Heavy armor is so OP in 1.6

Xjcon

Sure give a huge movement penalty to heavy armor. But give anyone shot with a bow or hit with a sword who isn't in Heavy Armor huge damage or instant death. I mean if we want weight to be like it should be IRL then maybe we should let a crushing blow only be blockable by a person with heavy armor and a shield. Blocking a sword with a stick....well you get my point. Stop trying to base the way the game is around real world physics. It's a fantasy world......

Solanum

Xjcon wrote: »

Sure give a huge movement penalty to heavy armor. But give anyone shot with a bow or hit with a sword who isn't in Heavy Armor huge damage or instant death. I mean if we want weight to be like it should be IRL then maybe we should let a crushing blow only be blockable by a person with heavy armor and a shield. Blocking a sword with a stick....well you get my point. Stop trying to base the way the game is around real world physics. It's a fantasy world......

I agree with this.

If you want plate to realistically slow us down, I want those in cloth to realistically die from a single hit of a greatsword.

Daveheart

I like how our suggestions always seem to be to nerf something else. I'm glad heavy armor has been buffed, but the nerf to light armor is a bit too much, especially combined with the reduction to the health coefficient.

DisgracefulMind

For 1v1 duels, interestingly enough, I have found I prefer light armor still for my Dragonknight. I tried the heavy armor, but seeing as my playstyle requires the extensive use of magicka, I just didn't like how it felt. I feel more comfortable with the full light armor passives, and probably won't get rid of the sustain it gives to my resources. I've been working a nice balance and build out to conserve my stamina, and it's been working well. I dueled against a heavy armor Dragonknight, and though the duel was long, I still won in the end. I dueled against a few heavy armor + 2H dragonknights as well, and my build was still superior in the end. I plan to grind out some champion points to put more points into the spell resist increase passive so that I can make my light armor DK build even more viable.

With all this said, I will be wearing 5 heavy most likely when I do group play, because, after some testing with 3 piece heavy for group, I think it will be very viable for that. But from what I've seen, in duels, light armor is still superior to heavy, at least in the case of DKs.

hrothbern

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Light armor should give spell resist. and heavy should give resist to physical attks. I don't know why they would make your armor ratting and you spell resist the same. Heavy needed to be fixed but the spell resist doesn't make sense to me.

If light armor is the way to do more magical damage, generating many players doing that, AND light armor is the best way to defend against magical damage, many players wil do that

.... and before you know what happens everybody is wearing light armor

exactly what happened so far!!!

I do think however that light armor should be stronger on the offensive, otherwise too many go in heavy armor

Bouvin

Sharee wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

JLB wrote: »

Very good change, and about time heavy armor acted as a heavy armor. Well done @ZOS.

But it's not.

There's no movement penalty. No Dodge roll or Spring cost increase. No Stealth penalty.

So, really, it's not acting like heavy armor at all.

There is a penalty, it's just not called a penalty.

Compared to medium armor, both HA and LA have higher costs for dodge rolling, sneaking, and sprinting, and slower movement while sprinting.

It's called a bonus to medium armor, but really, the effect is the same as medium armor being the baseline and the other 2 having a penalty.

Ya, but dodge rolling, sprinting, and sneaking cost the same in LA as Heavy.

That makes no sense. Heavy needs additional penalties to balance it's advantage of extra protection.

Bouvin

Lynx7386 wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

The current system if fine WHEN a movement penalty is given to heavy armor. As long as a heavy can run around just as fast as a light...the system is broken.

A physically fit warrior in heavy armor should have no problem moving as fast as a frail old wizard in robes. Medium armor users are faster than both and nobody complains about it.

Think about what you're suggesting for a moment: do you really want the tank slowing down the entire group in a trials run just because they move at a snail's pace compared to everyone else?

Who says all Wizards are old and frail?

So now you're brining in Fitness and Age bonuses which don't exist in the game.

Also, when is the last time you wore 80-120 pounds in Plate? No, it isn't that easy to move in, even compared to some old dude in a robe.

Solanum

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

For 1v1 duels, interestingly enough, I have found I prefer light armor still for my Dragonknight. I tried the heavy armor, but seeing as my playstyle requires the extensive use of magicka, I just didn't like how it felt. I feel more comfortable with the full light armor passives, and probably won't get rid of the sustain it gives to my resources. I've been working a nice balance and build out to conserve my stamina, and it's been working well. I dueled against a heavy armor Dragonknight, and though the duel was long, I still won in the end. I dueled against a few heavy armor + 2H dragonknights as well, and my build was still superior in the end. I plan to grind out some champion points to put more points into the spell resist increase passive so that I can make my light armor DK build even more viable.

With all this said, I will be wearing 5 heavy most likely when I do group play, because, after some testing with 3 piece heavy for group, I think it will be very viable for that. But from what I've seen, in duels, light armor is still superior to heavy, at least in the case of DKs.

I'm glad that this is confirmed by a Dragonknight in light, though it is kind of to be expected

Resources are very very important for both offense and survivability. Aside from the armor and magick resistance plate offers very little.

If anything I believe plate still requires a major buff to come fully on par with the other two armors and be useful for more then just tanking PVE.

Sharee

Bouvin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

JLB wrote: »

Very good change, and about time heavy armor acted as a heavy armor. Well done @ZOS.

But it's not.

There's no movement penalty. No Dodge roll or Spring cost increase. No Stealth penalty.

So, really, it's not acting like heavy armor at all.

There is a penalty, it's just not called a penalty.

Compared to medium armor, both HA and LA have higher costs for dodge rolling, sneaking, and sprinting, and slower movement while sprinting.

It's called a bonus to medium armor, but really, the effect is the same as medium armor being the baseline and the other 2 having a penalty.

Ya, but dodge rolling, sprinting, and sneaking cost the same in LA as Heavy.

That makes no sense. Heavy needs additional penalties to balance it's advantage of extra protection.

It has penalties. It does not make spells 21% cheaper like LA does. It does not boost magicka regen by 28% like LA does. Etc.

The tradeoff is already there. You trade damage and potential damage(in the form of better resource management) for protection from damage.

AshTal

A knight in full plate could bearly walk and had to be lifted onto his horse. Yet characters in full plate can run, dodge, mount and fight with no delay if we are using real life as a basis guys in heavy armour would be very slow moving. Difficulty turning and if knocked over would never get up.

Now I took my sorc out of light and dumped heavy armour on him. His power went through the roof. Mobs which ripped through me in light bearly seemed to be able to damage me. Heavy armour is over powered at the moment and I would think some logic could be used. Meele attacks should be resisted even things like Lava Whip by heavy armour but spells casters should still be able to tear through heavy armour. There is nothing in our world we can use as examples that says a curse which explodes on someone would be effected at all by heavy armour and being hit by lightning would probably be much much worse.

Sharee

Xjcon wrote: »

Sure give a huge movement penalty to heavy armor. But give anyone shot with a bow or hit with a sword who isn't in Heavy Armor huge damage or instant death. I mean if we want weight to be like it should be IRL then maybe we should let a crushing blow only be blockable by a person with heavy armor and a shield. Blocking a sword with a stick....well you get my point. Stop trying to base the way the game is around real world physics. It's a fantasy world......

Also, you should not be able to block arrows with a staff (unless you are the Ninja class, coming soon(tm) to a crown store near you )

Aeratus

Heavy armor > medium/light armor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzhyLuXzNZY

As advertised

The nord in heavy armor easily dominates the breton wearing mixed medium and light. Working as intended.

DisgracefulMind

Solanum wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

For 1v1 duels, interestingly enough, I have found I prefer light armor still for my Dragonknight. I tried the heavy armor, but seeing as my playstyle requires the extensive use of magicka, I just didn't like how it felt. I feel more comfortable with the full light armor passives, and probably won't get rid of the sustain it gives to my resources. I've been working a nice balance and build out to conserve my stamina, and it's been working well. I dueled against a heavy armor Dragonknight, and though the duel was long, I still won in the end. I dueled against a few heavy armor + 2H dragonknights as well, and my build was still superior in the end. I plan to grind out some champion points to put more points into the spell resist increase passive so that I can make my light armor DK build even more viable.

With all this said, I will be wearing 5 heavy most likely when I do group play, because, after some testing with 3 piece heavy for group, I think it will be very viable for that. But from what I've seen, in duels, light armor is still superior to heavy, at least in the case of DKs.

I'm glad that this is confirmed by a Dragonknight in light, though it is kind of to be expected

Resources are very very important for both offense and survivability. Aside from the armor and magick resistance plate offers very little.

If anything I believe plate still requires a major buff to come fully on par with the other two armors and be useful for more then just tanking PVE.

There is a HUGE downfall in being an all light armor melee user, however, in 1.6: stamina. I'm still working through how to manage it better, and tested many different skills and builds to help with this yesterday for a good 7+ hours. I dueled my sorcerer friend for a long, long time, and, though he still beats me (this is really due to the fact that he is just a monster anyways), I was able to get down how to conserve stamina a bit better each time we fought again. It's really going to come down to choosing when it is a proper time to CC break and when it is "safe" to stay CC'd temporarily. I found when we were both sort of kiting each other, my stamina was easier to conserve, and I would stay at a consistent balance of 50% throughout the fight, but when he became more offensive and began to streak through me over and over, I had to time those CC breaks based on the length of time my shields still had up, and would stay down more often than not. All fights were decently long and good fights, but there is a definite difference now with stamina management in light armor. I could pop immovable, but that takes so much stamina in light armor, I would prefer to not do this at all and rely on timing my own CCs on my opponent and following with a heavy attack with my sword to gain a bit of stamina back. Needless to say, keep green dragon blood up at all times is very, very important now, more than ever before, as a light armor Dragonknight.

When I was wearing my 3 piece heavy armor, stamina was not too bad of a problem, though still very noticeable of a difference, but sustain in regards to that stat was much better, but I just can't stand not having the magicka sustain. This could be due to the fact that I prefer to be a magicka user, but I didn't like it as much nor found it as effective in a 1v1.

However, there are good passives in the champion point skill trees that can help with stamina management. I plan to invest in those soon and see if that makes a difference.

Pretty much my conclusion thus far is that, yes, light armor Dragonknight is still very, very viable, but resource management and overall skill of the player has now because much, much important when playing a DK. Everything needs to be timed out precisely: ultimates, CCs, which skill to use, what to use for healing, just everything. I'm not upset by the stamina draining like a lot of people are; I haven't loved my Dragonknight this much in ages. The class just became infinitely more fun to play, and I love that I can be entirely technical with it now. In the live version of the game it is easy to just rely on ultimates to keep you alive and spamming green dragon blood, this playstyle is completely dead. With the ultimate gain changes, the decrease to stamina sustainability in light armor, etc., DKs will need to learn how to drop their block and use more than just a few of the class skills. It's incredible fun.

Sorry for the long post.

(:

EsORising

Dracane wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

It's not OP, it's common sense. If someone is trying to kill you with a given weapon or skill, which is going to protect you more? Full plate armor, or a bathrobe? Working as it should...,

Indeed, i totally agree on that.
But uhm... shouldn't light armor give you something ? Where is the point in wearing light armor at the moment ? There are miles between light armor and heavy armor resistance. But unfortunately not miles between the spell cost reduction and other benefits.

It gives passives and mages are still pretty strong reguardless of the changes. If I'm right there should be changes with spellpower affecting skills instead of just scaling off the weapon so you won't be fighting DK's in heavy with a staff, which should give mages the edge. I'm glad they upped the armor stats because it really didn't make any sense the way it was.

DisgracefulMind

EsORising wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

It's not OP, it's common sense. If someone is trying to kill you with a given weapon or skill, which is going to protect you more? Full plate armor, or a bathrobe? Working as it should...,

Indeed, i totally agree on that.
But uhm... shouldn't light armor give you something ? Where is the point in wearing light armor at the moment ? There are miles between light armor and heavy armor resistance. But unfortunately not miles between the spell cost reduction and other benefits.

It gives passives and mages are still pretty strong reguardless of the changes. If I'm right there should be changes with spellpower affecting skills instead of just scaling off the weapon so you won't be fighting DK's in heavy with a staff, which should give mages the edge. I'm glad they upped the armor stats because it really didn't make any sense the way it was.

Just to add, light armor allows fierce magicka builds STILL in 1.6. These builds just won't come with any mercy to stamina management, but, if you find skills to help you use less stamina, you should be fine.

Artemiisia

for me it should be:

Heavy armor high protection, lessor dps
Medium armor, medium protection, medium dps
Light armor, lessor protection, high dps

that way u sacrifice something to gain something

PBpsy

Aeratus wrote: »

Heavy armor > medium/light armor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzhyLuXzNZY

As advertised

The nord in heavy armor easily dominates the breton wearing mixed medium and light. Working as intended.

What I got from that is that the NORD LARPer has a very unconvincing costume and seems to be a much bigger dork then the more convincing costume Breton LARPer.

Valencer

Seriously, guys.

Cyrodiil has been overflowing with bathrobes for the past 9 months. Can we please get a break?

The problem with the old light armour is that it had superior damage (so everybody wanted to use it) and the best protection against itself (spell resistance). A vicious circle, if I ever saw one.

The PTS has been updated for a couple of days and the accusations of <not light armour> is OP and ZOS being incompetent are already thrown around like candy. Can we please just give it some time?

This isnt about realism. This is about introducing some manner of choice into the skill system. Heavy Armour can't compete on damage. It just can't. It needs something to be good at.

Solanum

I worry a bit about the fact that the complete advantage heavy armor has can still be removed with a single reapers mark. (75% reduction in armor and spell resist)

If our complete survivability depends on our armor and spell resist values, it'd be nice if it couldn't be removed completely.

Sylvyr

I like the CLASSIC model of armor differences - protection vs. encumbrance and what that translates to

Heavy - most physical protection, most encumbering.
Light - least physical protection, least encumbering
Medium - In between

Encumbrance generally translates to speed and freedom or lack thereof.

Heavy armor "tank" is just that, armored and slow. Harder to move, slower to attack, dodge, etc. Attacks often slower but being strength based hit like a truck. Casters could wear heavy but be severely penalized for not having freedom of motion needed to be "in tune" with the world and magic, decreasing strength of spells and speed of cast.

Medium armor was always the compromise between protection and more dexterity-like finesse stick and roll fighting. Casters would be moderately penalized for lack of freedom

Light armor was the ultimate for dexterity finesse fighters wanting more mobility at the exchange of protection. Also more desireable for casters for NO penalty for no lack of freedom to affect their spellcasting, cast at max strength and max speed.

When it comes to magical offense and defense, it was always about racial bonuses, magical potions, and magical enchantments, be it on the armor, weapons, trinkets, or spells.

The above system worked well for decades, I don't know why all the sudden heavy has to have inherent spell defense and the links between the 3 armor types are a strict 1 to 1 relationship between the armor types and health, stam, and magicka. If any link they should all have relations to all the stats but in varying ratios be it penalties or bonuses. And magic should have NOTHING to do with physical armor UNLESS IT IS IMBUED WITH MAGIC (eh wot?)

The way this game sets it up.... is just so wonky. It's no wonder everyone is pulling their eyes out of their sockets and throwing darts at the dartboard!

Cody

HA is supposed to give more resistance than LA. on live atm it does not, and is completely useless save for tanking.

LA players should not be close to HA wearing enemies to begin with. You are wearing basically regular clothes with no armor enhancements whatsoever, against someone wearing full plate mail/steel. Whom do you think should win in close combat? LA users are SUPPOSED to get beat in close combat by HA users, as HA users are wearing.... wait for it... ACTUAL ARMOR.

I have done some PvP on the PTS, LA players can still do massive amounts of damage. LA players can still play very well, they just have to get used to playing a LA character as it is supposed to be played: not up front killing everything, but hanging back and providing support from a distance.

Morshire

I have to agree that the change to HA is a welcome one. It is ridiculous that I have been better off running around in LA and surviving after the actual tank has fallen, or worse, long enough to rez said tank. I think from the PVE side, I would have liked to see greater taunts to go with this "upgrade". I mean if the tank can withstand greater damage, than shouldn't he/she be able to hold the source of the damage so that "gown wearing nightdress" can do their thing? I mean seriously, 2 single target taunts is not enough to justify armor that can withstand 50% more damage if the LA is continuously running for their lives while the slowed tank is sprinting to catch them and gain the agro. IMO I think that this would solve the PVE/group aspect.

I am not sure what PVP has in store. I mean, I think we can all agree, that is a "trending" area and no matter what direction ZOS seems to head, it results in X dominating the battle ground, and everyone else seems to just follow that. PVP, all around, needs some desperate attention in the mechanics department. (But that is off topic, sorry)

Cody

Bouvin wrote: »

JLB wrote: »

Very good change, and about time heavy armor acted as a heavy armor. Well done @ZOS.

But it's not.

There's no movement penalty. No Dodge roll or Spring cost increase. No Stealth penalty.

So, really, it's not acting like heavy armor at all.

if you want a movement penalty for HA , then players in LA should instantly die from weapon attacks, same with people in MA, realism works both(or all three in this case?:/) ways my friend.

Balance must be achieved. The era of "everyone use X armor" in ESO has to end with 1.6

HA will now be viable for both DPS and tanking; deal with it. Players in LA will still get cost reductions and perform better off as pure spell casters. HA is supposed to have more resistance than LA, it is HEAVY ARMOR. LA is not even armor!! Its a set of regular clothes!!!!!! Why should a set of regular clothes have more resistance than a full set of STEEL?? STEEL v regular clothes, just think about it!!!

/end rant

Cody

danovic wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Light armor should give spell resist. and heavy should give resist to physical attks. I don't know why they would make your armor ratting and you spell resist the same. Heavy needed to be fixed but the spell resist doesn't make sense to me.

Think about it cloth armor basically the cloths you wear now how would that help you resist fire. cold. or electricity. It wouldn't well padded metal reinforce armor would help with all of that so you should get high resists even to electricity a full set off plate armor will conduct electricity to the ground its a Faraday cage would be almost immune to that attack. The only thing light armor should give you is Magic and dexterity/constitution. Dodge rolling should be free wearing light armor and a vastly increase magic pool and regen as only true wizards would ever want to wear it. Give light armor the bonus it deserves but definitely little armor protection a wizard should never get hit.

dodge rolling bonuses belong to MA players, as they rely on speed and evasion more than anyone, and they are the scouts.

everything else I agree with

Cody

AshTal wrote: »

A knight in full plate could bearly walk and had to be lifted onto his horse. Yet characters in full plate can run, dodge, mount and fight with no delay if we are using real life as a basis guys in heavy armour would be very slow moving. Difficulty turning and if knocked over would never get up.

and people in all clothing often died from 1-2 stabs of a sword, as they had nothing to protect them.

You tear thru PvE mobs in HA? good for you.

now go try it in PvP and tell us how it went.

Soulshine

Some arguements on both sides seem bent on ignoring what those of us on PTS keep reposting in this thread --- you cannot just go by current armor passives on live.

If you take into account the passives you can invest in on the CP system, you will find the benefits you seek, both for HA and LA. The change will impact people less than what is being speculated by some here. On the positive, HA is moved more towards where it should have been which is a nice change. LA does not lose much of what it should have for casters, which is also nice.

Nightreaver

Sharee wrote: »

Therefore you need to compare it not to heavy, but to medium armor.

The race where one is using a well-fitting leather outfit and the other loose garbs that he will get entangled in when trying to sprint or dodge would have a clear winner.

So in your world there are tailors for people wearing Leather while anyone wearing cloth must get theirs from the Goodwill hand-me-down shop? Imagine that, a world where no one knows how to make clothes.
I'm fairly certain that if there are tailors for Leather then one can be found for Cloth. In that case the difference between someone wearing Leather armor and someone wearing a cloth tunic and legs becomes the weight and encumbrance added by the leather. In which case yes, there would be a clear winner. And no, it wouldn't be you.

Solanum wrote: »

If you want plate to realistically slow us down, I want those in cloth to realistically die from a single hit of a greatsword.

Well considering Heavy has 4x the armor rating of Light then yes, I imagine that would be 4x as likely to occur with someone wearing Light.

Artemiisia wrote: »

for me it should be:
Heavy armor high protection, lessor dps
Medium armor, medium protection, medium dps
Light armor, lessor protection, high dps
that way u sacrifice something to gain something

Sylvyr wrote: »

I like the CLASSIC model of armor differences - protection vs. encumbrance and what that translates to
Heavy - most physical protection, most encumbering.
Light - least physical protection, least encumbering
Medium - In between

Encumbrance generally translates to speed and freedom or lack thereof.

If I were to choose between those two then I would definitely go with @ Artemiisia as the 2nd option makes no sense at all in an MMO environment and certainly has not been the norm for mmos. The Holy Trinity of MMOs consists of Tanks, Healers and DPS. Pick any mmo and you will find discussions regarding what class is the best Tank, which is the best Healer and which is the best DPS. What MMO is there where the emphasis was on which class was least encumbering?
Anything that increases protection would greatly benefit the role of Tanking and to a lesser degree even the other two. If all three roles benefit from one type of armor and none of the roles benefit from the other then it becomes a real easy decision as to what to wear.

@Artemiisia's version gives balance to those roles.

Of course there is always the third option
Light - Best DPS, most encumbering (tripped up by that dang bathrobe again)
Heavy - Worst DPS, least encumbering (no loose threads to trip over)
Medium - In between

Because yeah, it would be just as fair as the 2nd option and I imagine would go over just as well.

mielgatorwb17_ESO

In all seriousness possible, I foresee that everyone will play Heavy in PvP. You can with the actual system on the PTS win up to 3600 CP, which represent, well ... the whole champion tree fully filled. Which mean, heavy will have a not so bad magicka/health/stamina regen. Which mean heavy will have not so bad damages. Which mean light and medium will still have few advantages for damage dealing, but those are really minor compared to the mitigation heavy give, talking about these advantages, a whole medium set 7/7 give you with the critical diminishing return, a whopping 4.5% of crit (BTW Thief boon isn't affected by DR, what else? still not found, but trust me, I will). My guess, Light will give even less crit if the 5/5 bonus affected by diminishing return (not verified yet, still trying to make a viable stamina build for my sorcerer, might abandon this silly idea). Spell penetration has been nerfed on LA a while ago, now is the time to up it again.

well, in the end, practically nothing change... peoples will still pvp with a shield, but instead wearing LA, they'll wear HA.

i'm doing the PTS, really hard, and i'm really puzzled with zenimax choices, while some are really good, in the other hands some are really discutable. I already see all the misuse possible with the champion tree maxed out and the few overpowered build that will rule them all.

Yeah, nothing will change, but we'll have to rethink all our theorycraft for 1.6, again with 1.7, thanks zenimax

Forestd16b14_ESO

Solanum wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Sure give a huge movement penalty to heavy armor. But give anyone shot with a bow or hit with a sword who isn't in Heavy Armor huge damage or instant death. I mean if we want weight to be like it should be IRL then maybe we should let a crushing blow only be blockable by a person with heavy armor and a shield. Blocking a sword with a stick....well you get my point. Stop trying to base the way the game is around real world physics. It's a fantasy world......

I agree with this.

If you want plate to realistically slow us down, I want those in cloth to realistically die from a single hit of a greatsword.

Or to catch on fire when hit by a magical fire ball flying through the air.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Valencer wrote: »

Seriously, guys.

Cyrodiil has been overflowing with bathrobes for the past 9 months. Can we please get a break?

The problem with the old light armour is that it had superior damage (so everybody wanted to use it) and the best protection against itself (spell resistance). A vicious circle, if I ever saw one.

The PTS has been updated for a couple of days and the accusations of <not light armour> is OP and ZOS being incompetent are already thrown around like candy. Can we please just give it some time?

This isnt about realism. This is about introducing some manner of choice into the skill system. Heavy Armour can't compete on damage. It just can't. It needs something to be good at.

Agreed. Here's how I see the new system and my opinion it's gonna work out fine. Wanna defend wear heavy. Wanna magical DPS wear light. Wanna do something in between that's ok-ish with both and good physical DPS added wear medium.

Plus if player still cry about realism new flash not all the heavy armor is plate mail. Look at the Nord style armor the most metal on it is the chest gauntlets boots and helmet every thing under it is this scale plate armor and that is a realistic type armor that is both very protective and flexiable. For lore freaks like me Nords craftsmen are know for there strong, sturdy, and flexiable gear. Also take a look at Khajiit heavy armor it a metal vest how is that not flexiable they got no sleeves.