Zerg trains are ruining this game. It's sad SAD

Koensol

It's not zerballing that is ruining this game. It's the people that allways look for every gap or hole to exploit something. Just to win. Not to have fun.

Garion

Jaxom wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Moved this thread to Combat & Skill Lines.

I think this is more appropriate under the Alliance War section. The discussion isnt about the skills specifically more the tactic and how it affects Cyrodiil.

Wheeler has explained in a previous discussion that it is not the responsibility of the AvA team to decide on AOE caps (which is what this thread is fundamentally about) and so, for it to get more exposure, it makes more sense for it to be in the combat section (as the combat team are responsible for capping AOE).

Ghenra

Remove all AoE's and make this game skilled.

Kego

Won't work. You would have to redesign every public dungeon as well as every instanced dungeon in this game.

Lorkhan

AOE CC spells with no cap = everybody using immovable

Stannum

removing AoE cap will provocate more zergballs. Now in mass pvp single AoE makes little dmg, if caps will be removed single AoE will do fulldmg. So all fighting tactic will be zerg AoE.
+1 for PvP collisions (with stunned & knoked players transparent for moving)
also for block working only in 180deg sector
More tactic for tactic God!

ThyIronFist

There was an idea on these forums not too long ago, about a campaign without AoE. I would join that in an instant.

They should also make a campaign specifically made for blobs, and give it a special name.

Rune_Relic

Think I have a solution.

People have offered collision to force people to spread out.
But the point of doing this is to spread out the MAX damage source and Max heal target.

So instead of spreading the players to spread out the damge and heal...
..simply cap the max heal and max damage that can exist in each 1m2.

This is an area or cell cap.
50 people might be able to do 50x500 damage...but if they all exist on the same 1m2 and the area cap is 500 damage per m2 then those 50 people cant do anymore than 500 damage in total (the server would drop all damage over 500 until the next second or scale the output to 500/combined requested damage. This could free up server load by simply dropping masses of AoE).

So counter to removing the aoe cap....this is the exact opposite. These people can now no longer be a death train because they are too clustered to do any damage.

You can also apply the same to heals per m2. So the healers might be giving 50x100 health but the area cap might be 100/m2. This means only 100 health will be applied to those 50 people (or 100/6 for 6 people with smart heal).

So again ..counter to aoe caps being removed. Enforcing them over an area with an area cap has killed off the zerg balls ability to both mass heal and mass kill.

The only way then to get the most healing and damage out of aoe is to spread out both your healers and attackers. This then makes them viable to be picked off 1v1

Stannum

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Think I have a solution.

So instead of spreading the players to spread out the damge and heal...
..simply cap the max heal and max damage that can exist in each 1m2.

This is an area or cell cap.

lol
So zergball becomes allmost immune to AoE. Great defence tactic no matter how much enemy plaers with AoE or siege weapons are on the othe side they will not do more then 10hp damage to our ball

NerfEverything

It amazes me how many people in this thread can't grasp the concept of AoE caps encouraging Zerg balling. Remove AoE caps and the zerg balls will stop. It is very simple. Removing the cap will have no impact on the damage output of a zerg ball. It will remove the passive damage mitigation of the zerg ball. This is a no brainer. It is not difficult to understand.

Rune_Relic

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Think I have a solution.

So instead of spreading the players to spread out the damge and heal...
..simply cap the max heal and max damage that can exist in each 1m2.

This is an area or cell cap.

lol
So zergball becomes allmost immune to AoE. Great defence tactic no matter how much enemy plaers with AoE or siege weapons are on the othe side they will not do more then 10hp damage to our ball

eh ?

Think you read the wrong message my friend. Although I am often crap at getting ideas across lol.

1.
Outgoing damage is cell capped.
Incoming heals is cell capped.
2.
Incoming damage is normal
Outgoing heals is normal.

So I am in a ball sending damage - this is cell capped as it exceeds the cap limit.
I am in a ball receiving heals - this is cell capped as it exceeds the cap limit.

I am in a spread group sending damage - this is not capped as I am below the cap limit.
I am in a spread group receiving healing - this is not capped as I am below the cap limit.

Hence if you cluster together too tight...the outgoing damage is limited or the incoming heals is limited. You are wasting more and more resources and doing less and less damage the more you cluster.

So if 50 people occupy the space of 1 persons (1m2) then they can output no more damage and receive no more healing than 1 person which is shared between all 50 people. So in effect.... 1 person could wipe out 50 if they all stand in the same spot...except for the fact they have 50x the health of 1 person so will take a lot of damage

Skafsgaard

Im not sure how exactly an AoE cap removal would effect the game, but Im pretty sure it would be abused.

I, like others in here, think another mechanic is needed here.

I like some options some people have mentioned

1) friendly fire
2) player collisions (friend & foe)

Now, friendly fire would probably not be the best idea (have you ever played a game with one?). At least some heavy gameside enforcements must be put in place but still, a lame option like a DC logging his AD alt and dropping a nova on a critical siege or battle. Let's scrap friendly fire.

Now, collisions seems interesting. Not only would it make zergballing difficult, but actually change it to (if you want to do something togehter) formations. Im sure no one would whine on forums being taken down by a well organized formation (2 handers front, DW/sneakers circle around flanking, archers/mages/healers at the back with some who protects them. That's cool, and if I ran into that I would say, Well played and not omfg zergballing noobs


However, collisions can also grief but some suggestions about a mechanic to avoid that can easily be put in place (see Age of Conan reply - brillaint).

Actually, the more I think about it collisions would probably save the game for me (and I only pvp).

Tarkit

5 heavy armour to use immovable

Daethz

fredthementenrb18_ESO wrote: »

AOE CC spells with no cap = everybody using immovable

ZOS, no aoe stuns or ccs please, thank you.

Elsonso

NerfEverything wrote: »

It amazes me how many people in this thread can't grasp the concept of AoE caps encouraging Zerg balling. Remove AoE caps and the zerg balls will stop. It is very simple. Removing the cap will have no impact on the damage output of a zerg ball. It will remove the passive damage mitigation of the zerg ball. This is a no brainer. It is not difficult to understand.

The AoE caps and zergballs go hand in hand. Eliminate one and the need for the other goes away. Logically, it does not matter which happens first. Practically....

MartinXKid

I've been reading the forum about this issue and I never fully grasp why there was ever an AOE cap? I mean it's the players in the zergball's fault if they ever group up so tightly that they've wiped out by only a couple of AEO's.

If there is not enough heals to support the whole group well to bad for them no?
Even if there is more AOE heals made then damaging AOEs (Let's say everyone in the group are AOE healing each other in a ball) then they would simply be too busy healing then doing damage.
Add them AOE CCs and Immovable with 5 heavy pieces requirement et le tour est joué!
But again, I never fully grasp why there is a cap and so I could be missing something..

Edit: Made some corrections.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

While I will agree most above, the whole issue resides on a single ability.

Pulsar. Replace the damn thing and it's morphs, and we will be ok.
Is too powerful for a game that we do not have any other resistance but blocking.

Because Spell Resistance is pathetic to boot since even an average magicka user like myself, has 5000 spell penetration with 2 light armour parts. (The Spell resistance cap is hard to get more than 2200).

c0rp

Jaxom wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Moved this thread to Combat & Skill Lines.

I think this is more appropriate under the Alliance War section. The discussion isnt about the skills specifically more the tactic and how it affects Cyrodiil.

He is directing the issue to the combat team. They are the ones that need to fix this *** issue apparently.

c0rp

Awdwyn wrote: »

Friendly fire aoe & siege weapons. More tactics.

Friendly fire solves the issue pretty damn well doesnt it? Its way too hardcore for the casual ESO crowd though unfortunately. i would love this though, would be great.

Jaxom

c0rp wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Moved this thread to Combat & Skill Lines.

I think this is more appropriate under the Alliance War section. The discussion isnt about the skills specifically more the tactic and how it affects Cyrodiil.

He is directing the issue to the combat team. They are the ones that need to fix this *** issue apparently.

Yeah, I saw his response in another thread after i posted mine. I understand where he is coming from, though, it's a bit of a hybrid issue since this only occurs in Cyrodiil.

Wreuntzylla

Just make it so progress in PvP requires holding multiple objectives at the same time.

The following is an example. I am not stumping the idea - I am just putting an example out there that mashes together solutions other games have used to break up the zergball that doesn't involve removing an aoe cap completely. I'm kind of mystified as to why people haven't proposed alternate solution not involving the cap - it isn't likely that the cap is going anywhere. People seem to hate getting blown up by 1/10 the number of attackers every single time they go out. So, the example is to stimulate conversation about alternatives.

I'm using lore related ways to do it solely because ESO won't have things implemented that are to far from lore.

In some dungeons you have those focus crystals you have to align to have a beam of light hit the door before you can open the door. Put a few towers with crystals around keeps and make the keeps easier to enter based on the number of points held, it being impossible if no towers are held (or maybe implement for greater than 20 players in the area). Maybe attach a percentage of the population of the attackers to the holding. Make it easy by having the tower glow different colors indicating how close you are to having enough people in the area.

Give the defending alliance a similar amount of points inside the keep that make it harder to knock the door down but that are less effective than the towers - the doors just open if no defending points are held within X minutes of meeting the tower requirements. Make the radius of "holding" the tower big enough so that each tower can scrum with a corresponding defending point. Although this opens up the possibility of premades rolling towers, premades in the other alliance will have a role in beating them down - every style of play will have a role. Put a respawn point closer to the keeps to keep the system rolling.

Ward the roadways and objectives so that the aoe cap only applies within the warded area. Make the warded roads the longest path between points. If the zergball decides to take a shortcut, they lose the AoE cap.

Xsorus

Unless you are specifically running more then 6 and stacking, if they removed AOE caps you would not notice.

Rylana runs in an

Rylana wrote: »

synnerman wrote: »

Guys will some of you actually read some of the AoE cap discussions. The cap protects the blob because only six of them are hit at a time and the heals and synergies bring those 6 back up very quickly.
With no cap the damage would hit all of the blob and they have 2 choices ...Die in a blob or spread out.

Except for if you remove the cap, the pure damage output all around said blob is going to be so high all of the time that no one can actually get in there to hit them at all.

People dont think about this part. You want to walk into a stack of 24 aoes that WILL all hit you as you go in?

It is too late to save zergbusting in this game. It has been too late for about three months. You either bring a bigger gun or you sit on the edges, because now that the playstyle is so deeply ingrained into people, it isnt going to change.

All removing the caps will do is make the ball stronger. But keep lying to yourself thinking your 12 man bust group is going to do anything beyond die instantly the moment they jump in if the caps are removed.

Not exactly.

Unless people are specifically running in a group of 6 or more and stacking, They would not notice the change.

The only people who would actually notice the change are actual stacks of 6 or more groups... mostly zergs and zerg balls.

Also saying that it'll make those groups stronger is rather silly...Because it wouldn't....Because the second they start stacking up...Someone is going to sneak in and bomb them because they don't always run around casting Impulse.

Also last i checked, didn't you specifically run in a Zerg Ball group?

Krinaman

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Also saying that it'll make those groups stronger is rather silly...Because it wouldn't....Because the second they start stacking up...Someone is going to sneak in and bomb them because they don't always run around casting Impulse.

Unless you only uncap offensive AOE's it will, of course, make them stronger. Frag shield for all, healing springs for all, rapid regen for all, and on and on.

Your one man bomb squad will come in hit impulse a couple times before 1 person in the stack of 50 pushes frag shield and the guy blows himself up with 10k-20k damage

Troponin

I experienced PvP for the first time last night, and all I have to say is "WTF!". Basically, you have a group of about 10-15 people grouped together, pushing forward. All of them are AoEing. Then you have a group of around 15-20 people behind them, AoEing on top of that first group, making it impossible to get in to range. So basically, the best strat is for a majority of players to reroll to a class that has strong ranged AoEs or respec in to something they don't want to play.

This was basically the same tactic all night long.

synnerman

I've given up now , no communication on this matter apart from the waffle of we are discussing it.. Well when you have discussed it and put it right I will start paying again....GL guys

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Guys, this is 2014, there is enough literature and past exemples for players and devs alike to know that arbitrary target caps are nefast.
You should know better.

You should try to read up on all the discussions about the caps that already occured, perhaps you'll display less common misconceptions.

No,Zerg balls will not become stronger if aoe caps are removed.
First, zerg balls exist only due to the aoe cap. Without it, stacking is suicide. With it, any group of cap+1 has passive damage mitigation when stacking.
12 players get hit 50% of the time, 24 only 25% of the time.
This results in a numbers game.

Second: Without caps, people won't stack on purpose and would actually spread out.
This results in less targets available for aoes. Player distribution when non stacking is such that aoe abilities rarely hit 4 targets.
This, in turn, renders single abilities more viable than aoes in most situations.

Remember fights before the target cap was revealed, or even today when two large uncoordinated/noob forces meet.

There are absolutely no drawbacks to removing the target cap.
None.

TheBull

Bad thing is, Cyrodiil population is decreasing again. AoE is out of control.

trimsic_ESO

TheBull wrote: »

Bad thing is, Cyrodiil population is decreasing again. AoE is out of control.

The game provides every player with the ability to deal PBAOE damage without taking any risk; so every player does use this ability because it just rocks. Now see the result...

At least in DAoC when you were dealing PBAOE damage, you had to stand still and cast, taking the risk to be interrupted, mez, or stun. Then, melee characters could send you back to your respawn area very quickly.

In ESO, you can chain cast PBAOE damage, without taking any risk, as long as you are under the protection of immovable.

It's so sad, so sad

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

semp3rfi wrote: »

Easy way to stop the aoe trend. Give all aoes a cast time that also reduces move speed while casting. Like biting jabs. Being so mobile has let it get out of hand. Take that away then aoe zergs will be crawling along

biting jabs is a fantastic finisher after you deplete their stam and can cc the hell out of them, but when everyone is moving its no good at all. its so easy to miss because you are very slow and can barely turn, i only use it on cc or when flanking. so you are absolutely right about mobility but with aoe all instant casts, what can you do; your suggestion would in effect just be a major nerf.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

While I will agree most above, the whole issue resides on a single ability.

Pulsar. Replace the damn thing and it's morphs, and we will be ok.
Is too powerful for a game that we do not have any other resistance but blocking.

Because Spell Resistance is pathetic to boot since even an average magicka user like myself, has 5000 spell penetration with 2 light armour parts. (The Spell resistance cap is hard to get more than 2200).

You cant block impulse or its morphs, nor can you dodge them with dodgeroll or any dodge increasing skills.