Getting to the root of the stamina/magicka problem.

Faulgor

I hate the idea of a new resource bar for several reasons, but if you really want different resources for weapon abilities and things like dodge/block/etc, why do you overlook that there is already a 4th resource bar called Ultimate?

So, call me crazy, but what about letting all weapon abilities cost ultimate instead of stamina? Throw in a passive that increases ultimate gain with 'stamina' weapons on light/heavy attacks and block, and you've got yourself a playstyle totally distinct from mages, but still free to use the stamina resource for its intended purposes. Of course this would require a better UI for the ultimate bar, but that's a relatively small change.

Anastasia

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Everything else is super meh without separating the resource cost of stamina abilities and standard survival.

I really don't agree with these views and really doesn't bring anything to the table, in full 7 medium with 1800-2000 stamina my bar barely moves when I move in stealth or when I run and I can get around 9 maybe 10 dodge rolls from a full stamina bar, in my light armour even when I'm using all my attacks from magicka I still end up stamina starved and can barley manage 2-3 dodge rolls.

Fact is in PVP at least, outside of blobbed impulse spam (which is an issue with blobbing not with armour, it would be just as bad if they all did it in heavy armour really) hybrid builds are much stronger and once you're used to it, stamina management isn't an issue.

Note, before we get yet another lame strawman argument, I'm not saying I can't run out of stamina and die but that's what my smaller magic pool is for, and I can spend it all on Dark Cloak, besides my magic PVP build can run out of magic as well and I get little to no dodges out of that build even when all my stamina is saved for them and with all my magic used for attack I can often have little left for Dark Cloak.

Hell when I feel like being really cocky I can throw on a Warlock hood, shoulders and jewels on my stamina build and get a ton of extra Dark Cloaks out of it. Point is, my stamina build is just as survivable, maybe even more so than my magic build when played correctly.

I think people should stop trying to play stamina builds like they play their magic builds, that would be a good start.

>>>In PVE raids (**OR ANY PvE**) NEED ACCESS TO MORE STAM REGEN NOW!!**

the issue is mainly one of magic builds being able to never run out of magicka thanks to converting health to magicka and then getting healed.

Also, classes and the theme park feel to things seem to come late in the development, it was almost like they had it dropped on them by the suits but you just can't get away from the game is a class game right now and you've got to make a build (stamina or magic) with that in mind.

Hopefully this will change somewhat with spell crafting.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

You need to read what youre replying to.

Yes I see sorry, was only a passing comment though, I'm pretty sure you've likely misread something before.

---

Yup. MOAR/ANY REASONABLE AMOUNT OF ONGOING STAMINA REGEN PLEASSSSSSE!!

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Want is the wrong word, and making weapon abilities cost ultimate is utterly perposterous. Making a new reource for block etc is the relatively small and not outright silly change.

Rune_Relic

MorHawk wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

The way some tell it anyone using just magic has this huuuge stash of stamina to just use for dodging all day and it just doesn't work that way in practice when you're in light armour. Magic builds have to rely on their magic pool for defense AND attack with skills like Dark Cloak, Heals and Bolt Escape, just the same way stamina builds have to rely on their stamina pool being used for defense and attack.

Adding in a dodge bar really isn't going to fix the problem and I really am not keen on it as an idea myself.

I really have to just throw a big ol' +1 onto this. People need to get used to the fact that "pure" builds will always be sub-par. Can't be competitive when you ignore a resource. And adding a third bar/combining mag+stam are cop-out moves. This can be fixed without sacrificing diversity.

That said, I can't help but laugh that I've shattered your arguments so much that you've now stopped even responding to me. Sorry, couldn't resist.

fail 1 - Cant be competitive with all builds
This is a design flaw and nothing else..... that can be fixed.

fail 2 - some builds will be subpar.
See above

fail 3 - Adding a bar is a cop out (no....accepting builds can be unbalanced is a cop out).
The only way to achieve proper balance of 4 archetypal classes is to have 1 resource for each and let you add points into the archetypes you favour. No archetype is/should be 'better'...they just sacrifice some abilities for an increase in others.

Fighter/Tank you could argue needs health.
Mage/Healer you would argue needs magicka.
Assassin/DPS you could argue needs stamina.
Thief ? Where does the thief fit into this...master of stealth and evasion.
Thieves aren't into combat....they avoid it.

fail 4 - cant be competitive if you ignore a resource.
errrmmm... the whole point of specialising your character is to sacrifice some attribute while increasing others ?

trimsic_ESO

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Adding in a different resource bar for dodge, block, etc is ONE of the fixes needed, not the fix. I simply see it as one of the biggest balance flaws.

That would be just great.

MorHawk

Rune_Relic wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

I really have to just throw a big ol' +1 onto this. People need to get used to the fact that "pure" builds will always be sub-par. Can't be competitive when you ignore a resource. And adding a third bar/combining mag+stam are cop-out moves. This can be fixed without sacrificing diversity.

fail 4 - cant be competitive if you ignore a resource.
errrmmm... the whole point of specialising your character is to sacrifice some attribute while increasing others ?

Lol, that's nice. No matter how many times you use the word 'fail' though, it still isn't adding any legitimacy to your argument.

Yes, surprisingly I get the basic idea behind stat and point allocation. However, even if you dumped every point, stat and gear bonus into stamina, you'd still have your basic magicka pool. That doesn't go away, and in fact increases all on its own when you level up. If you then fill your bar with stamina skills, that magicka bar is still going to be sat there unused, and thus, wasted. Wasted capacity makes you uncompetitive.

Maybe I can make it even clearer? Player A creates a stamina build and fills his bar with stam skills, as above. Let's say for argument's sake one of those is Silver Bolts. Player B has the same build, but swaps Bolts out for a ranged class skill (just to use the example that we've been bickering over for so long). Even assuming that the two skills are comparable, Player B is superior because once both have wiped their stam bar, he will still be able to fire off two or three spells.

Make sense?

CapuchinSeven

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Adding in a different resource bar for dodge, block, etc is ONE of the fixes needed, not the fix. I simply see it as one of the biggest balance flaws.

That would be just great.

People just keep throwing this out and never actually addressing the counter point as to why it isn't needed. As copied from another post

In PVP with light armour you'll get maybe 2 dodges.

In PVP with my stamina being used for attacks I'll still get double that minimum with 140 stamina regen and 7 medium armour, throw in Siphoning Strikes or Green Dragon Blood and you've got even more to play with.

The way some tell it anyone using just magic has this huuuge stash of stamina to just use for dodging all day and it just doesn't work that way in practice when you're in light armour. Magic builds have to rely on their magic pool for defense AND attack with skills like Dark Cloak, Heals and Bolt Escape, just the same way stamina builds have to rely on their stamina pool being used for defense and attack.

My stamina build gets only a few Dark Cloaks but a lot of dodges.

My magic build gets a lot of Dark Cloaks but only a few dodges.

Can someone actually counter that point without just saying "it would be nice" or just raging that someone doesn't understand the problem.

Please before you reply, remember my build, I'm well aware of what it's like to play end game stamina builds, don't claim it's a problem if you've not actually tried a decent stamina build.

Needing a 4th bar really doesn't fix anything.

Better stamina regain via skills like the Mages Guild tree, some damage abilities adjusted, bam problem fixed. Frankly just a better use of the Fighters Guild passives would be a good start.

Teloran

Even if stamina abilities are buffed to be on-par with class skills, pure stamina builds will be sub-par to a build that at least has one or two magica skills. The fact that you can equip powerful buffs (Surge, Restoring Aura ect.) without them eating into your damage pool is a huge bonus. Magica builds are essentially doing the same since they have build in stamina spenders. This is simply the way ESO is designed and I highly doubt it will change.

trimsic_ESO

@CapuchinSeven‌
I played a magical DK on the PTS, and I did not have any issue with my stamina bar, which I rarely used actually. However, I could make a full usage of my magicka bar to deal damage, and buff myself.

It's amazing how strong is a magical DK compared to a physical DK. It's absolutely not balanced.

Jaxom

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Adding in a different resource bar for dodge, block, etc is ONE of the fixes needed, not the fix. I simply see it as one of the biggest balance flaws.

That would be just great.

My stamina build gets only a few Dark Cloaks but a lot of dodges.

My magic build gets a lot of Dark Cloaks but only a few dodges.

This, This, 1000x times. There are many who keep ignoring this. My Magicka Build could cloak 7-8 times and dodge maybe 2. My Stamina build can cloak 2 times and dodge about 8. Honestly, I've had cloak off my bar for the last 2 weeks and my survivability have increased (pretty sad huh, it's THAT unreliable).

In a PvP setting, stamina builds are 100% on par, if not better in some cases than Magicka builds. It's the extremely poor dps mechanics in Trials which is the source of all the problems. Instead of making Trials skill based, they used a cop-out difficulty and make them mostly dps checks. Yes, there are some mechanics but in the end, you stack up and burn the boss down. The question and problem becomes, how do you make Stamina viable for endgame PvE without destroying PvP in the process?

Rune_Relic

Yep....

MorHawk wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

I really have to just throw a big ol' +1 onto this. People need to get used to the fact that "pure" builds will always be sub-par. Can't be competitive when you ignore a resource. And adding a third bar/combining mag+stam are cop-out moves. This can be fixed without sacrificing diversity.

fail 4 - cant be competitive if you ignore a resource.
errrmmm... the whole point of specialising your character is to sacrifice some attribute while increasing others ?

Lol, that's nice. No matter how many times you use the word 'fail' though, it still isn't adding any legitimacy to your argument.

Yes, surprisingly I get the basic idea behind stat and point allocation. However, even if you dumped every point, stat and gear bonus into stamina, you'd still have your basic magicka pool. That doesn't go away, and in fact increases all on its own when you level up. If you then fill your bar with stamina skills, that magicka bar is still going to be sat there unused, and thus, wasted. Wasted capacity makes you uncompetitive.

Maybe I can make it even clearer? Player A creates a stamina build and fills his bar with stam skills, as above. Let's say for argument's sake one of those is Silver Bolts. Player B has the same build, but swaps Bolts out for a ranged class skill (just to use the example that we've been bickering over for so long). Even assuming that the two skills are comparable, Player B is superior because once both have wiped their stam bar, he will still be able to fire off two or three spells.

Make sense?

Yep... totally got what you are saying now. Which emphasises the problem we have with melee vs magicka builds.

Rune_Relic

Jaxom wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Adding in a different resource bar for dodge, block, etc is ONE of the fixes needed, not the fix. I simply see it as one of the biggest balance flaws.

That would be just great.

My stamina build gets only a few Dark Cloaks but a lot of dodges.

My magic build gets a lot of Dark Cloaks but only a few dodges.

This, This, 1000x times. There are many who keep ignoring this. My Magicka Build could cloak 7-8 times and dodge maybe 2. My Stamina build can cloak 2 times and dodge about 8. Honestly, I've had cloak off my bar for the last 2 weeks and my survivability have increased (pretty sad huh, it's THAT unreliable).

In a PvP setting, stamina builds are 100% on par, if not better in some cases than Magicka builds. It's the extremely poor dps mechanics in Trials which is the source of all the problems. Instead of making Trials skill based, they used a cop-out difficulty and make them mostly dps checks. Yes, there are some mechanics but in the end, you stack up and burn the boss down. The question and problem becomes, how do you make Stamina viable for endgame PvE without destroying PvP in the process?

The problem though is you can keep replenishing your magicka.
You cant replenish your stamina in anything like the same way.
That's without ultimates...is there any melee ultimates ?
The only ultimates are class and 1x fighters guild.

Should I be proud I have got where I am never using an ultimate ?
Should I be dismayed I dont really have an ultimate to use ?

SirAndy

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So, going by what you're stressing here, why can the destruction staff line do everything by itself? It's got single target damage, aoe damage, status effects, debuffing, and control all in one.

Compare any weapon line to the destruction staff line and it will come up short. That's a problem, and you cant explain it away.

That pretty much sums it up and is the root of the problem ...
;-)

apostate9

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

If stamina builds were on par with magicka builds, then:
- why most people equip a light armor and a destruction staff in Cyrodiil?

Uh...this forum told them too?

And by "most" I assume you mean 55%, cuz that is how it looks in Chillrend. Not exactly the mental picture you guys try to paint of a world filled soley with skirts.

Jaxom

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Adding in a different resource bar for dodge, block, etc is ONE of the fixes needed, not the fix. I simply see it as one of the biggest balance flaws.

That would be just great.

My stamina build gets only a few Dark Cloaks but a lot of dodges.

My magic build gets a lot of Dark Cloaks but only a few dodges.

This, This, 1000x times. There are many who keep ignoring this. My Magicka Build could cloak 7-8 times and dodge maybe 2. My Stamina build can cloak 2 times and dodge about 8. Honestly, I've had cloak off my bar for the last 2 weeks and my survivability have increased (pretty sad huh, it's THAT unreliable).

In a PvP setting, stamina builds are 100% on par, if not better in some cases than Magicka builds. It's the extremely poor dps mechanics in Trials which is the source of all the problems. Instead of making Trials skill based, they used a cop-out difficulty and make them mostly dps checks. Yes, there are some mechanics but in the end, you stack up and burn the boss down. The question and problem becomes, how do you make Stamina viable for endgame PvE without destroying PvP in the process?

The problem though is you can keep replenishing your magicka.
You cant replenish your stamina in anything like the same way.
That's without ultimates...is there any melee ultimates ?
The only ultimates are class and 1x fighters guild.

Should I be proud I have got where I am never using an ultimate ?
Should I be dismayed I dont really have an ultimate to use ?

In the application I'm using it in, Magicka recovery wouldn't really be taken into consideration. I'm not going to be using Spell Symmetry while trying to get away from someone trying to kill me. I'm talking purely from a PvP perspective with my comments. Tri Pots have the same effect on either build.

We certainly cannot replenish our stamina nearly as good as magicka but from a PvP perspective, my Venom Arrow costs around 200 stamina with a Stamina pool of 2300. I can do a lot of attacks before I'm out of stamina and that doesnt take into consideration pots or skills like Siphoning Strikes (if you use it).

Class Ultimates can be melee ultimates. For a NB, all of the class Ultimates are melee, Veil of Blades, Soul Harvest, Soul Siphon all require you to be in their face. With the recent change to how ultimates scale, it should take which ever pool is higher so speccing in Stamina should no longer yield worse results (or at least on par). My Soul Harvest crit's in the 1200+ range when used right after Ambush and I have the minimum Magicka pool.

My point was that Stamina builds are fine in PvP. Stamina builds are far below par when compared to Magicka builds in PvE. That's not to say that Stamina builds cannot complete trials as recently, the dps is good enough but still 300-400dps below a magicka based one. The devs need to figure out how to bridge the gap without making Stamina builds OP in PvP.

trimsic_ESO

@Jaxom‌
Unfortunately it's not possible to dual a team mate so as to get exact numbers about what is the best build for instance.

However, we can roam in Cyrodiil, and get some experience about 1v1 combat. And my experience is as follows:
- Magicka DK vs Stamina DK: most of the time the Magicka DK wins
- Magicka Sorc vs Stamina Sorc: hum not realistic for obvious reasons
- Etc...

When you state that Stamina builds are on par with Magicka builds in PvP, you are very far from the reality.

Jaxom

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Jaxom‌
Unfortunately it's not possible to dual a team mate so as to get exact numbers about what is the best build for instance.

However, we can roam in Cyrodiil, and get some experience about 1v1 combat. And my experience is as follows:
- Magicka DK vs Stamina DK: most of the time the Magicka DK wins
- Magicka Sorc vs Stamina Sorc: hum not realistic for obvious reasons
- Etc...

When you state that Stamina builds are on par with Magicka builds in PvP, you are very far from the reality.

I typically run in a group of 3 and we are all stamina based. I assure you, we do fine. My flying blade hits for 600 non-crit and Blinding Flurry hits for about 950 over the 1.3s cast time. I've seen flying blade crit from stealth for 1200+ and it's spammable with a low stamina cost. I'm a NB so this is from my perspective.

My Lethal Arrow hits for 1500+ every time from stealth upwards to 2000 depending on the target. Poison Arrow for 500 with a 180 stamina cost. these are just some examples of what stamina based skills can do in PvP. I'm not saying what I do will work for Trials. because it won't. In PvP, stamina builds are fine if you know what you are doing and it is very much a reality. Just because you don't know anyone who can make it work doesn't mean it doesn't.

zazamalek

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

My stamina build gets only a few Dark Cloaks but a lot of dodges.

My magic build gets a lot of Dark Cloaks but only a few dodges.

My magic build that is completely offensive (no Dark Cloak) still has a few dodges.

On my magic build if I deplete my primary resource, I still have a secondary to burn through and can stun break to try and escape or buy time for regeneration.

On my stamina build if I deplete my primary resource, I can't Dark Cloak while stunned and can't stun break because I need that resource to do it: I'm dead.

MrMT

To me, the solution would be simple:

Make every spell and every weapon use the same resource - call it "power". Leave stamina for running, dodging, sneaking, breaking free and leaping. And health is, well, health.
-
We would then have a simple trade off between power (damage/skill effectiveness), agility (damage avoidance/counter skill), and health (absorption).

On top of that we would have the same three grades of armor, but ordered in the good old fashioned way.

Heavier armor = more protection (against magic or melee attacks), but less agility. And ranged skills would do less damage than close up skills.

Tada.

MorHawk

MrMT wrote: »

To me, the solution would be simple:

Make every spell and every weapon use the same resource
Tada.

Again with the homogeneity argument. Believe it or not, that idea has come up. Repeatedly. Yes, an asymmetrical system has its flaws, but there's no point in options if they're all the same thing. This can be fixed without gutting the system of all that makes it unique.

Greatfellow

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Part of the "only sticks and dresses work" mentality is left-over sentiment from when vet zones were much harder, and before any of the stamina build balancing changes were put into effect

Don't make it simpler or easy. You gotta make choices, you're not Super-Everything-Man. That guy is boring.

I like having to make the current studied choices about how to balance my stamina/magicka/health. It adds challenge and complexity to my play.

And don't simplify armor for crissakes. Give me all those subtlely different Set choices. I love strategizing around them.

I even like my limited 2 Abilities bars, as much as I really hate them: they cause me to think, darn it, about what I'm doing.

I like having to consider timing with all of it too: timing of potions, abilities' speeds, etc.

I feel clever when I figure out a way to combine my limited stats/abilites and armor and timing to maximal effect. I feel nothing but boredom when I am handed everything, or given just a few choices and no opportunity to make subtle choices. Of those two feelings, guess what will keep me playing?

trimsic_ESO

Jaxom wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Jaxom‌
Unfortunately it's not possible to dual a team mate so as to get exact numbers about what is the best build for instance.

However, we can roam in Cyrodiil, and get some experience about 1v1 combat. And my experience is as follows:
- Magicka DK vs Stamina DK: most of the time the Magicka DK wins
- Magicka Sorc vs Stamina Sorc: hum not realistic for obvious reasons
- Etc...

When you state that Stamina builds are on par with Magicka builds in PvP, you are very far from the reality.

I typically run in a group of 3 and we are all stamina based. I assure you, we do fine. My flying blade hits for 600 non-crit and Blinding Flurry hits for about 950 over the 1.3s cast time. I've seen flying blade crit from stealth for 1200+ and it's spammable with a low stamina cost. I'm a NB so this is from my perspective.

My Lethal Arrow hits for 1500+ every time from stealth upwards to 2000 depending on the target. Poison Arrow for 500 with a 180 stamina cost. these are just some examples of what stamina based skills can do in PvP. I'm not saying what I do will work for Trials. because it won't. In PvP, stamina builds are fine if you know what you are doing and it is very much a reality. Just because you don't know anyone who can make it work doesn't mean it doesn't.

I also have a bow and often play with dual wield skills; I know the numbers you are giving to us, which are the numbers a NB can obtain through its own class buffs and against targets that are not well equipped.

If our enemy activates immovable and boosts the physical armor, we don't deal that amount of damage.

We plan to have a session on the PTS on two different factions so we can duel each other in our guild, test, and get numbers. I'll post the screenshots when I have them. One of the goal will be to show how large is the gap between magical damage and physical damage.

And don't forget one thing in your analysis: most of the cloth wearers in Cyrodiil have a weapon and a shield equipped. They mitigate a lot of physical damage when they block, and they block while casting their spells. A stamina player would have a huge problem in trying to be competitive with the same gameplay, because blocking and dealing damage with physical weapons both use stamina.

For instance, facts have proved that it's almost impossible for a physical DK to win a 1v1 combat against a magical DK.

MrMT

MorHawk wrote: »

MrMT wrote: »

To me, the solution would be simple:

Make every spell and every weapon use the same resource
Tada.

Again with the homogeneity argument. Believe it or not, that idea has come up. Repeatedly. Yes, an asymmetrical system has its flaws, but there's no point in options if they're all the same thing. This can be fixed without gutting the system of all that makes it unique.

This isn't really an option, though, is it? Well, I guess it is on one level, but it's a choice between one resource, which is good, and another resource, which will make you weaker.

A bit like the choice between werewolf and vampire. You can choose one that makes you into a god, and the other that makes you considerably weaker by having it.

That is indeed variety, but it isn't very good for gaming.

The magicka/stamina divide does not make this game unique in any interesting way. What makes this game interesting is choice.

All those skills with different flavours.

That choice would be enhanced in a system which used one resource for skill effect, and another resource for mobility (roll, break free, sprint etc).

MorHawk

MrMT wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Again with the homogeneity argument. Believe it or not, that idea has come up. Repeatedly. Yes, an asymmetrical system has its flaws, but there's no point in options if they're all the same thing. This can be fixed without gutting the system of all that makes it unique.

This isn't really an option, though, is it? Well, I guess it is on one level, but it's a choice between one resource, which is good, and another resource, which will make you weaker.

A bit like the choice between werewolf and vampire. You can choose one that makes you into a god, and the other that makes you considerably weaker by having it.

I'm certainly not saying that either of those choices are currently balanced. I'm saying that, to take your second example, WW and Vamp could easily be balanced by making them give very similar bonuses and penalties. However, that would make the choice redundant. I'm not saying that diversity is valuable by itself, but that both are required to make the choice worthwhile.

CapuchinSeven

Personally I don't really like vampires or wolves giving bonuses outside of fluff in a multiplayer game frankly, it's stupid actually. In a game where you can have all skill lines filled with a single character, why wouldn't you take a tree that gives you the best AOE ultimate in the game, one of the best escapes in the game and a ton of regen? Because of fire damage? I've taken the vamp tree a few times before and the fire damage really wasn't an issue outside of siege with a few resists on. That's why we're playing vampires in cloaks with a staff online.

That said though, why ZOS think it makes sense for all those vampire passives to work all the time and for wolves to get... well, basically nothing is head wrinkling.

That's ZOS balance though, one line is bad the other is awesome. Balance, right?

Zsymon

Would the stamina vs magicka problem be partly solved by massively increasing the influence stamina has on melee/bow light and heavy attacks? That way the weapon skills serve utility and CC roles, while the main damage comes from light and heavy attacks, just like in all the previous Elder Scrolls games. Then you will want to stack weapon power and stamina as high as possible and you will be viable in Trials with a stamina build. You'll be able to focus on stamina just as hard as magicka users focus on magicka.

I'd add an additional innate crit chance (20% or so) to light attacks, and an innate knockdown (1 second) to heavy attacks, that way you'd use light attacks against a boss or champion, and heavy attacks if you want to knock down another player or monster, or if you want big crits and burst damage.

That would solve part of the stamina resource management as well, since you wouldn't need any stamina for dps, only for utlity and CC, sprinting, stun breaking, blocking and interrupting. None of the current stamina skills can be used for dps now anyway, so it would nicely fit, and no skills would have to be changed dramatically.

Also, it means people will actually use basic attacks, because right now, why are they even in the game, if no one ever uses them because it is meaningless to do so? What's the point of having the aiming system centered around mouse clicking basic attacks, if you never ever use this system the way it seems to be intended?

Basic attacks only do one thing, damage, yet they can't be used for that purpose because they do such incredibly pitiful damage. Why are light attacks especially, even in the game? Who would ever use light attacks to attack in veteran content or even in a lvl12 dungeon?

I suggest we improve the useless first, before we add in whole new systems and skills.

As a side note, it makes no sense for staff basic attacks to scale off stamina, so I would change them to scale off magicka instead, so they too become more useful.

Zsymon

Please Zenimax, the main reason I am starting to lose interest in ESO, is because swinging a massive sword into my enemy, or shooting an arrow between its eyes, does absolutely nothing. I've been playing stick&skirt because there is no other decent MMO, but it is getting very boring, I never even wanted to be a mage type, but I have no choice but to play one.

You can't fix this problem by adding +10% damage to wrecking blow and cleave. That is not going to make stamina builds viable for trials and V14 content.

I suggest seriously contemplating this problem and stepping away from your intent to only change with baby steps, because people who at heart want to play a warrior, archer or rogue, are going to leave long before those baby steps amount to anything, as the utter futility of stamina builds is becoming more and more clear. The stamina vs magicka problem needs an urgent and extensive solution.

Without addressing the uselessness of normal attacks for warriors and archers, you are never going to fix the basic problem. There is no way to bring stamina skills up to par with magicka skills, because they are not spells, they are physical actions and your options with those are limited if you want to continue having them make sense. The main damage has to come from normal attacks, currently the only spammable physical actions (save flurry and flying dagger), which means they would have to do a LOT more damage, scaling off stamina.

trimsic_ESO

@Zsymon‌
I totally agree: magicka players just smile when a melee DPS character with a sword or two engage them. They don't take much damage, and they can be full life in a couple of seconds owing to the restoration staff.

Furthermore, with their magicka spells they can out-damage any stamina player, have more critical chance, heal themselves, thus granting them a lot of ultimate points. This is how the game mechanics works as per today, and such an imbalance makes no sense.

Shaun98ca2

Hmmmm So I have been doing some thinking on the Magicka vs Stamina

The 1st thing that needs to happen is Restro Staffs NEED that Magicka gain after the Heavy Attack CHANGED. That Magicka gain is meant for healers NOT DPSers to have "unlimited" Magicka.

Magicka users NEED to run out of Magicka.....PERIOD. The resource system is MEANT to be very tight and constantly running out.

Right now Magicka users having endless Magicka due to excessive Magicka gain is simply breaking the system ZOS had in place to begin with.

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Magicka users should hit the hardest but be unable to sustain the high levels of DPS.

Stamina users should have good DPS and able to sustain it indefinitely with SLIGHT increases in DPS with Stamina usage.


Reason being behind this is a few things already into place in the game.

Points in Stamina increase all Light and Heavy Attacks for all weapons. This makes it so a Stamina user can be good with ANY weapon he choses to pick up.

You cant run out of Light/Heavy Attacks but you CAN run out of Stamina. This makes a Stamina users have to choose between DPS or defense. Increased defense means decreased DPS as it should.

IF Magicka users run out of Magicka their DPS should drop to crap compared to that of a Stamina users while relying on Light/Heavy Attacks till they can regen more Magicka for more casts, while a Stamina users Light/Heavy Attacks should blows a Magicka users attacks out the water.


What the system SHOULD look like is Magicka user could blow all his Magicka at the start of a battle having the insane DPS he already currently has. Now that that Magicka is gone the Stamina user should now catch up to the Magicka users DPS creating a balance.

Naturally as a Magicka user you are going to want to use your Magicka sparingly as its the ONLY thing keeping you alive, and a Stamina users is going to want to use their Stamina sparingly as well as it is also the only thing keeping them alive.

I don't believe TESO was ever meant to be a button masher as Magicka builds have become due to them never running out of Magicka.

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On a side note...

Light armor and Medium armor SHOULD NOT reach the same values that Heavy armor can reach in physical resistance.

That being said Light armor and Medium armor should still allow for Tanking they just shouldn't allow for the same level of physical resistance.

This would allow Heavy armor to be used for Tanking as it would give you better survivability versus the increased damage the other armors would give with the decreased survivability.

Kego

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Personally I don't really like vampires or wolves giving bonuses outside of fluff in a multiplayer game frankly, it's stupid actually. In a game where you can have all skill lines filled with a single character, why wouldn't you take a tree that gives you the best AOE ultimate in the game, one of the best escapes in the game and a ton of regen? Because of fire damage? I've taken the vamp tree a few times before and the fire damage really wasn't an issue outside of siege with a few resists on. That's why we're playing vampires in cloaks with a staff online.

The counter to Vampires is Fighter Guild. With an Ambush + Camoflaged Hunter I can hit a Vampire Player for ~2.000 DMG at once and can fight over 15 seconds with a 20% chance at every attack to deal additional ~400DMG.

Means Vampires doesn't have to only deal with higher inc. Fire DMG. They get more DMG through Fighters Guild Skills as well. Not to forget the passive 9% more Weapon- and Spell DMG.

If more player would use Camo Hunter and/or Silver Bolt, a lot of player would think twice of becoming a Vampire.

That said though, why ZOS think it makes sense for all those vampire passives to work all the time and for wolves to get... well, basically nothing is head wrinkling.

Well Vampires are always Vampires unlike Werwolves. They already said they will improve WW with more active skills, what is the right direction.