Getting to the root of the stamina/magicka problem.

TehMagnus

There is no issue. Stamina builds are on par with magicka builds on PVP when used correctly.
As for trials, the easy solution is to enable bleeding/poison effect on bosses so that stamina players can also place dots on bosses.

I just saw a 2H DK pull 1300 dps on AA first boss, there are other builds out there. Instead of debating why stamina should be buffed or magicka nerfed, your time would be better spent theorycrafting and trying stamina sets.

zazamalek

zbtiqua wrote: »

DW requires you to be IN MELEE. For anyone who has a basic knowledge of combat in this game, you will understand that in most scenarios, this is a disadvantage. In complicated fights, ranged builds do more damage in virtually all cases, including bow vs DW.

Not to diminish your argument, pay special attention to your melee range next time you are in AA. From what we've been able to tell it is artificially increased in that dungeon, especially with the wispmother. It's completely possible to remain safe at this melee range (provided you watch your feet more closely than the others have to).

Just something that might help if you ever are in there with a melee weapon.

apostate9

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@apostate9‌
At a first place, I really thought you were joking. Finally, I believe you are serious when you state that stamina is not designed to be a main source of DPS and should not be considered as equal to magicka.

I would like to laugh out loudly; but for the sake of all the players who want to play a melee DPS class in ESO I won't.

The game is currently broken as magicka builds are way too powerful compared to stamina builds. This does not mean that the game will never be balanced. At least I hope so, because otherwise:
- Why should I wear an intermediate armor?
- Why should I equip dual wield weapon skills in my bar?
- Why should I equip 2 handed weapon skills in my bar?

Oh, I currently know the answer: because I'm just stupid. I should open my eyes and go for light armor, a destruction staff, and vampire skills. Done.

But this is not what I want for the future of the game. I deeply regret that the developers take a long time to fix these issues. Because this is leading to a lot of frustration, and people are still canceling their sub partly because of that.

That was a lot of words just to say "I still don't get it."

So cool. See ya in Cyrodiil!

zbtiqua

magnusnet wrote: »

There is no issue. Stamina builds are on par with magicka builds on PVP when used correctly.
As for trials, the easy solution is to enable bleeding/poison effect on bosses so that stamina players can also place dots on bosses.

I just saw a 2H DK pull 1300 dps on AA first boss, there are other builds out there. Instead of debating why stamina should be buffed or magicka nerfed, your time would be better spent theorycrafting and trying stamina sets.

1300 dps on a 15 second storm atronarch fight is not impressive. First of all, I have personally done over 2,000 dps on that fight on a destro/resto DK. Second of all, that 2H DK will not be able to sustain 1300 dps over a longer fight, I promise you. So effectively, your post is basically pointless. You have only demonstrated a lack of knowledge of what you are talking about.

With regard to PVP, I will defer to others. This balancing issue has different considerations. I specialize more in the PVE aspects.

Dubah

Here is my idea on the whole thing, the biggest problem for stamina builds is stamina, and everything uses stamina. Dodge roll and break free use a % of stamina which really hurts stamina builds. Where as spell casters use stamina just for dodge rolling and break free and maybe a little blocking, so why not switch that? Give night blades or hell even by choice we can do, an ability like a teleport that uses magicka instead of stamina? When a stamina build double taps instead of rolling they use magicka to create a cloud of smoke and simply moves through the shadows backwards (obviously the same distance and time it takes for a dodge roll) and then that will be one bird to kill with stamina builds, you have no idea how much that will help out stamina builds. Also with break free just make it a magicka use. Also make this is a choice at the start of character or a level 10 trait to choose, something like that would be a pretty big jump start in the right direction

khele23eb17_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

I just saw a 2H DK pull 1300 dps on AA first boss, there are other builds out there. Instead of debating why stamina should be buffed or magicka nerfed, your time would be better spent theorycrafting and trying stamina sets.

As someone already pointed out 1.3k on a short fight is not that impressive. You cant sustain it on a longer encounter and even on the short one you can do significantly better with a staff.

trimsic_ESO

If stamina builds were on par with magicka builds, then:
- why most people equip a light armor and a destruction staff in Cyrodiil?
- why in the death recap window, we can hardly find any stamina based skills?

While some 2H DK pull 1.3k DPS on a boss, sorcerers with a destruction staff pull 1.7k DPS quite often.

Kego

Because they don't want to spend their points in Destru Staff, Resto Staff and another 1-2 Weapons for PVP.
And there you have your PvP with mostly Light Armor and Staff User in Cyrodiil.

I would even suggest that any Stamina User in Cyrdoiil play in PvE a Tank or is not interessted in PvE at all.

Hridh

Great analysis OP! sadly I can only notice its truth

demonlkojipub19_ESO

1.4 won't change much. They are finally nerfing the concentration trait of light armor. Will give max of 28% spell penetration. The wizards haven't started complaining about that nerf yet tho, and when they do they will probably revert it in 1.4.2. Everything else is super meh without separating the resource cost of stamina abilities and standard survival.

At the rate they are going it will take another 5 Major updates before the warrior type becomes on-par with the wizard type. Probably even have to wait for the first expansion. Wonder how many waiting will "support" them that long...

Lynx7386

Nerfing concentration is only going to buff light armor in return, since it provides more spell resistance than heavy or medium armor. Light armor wearers will have more protection against other light armor wearers (at a slight damage cost), and will still do more damage to medium/heavy armor wearers with spells.

I've already given up and cancelled my sub. All the devs are doing at this point is throwing darts at an idea board while blindfolded.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nerfing concentration is only going to buff light armor in return, since it provides more spell resistance than heavy or medium armor. Light armor wearers will have more protection against other light armor wearers (at a slight damage cost), and will still do more damage to medium/heavy armor wearers with spells.

I've already given up and cancelled my sub. All the devs are doing at this point is throwing darts at an idea board while blindfolded.

Dev 2: *Spits out coffie* Hah, we were doing that the other day!
Dev 1: Dude, that was an insult
Dev 2: .... Oh

trimsic_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nerfing concentration is only going to buff light armor in return, since it provides more spell resistance than heavy or medium armor. Light armor wearers will have more protection against other light armor wearers (at a slight damage cost), and will still do more damage to medium/heavy armor wearers with spells.

I've already given up and cancelled my sub. All the devs are doing at this point is throwing darts at an idea board while blindfolded.

Not really: the magical damage output will decrease, period. Not all the players have a light armor; most of them have one, but not all of them.

Lynx7386

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nerfing concentration is only going to buff light armor in return, since it provides more spell resistance than heavy or medium armor. Light armor wearers will have more protection against other light armor wearers (at a slight damage cost), and will still do more damage to medium/heavy armor wearers with spells.

I've already given up and cancelled my sub. All the devs are doing at this point is throwing darts at an idea board while blindfolded.

Not really: the magical damage output will decrease, period. Not all the players have a light armor; most of them have one, but not all of them.

Dont think you quite understood what I meant.

Light armor offers two things relevant to this issue:
1. Spell Penetration (which increases damage against high-resistance targets)
2. Spell Resistance (which decreases damage taken from spells).

The spell penetration is getting cut in half, so yes, casters will do less damage. However, while this is going to slightly decrease their damage output vs other casters, it wont matter at all against medium armor targets, and will only take a fraction of the impact against heavy armor targets.

In exchange, anyone wearing light armor just got a defensive -buff- because enemies wearing light armor will now be doing less damage to them as well.

MorHawk

Okay, back from vacation. Time to check up on how this farce is going...

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

So... and it's kinda impossible to not read all these replies without a grin on my face...

Crap, you're redefining arrogance here.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

because this is the internet and because some of you are clearly about to suffer massive internet rage bold and italics heart attacks, I'll clarify something.

You are all replying to a strawman argument.

First. My first post in this thread agreed there is a problem with stamina builds. Like it or not, the primary issue with stamina builds is stamina regen, stamina builds hit 800+ DPS but they can't hold it for over 30 seconds. The reason magic builds can do this is because they can literally never run out of magic (struggling to understand how people can't know that, it's a game fact, they literally never run out of magic, why are some of you even arguing that point? Comical). With the ability to turn health into magic even when light armour and restoration staff siphon regen fails them, in a raid setting with healing circle spam, magic builds never run out of magic. Stamina builds can't do that.

Now it's my turn to grin. Matter of fact, that's hilarious. Just went ahead and highlighted the strawman in that paragraph. Unless of course you can find *any* quotes in this thread where someone argued magicka's insane regen abilities. Matter of fact, I'm still waiting for the quote where I said that a "no class ability build" was feasible. But please, do keep ignoring the bits where you embarrass yourself.

Having said that, I will agree that folks have leapt onto your comments thinking that you support this set-up, simply because you stated your opinion that ZOS intended it that way.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Second. My second follow up post was in reply to the question "what am I meant to do" in regards to a 2 handed sword having a weak filler. The answer I gave was NOT commentary on stamina builds, it was a simple piece of advice from someone with an 800 DPS stamina build. It is not my view on stamina builds and was not a statement on stamina builds.

It doesn't matter if you don't like it, this was built as a class game and if you find a gap in your weapon, ZOS intend for you to either fill that slot with a class skill or weapon swap to a weapon that can fill that slot.

This is NOT a statement of my agreement with how the game is/was built. I don't like that the game is a class game, I don't think a TES game should have ever been a class game.

Again, I totally get that you're not trying to endorse the current set-up, but the more you argue for the logic of the current system, the less credible your statement is. And frig, the issue raised with bows and DW isn't even anything to do with classes. Other weapons demonstrate far greater flexibility, and the fact that you're even calling it a class issue betrays a lack of understanding.

Regardless though, no matter how many times you repeat the whole "ZOS meant it that way, get used to it" mantra, it still sounds no less palatable. We're not going to get anywhere arguing ZOS's intentions, so please let's leave that out. Regardless of what it was supposed to be... well, Stx said it best:

Stx wrote: »

If you don't see the giant problem with that, then sorry man, I don't know what to tell you. You may have this vision about what the Dev's feel the game should be, but that is your vision... and no offense but it stinks.

Aaaaand finally...

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

The highest DPS DW build I've seen uses animation cancelling with a heavy strike like magic builds. Haste has a morph that boosts heavy strike damage.

You need to read what you're replying to.

zbtiqua wrote: »

with regard to the "haste" buff from rapid strikes...

Forgive me a big ol' LOL here.

trimsic_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nerfing concentration is only going to buff light armor in return, since it provides more spell resistance than heavy or medium armor. Light armor wearers will have more protection against other light armor wearers (at a slight damage cost), and will still do more damage to medium/heavy armor wearers with spells.

I've already given up and cancelled my sub. All the devs are doing at this point is throwing darts at an idea board while blindfolded.

Not really: the magical damage output will decrease, period. Not all the players have a light armor; most of them have one, but not all of them.

Dont think you quite understood what I meant.

Light armor offers two things relevant to this issue:
1. Spell Penetration (which increases damage against high-resistance targets)
2. Spell Resistance (which decreases damage taken from spells).

The spell penetration is getting cut in half, so yes, casters will do less damage. However, while this is going to slightly decrease their damage output vs other casters, it wont matter at all against medium armor targets, and will only take a fraction of the impact against heavy armor targets.

In exchange, anyone wearing light armor just got a defensive -buff- because enemies wearing light armor will now be doing less damage to them as well.

Yes, classes wearing a light armor will deal less damage, and they will still have a good spell resistance. Therefore, classes wearing an intermediate armor and playing with dual wield weapons will take less magical damage when they rush them with Steel Tornado, which deals physical damage.

May be you did not see that because we are all used to see a lot of people wearing a light armor and only a few wearing something else; we are all used to see a lot of people dealing magical damage and only a few dealing physical damage.

In short, this is a mean to slightly balance the issue with physical builds not being on par with magical builds.

CapuchinSeven

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Everything else is super meh without separating the resource cost of stamina abilities and standard survival.

I really don't agree with these views and really doesn't bring anything to the table, in full 7 medium with 1800-2000 stamina my bar barely moves when I move in stealth or when I run and I can get around 9 maybe 10 dodge rolls from a full stamina bar, in my light armour even when I'm using all my attacks from magicka I still end up stamina starved and can barley manage 2-3 dodge rolls.

Fact is in PVP at least, outside of blobbed impulse spam (which is an issue with blobbing not with armour, it would be just as bad if they all did it in heavy armour really) hybrid builds are much stronger and once you're used to it, stamina management isn't an issue.

Note, before we get yet another lame strawman argument, I'm not saying I can't run out of stamina and die but that's what my smaller magic pool is for, and I can spend it all on Dark Cloak, besides my magic PVP build can run out of magic as well and I get little to no dodges out of that build even when all my stamina is saved for them and with all my magic used for attack I can often have little left for Dark Cloak.

Hell when I feel like being really cocky I can throw on a Warlock hood, shoulders and jewels on my stamina build and get a ton of extra Dark Cloaks out of it. Point is, my stamina build is just as survivable, maybe even more so than my magic build when played correctly.

I think people should stop trying to play stamina builds like they play their magic builds, that would be a good start.

In PVE raids the issue is mainly one of magic builds being able to never run out of magicka thanks to converting health to magicka and then getting healed.

Also, classes and the theme park feel to things seem to come late in the development, it was almost like they had it dropped on them by the suits but you just can't get away from the game is a class game right now and you've got to make a build (stamina or magic) with that in mind.

Hopefully this will change somewhat with spell crafting.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

You need to read what youre replying to.

Yes I see sorry, was only a passing comment though, I'm pretty sure you've likely misread something before.

Tankqull

as i have said several times the dmg per skill usage of all weapons lines is not that much a part, but what makes magicka abilities generate a higher dps is their by far better sustainability due to equilibrium and heal staff heavy attacks.
wich are head and shoulder ahead of all possible stamina regs combined.

so from my point of view the skills granting stamina need a severe upgrade (as pvp proofs the burst abuility of stamina builds is perfectly in line with magica builds a flat dmg increase oder stamina cost reduction would unbalance the current balanced situation)
aura of restauration: needs to be changed to a flat stamina reg instead of a % regrate increasement maybe combined with an additional stamina cost reduction buff for defensive abilities.
spear shard synergy: needs to be changed to an ae effect (effecting multiple friendly targets) to compensate for its reuse cooldown
evil hunter: the stamina re-proc needs to proc against any type of target with maybe a reduced chance but not only deadra, undead and WW
structured entropy morph could be changed to have a xx% chance to proc a stamina heal comparable to degenerations heal effect.
the list could go on and on but the stamina reg abilities are the true crux of the situation.

Lynx7386

If light and heavy weapon attacks werent so pathetic, perhaps sustainability wouldnt be a problem for stamina builds.

I expect to deal some damage when I charge a 2handed heavy attack, but the actual effect is little more than a scratch.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Everything else is super meh without separating the resource cost of stamina abilities and standard survival.

I really don't agree with these views and really doesn't bring anything to the table, in full 7 medium with 1800-2000 stamina my bar barely moves when I move in stealth or when I run and I can get around 9 maybe 10 dodge rolls from a full stamina bar, in my light armour even when I'm using all my attacks from magicka I still end up stamina starved and can barley manage 2-3 dodge rolls.

Fact is in PVP at least, outside of blobbed impulse spam (which is an issue with blobbing not with armour, it would be just as bad if they all did it in heavy armour really) hybrid builds are much stronger and once you're used to it, stamina management isn't an issue.

Note, before we get yet another lame strawman argument, I'm not saying I can't run out of stamina and die but that's what my smaller magic pool is for, and I can spend it all on Dark Cloak, besides my magic PVP build can run out of magic as well and I get little to no dodges out of that build even when all my stamina is saved for them and with all my magic used for attack I can often have little left for Dark Cloak.

Hell when I feel like being really cocky I can throw on a Warlock hood, shoulders and jewels on my stamina build and get a ton of extra Dark Cloaks out of it. Point is, my stamina build is just as survivable, maybe even more so than my magic build when played correctly.

I think people should stop trying to play stamina builds like they play their magic builds, that would be a good start.

In PVE raids the issue is mainly one of magic builds being able to never run out of magicka thanks to converting health to magicka and then getting healed.

Also, classes and the theme park feel to things seem to come late in the development, it was almost like they had it dropped on them by the suits but you just can't get away from the game is a class game right now and you've got to make a build (stamina or magic) with that in mind.

Hopefully this will change somewhat with spell crafting.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

You need to read what youre replying to.

Yes I see sorry, was only a passing comment though, I'm pretty sure you've likely misread something before.

Well you point out one of the major glaring issues with the system. You either HYBRID, or you go ALL MAGICKA. that is a major problem. No one can go all stamina, ever, because of how the system is set up and how stamina drains are everywhere, and its far from playing how you want. Theres no way you can take a DW or a 2H into an actual large Cyrodil and keep your stamina, but people rush in with staves + magicka build all the time and just ruin people. You couldn't actually use the weapon. Blocking will deplete your stamina, dodging will deplete it, and CC breaking will deplete it. Every single time you use a melee weapon skill, you make yourself easier to kill. So what that you can sneak for longer. Big whoop.

And then you mention one of the most OP magicka based sets in the game, the new FOTM after magicka furnace got the nerf bat. I don't see why you even bother to pretend you are a stamina build. You can rock all magicka and decimate. There are absolutely no Stamina based equivalents. No stamina cost reduction sets and no stamina return sets period. The only thing you get out of stamina sets is from the 2-4 set bonuses, and then the 5 set will be weapon damage or something unrelated to DPS.

You think things are fine and dandy but they are as broken as broke can be. If you don't see this as a reason why the majority of players wear light armor and use staves then idk. People even use 1h/sh with light armor instead of even thinking about rocking the heavy armor. Magicka regen, spell pen, spell cost reduction Win at everything over any other armors and make weapon attacks laughable. 1.4 will reduce the amount of spell pen light armor can get, but thats not going to take people out of their light armor so as long as the the classes based on magicka and stamina gets penalized so heavily.

CapuchinSeven

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Theres no way you can take a DW or a 2H into an actual large Cyrodil and keep your stamina, but people rush in with staves + magicka build all the time and just ruin people.

What? What does that have to do with stamina? I can't take my magic NB melee build into the middle of a keep fight either, I line my target up before I switch to melee burst I don't just run in shouting "omg duelz weildz, no regetz!".

That's a melee ranged issue and would be just as bad if they removed all light armour from the game and is not just an ESO issue.

I've already commented on my stamina build survivability.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

And then you mention one of the most OP magicka based sets in the game, the new FOTM after magicka furnace got the nerf bat. I don't see why you even bother to pretend you are a stamina build.

lol om gosh you people. I said I can throw it on if I'm feeling cocky, I have more than one build, my main as mentioned many times elsewhere is full 7 medium, 4 Ashen, 5 Hundings, bow/DW and sometimes a 2H/DW. No vamp or WW.

I have 3200 health, 2000 stamina, 1200 magicka and weapon damage soft capped with 50 magic regen and 140 stamina regen. My attack damage (other than a single class melee ultimate) is all weapon attacks using class magic only for CC.

Just WHAT would you call that Lord of Who Does and Doesn't Have a Stamina Build? Because at total worse that's a stamina heavy hybrid build.

Honest question, do you expect me to run around with no class skills at all?

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

You think things are fine and dandy but they are as broken as broke can be. If you don't see this as a reason why the majority of players wear light armor and use staves then idk.

lol what?! What are you even talking about? Yet another person taking a single post on one thing and talking about something else.

I commented on the need for a 2nd bar for dodging and running, I don't think it's needed.

7 medium and 2000 stamina with practice my stamina issues have become much less of a problem and in fact I'm relying on my many many dodges far more than a bugged Dark Cloak. I never said anything was fine and dandy or why people wear light armour, in fact in a number of posts in this thread I've made I've commented on why people wear light armour.

Jaxom

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Theres no way you can take a DW or a 2H into an actual large Cyrodil and keep your stamina, but people rush in with staves + magicka build all the time and just ruin people.

I don't just run in shouting "omg duelz weildz, no regetz!".

I was totally doing this last night. It didn't end well......on a side note, is there nothing more satisfying than the sound of Flying Dagger as you run through a crowd?

CapuchinSeven

Jaxom wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Theres no way you can take a DW or a 2H into an actual large Cyrodil and keep your stamina, but people rush in with staves + magicka build all the time and just ruin people.

I don't just run in shouting "omg duelz weildz, no regetz!".

I was totally doing this last night. It didn't end well......on a side note, is there nothing more satisfying than the sound of Flying Dagger as you run through a crowd?

My new fave when I spot a group trying to hide and gather up for an attack, is to run in with the bow using dodge and the bow speed boost around and around over and over while spamming fear. It's amazing just how easy it is to ruin their day as they try and lock you down.

Jaxom

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Theres no way you can take a DW or a 2H into an actual large Cyrodil and keep your stamina, but people rush in with staves + magicka build all the time and just ruin people.

I don't just run in shouting "omg duelz weildz, no regetz!".

I was totally doing this last night. It didn't end well......on a side note, is there nothing more satisfying than the sound of Flying Dagger as you run through a crowd?

My new fave when I spot a group trying to hide and gather up for an attack, is to run in with the bow using dodge and the bow speed boost around and around over and over while spamming fear. It's amazing just how easy it is to ruin their day as they try and lock you down.

Yeah, I had this happen last night expect I blew up. Was stalking a DC around some rocks. In Mumble, I'm like, "Hey Guys, I see 2 DC over here." I walk over, there are like 30+ in stealth all concentrated in one spot. My NB went from 100% to 0% in .01s.

CapuchinSeven

Jaxom wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Theres no way you can take a DW or a 2H into an actual large Cyrodil and keep your stamina, but people rush in with staves + magicka build all the time and just ruin people.

I don't just run in shouting "omg duelz weildz, no regetz!".

I was totally doing this last night. It didn't end well......on a side note, is there nothing more satisfying than the sound of Flying Dagger as you run through a crowd?

My new fave when I spot a group trying to hide and gather up for an attack, is to run in with the bow using dodge and the bow speed boost around and around over and over while spamming fear. It's amazing just how easy it is to ruin their day as they try and lock you down.

Yeah, I had this happen last night expect I blew up. Was stalking a DC around some rocks. In Mumble, I'm like, "Hey Guys, I see 2 DC over here." I walk over, there are like 30+ in stealth all concentrated in one spot. My NB went from 100% to 0% in .01s.

haha yeah 30 players in stealth can really ruin a perfect night of PVP.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Theres no way you can take a DW or a 2H into an actual large Cyrodil and keep your stamina, but people rush in with staves + magicka build all the time and just ruin people.

What? What does that have to do with stamina? I can't take my magic NB melee build into the middle of a keep fight either, I line my target up before I switch to melee burst I don't just run in shouting "omg duelz weildz, no regetz!".

That's a melee ranged issue and would be just as bad if they removed all light armour from the game and is not just an ESO issue.

I've already commented on my stamina build survivability.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

And then you mention one of the most OP magicka based sets in the game, the new FOTM after magicka furnace got the nerf bat. I don't see why you even bother to pretend you are a stamina build.

lol om gosh you people. I said I can throw it on if I'm feeling cocky, I have more than one build, my main as mentioned many times elsewhere is full 7 medium, 4 Ashen, 5 Hundings, bow/DW and sometimes a 2H/DW. No vamp or WW.

I have 3200 health, 2000 stamina, 1200 magicka and weapon damage soft capped with 50 magic regen and 140 stamina regen. My attack damage (other than a single class melee ultimate) is all weapon attacks using class magic only for CC.

Just WHAT would you call that Lord of Who Does and Doesn't Have a Stamina Build? Because at total worse that's a stamina heavy hybrid build.

Honest question, do you expect me to run around with no class skills at all?

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

You think things are fine and dandy but they are as broken as broke can be. If you don't see this as a reason why the majority of players wear light armor and use staves then idk.

lol what?! What are you even talking about? Yet another person taking a single post on one thing and talking about something else.

I commented on the need for a 2nd bar for dodging and running, I don't think it's needed.

7 medium and 2000 stamina with practice my stamina issues have become much less of a problem and in fact I'm relying on my many many dodges far more than a bugged Dark Cloak. I never said anything was fine and dandy or why people wear light armour, in fact in a number of posts in this thread I've made I've commented on why people wear light armour.

I've got 3.1k hp, 2.3k stam, and 1.6k magicka. If you don't see a problem stamina abilities sharing resource with the dodge you like to do 6 times in a row or so, then you're just unable to see the real issues. There won't be any balance until they change that among other things.

The very OP actually spells it all out clearly. None of it is wrong, none of it.

CapuchinSeven

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

If you don't think stamina abilities sharing resource with the dodge you like to do 6 times in a row or so, then you're just unable to see the real issues.

Oh right, that must be it, I just don't see the real issues.

It's just not an argument that actually stands up in PVP and you've not actually addressed the point, just hand waved it.

In PVP with light armour you'll get maybe 2 dodges.

In PVP with my stamina being used for attacks I'll still get double that minimum with 140 stamina regen and 7 medium armour, throw in Siphoning Strikes or Green Dragon Blood and you've got even more to play with.

The way some tell it anyone using just magic has this huuuge stash of stamina to just use for dodging all day and it just doesn't work that way in practice when you're in light armour. Magic builds have to rely on their magic pool for defense AND attack with skills like Dark Cloak, Heals and Bolt Escape, just the same way stamina builds have to rely on their stamina pool being used for defense and attack.

My stamina build gets only a few Dark Cloaks but a lot of dodges.

My magic build gets a lot of Dark Cloaks but only a few dodges.

The main discrepancy is that there are more skills currently in game that favor magic regen using things like mages guild and resto staff, creating a new bar for dodging and running doesn't change that and really doesn't actually address the problems, which is... there are more skills currently in game that favor magic regen...

That issue is an even bigger problem in PVE where it can create a never ending supply of magic in raid settings.

Adding in a dodge bar really isn't going to fix the problem and I really am not keen on it as an idea myself.

MorHawk

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

The way some tell it anyone using just magic has this huuuge stash of stamina to just use for dodging all day and it just doesn't work that way in practice when you're in light armour. Magic builds have to rely on their magic pool for defense AND attack with skills like Dark Cloak, Heals and Bolt Escape, just the same way stamina builds have to rely on their stamina pool being used for defense and attack.

Adding in a dodge bar really isn't going to fix the problem and I really am not keen on it as an idea myself.

I really have to just throw a big ol' +1 onto this. People need to get used to the fact that "pure" builds will always be sub-par. Can't be competitive when you ignore a resource. And adding a third bar/combining mag+stam are cop-out moves. This can be fixed without sacrificing diversity.

That said, I can't help but laugh that I've shattered your arguments so much that you've now stopped even responding to me. Sorry, couldn't resist.

CapuchinSeven

MorHawk wrote: »

That said, I can't help but laugh that I've shattered your arguments so much that you've now stopped even responding to me. Sorry, couldn't resist.

wut?

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Adding in a different resource bar for dodge, block, etc is ONE of the fixes needed, not the fix. I simply see it as one of the biggest balance flaws.