Zerg trains are ruining this game. It's sad SAD

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@Krinaman‌

How is this convoluted logic? Oo
This is just how people make decisions.
You look at the pros and cons of an option, and if the cons outweights the pros, you discard it and focus on the alternatives that have more pros than cons.

Just one aspect of the game has been changed between both context, the target cap, everything else remains the same. All the statistics we need exist.
You don't have more complexity observing one situation or the other.

In the end, we've considered both pros/cons, and this is clearly a case where healing/buffing just doesn't hold up.

50 spread out versus 50 stacking when aoes are uncaped, the stacking do not stand a chance.
Even if the stackings were perfect in communication, their ranged focus fires would only hit 2-4 enemies at a time, due to player density, while the spread out would have an easy single target to focus on with 40-50 stacking players getting hit.
The spread out wouldn't even need to be that good or the same numbers.

Also remember the ability comparisons.
1 dps aoe character outweights 1 aoe healer character by a fair margin at equal targets hit.
In the spread out group, just as currently in a stacking group with the aoe caps in place,1 healer character can use his single or 3 targets heals for better burst heals and outweight the enemy group dps because he has less work to do.
perhaps even stronger as it has only 2-4 targets to heal in average instead of the guaranteed 6 in the current meta game.

It solves stacking, it really does.

---

About your opinion, I think you're basing it on a couple incorrect assumptions.

First, while aoes will be stronger in maximum potential, they'll be weaker in practice. The current state of the game is that aoes are always preferable as you get a guaranteed 6 targets hit.
In a context where players are spread out, ranged aoe hit only 2-4 targets and pbaos hit around 6 targets but will require to get in actual risk.
So in practice they'll be weaker.

Will this be enough to make single target balanced?
I think so, or at the very least, it is a first step in getting them more viable.

It will however make melee and close ranged abilities more viable.
If you are facing a spread out group, if you're charging on a single target and remaining there, you're in range of only a portion of your enemies. And of those that can hit you, they'll have to notice you and aim at you first.
This is a large step up compared to now where you get in range of the full group and they don't have to notice you as they are just spamming pbaoes.

And secondly, for keeps, I already mentionned it but perhaps didn't explain it in enough depth, but they should actually be easier to capture.
As you mentioned, the inner keep is mostly a succesion of choke points.
This means that at all time, defenders are stacked, while the attackers are spread out on the outside until to the point they decide to charge in.
The attackers are at an advantage defensively and also offensively..
They can just carpet bomb the inner keep with their aoes and siege engines, being sure to hit targets, and then move in to mope up the straglers.

Will a coordinated force still be able to defend a keep?
Yes, but they'll have to work harder for it instead of just standing in a stack, tanking damage.

Now, if you think that easy captures are bad for the game, it is a valid concern.
Are keeps already too volatile? Would having fast captures break the pacing of Cyrodiil? That's something we need to see in action to know.
But it can be addressed by map design, change the buildings and their configuration.

---

About the "Elite" notion:
Currently, it is mostly the "elite" groups that use stacking, because they play to win and know how to min max. The "scrub" that isn't grouped or just plays casually does not know about the target cap. When he sees a blob, he just throws aoe at it, and expect it to work. These are the people that are harmed the most by this feature.

"Elites" take on larger force easily already, but now you'll have a scale of eliteness, because they will have other ways of expressing themselves aside just stacking and getting the numbers to work in their favor. It will raise the skill ceiling while giving those players a more varied game experience.
A longer term appeal.

"Scrubs" will be able to win with numbers more easily too.
If they see a stack, and react to it intuitively, they'll have an effect. But also, they won't have to fight groups that have a very high dodge chance due to stacking.
As you said, better gear and builds is already enough of an advantage.
This makes battles be decided by actual "skill" rather than binary numbers.

---

For the rest, you are correct.

There are people that will always whine when they get rolled over by larger/better groups and those people don't understand that often, it is a case of "l2p".
Fixing the stacking will not make those people stop complaining, it will probably even be a ***. People hate it when they lose their crutches, and not having stacking as a tool will mean its users will have to learn other tactics.
But this shouldn't matter. This isn't a popularity contest, and having a learning curve in a game is generally a net positive.
The target cap is an actual design flaw, and it is harming the game.

And as yo usaid, fixing this one issue will not "save the game".
There are many other balance issues, like forward camps, armor skills, werewolves and buff campaigns to name a few, that all still stand in the way of the game becoming all it can be.
But we shouldn't expect all of them to be addressed in one swoop.
The jesus patch is a myth. There will be improvement, but it will come over time.
One battle at a time.

Your last paragraph, about ap scalling up per targets, is actually a great suggestion. It probably won't prevent farming, but it will reward or give temporary "confidence buffs" for those that do manage to kill a high tier player.
It's an entirely different discussion, but I do think the game should remove the emphasis on killing and push it closer to actually wining the war.
This way, there would be less of a gap between "elite" and "team" players.

ArcVelarian

Seriously just add diminishing returns on most AoEs after the first or second cast in X seconds. IE, the damage of Impulse drops by 50% for each time you use it for 5 seconds after the first cast. Bye bye spam trains.

sagitter

Maybe you have not played the launch of the game , where a group of 20 ppl could kill 80 ppl just spamming talons ,standard,impulse and batswarm and you puff insta death. Sorry but that wasn't so funny. Just avoid the zerg. I already suggested collision as a solution at the time , before the cap change.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@sagitter‌ I played then. This was a situation where individual skills were imbalanced. They have been more or less balanced now.
And if your argument is that it is not fun getting one shotted by ultimate abilities, how can you tolerate being one shotted by normal abilities?

Since then I got lucky to play at off hours, then on a backwater campaign where stacking went unknown for a while but the fights were no less large.
ESO is an amazing game in that context. Aoes rarely hit more than 4 targets at a time and you have an actual front line with a support line behind it forming. It really is fun.

But now, even my beloved *** are catching up on the meta.
It's either small fights at night with the occasional stacking group making you go to bed or large stacking fights at prime time on every front.

And no, avoiding the stackers isn't an option. Or at least not when trying to win the war.
The game is designed to make us fight for objectives and it is also designed to make us stack.
There is no meaningful choice here.
Stack or go home

trimsic_ESO

@frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Unfortunately, many people have made their decision to go home, rather than stack. I mean, they canceled their sub.

Shaun98ca2

ZOS kept collision detection out of Cyrodiil due to the strain it puts on servers.

So about the Zerg trains..... here is an idea how about people simply stop playing like that?

OK how about let these train roll through uncontended.

Sounds stupid right? But heres the thing.......Cyrodiil is BORING if you don't have opponents to fight against and I imagine fighting in a zerg train to be even less fun so if all the legit players simply avoid either playing LIKE this or even simply against MAYBE the trend will die.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Gamers play to win.

Even if it was possible as a community to have this kind of self discipline, it isn't our responsability to police a design flaw.
It would be like refusing to breathe because it makes life too grindy.

Players shouldn't feel bad using an intended feature. The target cap was purposefully implemented in the game and the consequences were obvious.

It is up to the devs to fix the game and correct their mistake.

synnerman

Well , another week goes by with no feedback on this . I first thought this was an impulse zergball problem but after the last week my guildies and I have seen its just an AoE blob problem. Anything and everything that's AoE is being used and frankly now we are getting bored with it happening.
These people are grinding AP points just like the xp grind in craglorn and making PvP pointless and the game boring.
I played WoW for years and the instant there was an issue with something that could not be countered it was stomped on, I know if you're lucky with catching the blob off guard or they make a mistake we can wipe them but mostly a case og them facerolling across the map and if you're melee you might aswell just sit on a chair and watch and ranged is not much better as everything is absorbed constantly.
I fear for the PvP endgame as people will leave it and unfortunately people like me who only PvP will just leave and move on/back to other games and there are a few new ones coming out in the next few weeks and WoW has the new expansion.
I love this game as its graphics are awesome and I can wait for class/bug fixes but this AoE cap is the killer for me as mostly it cant be countered that's why people do it and that's what will cause me to leave and quite a few of my guildies feel the same. I fear we are not the only ones .
I ask for the 5th week on the trot can we get an update on this? Is it a case the the Devs are not reading these posts or simply cannot be bothered to answer a civil question? Both scenarios are concerning.

Francescolg

Lol @ all those who still deny or do not want to discuss the major anti-zerg argument about siege weapons, focused fire, etc. ... You do not want to understand, or you have bad manners, not taking into account all strategies vs. any form of zerg/blob/wth... Or (worser) you have never taken 5 friends and tried to coordinate your siege fire for massive kills.. (but you keep coming to the forums and complaining about bombing strategies)

Or, you believe in "Purge" and think that the skill alone, one/two healers spamming purge, should always help vs. coordinated siege fire. In fact, they help a little bit, but they do not "help enough".

Actually, you can win with 3 vs 30, you can be in a bomb-group, you can even win vs a bomb-group just by oil, just by using oil-catapult to cut the end of the tail, hea-debuffing with meatbag, combined with fire-dmg, or effective positioning of healers, even healing through walls is a viable strategy, etc. etc., what matters is: strategy (!), combined ultimates, combos, the correct use of skills/shields (rotation) and skills like rememberance, as well some other decisive ultimate skills, just to mention: Negate Magic. Beside that: oil, oil, oil and more oil, more caltrops, more meatbag, more negates, more dedicated specs (non-main healer purger for example). Also very important is ultimate-regeneration and to put people with a higher ultimate reg in the first place in ultimate-rotations!

All those "higher strategies" (which they ain't) need two things: a skilled leader calling for them, and a correct specialization of each group member, diversified roles/specs: for healers: one doing aoe healing/spot/gtae healing + one healing dmg-spikes, etc. There are many "roles" a class may fullfill in a group, like stamina-reggen templars, etc.
If you force your templar to purge all the time, his "real specialty" and other very strong templar builds, will have their effectiveness cut 50%+!

It seems to me that some negative posts here come from people who still haven't found a good pvp group (as usual). Again: search for guild / pvp groups that use Teamspeak. Doing PvP then right way is more difficult than pve, needs more skill and if you go into main chat and type LFG DO NOT expext any form of "higher strategy" and DO NOT come to the forums and cry about it..

The only disturbing thing about bomb-squads is the lag-/crash-causing and some spammable skills that are beeing modified within the next patches, nothing else! If you do not understand pvp-mechanics, skill/ultimate rotation, which shields to take, that it is not all about AoE/Impulse Spamming, etc. etc., please try other games that suit better to you!

synnerman

I have spoken negative about this blob crap for months now and I run with a regular grp who only play PvP . We have TS and are part of an even larger grp known as the war council. Its simple to say yeah meatbag them and throw an oil cata in there for good measure and line up some siege hits etc etc.
I assume then that your blobs stand still for you and don't constantly run up and down with a constant rapid manoeuvre if not I assume your siege moves faster than ours.
Oh and I also assume your siege fits into your keeps aswell . I have said if all the moons and planets line up etc yes they can be killed .
I also assume that your little blob doesn't have 5 sorcerers streaking through your attacking force and negating you and of course you're not being sieged at the same time.
Notice I use the word assume because that's what you're doing, you assume that the 50, yes fifty man bomb grps we are facing don't use efficient purge and barrier constantly and also using immovable so whilst you are throwing your hissy fit trying to move your siege to them they are actually in your face wiping you.

There are multiple posts on this problem and yet you seem to think you're the only person who has a "strategy" rofl and we are all unorganised morons.

Oh and by the way if you thinks its ok that we need all those strategies on a grp of people most of which are hitting one button is acceptable then that's about as sensible as your claim of 3 v 30 man impulse grp is going to end in favour of the 3 . The only way that's happening is if they're all afk either that or your impulse blobs are grps of the same morons that you think we are.

Moltier

Francescolg wrote: »

Lol @ all those who still deny or do not want to discuss the major anti-zerg argument about siege weapons, focused fire, etc. ... You do not want to understand, or you have bad manners, not taking into account all strategies vs. any form of zerg/blob/wth... Or (worser) you have never taken 5 friends and tried to coordinate your siege fire for massive kills.. (but you keep coming to the forums and complaining about bombing strategies)

Yea yea, all those bads...
Most people actually killed such groups, but when this happens, the zerg ball is unorganized 100% of the time. They are just there (luckily), but still often kill much more then die.

Francescolg wrote: »

Or, you believe in "Purge" and think that the skill alone, one/two healers spamming purge, should always help vs. coordinated siege fire. In fact, they help a little bit, but they do not "help enough".

Purge is uncapped. You may need to hit the group 3+3 (or much more) times the group to hit everyone with your effects (heal debuff, burning), and then 1-2 purge will remove all the effects. 1-2 person can mostly negate 5++ of yours, thanks to the AoE caps. So by itself, helps a tonn.

Francescolg wrote: »

Actually, you can win with 3 vs 30, you can be in a bomb-group, you can even win vs a bomb-group just by oil, just by using oil-catapult to cut the end of the tail, hea-debuffing with meatbag, combined with fire-dmg, or effective positioning of healers, even healing through walls is a viable strategy, etc. etc., what matters is: strategy (!), combined ultimates, combos, the correct use of skills/shields (rotation) and skills like rememberance, as well some other decisive ultimate skills, just to mention: Negate Magic. Beside that: oil, oil, oil and more oil, more caltrops, more meatbag, more negates, more dedicated specs (non-main healer purger for example). Also very important is ultimate-regeneration and to put people with a higher ultimate reg in the first place in ultimate-rotations!

Notice, you are mentioning siege weapons. Guess why they are not totally useless? Higher AoE cap. Sadly, the bigger the blob is, the less usefull they become.
So...
Oil catapult is negated by Maneuver. Its a huge AoE, with higher then 6 AoE cap.
This is still your best bet to kill some of them.
Heal debuff is purged instantly. Fire dmg hits, then the burning is purged instantly.
Combined ultimates. Zerg ball will do it better and more, since they will fill it faster.
Rememberance: 2-3 dd can negate the heals. Add a few (like 10, they have the numbers, and in that spot) to melt in a second.
Negate Magic. Good zerg balls are immune to it, or break free in the second it effects them. Btw AoE cap is 6. 6 out of 30? 40? More? Works well vs unorganized zergs.
And hitting with all those sieges, while the ball is moving with Maneuver buffed speed... sure... You will miss often. You may cant turn your sieges fast enough.
So in the end, 3v30... laughable. They just need to use 1 button. You know which one? The attack button. Yes, light attack.

Francescolg wrote: »

All those "higher strategies" (which they ain't) need two things: a skilled leader calling for them, and a correct specialization of each group member, diversified roles/specs: for healers: one doing aoe healing/spot/gtae healing + one healing dmg-spikes, etc. There are many "roles" a class may fullfill in a group, like stamina-reggen templars, etc.
If you force your templar to purge all the time, his "real specialty" and other very strong templar builds, will have their effectiveness cut 50%+!

I aggree. These are not "higher strategies". We already use them. And who else uses all these? The zerg blobs. Yep. Shocking. They have people to heal, purge,different buffs, refill stamina, etc.

Francescolg wrote: »

It seems to me that some negative posts here come from people who still haven't found a good pvp group (as usual). Again: search for guild / pvp groups that use Teamspeak. Doing PvP then right way is more difficult than pve, needs more skill and if you go into main chat and type LFG DO NOT expext any form of "higher strategy" and DO NOT come to the forums and cry about it..

The only disturbing thing about bomb-squads is the lag-/crash-causing and some spammable skills that are beeing modified within the next patches, nothing else! If you do not understand pvp-mechanics, skill/ultimate rotation, which shields to take, that it is not all about AoE/Impulse Spamming, etc. etc., please try other games that suit better to you!

After all, your skilled group can kill unorganized, or a lot less organized zerg balls (with using 12+ AoE capped attacks). Hurray. But when you actually face with a "good" zergball, you can show them the way to your flags. As time goes, more and more such groups will born.

Shaun98ca2

Maybe we simply need better consumables like siege equipment to deal with the zergballs. Something VERY specific to the situation that makes sense lore wise as well as dealing with the zerg stacking situation.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@Francescolg‌ and you didn't read the threads.
The point isn't that stacking groups are too strong or unkillable. It doesn't matter.

The point is that despite still being killable, there was nothing better for them to do aside from stacking.

There is one move that is always the best: To stack.

The game would be objectively better if there was a meaningful choice between tactics, it would have a higher skill ceiling and more variety.
Everything else is an happy side effect.

Ifthir_ESO

MrMT wrote: »

It's absurd.

You can say this about so many things with ESO PvP, its so frustrating.

You can tell the developers at ESO do not PvP all the time.

Which is fine, if PvP isn't your MMO's entire planned "endgame".

Sleep

1. Build your own train
2. Pray to the Mighty Lag

synnerman

Once again another week goes by without a single response from a Dev. Me and a guildie even asked on the twitch stream several times last night and it was ignored again. They even had a section in the stream to address "Hot topics" on this forum and this thread alone has had 5.6k views and still nothing.

However they did mention the already mentioned werewolf alterations so I suppose that was a hotter topic than the thing that is driving players away from PvP and the game .

Soulharvester

Opposing force is greater, organized and coming at you in a straight line?

Simple solution, run away!

Your not going to kill them unless your in an organized outfit and everyone knows what each person job is, outside of that, deny them kills.

Sanct16

1. A good bombgroup has multiple ppl spamming purges (the morph that heals 22% max life on dispell => 660 heal). This negates every siegeweapon shot at them and I doubt that your sieges all hit at the exact same time so they can't purge/heal between the hits. Of course sieging them is better than not sieging them especially if there are allies attacking them, but its far from being as easy as you want to make it sound.
2. Removing AoE caps would definetly help with being able to kill the blob. Lets assume they have 3k hp in average. So with a 6 ppl group you would need to do 500 dps per person in one second to nearly instashoot them. They won't be able to react at all. Damage ulti + AoE should bring you above 500 even without crits.
The problem with this might be that one player will be able to kill a raid standing at some flag even easier.

Itoq

With player collision rubber banding could get ugly.

A revamp to the targeting system in ESO could greatly improve game play. Particularly group or sub-group focused targeting.

Even if you stand off to the side or behind of a passing zerg it can be incredibly difficult for you and/or you and your group to focus fire on individuals (for a variety of game mechanic reasons.)

Lack of the ability to focus fire removes a great tool that smaller groups can use against bigger ones.

Without focused targeting the main answer then becomes to aoe instead of targeting and then you just get back to the which group can stay in blob and aoe faster, has the better aoe spells or has more players aoe'ing battle.

spinedoc

Koensol wrote: »

It's not zerballing that is ruining this game. It's the people that allways look for every gap or hole to exploit something. Just to win. Not to have fun.

That's how addiction works. There is always a "ding" to chase, that's how MMO's are built.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

You know the saying: "Don't hate the player, hate the game"

In this case, it is normal to play to win, and if a tactic is superior in all cases, then it is normal that players use it.

The game has to be fixed, and for that, aoe target caps need to be removed.