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Zerg trains are ruining this game. It's sad SAD
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Spangla✭✭✭✭For me the main problem with a zerg train comes when defending a keep.
At present the lag caused by the zerg prevents the defenders from adequately using oils effectively and it is very common for lag to occur that stops everyone receiving damage accurately - Yesterday I stood on the back flag spamming aoe in the middle of an enemy zerg train of at least 50 enemies. I only died 2 mins later from the rubberband effect. The same was applying to the zerg train who were being oiled from multiple pots above the flag and on the flag but they took no damage at the time only to receieve the damage later. Now whilst this is a problem in itself the real issue is that the lag does not effect the ability to capture the flag in the keep so there literally is 0 defence agaisnt this type of zerg ball who end up just taking the flags and taking no damage until they already own the keep!
So the 2 issues are
Lag it causes
Dealing with sheer numbers
Zerg trains out in the open world do not really bother me as they can just be avoided and in theory they should win any fight because they have more people - However when it comes to defending a keep with siege this issue needs to be addressed. Firstly the lag caused by it and secondly I feel siege needs to do more damage in general to the zerg ball. For instance if a guild Pours 8 oil pots simultaneously on the breech onto the zerg - everyone should die - period. No if's no buts every1. No amount of spam healing bs should be able to out heal that amount of damage.
Maybe oil pot damage should have no aoe cap. I realise the cap on siege is higher than normal but im sure there still is one.
Secondly maybe the damage an oil pot does should increase based on the amount of people it hits? So if it hits 1 person less damage - 30 people more damage to counter the effects of healing springs spam?
Dont know but something needs to be done because at the moment it is simplifying the tactics of this epic pvp game - which by the way zenimax is amazing! Something that is not said enough in my opinion. Good job on everything but stuff does need fixing as always with any game.0 -
semp3rfi✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »Easy way to stop the aoe trend. Give all aoes a cast time that also reduces move speed while casting. Like biting jabs. Being so mobile has let it get out of hand. Take that away then aoe zergs will be crawling along
biting jabs is a fantastic finisher after you deplete their stam and can cc the hell out of them, but when everyone is moving its no good at all. its so easy to miss because you are very slow and can barely turn, i only use it on cc or when flanking. so you are absolutely right about mobility but with aoe all instant casts, what can you do; your suggestion would in effect just be a major nerf.
that being the point.... there are bottlenecks in campaigns everywhere that see heavy traffic so even if AoE was to become immobile it would still be highly effective at creating killzone.
AoE train is a cheesy boring game style, there is no general focus fire, no targeting, no variation.
Powerful AoE is important in games, but not to the point it makes most everything else obsolete.
AoE is one of the biggest contributers to why melee is unviable in most group combat situations. (still, cap or no cap mobility or otherwise wont fix this)
Edited by semp3rfi on 27 August 2014 13:001 -
reften✭✭✭✭✭Easy way to stop the aoe trend. Give all aoes a cast time that also reduces move speed while casting. Like biting jabs. Being so mobile has let it get out of hand. Take that away then aoe zergs will be crawling along
best idea yet...Reften
Bosmer (Wood Elf)
Moonlight Crew (RIP), Misfitz (RIP), Victorem Guild
VR16 NB, Stam build, Max all crafts.
Azuras & Trueflame. Mostly PvP, No alts.
Semi-retired till the lag is fixed.
Love the Packers, Bourbon, and ESO...one of those will eventually kill me.2 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭
There was a time that some spells required deep concentration (stationary) and time to cast.
Bit like like that big heavy 2 hander takes time to swing.
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
bertenburnyb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »How about a change Cyrodiil so that characters have collision?
Would empower a lot of griefing such as blocking entrances, or doors or skyshards. Doesn't sound like a good idea at all.
Removing the AoE caps however, now that would add value to a lot of other spells. That would increase the skill level involved.
well how they implemented colission detection with npc's is terrible, its like the have a invisible wall around them, if they would make it more say GTA-like, that the radius is alot smaller, and you can even push npcs aside a bit (so you can get between 2 npcs what visually should be possible, even if its a squize, and they perform a sort of move-out-of-the-way-animation-with-annoyed-remark-thingie, not totally like gta with the agressive pushing out of the way)
now the squize would not work pvp wise, but with a lot smaller collision radius it *could work I think
Haze Ramoran Dunmer Dragonknight Tank/Dps – Smoked-Da-Herb Saxheel Templar Tank/Healer
Red Diamond, Protect us 'til the end (EU EP Thorn)0 -
Krinaman✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Spend a bit more time to look at barrier, and try to see it in the context of uncapped aoes.
I'm talking in the context of the current game.0 -
Spangla✭✭✭✭Friendly collisions maybe but not enemy collisions - Otherwise you could have 3 dragon nights blocking the breach and a zerg of healers behind them stopping anyone from entering lol0
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synnerman✭✭✭✭Can we have some comment from a dev on the impulse blob problem seeing as it was nearly a month ago when a dev informed us that the combat team was looking at this.. ANY INFO AT ALL PLS.4
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frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Spend a bit more time to look at barrier, and try to see it in the context of uncapped aoes.
I'm talking in the context of the current game.
But the context of the current game skews the value of healing/buffing abilities.
To find what is a reason to stack, you need to look at suspects on their own.
In our case, ESO without target caps, heals/buffs don't fare well on their own compared to damage dealing abilities.
Stacking would become a liability.
On the other hand, ESO with a target cap but without heals/buffs would still equate to xx% dodge chances.
Stacking would remain an advantage.
In the current game, ESO has both healing and a cap. There aren't any drawbacks. You aren't punished for stacking but rewarded.
It's possible to "tank" as a group without ever having to dodge.
Conclusion: Heal/buffs are not a reason to stack, but are buffed as a side product to the possibility to stack safely.0 -
Friendly collisions maybe but not enemy collisions - Otherwise you could have 3 dragon nights blocking the breach and a zerg of healers behind them stopping anyone from entering lol
Well, the common opinion is actually the opposite.
Having the ability to form a shield wall is usualy the selling point of player colisions.
And remember, you can knock up enemies in ESO, or make them pay stam to keep formation through blocking/immovable/cc break.
On the other hand, players tend to fear griefing and offer as a compromise no friendly colisions.
Since you can't harm a friendly, you can't pass him.
Which of course can easily be addressed with giving sneak walk the ability to go through friendlies.
Either way, any player colision would improve the game.
But a valid concern is performance wise.0 -
Krinaman✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »
To find what is a reason to stack, you need to look at suspects on their own.
We already went down this road before.
But I did that. Currently the game offers several reasons to stack. Healing, buffs, etc.
It doesn't offer any reason to not stack. One of those possible reasons is unlimited target caps. But there are countless others. Friendly fire, collision, reduced AP, damage, whatever when near a player, etc.
Conclusions:
1 -healing and buffs are most certainly a reason to stack. I don't know how you could possible argue otherwise.
2- The game has no reasons to not stack.
Solution: decrease the reasons to stack and/or increase the reasons to not stack. Certainly removing AOE caps is a possible solution. IMO - a solution that causes more problems than it fixes but a solution none the less. There are countless other solutions as well.2 -
trimsic_ESO wrote: »In ESO, you can chain cast PBAOE damage, without taking any risk, as long as you are under the protection of immovable.
It's so sad, so sad
With vampire, you can do it while invisible.
With streak, you can effectively teleport in, go invisible, wipe an entire raid, then teleport out without the slightest bit of personal risk.
It's absurd.
Yes you can do it to dumbb zergs but if you meet a premade that has a clue they will wipe the sorc like a fly on the wall.
Look at a few threads below this and you will see because of people like you that QQ they are fixxing/nerf streak good or bad IDC. Instead of unlimited ultima because streak is uncap it will be cap at 6, 6x6=36 per streak it will now take 3- 4 streaks.
The build will take more skill but still be in-place. To counter, you must negate + caltrop area or CC / 2 shot with a NB.
Smart Zergs, sorc poses no threat
Pug Zergs get wiped
Any cap should be removed = remove zerg pvp
Its what the player base wants and AT LEAST should make a server to test what the players want.0 -
ThyIronFist✭✭✭✭✭Need an update on this. Brian told us that a month ago there were active AE cap discussions going on with the dev team, can we have an update on this for the love of god?The Elder Zergs Online
Sainur Ironfist - DK - EU - Ebonheart Pact
Retired2 -
@Krinaman
1) Healing and buffing don't stand on their own without the target cap.
Do you deny that?
Is it not true that unrestricted aoes would both outsustain and outburst healing and buffing?
If stacking for a certain reason, and the drawbacks outweight the benefits, then it is not a valid reason to stack.
2) You are correct.
The game in its current state has no reasons not to stack.
But the current meta of stacking has appeared after the reveal of the caps.
There can be no better solution to a problem than reversing what caused it.
And friendly fire, player collisions, and the other solutions you listed are just innefective bandaid fixes.
The drive to stack would still be there.
Sure you may need to forget about pbaoes or be physicaly able to stack less people, but the damage mitigation and added security would still be worth it.
Not to mention that it would still not address the other issues of capped aoes: Introduction of randomness in a competitive game and unintuitiveness.
The only drawback of removing the aoe caps is that defending an inner keep may become harder.
But that may be compensated by having longer and more interesting openfield battles.0 -
Krinaman✭✭✭You say, look at the suspects on their own but then refuse to do it.
Remove AOEs from the game entirely. Heck remove all player damage and add a poison cloud that hits everyone for damage regardless of being stacked or spread. Is it better to stack or spread for healing/buffs? That's looking at the suspect on it's own.
I never stated the other ideas were good or bad just pointing out that other things can deter stacking as you seem fixated on only AOE caps.
The drawback of the uncapped AOEs is that the FOTM zergball groups will mow down the people playing "normally" even faster. Zerging pugs will just get decimated by those groups.
"Is it not true that unrestricted aoes would both outsustain and outburst healing and buffing?"
That would completely depend on the skills after they were uncapped. But if everything is just uncapped and left alone my guess without trying to crunch all the numbers is healing and buffing will probably win. I say that based on single players who shield stack being nearly unkillable by multiple opponents.
I have no doubt healing/buffs would win out if uncapping means things can stack. I.E. barrier, etc.0 -
Come on, you're smarter than taking things this literaly.
You know full well I meant to take the suspects independently from each other, not alone in a total vacuum.
It would be silly to try to analyse things without the rest of the game context.
In ESO, we don't have poison clouds that hit everyone, but aoes with fairly limited sizes and specific damage to cost ratios.
Thanks to website like esohead, we have all the statistics necessary to make informed decisions.
There are, as far as I can tell, only two suspected incentives to stack.
Target caps and, to you, healing/buffing.
If you could find other reasons, then we could discuss them as well.
The other changes you suggested are neither good nor bad simply because they are not solutions. They are small limitations, not drawbacks.
The same way having the crown on the compass lowers the barrier of entry, friendly fire raises it, but the rides remains worth entering.
There is no discussing that the target cap is "a", if not "the", cause of stacking.
If it isn't from all the min-maxing and decision theory analysis, then the fact stacking became a thing after it was revealed is enough of a tip off.
But now we're discussing if healing/buffing is another reason to stack.
In my previous post, I said that if we were to remove only healing/buffing, there would still be stacking due to the target cap. You seemed to understand that.
However, you disagree that removing only the target cap would not prevent stacking because you are confident that healing is strong enough to tank damage thrown at a stacking group.
So let's crunch the numbers together.
All numbers I'm taking is from my character which is a stam/magicka hybrid healer/finisher.
But even with specialised builds, the difference should remain of the same order. Perhaps going more towards damage aoes being even stronger.
Damage abilities:
Lightning flood lvl1: 6m radius, 72dmg every 0.5 sec for 5 ticks, 299 mana
Has 380dmg synergy and chances to proc desintegrate.
Volcanic rune lvl 4: 3m radius, 284dmg, 324 mana
Triggers might of the guild (+20% spell damage) and has knock up and stun
Shooting Star lvl 4: no known radius, 830 to target and 415 splash, 213 ultimate
Knock back for all affected.
Healing/buffing abilities:
Healing Springs lvl 4: 8m radius, 94hp per sec for 3 ticks, 335 mana.
Gives back 26magicka per target affected.
Blessing of Protection lvl 4: 20x4m frontal area, 232hp, 361mana
Buffs 750 armor and spell resist for 8sec.
Barrier not leveled: 12m radius, 715 shield, 213 ulitmate.
I don't have data for templars, but from a low level templar alt I have with resto staff& light armor full heal, the templar abilities always are far more expensive per hp than the resto staff.
Some abilities even have cast time making their "burst" heal delayed by a couple seconds.
Rushed ritual being prohibitively expensive to compensate its instant nature.
You can take a look around esohead and check the base values of abilities and will notice the same trends.
By then, you should get the idea: The only sustainable heal(hp per mp) is Healing springs but it is very slow (hp per second).
The forms that are instant cost more hp per mp than damage dealing abilities.
The faster they heal, the more they cost.
In the context we are discussing, without target caps, if a group stands in a 8m radius formation, it will either succumb to the initial burst, or will quickly lose out on the attrition war.
Perhaps if everyone was healer in the group and the opposing force had an healthy mix of dps/healers, they could resist longer, but they wouldn't dish out any damage.
Either way, a stacking group would not be able to compete with a spread out group. They'll deal less damage and take more damage.
Even barrier stacking isn't workable. It takes only three non ultimate attacks to break one layer of it. Meaning that the stacking group would need to generate enough ultimate to cast it again every 2 seconds. And the attacking group would still have their ultimate at their disposal.
It would just delay the inevitable a bit more, which is its purpose: to help support/withstand one charge.
And as a side note: I believe I've read that barrier is not stacking anymore on PTS. In my opinion, it isn't a necessary nerf and should get reverted when target caps get removed, but it makes it even less viable.
Healing and buffing are viable in the current context of ESO only because they have less damage to deal with thanks to the target cap.
Smart healing let 100% of the group heal the 6 guys that have been damaged.
It is not a reason to stack.
The only know cause left is the general target cap. (the one not in tooltips)
And removing it would fix other unintuitive behaviors and reduce randomness.Edited by frosth.darkomenb16_ESO on 29 August 2014 12:451 -
ThyIronFist✭✭✭✭✭I raged out just now - we captured a keep, and a few minutes later it was being counter sieged. A group of about 20-30 impulse-wanking smurfs rushed in and went for the flags. We had 2 meatbag catapults constantly firing, we had a few oil pots, we had a Sorc that literally dropped a Negate almost every [snip] second on top of them. Some Fragmented Shields and Standards of Might here and there, Supernova, Veil of Blades... and they werent even taking damage. Complete utter bullsht. One massive train of unstoppable wankers.
Absolutely pathetic. ZOS get your crap together and do something. Brian Wheeler said there were active discussions going on about this 1 month ago.
ZOS doesn't care and the PvPers that don't want to be part of a zergball (what's left of them at least) are suffering.
Fix this or give us an update, else me and some guildies will be gone very soon.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_LeroyW on 30 August 2014 10:29The Elder Zergs Online
Sainur Ironfist - DK - EU - Ebonheart Pact
Retired1 -
ThyIronFist✭✭✭✭✭Imagine the Imperial City with zergball trains like that. I am sure it will be fun in all those tight corridors and sewers.The Elder Zergs Online
Sainur Ironfist - DK - EU - Ebonheart Pact
Retired0 -
synnerman✭✭✭✭I actually think we are wasting our breath in here its like the Twilight Zone for posts that ZoS don't want to be seen and the Dev for this section is in another dimension. I have asked every week for the last 4 weeks for feedback on this crap and still its just ignored.
Just keep ignoring it Brian or Mr invisible dev of this section and my bank account will start ignoring the sub.1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How about the fact that zerg balls cause lag.
Everyone by now has seen this...I posted about it a while back.. even made videos on it..
You can have a ton of people all around not stacking casting freely, the second a zerg ball forms up and goes to one spot and starts spamming abilities, the area and sometimes the entire campaign just lags to death.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Krinaman✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Come on, you're smarter than taking things this literaly.
You know full well I meant to take the suspects independently from each other, not alone in a total vacuum.
It would be silly to try to analyse things without the rest of the game context.
No actually it would be silly to analyse things like you are doing. I'll ask a simpler question. Is it better to cast a barrier on one person in your group or 20? Even in your no cap world it would be a reason to stack. The logic would still be:
Should I stack for buffs?:
Pros: I can heal/buff more people
Con: I can get hit with uncapped AOEs
People will then weigh the Pros vs the Cons and make a decision. The point being that it's still a reason to stack even if you have more reasons to not stack.
I really don't know what I'm supposed to do with your list of skills. I honestly have zero desire to crunch numbers based on conjecture. The reality is if the numbers still favor healing you could just nerf healing. IMO the game would be an unplayable disaster at that point but obviously we disagree on that point.
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Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Friendly collisions maybe but not enemy collisions - Otherwise you could have 3 dragon nights blocking the breach and a zerg of healers behind them stopping anyone from entering lol
Enemy Collision would be a preferable circumstance then what exists now. Small numbers properly supported should be able to defend narrow corridors. It's an ageless truth that should be viable in ESO as well. You should not be able to merely rush behind an enemy line without interference or obstacle.
It would also provide opportunity for ZOS to incorporate skills, for example, from lets say the NB tree become somewhat incorporeal while in shadow cloak in order to get behind or into the enemy.Edited by Vizier on 30 August 2014 19:341 -
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Come on, you're smarter than taking things this literaly.
You know full well I meant to take the suspects independently from each other, not alone in a total vacuum.
It would be silly to try to analyse things without the rest of the game context.
No actually it would be silly to analyse things like you are doing. I'll ask a simpler question. Is it better to cast a barrier on one person in your group or 20? Even in your no cap world it would be a reason to stack. The logic would still be:
Should I stack for buffs?:
Pros: I can heal/buff more people
Con: I can get hit with uncapped AOEs
People will then weigh the Pros vs the Cons and make a decision. The point being that it's still a reason to stack even if you have more reasons to not stack.
Should I enter an oven?
Pros: I won't be cold anymore
Cons: I'll die.
I should weight the pros and cons, but I guess that not being cold is a valid reason to go into the oven.
Wrong. If something has more cons than pros, it isn't a meaningful choice.
It isn't part of the gameplay.I really don't know what I'm supposed to do with your list of skills. I honestly have zero desire to crunch numbers based on conjecture. The reality is if the numbers still favor healing you could just nerf healing. IMO the game would be an unplayable disaster at that point but obviously we disagree on that point.
And those abilities you don't know what to do about are just the proof that the numbers are favoring damages by a fair margin.
How you can be so firm about something based on beliefs only?
This "number crunching" you refuse to do takes basicaly 5 minutes to find the numbers online. There even are complete calculators out there, or you could just press k in game and look for yourself.
Or simply read the pre-chewed bits I posted.
It would have saved the both of us hours of discussion.
Either you would have been convinced, or you would have found evidence to contradict me.
Eitherways, It would have replaced with facts all those "conjectures" you operate on.
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eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »How about the fact that zerg balls cause lag.
Everyone by now has seen this...I posted about it a while back.. even made videos on it..
You can have a ton of people all around not stacking casting freely, the second a zerg ball forms up and goes to one spot and starts spamming abilities, the area and sometimes the entire campaign just lags to death.
I know. You can have massive zerg fights just fine in ESO, as in hundreds of players at the same place. But as soon as there's more than 2-3 blobs around the entire server will lag out, than crash.
I even crash on the other side of the map these days, purely based on the fact that loads of blobs are fighting around a keep somewhere. They can be far south while I'm up at Fort Dragonclaw trying to avoid them. There's no escape.
As soon as one blobs arrive, opposing faction is forced to make their own train to counter, than a third blobs arrives = everyone on the entire campaign is sent back to loading screen. That, if anything, should make ZoS reconsider the current combat design.2 -
Vaelen✭✭✭If they made Melee and Stamina builds more viable it would be less aoe zerg-mentality for sure...0 -
Krinaman✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »
Wrong. If something has more cons than pros, it isn't a meaningful choice.
It isn't part of the gameplay.
Huh? If something has more cons then people will (usually) chose not to do it. That doesn't mean there isn't pros.
I can't believe we are even having this conversation.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »How you can be so firm about something based on beliefs only?
I'm not firm about it at all. I stated that already. Go back and reread the part where I said "my guess". Here what I said:
"That would completely depend on the skills after they were uncapped. But if everything is just uncapped and left alone my guess without trying to crunch all the numbers is healing and buffing will probably win."frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »This "number crunching" you refuse to do takes basicaly 5 minutes to find the numbers online.
I'm not doing the number crunching because the removal of AOE caps can be implemented with an nearly infinite number of variations. Trying to prove anything based on that is a complete an utter waste of time. For example you claim the healing will lose the attrition war. The problem is you ignore the healing springs returns mana. What happens when you cast that on a stack of 50 if it's uncapped? The short answer is, your healers never run out of mana and can spam the "expensive" skills endlessly all of which will be uncapped as well.
The point being is that it will take far longer than 5 minutes to get all the numbers and think of every possible situation.
As I also stated either scenario is possible based on the implementation. I also pointed out that if healing was stronger you could simply balance it so it wasn't. So doing the number crunching is completely and utterly pointless. I already agree that the game could be made to where AOE damage outweighed the advantages of stacking. But like I said, the game, IMO, would be an unplayable disaster at that point.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Eitherways, It would have replaced with facts all those "conjectures" you operate on.
As uncapped AOE's don't exist in this game anything we talk about is conjecture. So no it wouldn't replace anything with facts at all.
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frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »
Wrong. If something has more cons than pros, it isn't a meaningful choice.
It isn't part of the gameplay.
Huh? If something has more cons then people will (usually) chose not to do it. That doesn't mean there isn't pros.
I can't believe we are even having this conversation.
We definitely shouldn't.
An action that is possible but has an overall negative impact is not worth discussing. As I said in the bit you quoted, it is not a meaningful choice.
If pros are outweighted by cons, the pros are irelevant and might as well not exist as there are no meaningfull way to exploit them.
Such situation is commonly refered as a non viable choice and gets discarded in decision theory discussions.
Bottom line is, we shouldn't discuss healing as a reason to stack.
Yet here we are, still discussing healing based on a guess of yours.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »How you can be so firm about something based on beliefs only?
I'm not firm about it at all. I stated that already.
It feels firm to me.
Not at all.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »This "number crunching" you refuse to do takes basicaly 5 minutes to find the numbers online.
I'm not doing the number crunching because the removal of AOE caps can be implemented with an nearly infinite number of variations.
We're discussing something very specific that can really be implemented in one single way:
"Every aoe ability that has no mention of a cap in its tooltip can now hit all targets in its radius."
Every other info we have about the game stays unchanged and relevant.
There are no variations to think about, just this one alteration to the game context.The problem is you ignore the healing springs returns mana. What happens when you cast that on a stack of 50 if it's uncapped? The short answer is, your healers never run out of mana and can spam the "expensive" skills endlessly all of which will be uncapped as well.
I listed this ability and took it into consideration. I even mentionned it for its sustainability but slow heal per second.
To break even, you would need to hit 14 targets. So yes, it could be cast indefinitely for free and even some mana gains in your context of a stack of 50. (a bit under 2 additional spells worth of mana)
But while you cast that one spell giving 72 hp, the enemy dishes out over 250dmg.
Even those 2 bonus spells you can cast for free still heal less than the incoming damage.
Each second stacking, even with the 50 healing, you would lose hp without dishing damage.
You would lose the attrition war.
That's your opinion, and I respect that, but how would it make it a disaster?I already agree that the game could be made to where AOE damage outweighed the advantages of stacking. But like I said, the game, IMO, would be an unplayable disaster at that point.
You said previously that you didn't enjoy to play in a stacking group.
It felt like you enjoyed spread out fights but believed that healing would still motivate stacking.
Just trying to understand.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Eitherways, It would have replaced with facts all those "conjectures" you operate on.
As uncapped AOE's don't exist in this game anything we talk about is conjecture. So no it wouldn't replace anything with facts at all.
Maybe it is a translation problem.
To my knowledge, conjectures are estimates but calculations are facts.
If we set input parameters to a context, and have the necessary data, we can make calculation based on a variety of values.
For instance, ability A does D damage. With the number of targets hit, we can calculate the overall damage.
For the amount of potential targets we can take the area multiplied by the player density.
The player density can be calculated with the amount of players divided by the area of the desired stack(8m radius for stacking, 20m for spread out)
Once we do these for healing and damage abilities, we can compare which one is strongest in either context and make conclusions.
All of these are calculations.
And they can be used to accurately predict player behaviors.
Of course players make mistakes, but the general trend is that most players try to play correctly.0 -
Krinaman✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Such situation is commonly refered as a non viable choice and gets discarded in decision theory discussions.
Bottom line is, we shouldn't discuss healing as a reason to stack.
That is some of the most convoluted logic I ever heard. Seriously.
You can't know if the pros outweigh the cons unless you consider them both.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Every other info we have about the game stays unchanged and relevant.
There are no variations to think about, just this one alteration to the game context.
Sure there are. Every single build is different. Different armor sets. Different combinations of skills. If such calculations were easy to do no game would ever come out being unbalanced.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »I listed this ability and took it into consideration. I even mentionned it for its sustainability but slow heal per second.
To break even, you would need to hit 14 targets. So yes, it could be cast indefinitely for free and even some mana gains in your context of a stack of 50. (a bit under 2 additional spells worth of mana)
But while you cast that one spell giving 72 hp, the enemy dishes out over 250dmg.
Even those 2 bonus spells you can cast for free still heal less than the incoming damage.
Each second stacking, even with the 50 healing, you would lose hp without dishing damage.
You would lose the attrition war.
Against what? Another stack of 50? If everyone is spread out playing "normally" the blob still rolls through them. Sure blob on blob one of the two blobs wins (assuming the server doesn't crash). Otherwise the group of 50 rolls up on the few in range melt them and heal whatever uncapped damage they did. Most likely they won't even get through the shields. The point being that it doesn't stop stacking because it still has a massive advantage over not stacking. And yes that advantage is healing and buffs. Even with uncapped AOE's the only way to compete is to form your own blob.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »That's your opinion, and I respect that, but how would it make it a disaster?
Primarily it doesn't solve the stacking problem as I just showed.
Additionally it unbalances the game even more as AOEs become much more powerful. AOE's will be the must have skills of the game (even more than they are now). Taking keeps will become a nightmare due to all the choke points and tight quarters.
But the biggest reason of all is that even if people stopped stacking it doesn't fix the problem most people are complaining about.
One group calling for removing blobs are the players who are out there solo following the crowd. Playing "normally" with one side sieging the other defending. Then one of the "elite" groups rolls through wiping one entire side while leaving the tent. Let's them all set up again and does it again. The problem is even unstacked the "elite" group is going to roll through them. The real problem here is the game is so unbalanced that unless you are running the FOTM build you don't have much of a chance. Note that the biggest reason the "elite" are elite is because of their builds.
Uncapping AOEs does help the second group calling for them. That would be those "elite" guilds wanting to be able to mow down the large pug zerg balls even faster. Of course the large pug zerg balls are a counter to the "elite" 20ish man zerg balls. The worse part about this is these folks will be the first ones complaining the game is too easy and boring if they got what they wanted because the game would be even more unbalanced.
Actual solutions would include balancing the game so the FOTM builds aren't so OP compared to the other builds. Change AP to be based on the "skill" of the other player. A very simple system would be each player starts out being worth 100 points. Every killing blow they increase 100 points. When they die, they go back to 100. This will discourage the pug farming we see. Elite groups will haunt other elite groups instead of avoiding them (why fight the elite group when you can farm pugs making faster AP?).
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