as a pull or a gap closer...

Fair enough.

Flying Blades in no way is remotely close to Crushing Shock..Don't let him fool you.

And Chains will never be a viable Gap Closer in this game.

Chains is bugged. Should they get it to work it seems fine as a gap closer for me?

Flying blade has a 50% snare and deals slightly more damage than crushing shock. Flying Blade:5100 dmg at 27k stam and 2400 weapon power compared to Crushing shock: 4800 dmg @ 27k mag 2400 spellpower.
How is that not close or comparable @xsorusb14_ESO?

Because you can weave Crushing Shock with Light Attacks, and any number of other abilities.

Xsorus · February 2015

Ace_SiN wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Who said anything about blindly nerfing skills? Its been pretty damn specific what needs to be fixed. Also if you don't think Shields are fine, then why are you blindly defending them by saying they're perfectly fine because 1v1 pvp can never be remotely balanced (which is horseshit like I said)

I'm amazed at how my simple words keep managing to go right over your head. Please go back and re-quote me where I said anything close to "Derp we can't balance 1v1, so why bother Derp".. Or, me saying "They're perfectly fine because 1v1 pvp can never be remotely balanced". Don't worry, I'll wait...

I just love how you say I "said", yet none of my posts even remotely reflect anything you posted. I never said 1v1 can never "remotely" be balanced. I said "perfect" 1v1 balance can never be achieved in this type of game. Which means some skills are ALWAYS going to be dominating in 1v1s. If it's not shield stacking, it's going to be something else. That doesn't mean we should remove shield stacking(as suggested multiple times on these boards), just because it's strong in x situation.

I don't get why you're off on some blind rant defending your cause like a fanboy, when I've only had a neutral stance this entire time. I'll make your job easier though and just post my original(and directed at no one specific) post that you decided to regurgitate on for whatever reason.

Ace_SiN wrote: »

This is what I would like to stop reading about.. People 1v1 duel all day and then come here and complain about balance... It's not possible for ESO to EVER be balanced around 1v1 without a complete rework to combat. The only game that achieves perfect balance for 1v1 are FPS games. Since a win is nearly 100% reliant on player skill(although map design can favor one side over the other).

This game can only be balanced around group play. I think a 3v3 or 5v5 is a good environment to aim for "balanced" gameplay. Personally I would like to see more group fight vids and feedback, less 1v1 dueling results.

Again, it wasn't directed at any one individual, so it was some pretty up in the air statements about what I keep reading on the forums. I didn't quote anyone and say "You're so wrong. Balance is great in x situation, so lets ignore 1v1 completely".

There, that wasn't so hard.

You make a post about people dueling 1v1 all the day and complaing about balance, say its not possible to be balanced, then proceed to say that we should balance around 3v3 and 5v5 gameplay....in a post about a shield stacking, Then you make another post right after that talking how people shouldn't blindly nerf things just because it effects 1v1 duels.

As for Shield stacking, I don't think most people are talking about that...I think most people want the bugs fixed, and when that's done if they're still overpowered, scale them off HP like they should be in the first place.

DDuke · February 2015

Nightreaver wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This is getting hilarious...

Yes, thank you for providing the humor.

DDuke wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

- Our primary survival mechanism, Critical Surge, has been severely nerfed. We don't have a class heal comparable to what DK's and Templars have. Shields are now it

For the very first time the skill is actually usable in PvP, and you're crying how it got "nerfed"? I fail to see logic. it

Then allow me to explain it to you. Going from a core class ability to an ability that is no longer worth taking up a slot on your ability bar would be considered to be a major nerf.
Crit chance (which the heals are dependent on has been lowered)

Crit chance was more or less 0% before 1.6, due to Impenetrable.
The ability had zero use.
So how did it get nerfed, I ask you?

Nightreaver wrote: »

The amount of healing the Heal does has been lowered from 65% to 40% for Magicka builds

The healing was zero % before in PvP.

Regardless, your damage has also been increased significantly, meaning that Crit Surge heals more or less the same amount as before (when you managed to proc it on someone not using dmg shield or Impenetrable).

Nightreaver wrote: »

A CD was added to the Heal reducing heals to almost nothing.

The CD is 0,25 seconds. Are you dealing damage every 0,25 seconds?

Nightreaver wrote: »

The base ability now increases Weapon damage which does absolutely nothing for a Sorcerer using a Magicka build.
Power Surge adds Spell damage but also still includes Weapon damage which again, is useless to a Magicka build. I would MUCH rather trade the worthless weapon damage buff for the 50% increase in healing that the Stamina morph version gets.
They added a CD to the heal, this means:
1) That Crushing Shock so many are complaining about is now only getting 1/3 of the heals
2) An AOE hitting 6 targets now receives 1/6 of the heals
Unless of course the ST or AOE also contains DOTs.....in which case the healing is even lower.

So you'd like an OP ability that makes you heal like GDB every time you deal damage, and when AoEing you'd like that to be even more. Right...

I'd like cloak to grant me permanent invisibility also, and +200% weapon damage, but I don't see that happening.

Nightreaver wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Light armour is now pretty much what medium is on live: squishy. Somehow, medium armour users have survived without spamming dmg shields / heals.

Light armor on Live was even squishier than Medium but somehow Sorcerers also survived without spamming damage shields. Oh that's right, we had a heal back then.
Now in 1.6, in addition to making our heal useless, Medium has 3 times the Armor rating AND 3 times the Spell resistance of Light armor.

And which heal would you be talking about? I hope you're not talking about Crit Surge, since that is useless on Live (do you even PvP?)
If you're talking about resto staff, everyone has access to it. In 1.6 as well.

But I understand, you'd like to be unkillable & tank 20 people in your pyjamas. Makes perfect sense.

Nightreaver wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

That said, I do agree more defensive skills should be added, just not in the form of more shields/heals (which should remain viable choices, but not "must haves").

When you reduce both the armor rating and spell resistance to a small fraction of other armor types AND remove the only class ability to heal themselves then yes, Shields become "must haves".

Nope, shields become "must haves" because they are too strong (which is the whole point of this thread).

Nightreaver wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

- Sorc DPS is adequate, but only if we stack magicka. Almost all of the complaints are PvP-related, and thus don't take into account things like sustained DPS

I'm quite certain every magicka DPS (not just sorcs) needs magicka/spell dmg to deal high damage, and sorc DPS actually got some pretty significant buffs in 1.6, along with the possibility of dealing more burst damage than most stamina builds. What more do you want? 90% dmg reduction? Flying dragon mount that destroys everyone?

What do I want?
A Magicka build with DPS that can compete with DKs and NBs while maintaining the Survivability they have while doing that DPS.

You've got it, you just need to figure out how to do it (tip: there's a skill in Mages Guild for awesome burst dmg).
Burst someone, bolt escape out, repeat. Not that hard, and doable even on live (before any 1.6 Sorc buffs).

Nightreaver wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Scaling the shield off magicka allows you to build an unkillable character that also has access to some of the highest burst damage in the game. Crying about Sorc DPS clearly indicates you haven't done enough testing yet on PTS...

Unkillable? Clearly you haven't done enough testing yet on PTS. Might I suggest

DDuke wrote: »

Start thinking outside the box.

I think this thread wouldn't exist if there wasn't a problem of unkillable shield spammers.

When you find me an ability that costs less and does more damage than a dmg shield grants, let me know.
Until then, anyone spamming shield will be unkillable if they want to.

Nightreaver wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

That isn't to say the current iteration is perfect. Sorc shields should scale off the higher of magicka or stamina, for example, to make them viable for stamina sorcs. Also, nobody should be stacking three kinds of shields, all at full effectiveness. Shields should not block ultimate gain. But you can't just cut our shields in half and expect the clanfear pet to tank folks in Cyrodil

Why should you tank people in Cyrodiil? I don't think you're supposed to do that in light armour. You've got spells like Bolt Escape, which you can use for survivability & I'd like to see more added that aren't a dmg shield or a heal.

LOL, so glad you saved the best laugh for last. So the class with over half a dozen abilities that return heals would like to see the Sorcerer with no Heal or damage shield.
@Snit actually offers some well thought-out alternatives. Using the pet doesn't imply Tanking. If a Sorcerer had no heals and no shields then the only means of defense left to him would be a pet that can draw aggro away from the Sorcerer, which CLEARLY would not work in PvP.

Actually, I use zero heals or dmg shields myself. If you want to see how well I do (when cloak works), click on the link in my signature.

The only reason you (Sorcerer) don't have a heal in 1.6, is because
a) dmg shields prevent Crit Surge from working

or

b) you refuse to slot resto staff

But you seem to think that a Sorc's life mission is to spam shields & summon pets.
Fine, I'll give you an example of a skill that could make pets provide more survivability without heals/shields:

"Soul Link (toggled) - 50% of damage taken by you is taken by your pet(s) instead"

Nightreaver wrote: »

And my favorite part

DDuke wrote: »

Why should you tank people in Cyrodiil? I don't think you're supposed to do that in light armour.

Can I assume then that you also feel that people in Heavy armor aren't supposed to DPS and people in Medium armor should be somewhere in between?

Not at all.

There is a RPG archetype for Heavy Armour called "Warrior", present in most other (MMO)RPGs. These characters are usually perfectly capable of being DPS, though they play a bit differently.
I'm all for making Heavy Armour viable for DPS, I'd love that in fact.
Perhaps something that converts damage taken into DPS? That'd fit the theme.

Alas, I'm no game developer, simply a consumer who wants a diverse & interesting game, not one where everyone spams dmg shields & heals to survive.

I'm happy you found my post entertaining.

Snit · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

I'm happy you found my post entertaining.

Everything about your posts says that your primary, or only concern is one vs one balance for top-end players running min-maxed specs in Cyrodil. I agree that is important. But it probably represents a very small percent of the overall time the player base spends in the game as a whole. You can't balance based solely, or even mostly on that.

I'm not going to try to convince you of the sorcerer point of view. You're not interested in it. Perhaps you'll at least acknowledge that different views exist, however, and they don't represent 'crying.'

I'm no game developer, either. Just a consumer who is tired of seeing ZOS nerf classes because a tiny percentage of dedicated, top-end PvP players complain loud and long on the forums.

Thejollygreenone · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I'm happy you found my post entertaining.

[snip]

I'm no game developer, either. Just a consumer who is tired of seeing ZOS nerf classes because a tiny percentage of dedicated, top-end PvP players complain loud and long on the forums.

What if it wasn't a nerf? What if I told you there was some possible way out there to change the importance of damage shields without actually nerfing any particular class and build?

This is what I've been asking for this whole time. So if that's all you're looking for, I think we can be on the same side here

DDuke · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I'm happy you found my post entertaining.

Everything about your posts says that your primary, or only concern is one vs one balance for top-end players running min-maxed specs in Cyrodil. I agree that is important. But it probably represents a very small percent of the overall time the player base spends in the game as a whole. You can't balance based solely, or even mostly on that.

I'm not going to try to convince you of the sorcerer point of view. You're not interested in it. Perhaps you'll at least acknowledge that different views exist, however, and they don't represent 'crying.'

I'm no game developer, either. Just a consumer who is tired of seeing ZOS nerf classes because a tiny percentage of dedicated, top-end PvP players complain loud and long on the forums.

Those "top end player min-max specs" are just as unbalanced in 1vX, as they are in 1v1.

If someone can tank multiple people while spamming dmg shields, while the person without them is dead in 5 seconds, how is that balanced?

Also, you'd be surprised how many people are "top-end players", considering 3/4 are using a dmg shield in PvP.

Only 7% of players are playing a pure DPS character:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/144002/do-you-have-a-heal-or-a-dmg-shield-slotted-on-your-hotbar/p1

I fall in that 7%, which by no means are "top-end players", as a "top-end player" would never intentionally gimp him/herself by not slotting these abilities.

I simply happen to care how I play the game & what kind of character I'm playing, rather than what is most effective due to broken game mechanics.

Quite the opposite of how you perceive me, eh?

So yeah, lets talk about diversity & whether those things might a bit too strong, considering most of the population are using them...

P.S. I have a Sorcerer (not a traditional one though), so I'm fully aware of the "Sorcerer PoV". I also know Sorcerers are pretty much the strongest class in PvP right now (when played by a skilled person).

Derra · February 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Don´t even mention teleport in the game where every class, except sorcs mind you, have a gap closer and every weapon set has either full range or a gap closer

DKs have no real class gap closer (I know chains is there but it hardly does the same job) and Dual Wield has no range or gap closer.

DW: Flying blade does the same dmg as crushing shock and is 36m range in pvp.
DK: Chains is bugged currently but once it´s working as intended it will function either as a pull or a gap closer...

Fair enough.

Flying Blades in no way is remotely close to Crushing Shock..Don't let him fool you.

And Chains will never be a viable Gap Closer in this game.

Chains is bugged. Should they get it to work it seems fine as a gap closer for me?

Flying blade has a 50% snare and deals slightly more damage than crushing shock. Flying Blade:5100 dmg at 27k stam and 2400 weapon power compared to Crushing shock: 4800 dmg @ 27k mag 2400 spellpower.
How is that not close or comparable @xsorusb14_ESO?

Because you can weave Crushing Shock with Light Attacks, and any number of other abilities.

Wow. You are the one in a million kind of special person

.