Getting to the root of the stamina/magicka problem.

Kego · August 2014

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So, going by what you're stressing here, why can the destruction staff line do everything by itself? It's got single target damage, aoe damage, status effects, debuffing, and control all in one.

Compare any weapon line to the destruction staff line and it will come up short. That's a problem, and you cant explain it away.

Bow is the Stamina Weapon like Destruction Staff.
It has Single Target DPS, AOE DMG, Status Effects, Debuffing and Control. It only suffers at a weaker AOE DMG than Destruction Staff but that is maybe adressed by the Devs, as they mentioned they will buff some Stamina Skills if needed. Than we have of cause the Magicka Builds Regeneration Abilities. There have to come a major nerf.

And you know, Bow as well as Destruction Staff have something common. They are the only Range DPS Weapons for your choice. Other as Melee Weapons. There you have Dual Wield, 2Handers and 1Hand + Shield. And thats the reason why not every Melee Weapon can do everything like Bow or Destruction Staff. (And even those can`t do all, cause both suffer an Execute Ability against Low Health Targets)

AtriasNaradan · August 2014

Kego wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So, going by what you're stressing here, why can the destruction staff line do everything by itself? It's got single target damage, aoe damage, status effects, debuffing, and control all in one.

Compare any weapon line to the destruction staff line and it will come up short. That's a problem, and you cant explain it away.

Bow is the Stamina Weapon like Destruction Staff.
It has Single Target DPS, AOE DMG, Status Effects, Debuffing and Control. It only suffers at a weaker AOE DMG than Destruction Staff but that is maybe adressed by the Devs, as they mentioned they will buff some Stamina Skills if needed. Than we have of cause the Magicka Builds Regeneration Abilities. There have to come a major nerf.

And you know, Bow as well as Destruction Staff have something common. They are the only Range DPS Weapons for your choice. Other as Melee Weapons. There you have Dual Wield, 2Handers and 1Hand + Shield. And thats the reason why not every Melee Weapon can do everything like Bow or Destruction Staff. (And even those can`t do all, cause both suffer an Execute Ability against Low Health Targets)

actually, what you imply there isn't sensical either. While it is true that Bow and Destruction as the only range DPS weapon from each stats, and that melee weapon spread by 3 types, it's also truth that most people simply don't change around between melee weapon. Most melee players choose one melee weapon type, either 2H, DW, or S+B.

Also, even some who mastered all those three melee weapon styles still only use 2 max at a time. And we know we can't change weapon in battle, only swap...and skills of those three weapons doesn't mixed together in one bar, hence it's not a sensical explaination why Bow and destro got everything while melee weapons more specialized.

Kego · August 2014

But they don`t get everything. I for myself run a Bow/1H Shield Combo. Cause 1H-Shield together with Nightblade Class skills provides me a Execute Skill as well as more defense for PvP.
For PvE I would run Bow/2Handers. Bow for Single Target & AOE DPS and 2Handers for Execution Phase with Assassins Blade and Reverse Slash.

If you only want to wield one Weapon feel free to do so, but don`t expect to be as good as Player that mix their Weapons and Class/Guild Skills.

Teloran · August 2014

Kego wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So, going by what you're stressing here, why can the destruction staff line do everything by itself? It's got single target damage, aoe damage, status effects, debuffing, and control all in one.

Compare any weapon line to the destruction staff line and it will come up short. That's a problem, and you cant explain it away.

Bow is the Stamina Weapon like Destruction Staff.
It has Single Target DPS, AOE DMG, Status Effects, Debuffing and Control. It only suffers at a weaker AOE DMG than Destruction Staff but that is maybe adressed by the Devs, as they mentioned they will buff some Stamina Skills if needed. Than we have of cause the Magicka Builds Regeneration Abilities. There have to come a major nerf.

And you know, Bow as well as Destruction Staff have something common. They are the only Range DPS Weapons for your choice. Other as Melee Weapons. There you have Dual Wield, 2Handers and 1Hand + Shield. And thats the reason why not every Melee Weapon can do everything like Bow or Destruction Staff. (And even those can`t do all, cause both suffer an Execute Ability against Low Health Targets)

The issue is that bow's AoE and (to a lesser extent) single target DPS is just not that great. The destruction staff has the strongest AoE and single target DPS of any weapon, and also allows your class skills to work at full power, which is all that really matters in trials.

Rune_Relic · August 2014

At then end of the day the two classes should have equal ability on similar weaponry. Show me a 1 for 1 equivalent for all magicka and melee abilities ?

Single target touch weapon (0h 1h 2h magical/melee)
Multi target touch weapon ( ??? is there a non magic equivalent other than some CC)
Single target range weapon (2h magical/melee)
Multi target range weapon (2h magical/melee)

Magicka users can use a stave for all and 1 skill set for both bars if they want (ie weapon of choice + 8 actives).
Stamina users have to use bow+ other + 2 skill tree sets (ie 2 weapons +4 +4 actives and still don't have equivalent abbilities).

Perhaps a staff for ranged magicka use and wand for Touch weapon.
At the moment its like a stamina build using a bow for melee.

Also historically most Nords are extreme anti-magicka. Telling them to use class skills is like telling a veggie to eat meat

But I agree...Zeni never even considered the fact magicka and stamina users would be dirtect opposites in game mechanics sense and have been trying to patch it ever since. Even if they were told repeatedly in beta melee combat sucks.

I guess they underestimated exactly how many TES fans love raw melee combat.

Galrukh · August 2014

OP is absolutely spot on, its everything that is wrong with the game stamina/magicka atm.

Leveling the game as stamina is easy, I did that with my DK and could plow through pretty much everything including (cautiously) public dungeons or world bosses. Now that Im VR12 it fails pretty bad in both Vet dungeons/trials and PvP.
There are 2 things I desperately want ZoS want to fix, stamina vs magicka and ultimates (which dominate PvP way too much atm).

zazamalek · August 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

my new alt is stamina based and at lvl 39 pulling 700DPS

I have been moaning to no end about stamina, at this point I have to agree with you. My pure-stamina build isn't too nuts but a guildie of mine can hit like a truck, at the same time he completely sacrifices his defensive capability: a very good risk/reward balance point in my opinion. I did AA for the first time in a long time the other night (I'm focused on PvP) and my DPS varied between 700 and 1300; depending on how much I was focusing.

A bit more damage in PvE might be nice for "less than optimal" builds (without drastically buffing optimal builds), but from what I've seen, not absolutely required.

I'm not calling for magicka nerfs, the DPS output is probably perfect: the magicka risk needs significant adjustment. The difference in risk between my magicka alts (templar) and my stamina main (NB) is significant, getting hit by a stun on my NB is nearly always spells death - a stun on my templar is simply a hitch and nothing I worry about at all.

At this point I think it might be appropriate to stop theorycrafting on how to fix stamina (big words coming from me) and focus on adding more risk to magicka. My magicka alt is relatively low-level so I don't understand magicka balance well enough to come up with any suggestions or insights. I do know enough to say that stuns aren't a problem at all compared to what I have experienced on my NB (level 1 to VR12 stamina, never went magicka).

One insight (mostly comes from guildies, but I am in agreement) is that it's nuts that AOE is some of the best single-target damage in the game. Impulse spam can easily out-DPS a stamina build in a 1v1 situation, given two relatively average-skilled players. AOE needs to be powerful only in groups (this applies to stamina too, but that is currently the situation anyway). The risk of getting in a group of enemies should be rewarded with high amounts of damage, incorrectly using any AOE in a 1v1 situation should be penalized: having that ability on your hotbar should be a risk in that you may be ill-equipped if you run into a 1v1 situation.

Right now I feel as though the stamina balance should be the type of balance that everything else (cough magicka cough) should come into line with. Stamina needs a some work with hard CC but is seriously becoming one of the most engaging forms of combat in the game: I look at Impulse spamming and seriously question if those people are having fun (or have any skill to speak of).

Prince_Edward · August 2014

I agree with all of this. Very well done, keep up the great work.

CapuchinSeven · August 2014

So... and it's kinda impossible to not read all these replies without a grin on my face... because this is the internet and because some of you are clearly about to suffer massive internet rage bold and italics heart attacks, I'll clarify something.

You are all replying to a strawman argument.

First. My first post in this thread agreed there is a problem with stamina builds. Like it or not, the primary issue with stamina builds is stamina regen, stamina builds hit 800+ DPS but they can't hold it for over 30 seconds. The reason magic builds can do this is because they can literally never run out of magic (struggling to understand how people can't know that, it's a game fact, they literally never run out of magic, why are some of you even arguing that point? Comical). With the ability to turn health into magic even when light armour and restoration staff siphon regen fails them, in a raid setting with healing circle spam, magic builds never run out of magic.

Stamina builds can't do that.

Second. My second follow up post was in reply to the question "what am I meant to do" in regards to a 2 handed sword having a weak filler. The answer I gave was NOT commentary on stamina builds, it was a simple piece of advice from someone with an 800 DPS stamina build. It is not my view on stamina builds and was not a statement on stamina builds.

It doesn't matter if you don't like it, this was built as a class game and if you find a gap in your weapon, ZOS intend for you to either fill that slot with a class skill or weapon swap to a weapon that can fill that slot.

This is NOT a statement of my agreement with how the game is/was built. I don't like that the game is a class game, I don't think a TES game should have ever been a class game.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Bow this, bow that. There are stamina based weapons other than the bow. The bow is the only one that is safe to use and burn your stamina in a large PvP engagement, the others will get you killed.

You think the only point of a 2h melee weapon is the gap closer? gap close to death while you remain safe with your bow?

Its utter crap to suggest that one should use bow or staves or suck it up.

er I have a stamina 2 Hander PVP build actually, it's deadly, with DW on the second bar, but whatever.

No, you can't just melee around the map without consideration for your targets first. If OMG MELEEZ is your first and only thought then you're going to die a lot and that has nothing to do with stamina/magic build problems. Like it or not, adapt or die is true in games and real life.

An acception to melee builds would be DKs with massive survivability who are built more for face on melee fights. Which again highlights the game is a class game.

Stx wrote: »

No, we got his point.

No you didn't.

Stx wrote: »

He is ignoring the whole part where its totally okay for magicka builds to do the exact thing.

No I didn't, my first post stated what was wrong with stamina builds.

Stx wrote: »

The whole play the way you want thing is a myth.

I totally agree.

Stx wrote: »

I just wouldn't call a build a "stamina build" just because it uses a weapon other than a staff.

I have 3000 Health, 1200 Magic, and 2000 Stamina, I use no staffs and run mostly stamina abilities, although that goes up and down depending on what weapon I use for example a DW build would need a class gap closer.

jesterstear · August 2014

You know, i'm coming to the conclusion that weapon skill lines are all quite poor compared to class skill lines. But then , so are guild and world skills... the problem is that when one class gets a standout skill, the devs go around buffing other classes to bring them up to speed, except in some cases they overdo it, forcing another round of buffing the class skills. And these class skills all use magicka. Meanwhile, guild, world and weapon skills fall further and further behind. I have only one skill on my toolbar that isn't a class skill. I used to use more, but veteran ranks started to punish me for slotting abilities that don't pull their weight.

Oh yes, and ranged > melee , pretty much always. That is a separate issue, but favours casters again.

CapuchinSeven · August 2014

jesterstear wrote: »

But then , so are guild and world skills....

Hmm dunno about that, the reason magic builds don't run out of magic in PVE raids is a guild skill, one of the best ultimates in the game is a world skill and the Vampire line is in world skills.

Of course most of these are magic skills, which says a lot about Fighters Guild skills which really should be buffing all stamina attacks on all targets.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · August 2014

AtriasNaradan wrote: »

Everyone here seems to miss the actual root of the problem, which is TES series original stats usage principle. ZOS here use the same stats usage principle as other TES series. Now anyone please tell me any use of Stamina on TES series other than any phisycal actions (running, heavy attacks,light attacks, blocking, etc.)...and tell me if you can find any healing that use stamina.

There's really no use of stamina stats in any TES series other than physical actions. The problem is, on previous TES series there are no pots cooldown, which is a must on every MMO's, which is why they using the same stats principle isn't working as good. When we play Oblivion for example, we can go melee all the way without any magic at all, goes all physical contact like a badass spartan, but we can heal using pots easily without cooldown, which makes it fine not having magic at all.

So, yes, on any TES series, Stamina never amount that much, but they're compensated by no-cooldown item usages on the original series.
......................

Now, the only good solution here is to make class abilities based on a whole different stat, just like how Bethesda done it with Dragon Shout on Skyrim. Sure, we can say that Sorceress is abilities are magicka abilities on previous series, but the difference in items usage principle makes it that it's best for any class abilities to use a whole different stat, if they won't give any possibilities for full stamina build to be effective.

For now, i suggest doing hybrid build of stamina and magicka, if you don't want to go walking in light armor. I for one use all my stat points on health and stamina, while i have magicka enchantments on my heavy armor. my bar is always a mix of magical and physical abilities. Also i think being a Redguard helps me with stamina as well, making me doing totally fine on PVE ground when i use any weapons (other than resto, but that's only because i never level'd it up yet).

And one more thing, don't always go anywhere sprinting, especially on dungeon. That's simply idiotic...anyone who does that can't say anything about the effectiveness of stamina build.

There's already no choice but to go hybrid. Theres not enough stamina based abilities to go around anyways, and fighters guild abilities are only good anti-abomination.

Each weapon only has 5 skills and no ultimate, and cant mix and match abilities from other weapons onto one weapon. Part of the stamina build fix should be adding more abilities to each weapon to give more attack options.

But they'll still need to make class skills damage scale off of whichever stat is highest and make a new energy bar for blocking, dodging, etc. Its their attachment to their single player series that made them mix those with physical weapon attacks in the first place, and as you said it doesn't work for an MMO. There's no other PC's to worry about, and NPC's are so slow in attacking you you never lost stamina that fast from blocking. Then there was only light and heavy attacks anyways, and no CC breaking.

AtriasNaradan · August 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

AtriasNaradan wrote: »

Everyone here seems to miss the actual root of the problem, which is TES series original stats usage principle. ZOS here use the same stats usage principle as other TES series. Now anyone please tell me any use of Stamina on TES series other than any phisycal actions (running, heavy attacks,light attacks, blocking, etc.)...and tell me if you can find any healing that use stamina.

There's really no use of stamina stats in any TES series other than physical actions. The problem is, on previous TES series there are no pots cooldown, which is a must on every MMO's, which is why they using the same stats principle isn't working as good. When we play Oblivion for example, we can go melee all the way without any magic at all, goes all physical contact like a badass spartan, but we can heal using pots easily without cooldown, which makes it fine not having magic at all.

So, yes, on any TES series, Stamina never amount that much, but they're compensated by no-cooldown item usages on the original series.
......................

Now, the only good solution here is to make class abilities based on a whole different stat, just like how Bethesda done it with Dragon Shout on Skyrim. Sure, we can say that Sorceress is abilities are magicka abilities on previous series, but the difference in items usage principle makes it that it's best for any class abilities to use a whole different stat, if they won't give any possibilities for full stamina build to be effective.

For now, i suggest doing hybrid build of stamina and magicka, if you don't want to go walking in light armor. I for one use all my stat points on health and stamina, while i have magicka enchantments on my heavy armor. my bar is always a mix of magical and physical abilities. Also i think being a Redguard helps me with stamina as well, making me doing totally fine on PVE ground when i use any weapons (other than resto, but that's only because i never level'd it up yet).

And one more thing, don't always go anywhere sprinting, especially on dungeon. That's simply idiotic...anyone who does that can't say anything about the effectiveness of stamina build.

There's already no choice but to go hybrid. Theres not enough stamina based abilities to go around anyways, and fighters guild abilities are only good anti-abomination.

Each weapon only has 5 skills and no ultimate, and cant mix and match abilities from other weapons onto one weapon. Part of the stamina build fix should be adding more abilities to each weapon to give more attack options.

But they'll still need to make class skills damage scale off of whichever stat is highest and make a new energy bar for blocking, dodging, etc. Its their attachment to their single player series that made them mix those with physical weapon attacks in the first place, and as you said it doesn't work for an MMO. There's no other PC's to worry about, and NPC's are so slow in attacking you you never lost stamina that fast from blocking. Then there was only light and heavy attacks anyways, and no CC breaking.

The way i see it, it's better to have the whole new stat for class skills, just like the concept of Dragon Shout from Skyrim. Making the whole new stat to be used for running, blocking, etc. is an option that would make ESO goes a bit far away from TES series. Beside, that's really the most sensical use of stamina anyway, for physical works.

Also a whole new stat for class skills will make it felt more special than just another magic ability, more of something that only each class can really learn. Making class skills uses magicka actually makes it felt like anyone can learn it and it's just game mechanic that prevent it. The class skill stat can also made different for each class to make it even more special (for example, Dragonknight class stat called Dragon Soul, Nightblade uses Shadow Soul, Sorceress uses Mage Soul, and Templar uses Divine Soul). As long as we don't need to put any stat point on the new stat, there will be no problem i can see.

MartinXKid · August 2014

I haven't had any characters that are spell users (All heavy armor) and over the course of my play through with them one thing infuriates me the most.
Even on Heavy armor with Immovable and spells like Spiked Armor and all those spells making my character the most Tankish possible I die as quickly as a weapon swing on a small critter in the open world.
All because of the Armor and Spell Resistance soft caps
No way to live as long as a Blood DeathKnight or let alone a Warrior in WoW
I just want a class that can live throughout the whole battle but I drop like a fly passing though flames the second I engage into battle.

If they could make Armor and Spell Resistance soft cap higher (a lot higher) and make armor and spell resistance way more meaningful then how ever your loadout may be and how ever your abilities sync to each other or not then then this gets rid of most of the problems.

Heavy armor need no dodging and stealth (them costing Stamina so you get to use more of your stamina for abilities) Heavy armor need only to resist more damage. They also get a reduced stamina cost of CC Break and blocking!
Medium armor are like Rogues and Hunters in WoW. They're either hit-and-runs rogue-like types on weaklings (Light armor or low HP) or Kitters and always on the move (Bow) like Hunters make a warrior run around in circles. Them having more Stamina justifies their means to achieve these through stealth, sprint and dodge. In Trials, that means they get to move faster and dodge easily out of AoEs and get to use more of their stamina abilities.

Which leaves us to the Stat balancing. It's clear that light Armor = more Magicka, Medium Armor = more Stamina and Heavy Armor = more HP having both Medium and Heavy armor wearer more survivability then a light Armor wearer should ever have. Light armorer (the Magicka users) in the other hand are the support (Healers) and magic/spell damage dealers. What happens now is Heavy armor users get no meaningful bonuses in PvP survivability and meaningful reasons in Trials to have more HP an Armor/Resistance with the over effective healing capabilities of those healers (Magicka users) and Medium gets no reasons what so ever to either hit-and-run or Kite a Boss. Making Trials only good for Magicka users and burst-effective damage dealer in PvP.

This game was suppose to let you be who you want to be how you you to be and still be effective. Medium or Heavy armor healer? What's the point? Light armor get the full advantage of spells. Heavy armor close-range Mage or Bow handler? Nope. Medium armor Tank? In your dreams. Light Armor with nearly full weapon tree skills with Spells for abilities like Inferno or Reflective Scales (after every 4 secs)? You're in for a surprise!

To end this all, the skills tree designs may get some balancing on their effectiveness (like almost all abilities and spells on a new MMO) but that's not what might be the most problematic. But you do get it about distributing power on magicka spells Vs. stamina abilities. Magicka users may have too much spell critical and Spell power advantages against all melee players who do not get as much weapon power and have no survivability in the frontlines. In PvP nowadays, It's about bursting in damage and nothing else and in Trials about the most DPS and nothing else. Both Light armor/Magicka users can complete these roles while other just makes it look cool and fun to wield a 2 handed weapon Rogue or Heavy Armor Archer.

trimsic_ESO · August 2014

Suggestions:

1. Stat synergies
- Add a revert passive ability, which reverts entirely the effects of stamina and magicka. When this ability is purchased, you need magicka to sprint, block, dodge, stealth, CC break, interrupt, etc..., and you need stamina for all the class tree abilities. Sounds crazy, isn't it. Well this is actually what the stamina based characters feel when they look at the magicka based characters.

- Or do balance magicka and stamina abilities all over the board: for instance CC break could use magicka instead of stamina, and some class abilities could use stamina instead of magicka, etc...

- Or have the effects of all the class tree abilities scale off the highest stat the character has, and add substantial stamina regeneration passive abilities in the melee weapon skill trees.

2. Armor passive
- Once 1. is solved, the heavy armor shall be completely redesigned from A to Z.
- All active armor spells, for instance immovable, shall have a 5 pieces of armor requirement

3. Resource division
Shall be solved by 1. and 2.

4. Skill tree design
- A complete redesign of 2 handed and dual wield skill trees is an absolute must. These skills have no interesting synergies, and do not deal enough damage.

- When we are at melee range we take risks, while at a safe range we don't. It's therefore not logical nor balanced that ranged attacks deal more damage than melee attacks. Example: flying blade deals more damage at a safe range than any other melee dual wield abilities; single target attacks done with the bow deal more damage than any other melee weapon abilities. This makes absolutely no sense.

zazamalek · August 2014

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Or do balance magicka and stamina abilities all over the board: for instance CC break could use magicka instead of stamina, and some class abilities could use stamina instead of magicka, etc...

I really, really, like this idea. In the presence of CC break/immunity that actually works

. You could even do it across the board: always use magicka for CC break and always use stamina for dodge roll/soft CC break.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

When we are at melee range we take risks, while at a safe range we don't. It's therefore not logical nor balanced that ranged attacks deal more damage than melee attacks. Example: flying blade deals more damage at a safe range than any other melee dual wield abilities; single target attacks done with the bow deal more damage than any other melee weapon abilities. This makes absolutely no sense.

Thank you, thank you for bringing up risk/reward. Yes, it's completely broken. Each ability needs to be re-evaluated (or rather, given how it currently looks: evaluated for the first time).

apostate9 · August 2014

MorHawk wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

What am I supposed to do? tickle him with light/heavy attacks?

No you're meant to use class abilities or weapon swap, people are going to have to accept that a stamina build STILL uses magic class abilities.

So we should just accept that stamina abilities will never be on par with magicka ones? I think I've found the root of your problem now.

Yes, I'll accept that there are some self-healing/utility spells that every class should get used to using, just as every class needs to learn to block/dodge. Are you seriously suggesting though that those without viable stamina DPS options should just suck it up and use the superior magicka equivalents? You've kinda just shredded your credibility there.

Yes. You should accept that, because stamina abilities are NOT DESIGNED to be your main damage output skills. How many skills use stamina in Skyrim? Morrowind? Answer: zero.

The stamina skills are meant to compliment your class skills and give you a way to spend suprlus stamina, think of them as "special" weapon attacks that are a little cooler than pressing LMB. Stamina is NOT another magicka bar, except green. If green was supposed to function just like blue except with different cast animations, they woulda meged them into one turquoise resource bar and been done with it. Try to understand this:

MAGICKA != STAMINA

They don't serve the same purpose. People are hung up on the so-called "stamina build", because they are applying some bass ackwards WOW paradigm to an ES game. What they mean is "warrior" build, which is perfectly viable now, and wasn't even that bad at launch. A warrior will however use Magicka for a lot of his powers, because Magicka is the "super power" resource, period.

The sooner you come to terms with this deliberate design decision, the sooner you can all stop crying on these forums and enjoy your dual-wielding dovahkin clones, because ZOS is not going to make Green the new Blue. Ever.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever.

Got it?

Lynx7386 · August 2014

I think the real issue lies in the fact that, in all previous elder scrolls games, you could play as a pure warrior or rogue and not use a single bit of magic, and that isn't an option here - you are forced to be a magic user whether you like it or not.

That is the real problem, and one of the foremost reasons eso does not feel like a proper elder scrolls game.

You can argue all you want that magicka and stamina are not meant to be viable on their own, but that won't change the fact that this game - despite its claims to the opposite - does not let you play a pure fighter.

zazamalek · August 2014

apostate9 wrote: »

How many skills use stamina in Skyrim?

Good rhetorical question, I have another, how many abilities did you have as a melee character in Skyrim? None. Ok. Next one: can you be viable in ESO with only light/heavy attacks?

Different game. Green = new Blue.

khele23eb17_ESO · August 2014

apostate9 wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

What am I supposed to do? tickle him with light/heavy attacks?

No you're meant to use class abilities or weapon swap, people are going to have to accept that a stamina build STILL uses magic class abilities.

So we should just accept that stamina abilities will never be on par with magicka ones? I think I've found the root of your problem now.

Yes, I'll accept that there are some self-healing/utility spells that every class should get used to using, just as every class needs to learn to block/dodge. Are you seriously suggesting though that those without viable stamina DPS options should just suck it up and use the superior magicka equivalents? You've kinda just shredded your credibility there.

Yes. You should accept that, because stamina abilities are NOT DESIGNED to be your main damage output skills. How many skills use stamina in Skyrim? Morrowind? Answer: zero.

The stamina skills are meant to compliment your class skills and give you a way to spend suprlus stamina, think of them as "special" weapon attacks that are a little cooler than pressing LMB. Stamina is NOT another magicka bar, except green. If green was supposed to function just like blue except with different cast animations, they woulda meged them into one turquoise resource bar and been done with it. Try to understand this:

MAGICKA != STAMINA

They don't serve the same purpose. People are hung up on the so-called "stamina build", because they are applying some bass ackwards WOW paradigm to an ES game. What they mean is "warrior" build, which is perfectly viable now, and wasn't even that bad at launch. A warrior will however use Magicka for a lot of his powers, because Magicka is the "super power" resource, period.

The sooner you come to terms with this deliberate design decision, the sooner you can all stop crying on these forums and enjoy your dual-wielding dovahkin clones, because ZOS is not going to make Green the new Blue. Ever.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever.

Got it?

Explain medium armor then. Explain sets with bonuses dedicated to stamina and weapon dmg. Explain some weapons using magicka and others stamina. Explain devs stating: we know stamina builds are underperforming and we are working to fix them.

Jaxom · August 2014

apostate9 wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

What am I supposed to do? tickle him with light/heavy attacks?

No you're meant to use class abilities or weapon swap, people are going to have to accept that a stamina build STILL uses magic class abilities.

So we should just accept that stamina abilities will never be on par with magicka ones? I think I've found the root of your problem now.

Yes, I'll accept that there are some self-healing/utility spells that every class should get used to using, just as every class needs to learn to block/dodge. Are you seriously suggesting though that those without viable stamina DPS options should just suck it up and use the superior magicka equivalents? You've kinda just shredded your credibility there.

Yes. You should accept that, because stamina abilities are NOT DESIGNED to be your main damage output skills. How many skills use stamina in Skyrim? Morrowind? Answer: zero.

The stamina skills are meant to compliment your class skills and give you a way to spend suprlus stamina, think of them as "special" weapon attacks that are a little cooler than pressing LMB. Stamina is NOT another magicka bar, except green. If green was supposed to function just like blue except with different cast animations, they woulda meged them into one turquoise resource bar and been done with it. Try to understand this:

MAGICKA != STAMINA

They don't serve the same purpose. People are hung up on the so-called "stamina build", because they are applying some bass ackwards WOW paradigm to an ES game. What they mean is "warrior" build, which is perfectly viable now, and wasn't even that bad at launch. A warrior will however use Magicka for a lot of his powers, because Magicka is the "super power" resource, period.

The sooner you come to terms with this deliberate design decision, the sooner you can all stop crying on these forums and enjoy your dual-wielding dovahkin clones, because ZOS is not going to make Green the new Blue. Ever.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever.

Got it?

/facepalm Please do not compare Oblivion and Skyrim to ESO. It's so Apples and Oranges and the worst kind of comparison you can make. Single Player Game does not equal MMO. If what you are saying was actually true, then why is there Medium Armor, why are there skill lines dedicated to Stamina damage (2h and DW)? They clearly had the foresight to see that people who lean towards a melee style of play using weapons, otherwise these sets wouldn't exist.

My "Stamina Build" puts out plenty of dps. We have members of the guild pushing 1k dps in Trials with a bow so please tell me how Stamina builds arent meant to be my main output?

demonlkojipub19_ESO · August 2014

Don't Feed the Wizard.

Anastasia · August 2014

apostate9 wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

What am I supposed to do? tickle him with light/heavy attacks?

No you're meant to use class abilities or weapon swap, people are going to have to accept that a stamina build STILL uses magic class abilities.

So we should just accept that stamina abilities will never be on par with magicka ones? I think I've found the root of your problem now.

Yes, I'll accept that there are some self-healing/utility spells that every class should get used to using, just as every class needs to learn to block/dodge. Are you seriously suggesting though that those without viable stamina DPS options should just suck it up and use the superior magicka equivalents? You've kinda just shredded your credibility there.

Yes. You should accept that, because stamina abilities are NOT DESIGNED to be your main damage output skills. How many skills use stamina in Skyrim? Morrowind? Answer: zero.

The stamina skills are meant to compliment your class skills and give you a way to spend suprlus stamina, think of them as "special" weapon attacks that are a little cooler than pressing LMB. Stamina is NOT another magicka bar, except green. If green was supposed to function just like blue except with different cast animations, they woulda meged them into one turquoise resource bar and been done with it. Try to understand this:

MAGICKA != STAMINA

They don't serve the same purpose. People are hung up on the so-called "stamina build", because they are applying some bass ackwards WOW paradigm to an ES game. What they mean is "warrior" build, which is perfectly viable now, and wasn't even that bad at launch. A warrior will however use Magicka for a lot of his powers, because Magicka is the "super power" resource, period.

The sooner you come to terms with this deliberate design decision, the sooner you can all stop crying on these forums and enjoy your dual-wielding dovahkin clones, because ZOS is not going to make Green the new Blue. Ever.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever.

Got it?

You married to, or a sibling of a dev at ZOS? How do you know that ZOS will not make Green the new Blue?

Actually HOW COULD ANY OF US KNOW THAT since ZOS absolutely has shown they do NOT value adherence to THEIR OWN original design concepts.

AND... you better hope that the magicka/stam ratio issue has a possibility of getting adjusted reasonably. As if players have no HOPE of it being brought more in line with other builds, then those players will no doubt show their disappointment. There are a LOT of melee-build lovers out there.

And its one thing to say this is Zeni's fresh new take on melee builds; its quite another to literally believe that MMO players don't care enough to use their recreational coin in a different manner. Right now there are lots of people being patient and watching the small, incremental adjustments. If what you say is true; the possibility of having fun for those players is diminished greatly, GREATLY.

SO...ask away stam/melee players who feel discontent. Play the odds and see if they wave in the wind again, this time for a righteous reason: to set things straight.

*Up the stam regen, AT THE VERY LEAST!

trimsic_ESO · August 2014

@apostate9‌
At a first place, I really thought you were joking. Finally, I believe you are serious when you state that stamina is not designed to be a main source of DPS and should not be considered as equal to magicka.

I would like to laugh out loudly; but for the sake of all the players who want to play a melee DPS class in ESO I won't.

The game is currently broken as magicka builds are way too powerful compared to stamina builds. This does not mean that the game will never be balanced. At least I hope so, because otherwise:
- Why should I wear an intermediate armor?
- Why should I equip dual wield weapon skills in my bar?
- Why should I equip 2 handed weapon skills in my bar?

Oh, I currently know the answer: because I'm just stupid. I should open my eyes and go for light armor, a destruction staff, and vampire skills. Done.

But this is not what I want for the future of the game. I deeply regret that the developers take a long time to fix these issues. Because this is leading to a lot of frustration, and people are still canceling their sub partly because of that.

Kego · August 2014

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

4. Skill tree design
- A complete redesign of 2 handed and dual wield skill trees is an absolute must. These skills have no interesting synergies, and do not deal enough damage.

Are you kidding? Dual Wield is the best balanced Weapon Tree from all Stamina Weapons at the moment.

Blood Craze, good bleed dmg and a self heal HoT, only used to refresh.
Rapid Strikes, Main DMG Skill to spam and Haste Buff
Steel Tornado, great AOE that hits like a truck as soon as the Trash hits Low Health.
Heated Blade, nice Defense Skill and little DMG buff
Flying Blade, awesome DMG from 28y range, help to keep up DPS if you can't stay in range from the Boss.

If any Weapons needs adjustments than 2Handers and Bows but not Dual Wield and SnB.

single target attacks done with the bow deal more damage than any other melee weapon abilities. This makes absolutely no sense.

Really, than tell my why I can see Dual Wield Builds with Flurry that deal around 700-850 DPS Prepatch 1.3, and no Bow Build?

Light Attacks from Bow deal around 250 DMG, the Main Skill from Bows Venom Arrow around 250 DMG as well. The only hard hitting Skill is Snipe, that hits out of Stealth for ~1.300 DMG and normal Attacks of ~700DMG but that skill needs 2 seconds to be fired and can only released if the target stays at least 10y away, if not the attack is canceled.

Kego · August 2014

.....

zbtiqua · August 2014

Kego wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

4. Skill tree design
- A complete redesign of 2 handed and dual wield skill trees is an absolute must. These skills have no interesting synergies, and do not deal enough damage.

Are you kidding? Dual Wield is the best balanced Weapon Tree from all Stamina Weapons at the moment.
Blood Craze, good bleed dmg and a self heal HoT, only used to refresh.

Rapid Strikes, Main DMG Skill to spam and Haste Buff

Steel Tornado, great AOE that hits like a truck as soon as the Trash hits Low Health.

Heated Blade, nice Defense Skill and little DMG buff

Flying Blade, awesome DMG from 28y range, help to keep up DPS if you can't stay in range from the Boss.

If any Weapons needs adjustments than 2Handers and Bows but not Dual Wield and SnB.

Stam DW is the strongest dps output for a stam build that I have seen so far, but it is still easily 20-30% lower than magicka builds. Period. If you don't know this, then you haven't min-maxed fully. Furthermore, DW requires you to be IN MELEE. For anyone who has a basic knowledge of combat in this game, you will understand that in most scenarios, this is a disadvantage. In complicated fights, ranged builds do more damage in virtually all cases, including bow vs DW.

If anyone in the game can show me a Hard Mode Hel Ra Parse with a Stam build DW only character over 1,200 dps, I will delete my account. I could easily find you a douzen who can accomplish that with light armor destro/resto builds.

Lastely- with regard to the "haste" buff from rapid strikes... what exactly do you intend to use that for? Because, basically any scenario in which you use more than one left-click attack in a row is a dps loss, and the haste (so far as i know) has no impact on animation/ability GCD or cast/channel speed. So, what's the point?

CapuchinSeven · August 2014

zbtiqua wrote: »

Lastely- with regard to the "haste" buff from rapid strikes... what exactly do you intend to use that for? Because, basically any scenario in which you use more than one left-click attack in a row is a dps loss, and the haste (so far as i know) has no impact on animation/ability GCD or cast/channel speed. So, what's the point?

The highest DPS DW build I've seen uses animation cancelling with a heavy strike like magic builds. Haste has a morph that boosts heavy strike damage.

Kego · August 2014

zbtiqua wrote: »

Stam DW is the strongest dps output for a stam build that I have seen so far, but it is still easily 20-30% lower than magicka builds. Period. If you don't know this, then you haven't min-maxed fully.

I don't see a problem here. I raided a long time in WoW and there has been encounter where Range DPS was hitting with 30-40% more DPS and it wasn't a problem outside the 1% world first kill Raid guilds.

If all Stamina Builds would stay 20% behind Magicka, I would call it balanced. But currently their is only a DW Build that can hope to achieve 1.000 DPS. And some people say a Bow Build could do it as well, but currently no one was able to show me a build that can bring this 1.000 DPS at Boss Fights.

Furthermore, DW requires you to be IN MELEE. For anyone who has a basic knowledge of combat in this game, you will understand that in most scenarios, this is a disadvantage. In complicated fights, ranged builds do more damage in virtually all cases, including bow vs DW.

Nothing new. In every MMO a good Range DPS will always make a higher DPS than Melee. And once again, if all Melee Stamina Builds would only be 20% weaker than RangeDPS, no one would cry out. Reality is, that Melee DPS is in most Builds about 50% weaker than excpecially Magicka Builds.

If anyone in the game can show me a Hard Mode Hel Ra Parse with a Stam build DW only character over 1,200 dps, I will delete my account. I could easily find you a douzen who can accomplish that with light armor destro/resto builds.

Nerf 10% Bonus DMG from Resto Staff, Magicka Regenration with Blocking from Resto Staff, Spell Symetrie from Mage Guild and Elemental Drain from Destruction Staff and show me again a light armor destru/resto Build that will hit 1.200 DPS.

Only reason why magicka is as strong is the totally nuts regenration of it. Magicka should as well as Stamina runs dry after 45-60 seconds of combat. Than we will see, who deliver the best DPS in this game.

Lastely- with regard to the "haste" buff from rapid strikes... what exactly do you intend to use that for? Because, basically any scenario in which you use more than one left-click attack in a row is a dps loss, and the haste (so far as i know) has no impact on animation/ability GCD or cast/channel speed. So, what's the point?

Heavy Attack cancelling, even if this should be removed completly from this game. It is just stupid to have such a mechanic in game for max. DPS.

khele23eb17_ESO · August 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Lastely- with regard to the "haste" buff from rapid strikes... what exactly do you intend to use that for? Because, basically any scenario in which you use more than one left-click attack in a row is a dps loss, and the haste (so far as i know) has no impact on animation/ability GCD or cast/channel speed. So, what's the point?

The highest DPS DW build I've seen uses animation cancelling with a heavy strike like magic builds. Haste has a morph that boosts heavy strike damage.

You need to read what youre replying to.

zbtiqua wrote: »

with regard to the "haste" buff from rapid strikes...