Heavy armor is so OP in 1.6

Emencie

Valencer wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Finally, ZOS has a hard time comprehending that if you buff something to OP status you need to have a counter mechanic that is compromising something from the build. In the case of HA, it needs to make you move slower, cost more stam to perform feats (dodge, run, interrupt etc.) and increase stealth detection radius.

Because heavy armour has no drawbacks whatsoever. Especially not the ones you just listed (reduced mobility, greater resource costs...)

They should totally get to nerfing that health regeneration boost. It's crazy good.

Current drawbacks to heavy armor.

Less physical damage
Less magica damage
Less magica management
Less Stamina management
Less stealth ability
Less dodge roll ability
Less sprinting ability
Less stealth ability
Less damage prevention
Less self healing ability


1.6 drawbacks to heavy armor.

Less physical damage
Less magica damage
Less magica management
Less Stamina management
Less stealth ability
Less dodge roll ability
Less sprinting ability
Less stealth ability
Less damage prevention
Less self healing ability

Seriously is it such a big deal for heavy armor to be the best for tanking finally?
DPS and healing will still, and are still wearing light and medium.

Hutuldur

Off-topic, but IRL fire/lighting doesn't do more damage to heavy than light. I would much rather have 2 cm of steel between my skin and and fire ball than a cotton t-shirt. Some for electricity. Metal conducts electricity better than skin. I would guess most of the current would just go through metal to the ground.

Cuyler

Orchish wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

First off, it should be apparent by now that ZOS has no idea what they are doing when it comes to balancing anything in this game.

Second the reason this is an issue is because in PvP there are already DKs that are nearly immortal and this change to HA, along with the 1.6 buff to DKs, will make them 2x more likely to be unkillable. It's just a stupid, stupid mechanic and completely ruins the PvP experience. gg @ZOS

Finally, ZOS has a hard time comprehending that if you buff something to OP status you need to have a counter mechanic that is compromising something from the build. In the case of HA, it needs to make you move slower, cost more stam to perform feats (dodge, run, interrupt etc.) and increase stealth detection radius.

Personally I feel LA being1/4 the armor of HA is a little harsh. Should be more like 50% LA, 75% MA, 100% HA.

No it won't, not even close to it. Have you even played a DK in heavy in current PTS? Resource management is non existent. You hold block against just a few players and you'll be out of stamina and dead very quickly, and that's without doing any dps at all. The strength of the godlike DK's you are on about just the same as the templars/sorcs are the light wearing shield stackers. The impression i get from your comment is that you are a light armour user and don't like the fact your armour has taken a nerf.

I am a LA build atm, but I'm also not stewing over the fact its garbage at mitigating any damage now. I'll conform without a problem if it is indeed needed, I have the mats.

The section of my comment you've highlighted is simply stating that DKs were/are OP and any of the armor changes in 1.6 appear to reinforce more imbalance.

There has not been a significant amount of time to test these changes yet but if it continues to remain taking 10 ppl to down one of these DKs (more than likely now wearing HA) I'll be here spewing imbalance jargon, because it makes PvP blew. I get the impression your a DK planning to go HA and just own it in PvP with easy mode?

Valencer

Cuyler wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Finally, ZOS has a hard time comprehending that if you buff something to OP status you need to have a counter mechanic that is compromising something from the build. In the case of HA, it needs to make you move slower, cost more stam to perform feats (dodge, run, interrupt etc.) and increase stealth detection radius.

Because heavy armour has no drawbacks whatsoever. Especially not the ones you just listed (reduced mobility, greater resource costs...)

They should totally get to nerfing that health regeneration boost. It's crazy good.

Maybe I missed where it says HA slows you down, could you provide some evidence? It doesn't have greater resource cost, it buffs health and stam but doesn't reduce the mag cost like LA. That's not the same as increasing costs for sneaking for instance. Again maybe I missed it and you could back up that statement.

The health regen boost being the only buff is an understatement on your part. HA gets all the armor and spell resist. It should only be armor. Spell resist should have to be acquired another way than simply putting on plate.

Heavy Armour is less mobile compared to Medium Armor, as MA has passives reducing the cost of dodge roll and increasing sprint speed. Heavy Armour has relatively greater resource costs, as both Light Armor and Medium Armor have cost reduction passives. In addition to that, LA and ME have constant magicka/stamina regeneration, while HA has an on-hit resource return which has apparently been slightly nerfed in 1.6 (every 4 seconds instead of 2 seconds)

There's plenty of drawbacks. Heavy Armour's greater armour and spell resistance is also partly a result of one of the line's passives, so it's not "just there". Especially the spell resistance.

Finally a decent benefit. (Besides the reduced blocking cost passive)

Pyatra

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I do not understand why heavy armor also gives you the most amount of spell resist. The change is completely nonsensical.

This is the main issue, my heavy gives me more spell resist that light armor. I thought in the patch notes that LA was suppose to exceed HA in SR. This HAS to be a bug according to the patch notes.

Der_Deutsche_Hase

Emencie wrote: »

Your Armor values are the problem with the game right now.

No, because it seems that Heavy armor has no weakness except for mobility. It doesn't seem weak against magic at all, in fact magic does more damage to light armor, then it does to heavy and medium armor which doesn't make any sense.

The current only downside to heavy armor is speed, and if you jump off a high point the amount of damage taken.

So no, the armor values in game are not even close to my values.

Argurios

So many people been playing this game so long with the same ***, they cant see some of the changes are how they should have been since launch.

People running round with shields and light armour and never dying, while aoeing everything was ridiculous. It should never have become the norm that so many have taken for granted.

Heavy armour should always offer much better protection, as its realistic, and for people saying why spell resist as well, why wouldn't it?

Same as a sword blow should be stopped better by steel plates, what do you think would have a better chance of stopping magical attacks, a piece of cloth or some thick armour made from durable and exotic materials?

Even if you argue "enchant the weave of the cloth" or some other magical mumbo jumbo, you could just do that with the material used to make the heavy armour.

I don't know enough about light armour as i refuse to use it on a stamina build templar which is my only character, but if it feels underpowered compared to Heavy, then just rethink and have another look. Apart from the protection bonuses, what does heavy armour really do for the combatant? Nothing much offensively, although immovable is useful. If you have ever tried stacking a lot of defensive stats in this game you will see that it actually usually ends up worse than mixing between offense and defense for anything at all other than tanking.

While not everything seems to have been justifiably nerfed, it does appear most nerfs are deserved. This to me is the single best nerf out there. Now casters and other classes that want to wear light armour have to have a focus on survival and avoidance rather than thinking they can get stuck in with the warriors which frankly is ridiculous.

"Play it your way" should have been a concept that incorporated at least some realism from the beginning, regardless of the freedom they intended to offer. The novelty of wacky combinations wore off fairly fast, before it was taken over by pure cheese.

And i am not happy with everything either but that is my two pence on armour classes. It was long overdue.

Lord_Draevan

This is good, Light Armor isn't the best choice for both Tanking and Magic dps anymore.
This also means more variety on the battlefield and less Uber-Tank Light Armor DKs too. A good thing, in my opinion.
That's my view. I'll be going now.

Valencer

<snip>

Emma_Overload

People who haven't even played on the PTS are exaggerating. Light Armor doesn't feel that bad on 1.6, I'm not getting one-shotted by wasps or anything.

I think in the future you'll see most PVE and PVP spell-casters using heavy armor, with light armor being reserved for large parties of DPS min-maxers who have a dedicated tank and healer.

No problemo, in my opinion.

naturn

I like the change to heavy armor. We needed to do something to diversify armor use. The dks and templers should be wearing the armor they feel is appropriate . And we all know how hard it is for a dk or templer to survive in pvp (insert a sarcastic smile here). But actually I really am glad to see heavy armor get its buff.

Now lets see sorcs get a buff to dps because right now they have the lowest dps of any class. Lets see a glass canon not a glass flashlight.

Ask most people about survivability for sorcs in pvp right now. I can tell you sorcs have a hard time surviving. A dk can do great by hitting 3 keys over and over, but for a sorc to do well in pvp it really takes a lot of skill and hitting a lot more keys. Lets see sorcs get more dps since they are going to be fighting much tougher opponents now.

I really don't want to see Cyrodiil limited to just bow wielding heavy armored dk zombies battling each other because everyone else has left the game or been converted to bow wielding heavy armored dk zombies.

Cuyler

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

People who haven't even played on the PTS are exaggerating. Light Armor doesn't feel that bad on 1.6, I'm not getting one-shotted by wasps or anything.

I think in the future you'll see most PVE and PVP spell-casters using heavy armor, with light armor being reserved for large parties of DPS min-maxers who have a dedicated tank and healer.

No problemo, in my opinion.

I hope your right.

Xjcon

May have been said already but. Imo light should have the effect of a glass cannon, increase spell damage and spell pen, medium should have increase stamina and armor pen. Heavy should have all the mitigation from spell resist and physical damage mitigation.

Bouvin

JLB wrote: »

Very good change, and about time heavy armor acted as a heavy armor. Well done @ZOS.

But it's not.

There's no movement penalty. No Dodge roll or Spring cost increase. No Stealth penalty.

So, really, it's not acting like heavy armor at all.

AshTal

Heavy armour should give the most protection. But this is a game and it needs to make sense or we simple end up with everyone in heavy armour regardless of class or ability.
The problem is they didn't balance armour correctly initially and have now made the same mistake again.
Light armour should be for sorcs and some Templars. Medium for nightblades and maybe some dragon Knights and heavy for some Templars and most dragon knights depending on play style. But instead they make some armour so much better than others that everyone just flocks to it.

Fortunately they have over a month to correct this and all the other issues they have created.

Sharee

Bouvin wrote: »

JLB wrote: »

Very good change, and about time heavy armor acted as a heavy armor. Well done @ZOS.

But it's not.

There's no movement penalty. No Dodge roll or Spring cost increase. No Stealth penalty.

So, really, it's not acting like heavy armor at all.

There is a penalty, it's just not called a penalty.

Compared to medium armor, both HA and LA have higher costs for dodge rolling, sneaking, and sprinting, and slower movement while sprinting.

It's called a bonus to medium armor, but really, the effect is the same as medium armor being the baseline and the other 2 having a penalty.

danovic

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Light armor should give spell resist. and heavy should give resist to physical attks. I don't know why they would make your armor ratting and you spell resist the same. Heavy needed to be fixed but the spell resist doesn't make sense to me.

Think about it cloth armor basically the cloths you wear now how would that help you resist fire. cold. or electricity. It wouldn't well padded metal reinforce armor would help with all of that so you should get high resists even to electricity a full set off plate armor will conduct electricity to the ground its a Faraday cage would be almost immune to that attack. The only thing light armor should give you is Magic and dexterity/constitution. Dodge rolling should be free wearing light armor and a vastly increase magic pool and regen as only true wizards would ever want to wear it. Give light armor the bonus it deserves but definitely little armor protection a wizard should never get hit.

Sharee

danovic wrote: »

Dodge rolling should be free wearing light armor

Try to do a dodge roll while wearing an evening gown.

Joy_Division

Argurios wrote: »

Heavy armour should always offer much better protection, as its realistic, and for people saying why spell resist as well, why wouldn't it?

Because in traditional RPGs avoiding spell and magical based attacks had nothing to do with wearing steel, scale, or leather. Instead, it was an abstraction of innate resistance, arcane study, and dexterity. Slapping on a suit of plate implies you have no innate resistance to damage, suggests you have not studied at the academy, and certainly restricts the agility and speed you'd need to evade an attack that your steel suit offers zero protection against.

The wizard in robes, however, is another story. Wizards do sometimes have atypical resistances, have undergone some sort of magical tutelage or have been born with the gift of magic, and do not have their motor skills or movement impeded by wearing 45+ pounds of tempered steel.

This is not to say heavy armor wearers CANT have effective resistance to magic, just that it was not the default and such protection was limited to those who devoted their character advancement resources to such. Just as a robe wearing could potentially shield themselves against the sort of physical attacks that traditional heavy armor excels at.

Nightreaver

Sharee wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

Dodge rolling should be free wearing light armor

Try to do a dodge roll while wearing an evening gown.

Never wore an evening gown but I have worn a bath robe as other have used to describe it and can roll, dodge and sprint quite well. Much better I would imagine than someone wearing a 200 pound tin can.

And just to make the gap far more greater between a LA and a HA attempting those feats keep in mind that robes are NOT required for LA. A Tunic can be worn in place of any robes.

So yeah, you put on your 200 lb tin can and I'll put on my pajamas and we'll have a race that includes dodging and rolling and see who wins.

Aeratus

danovic wrote: »

Because in traditional RPGs avoiding spell and magical based attacks had nothing to do with wearing steel, scale, or leather. Instead, it was an abstraction of innate resistance, arcane study, and dexterity. Slapping on a suit of plate implies you have no innate resistance to damage, suggests you have not studied at the academy, and certainly restricts the agility and speed you'd need to evade an attack that your steel suit offers zero protection against.

Depends on the RPG, obviously. Some RPGs make a distinction between elemental type magic, and "effect-like" magic (such as the NB fear skill).

From a realism standpoint, elemental magic (which is what most spell damage in this game is), isn't anything different from what you find in real life. The most overt example are the ice-based attacks in the game. Ice is just a physical object, so of course the thicker the armor, the more protection. As to fire, most cloths have poor resistance to fire compared to metal. Metal has a disadvantage of heat conductivity, but most metal armor is padded by fabric, so that isn't an issue.

Sharee

Nightreaver wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

Dodge rolling should be free wearing light armor

Try to do a dodge roll while wearing an evening gown.

Never wore an evening gown but I have worn a bath robe as other have used to describe it and can roll, dodge and sprint quite well. Much better I would imagine than someone wearing a 200 pound tin can.

And just to make the gap far more greater between a LA and a HA attempting those feats keep in mind that robes are NOT required for LA. A Tunic can be worn in place of any robes.

So yeah, you put on your 200 lb tin can and I'll put on my pajamas and we'll have a race that includes dodging and rolling and see who wins.

The argument (in the post i replied to) was that light armor should be best at dodge rolling (literally, 'dodge rolling should be free').

Therefore you need to compare it not to heavy, but to medium armor.

The race where one is using a well-fitting leather outfit and the other loose garbs that he will get entangled in when trying to sprint or dodge would have a clear winner.

Merlin13KAGL

Dracane wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

It's not OP, it's common sense. If someone is trying to kill you with a given weapon or skill, which is going to protect you more? Full plate armor, or a bathrobe? Working as it should...,

Indeed, i totally agree on that.
But uhm... shouldn't light armor give you something ? Where is the point in wearing light armor at the moment ? There are miles between light armor and heavy armor resistance. But unfortunately not miles between the spell cost reduction and other benefits.

@Dracane , @dharbert‌

Don't know why 1/3 , 2/3 , 3/3 regarding armor didn't make it in there. (vice 1/4, 3/4, 4/4)

Light was already about 1/2 what heavy was (which was not unreasonable), now it's half again.

The fact that your AC also gives you 1:1 Spell Protection is absurd.

More armor, fine, more spell protection? (Let me try out my lightning bolt on full plate and see the result?)

Lore-wise, LA didn't give you the armor bonus from the material so much as the intrinsic enchantment of the material. Take Mythril as a prime example.

Light armor game spell resist HA gave armor points. Medium was somewhere in between.

Holycannoli

Cuyler wrote: »

Finally, ZOS has a hard time comprehending that if you buff something to OP status you need to have a counter mechanic that is compromising something from the build. In the case of HA, it needs to make you move slower, cost more stam to perform feats (dodge, run, interrupt etc.) and increase stealth detection radius.

Exactly! That's exactly what I said in my reply. It's so basic a concept I have to wonder why the devs didn't implement it that way.

Light armor should give no speed, stamina or stealth penalties but offer almost protection.

Heavy armor should give speed, stamina and stealth penalties but offer superior protection.

Medium should be somewhere in between.

I also think no armor should have inherent magicka, stamina or health bonuses. That should all be left to enchantments. Armor choice should be purely based on speed, stamina and stealth vs protection, and then you enchant it how you want.

Joy_Division

Aeratus wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

Because in traditional RPGs avoiding spell and magical based attacks had nothing to do with wearing steel, scale, or leather. Instead, it was an abstraction of innate resistance, arcane study, and dexterity. Slapping on a suit of plate implies you have no innate resistance to damage, suggests you have not studied at the academy, and certainly restricts the agility and speed you'd need to evade an attack that your steel suit offers zero protection against.

Depends on the RPG, obviously. Some RPGs make a distinction between elemental type magic, and "effect-like" magic (such as the NB fear skill).

From a realism standpoint, elemental magic (which is what most spell damage in this game is), isn't anything different from what you find in real life. The most overt example are the ice-based attacks in the game. Ice is just a physical object, so of course the thicker the armor, the more protection. As to fire, most cloths have poor resistance to fire compared to metal. Metal has a disadvantage of heat conductivity, but most metal armor is padded by fabric, so that isn't an issue.

When it is cold outside, I put on my cloth winter coat, not my metal winter coat.

When there is a danger of lightning, I move away from large and exposed metal objects.

When a metal pot is on a stove burner, have you ever touched it?

c0rp

The current system if fine WHEN a movement penalty is given to heavy armor. As long as a heavy can run around just as fast as a light...the system is broken.

Emencie

Der_Deutsche_Hase wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

Your Armor values are the problem with the game right now.

No, because it seems that Heavy armor has no weakness except for mobility. It doesn't seem weak against magic at all, in fact magic does more damage to light armor, then it does to heavy and medium armor which doesn't make any sense.

The current only downside to heavy armor is speed, and if you jump off a high point the amount of damage taken.

So no, the armor values in game are not even close to my values.

Do you play this game? You wrote

Der_Deutsche_Hase wrote: »

*Light Armor-Robes, give magika buff, while granting extra resistance against magic.Has Amazing agility and mobility.

Heavy Armor-Plate Armor. Gives outstanding protection against melee, and Arrows. Extremely weak against magic. Has worst mobility and agility. Grants Buffs to Marksman and Melee.*

• Light armor gives a magicka buff
• Light armor gives the most resistances against magic attacks
• Light armor has arguably the most agility and mobility because it does not require stamina to do anything but block and dodge roll. So always has reserve stamina to do these things.

• Heavy armor gives the most protection against melee and arrows.
• Heavy armor gives an insignificant amount of protection from magic (non if you have no base resistance) Making it weaker than light armor to magic attacks.
• Heavy armor does not have extensive stamina like Medium, nor does it have the power in magicka to be able to only use magicka to fight. Meaning heavy armor has the least amount of stamina available to dodge roll, stealth and sprint. Making it by far the least mobile.
• Heavy armor does grant physical damage.

This is how the game works right now if you log into live! And guess what? Heavy armor is useless!

The downside to heavy armor in game right now is that it doesn't protect better than light armor, If doesn't have good damage like light and medium, and it doesn't give enough of a resource, like light and medium.

They changed it in 1.6 to now give a resource (health), and be the hands down best at protecting the wearer.

heavy armor in 1.6 still is the least DPS, The least mobile and the least HPS you can have!

In other words Light armor still deals more magic damage, and has better healing. and medium armor still have better damage and mobility.

Lynx7386

c0rp wrote: »

The current system if fine WHEN a movement penalty is given to heavy armor. As long as a heavy can run around just as fast as a light...the system is broken.

A physically fit warrior in heavy armor should have no problem moving as fast as a frail old wizard in robes. Medium armor users are faster than both and nobody complains about it.

Think about what you're suggesting for a moment: do you really want the tank slowing down the entire group in a trials run just because they move at a snail's pace compared to everyone else?

TheShadowScout

Bouvin wrote: »

There's no movement penalty. No Dodge roll or Spring cost increase. No Stealth penalty.

I for one would like to see not merely a lack of boosts, but an actual penalty for wearing heavy armor. Because things -would- get a bit more difficult when someome was lugging around 70 pounds or more of metal clothes...

Dodge? That one might take some more effort, but not too much. The big effort would be in standing up after the roll I would think... any standing up, which means there could be a delay after every dodge roll or knockdown as the armored "turtle" struggles to get on their feet again...

Sprinting? Should cost at -least- twice the stamina it does in medium armor, I'd say. Carrying all that weight has to come at a price! Goes for horses as well, carrying a person in a robe is much easier and less tiring for a horse then carrying a person in plate mail (in fact, many horses were not strong enough to do latter, knights needed especially big and strong horse breeds to ride...)
Armor does not make you run much slower, it merely makes running a lot more tiring. (and it means it might be hard to heavy armor people to catch others if they think to run...)

Swimming? So far armor does not affect that at all, which is quite silly, as plate mail would make even an olympic medallist swimmer sink like a stone. Sadly, ESO does not at this time have armor affect swimming, which I think it should, but... eh, maybe some update in the future... (How about - underwear - no swim penalty, light robes - 20% penalty, medium - 40%, heavy - 80%, sink and drowning DoT?)

Stealth? Would he hard to do, metal clothes clink and scrape, and all that extra weight won't make your steps any quieter either. I'd like to see all stealth ranges halved while in heavy mail...

Magical protection... here I would agree with the current preview... heavy armor -should- give better spell protection then robes. Traditionally, most metal mail was worn over padded undergarments, be it layers of silk robes or linen jerkins. So, if cloth brings on the spell resistance through stitched runes or something, heavy armor would have that as well on its padding.
And for all physical effects of magic... flame, frost, lightning... you'd be better off in plate mail then a cloth robe. Flame may heat your armor, scorching your padding... bit it won't set it afire like your robe. Frost may cover your plate mail in rime, but the padding underneath will keep the cold from giving you frostbite. Lightning may be attracted to your metal, true... but the padding usually is not a good conductor, so chances are good it will run along your mail to the ground (much like that metal spike on your roof keeping your house safe) while the same lightning bolt might burn a hole through the other guys robe.
Of course... technically that spell protection might also apply to beneficial spells... though I doubt that will ever happen... Still, I could see some spells and skills get their effects reduced when used on those in heavy armor...

Hmmm... actually heavy armor might be quite uncomfortable in hot climates, I remember reading about knights suffering exhaustion and heatstroke left and right during the crusades... not like ESO has something like that, but... if they ever think of adding environmental effects, I would like to see heavy armor giving a stamina penalty in "hot" zones like the Alik'r or Black Marsh... (and walking around in your undies giving some "freezing" DoT in "cold" zones like Eastmarch...)

So in conclusion, I hope they don't nerf the high protection of heavy armor, but add drawbacks to make it inconvinient outside battle.

If anything, maaaybe buff the other armor sets stamina/magica boosts a little if actual playtesting shows them to be at a great disadvantage (especially in pvP I suppose)

olemanwinter

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

GUISE Heavy Armor actually acts as Heavy Armor now....Freak out and pretend as if its OP.

So, like it kills you walking across Alik'r Desert right?