The Elder Mages online

Xsorus

Cydone wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

One of my guild leaders plays a NB with DW and Resto and 7 medium. He is stacked up on weapon crit with the latest patch and wrecks face.

And, he uses a Stick....

And, dual wield. He also uses a bow intermittently. The point being the NB is very strong if you understand how to use the abilities to your advantage. The fact is this: NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game, period. There are enough proven facts out there, it should be indisputable, but of course there are so many morons playing ESO that don't know how to play that these facts get brushed under the rug.

Yes, NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game......but how often are you running into 1v1's in pve OR pvp? They are very few and far in between. AOE's win fights, both in PvE and PvP. And NB only has 1 AOE ability really in Lotus fan which takes magicka and does crap AOE damage and then Veil of Blades....which is AWESOME. But it's an Ultimate. Whirlwind is a decent AOE when you morph it to give back stamina......but the point is you have to do SO much more to make stamina builds viable and the same isn't required of magicka builds. There is a HUGE balance gap between Restro/Destro Magicka users and 2h/DW/Bow Stamina users. The ESO development even said this is true at QuakeCon.

Ummm night blades have power drain, which can be converted in either a 9 target pbae or a pbae lifetap, both incredibly good.

Xsorus

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

NookyZooky wrote: »

i want to say something about the 2h skill line, since we are talking about stamina weapons

this skill line needs a block breaker!!! half of this skill line has awful abilities. how about putting a block breaker in it somewhere?? increase the damage two handed weapons do, and put a block breaker in it. im tired of having this giant sword, only for it to be blocked the entire battle:(

good idea, Should make it a passive, arcane fighter is 100% useless and a waste of skill points, they could have a passive that bypasses up 50% of a block, put a 5 second CD on it.

*make it real nice and have it also give some minor armor pen.*

Umm arcane fighter is actually what makes 2 handed weapon incredibly good for pvp

right cause a 130 point DoT is what wins fights?

No, but if swap disease onto your weapon like every sane person would you get a perma healing debuff that you apply to your target.

moxiesauce

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

NookyZooky wrote: »

i want to say something about the 2h skill line, since we are talking about stamina weapons

this skill line needs a block breaker!!! half of this skill line has awful abilities. how about putting a block breaker in it somewhere?? increase the damage two handed weapons do, and put a block breaker in it. im tired of having this giant sword, only for it to be blocked the entire battle:(

good idea, Should make it a passive, arcane fighter is 100% useless and a waste of skill points, they could have a passive that bypasses up 50% of a block, put a 5 second CD on it.

*make it real nice and have it also give some minor armor pen.*

Umm arcane fighter is actually what makes 2 handed weapon incredibly good for pvp

right cause a 130 point DoT is what wins fights?

No, but if swap disease onto your weapon like every sane person would you get a perma healing debuff that you apply to your target.

ok 1 use that's only useful in 20% of PvP ONLY situations.. would be much better to change it to a block breaking passive, and completely redo uppercut so it's instant and gives a healing debuff, and doesn't knock back.

Xsorus

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

NookyZooky wrote: »

i want to say something about the 2h skill line, since we are talking about stamina weapons

this skill line needs a block breaker!!! half of this skill line has awful abilities. how about putting a block breaker in it somewhere?? increase the damage two handed weapons do, and put a block breaker in it. im tired of having this giant sword, only for it to be blocked the entire battle:(

good idea, Should make it a passive, arcane fighter is 100% useless and a waste of skill points, they could have a passive that bypasses up 50% of a block, put a 5 second CD on it.

*make it real nice and have it also give some minor armor pen.*

Umm arcane fighter is actually what makes 2 handed weapon incredibly good for pvp

right cause a 130 point DoT is what wins fights?

No, but if swap disease onto your weapon like every sane person would you get a perma healing debuff that you apply to your target.

ok 1 use that's only useful in 20% of PvP ONLY situations.. would be much better to change it to a block breaking passive, and completely redo uppercut so it's instant and gives a healing debuff, and doesn't knock back.

It's useful in every encounter because everyone heals. You also get access to an execute, a guaranteed critical hit on charge, plus a long duration immobilize if ya morph it. The cone isn't terrible either for defense or ultimate gain and uppercut is alright. The only *** ability in that line momentum. Other then that it's perfectly ok for pvp. PvE it's *** for trials but then most stamina builds are except for dual wield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5QjAxh1nM

I use two hander in this video in some of the fights, in fact generally if i'm grouping with my healer I try and throw it on because of that healing debuff.

moxiesauce

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

NookyZooky wrote: »

i want to say something about the 2h skill line, since we are talking about stamina weapons

this skill line needs a block breaker!!! half of this skill line has awful abilities. how about putting a block breaker in it somewhere?? increase the damage two handed weapons do, and put a block breaker in it. im tired of having this giant sword, only for it to be blocked the entire battle:(

good idea, Should make it a passive, arcane fighter is 100% useless and a waste of skill points, they could have a passive that bypasses up 50% of a block, put a 5 second CD on it.

*make it real nice and have it also give some minor armor pen.*

Umm arcane fighter is actually what makes 2 handed weapon incredibly good for pvp

right cause a 130 point DoT is what wins fights?

No, but if swap disease onto your weapon like every sane person would you get a perma healing debuff that you apply to your target.

ok 1 use that's only useful in 20% of PvP ONLY situations.. would be much better to change it to a block breaking passive, and completely redo uppercut so it's instant and gives a healing debuff, and doesn't knock back.

It's useful in every encounter because everyone heals. You also get access to an execute, a guaranteed critical hit on charge, plus a long duration immobilize if ya morph it. The cone isn't terrible either for defense or ultimate gain and uppercut is alright. The only *** ability in that line momentum. Other then that it's perfectly ok for pvp. PvE it's *** for trials but then most stamina builds are except for dual wield.

yea execute is fine, charge is fine, cleave needs a dmg buff, momentum could be good if weapon dmg scaled better, they should also make momentum more group oriented. Uppercut is fine before morph, w/e, when you can morph it you pick either more DMG on next attack, which is bad because weapon dmg sucks, or reduce the damage the target does, which is a completely useless morph. if it could be morphed to be instant and removed knocked down so it's not OP/annoying then 2 handers would do better in PvE. If they refuse to change their crappy skill line, they need to at least up the swings they do.

Xsorus

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

NookyZooky wrote: »

i want to say something about the 2h skill line, since we are talking about stamina weapons

this skill line needs a block breaker!!! half of this skill line has awful abilities. how about putting a block breaker in it somewhere?? increase the damage two handed weapons do, and put a block breaker in it. im tired of having this giant sword, only for it to be blocked the entire battle:(

good idea, Should make it a passive, arcane fighter is 100% useless and a waste of skill points, they could have a passive that bypasses up 50% of a block, put a 5 second CD on it.

*make it real nice and have it also give some minor armor pen.*

Umm arcane fighter is actually what makes 2 handed weapon incredibly good for pvp

right cause a 130 point DoT is what wins fights?

No, but if swap disease onto your weapon like every sane person would you get a perma healing debuff that you apply to your target.

ok 1 use that's only useful in 20% of PvP ONLY situations.. would be much better to change it to a block breaking passive, and completely redo uppercut so it's instant and gives a healing debuff, and doesn't knock back.

It's useful in every encounter because everyone heals. You also get access to an execute, a guaranteed critical hit on charge, plus a long duration immobilize if ya morph it. The cone isn't terrible either for defense or ultimate gain and uppercut is alright. The only *** ability in that line momentum. Other then that it's perfectly ok for pvp. PvE it's *** for trials but then most stamina builds are except for dual wield.

yea execute is fine, charge is fine, cleave needs a dmg buff, momentum could be good if weapon dmg scaled better, they should also make momentum more group oriented. Uppercut is fine before morph, w/e, when you can morph it you pick either more DMG on next attack, which is bad because weapon dmg sucks, or reduce the damage the target does, which is a completely useless morph. if it could be morphed to be instant and removed knocked down so it's not OP/annoying then 2 handers would do better in PvE. If they refuse to change their crappy skill line, they need to at least up the swings they do.

Reason i don't use Uppercut has zero to do with it having a cast time, and everything to do with most good people will just Block it anyway. Not to mention bar space. Momentum just has zero point, as it lasts far to long to make the heal viable or that snare morph, and the weapon damage buff is meh because you can already get weapon damage up to cap anyway.

Though I've seen some people use Uppercut so I consider it less crappy, I've seen no one use Momentum.

Darkonflare15

My problem is that I am a melee fighter Nb warrior who on relies weapon damage so my light attacks do 200 normal, 300 when crit but when I use my stamina attacks I am doing 400 using uppercut but this attack is too slow. The basic attacks is what I have to rely on because I am a warrior I have to be in the front of bosses to do damage but since I get damage and destroyed easy I have to roll or block damage which takes away my stamina. Stamina weapons attacks should do more damage since I am sacrificing my well being to do damage. If you have to sacrifice yourself you should have better rewards but I do not. Magic abilities should not be nerf but Stamina attacks should be more damaging if I have to be in the fray of bosses and doing mosquito attacks against them and have to use the exact same stamina to keep myself alive. This is the problem a weapon skill line has so many disadvantages but know advantages. What is the point of dodging by rolling when the boss just runs to location with out a delay. Can you snare bosses or debuff them? NO. Can you use strategy against the boss? No because all you can do is block and dodge but now you cannot damage them because you are all out of stamina to do any damage. Well you can use the med armor so that you have a better chance to do all of that without sacrificing too much stamina but now you have no armor to protect you from the damaging attacks. It is just sacrificing and more sacrificing. All I want to do viable is damage not on the same level of magic but better than what I doing now. Let light attacks do more damage for a change like 400 and actually weapon abilities to do more damage like at least 700+ Other than 400 damage.

PBpsy

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

One of my guild leaders plays a NB with DW and Resto and 7 medium. He is stacked up on weapon crit with the latest patch and wrecks face.

And, he uses a Stick....

And, dual wield. He also uses a bow intermittently. The point being the NB is very strong if you understand how to use the abilities to your advantage. The fact is this: NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game, period. There are enough proven facts out there, it should be indisputable, but of course there are so many morons playing ESO that don't know how to play that these facts get brushed under the rug.

Yes, NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game......but how often are you running into 1v1's in pve OR pvp? They are very few and far in between. AOE's win fights, both in PvE and PvP. And NB only has 1 AOE ability really in Lotus fan which takes magicka and does crap AOE damage and then Veil of Blades....which is AWESOME. But it's an Ultimate. Whirlwind is a decent AOE when you morph it to give back stamina......but the point is you have to do SO much more to make stamina builds viable and the same isn't required of magicka builds. There is a HUGE balance gap between Restro/Destro Magicka users and 2h/DW/Bow Stamina users. The ESO development even said this is true at QuakeCon.

Ummm night blades have power drain, which can be converted in either a 9 target pbae or a pbae lifetap, both incredibly good.

Unfortunately your average NB fails to recognize how powerful those skills are and how much they can bring to both magicka and stamina based NBs.

Darkonflare15

Unfortunately your average NB fails to recognize how powerful those skills are and how much they can bring to both magicka and stamina based NBs.

They are powerful to certain extent but the weapon increase from the skill is still not as useful as it could be. I can get my attack just as high without the skill but I get weapon cap so I do less damage than I could possibly, which is much need for a stamina build.

Kego

I see two main issues with Stamina Builds.

1. You have no synergies with Class and Guild Skills. Both scales of Magicka and SpellDMG, something you do not have as Stamina specced Player.

2. Bad ressource management. Magicka runs never ever dry. There are tons of tools that helps you to keep your magicka up. Stamina will always runs dry after ~60 Seconds of combat. Even if you can be competitive with Magicka, you will lose against them in any fight that lasts longer than 1 minute.

Darkonflare15

Kego wrote: »

I see two main issues with Stamina Builds.

1. You have no synergies with Class and Guild Skills. Both scales of Magicka and SpellDMG, something you do not have as Stamina specced Player.

2. Bad ressource management. Magicka runs never ever dry. There are tons of tools that helps you to keep your magicka up. Stamina will always runs dry after ~60 Seconds of combat. Even if you can be competitive with Magicka, you will lose against them in any fight that lasts longer than 1 minute.

Yeah those are some of the problems. The second problem is more of a problem than the first. Right now as a Nightblade I have two skills that raise my attack which raises the damage of my stamina attacks. I have a passive that raises my stamina regen in combat by 30%, I have skills that raises my attack speed by 30% and Stamina regen for 40%. I also have a sneak passive that raises both weapon damage and spell damage by 10%. You also have a stamina and magicka resource skill with a sacrifice of 22% max weapon and spell damage. It gives 2% stamina and magicka back when using basic attacks with a chance to get 15% stamina and magicka back. This is all from my class but none of this helps my character in a long battle because the best resource lowers my attack which does not help me and I have to have a lot of enemies to do a lot of damage or I do not have room for all of the skills on my bar. At least allow me to do more damage with the weapon increase.

Vis

While I agree with most of the OP's points, I am really getting tired of threads with names:"Elder xyz Online." Could we come up with a more original name?

AlayaM

Galrukh wrote: »

NakedSnake wrote: »

Im just wondering, does anyone actually play solely stamina based in TES games. Is it me or have TES games always centered around magicka?

I have played both oblivion and skyrim with 95% stamina based builds, using magicka only for heals between fights. None of the other games have been so focused on magicka as this game is, at least that has been my experience.

The thing is, in Morrowind / Oblivion / Skyrim you had no "skillbar" like we have in ESO with the 5 buttons/ultimate slot.
It was only light/heavy attacks. As far as i remember ES games never had any hotkey-skills for weapons.
You could only do a light OR heavy attack OR cast a spell, nothing like the animation cancelling BS we have here, resulting in slower combat.

If you wanted to use a different spell you had to hotkey it or open your spellbook to swap (i guess this is our 5-skill-button-bar since you can not pause the game).

On armor: the single player ES games had no stupid OP passive skills like light armor has in ESO. Aside from the look and the enchantments on it, armor seemed to not be that much of a factor in ES (at least to me).

Luvsfuzzybunnies

moxiesauce wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

I don't believe people that wear heavy armor should be able to pull the type of DPS a person in medium/light should, and it's true due to lack of crit. I'm simply saying the weapons themselves suck. Medium and light should be the DPS builds, light also being healer, medium also being good at stealth. I haven't tested out DW too much but I know it's not much better than 2 hander if at all. They simply need to balance the weapons, every one except resto staff/S&B should be a very viable choice for putting out dmg in a group setting. There are useless passives/morphs in the 2 hand tree that need to be changed, and I'm sure the same can go for DW. They seem to have a problem balancing PvP and PvE and making it work for both, but the solution to that is simply in the scaling you get going into PvP. Fix PvE, then adjust the scaling of abilities for PvP. Other than that healing is fine and tanking is fine. Gear changes from update 3 was only a small step in the right direction.

Why not? Light and Medium armor can tank, and dps just fine..

Instead of re-balancing so heavy provides a definitive advantage for tanking, why not just allow it to be worn by melee dps and make it as competitive?

There is no reason the play style can't be differentiated, i.e. make it a heavy weapon damage build instead of crit and make. I'd much rather they expanded on the number of viable choices rather than limiting them, it is still an Elder Scrolls game after all.

true... but crit is where it's at for PvE DPS, heavy gives 0 crit. It gives weapon dmg, but weapon dmg is so terrible it's not even funny. As much as I'd like to wear full armor and put out crazy amounts of dmg I just think it would be better if they pushed heavy more for PvP, where crit isn't as important, and for tanking.

Crit not important in pvp? I guess that's why no one runs impenetrable trait on armor right? Crack in me up you are.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

NookyZooky wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

NookyZooky wrote: »

i want to say something about the 2h skill line, since we are talking about stamina weapons

this skill line needs a block breaker!!! half of this skill line has awful abilities. how about putting a block breaker in it somewhere?? increase the damage two handed weapons do, and put a block breaker in it. im tired of having this giant sword, only for it to be blocked the entire battle:(

good idea, Should make it a passive, arcane fighter is 100% useless and a waste of skill points, they could have a passive that bypasses up 50% of a block, put a 5 second CD on it.

*make it real nice and have it also give some minor armor pen.*

YES!!!
it would not make the skill line competitive with the "best ones" as i will call them(as weapon damage is still garbage) but would make it at least viable. course there is still the matter of DW and bow..... ach. hopefully they achieve at least some kind of balance in the future. i feel stupid for making a 2h char right now, as the damage i can do with it, is horrible compared to many other builds i tried:/
they just need to buff up weapon damage, and go thru these abilities and do a complete re-do. for ALL weapons.

Use your mark target I don't really know what to say if you're a nb and use mark target + surprise attacks that's 115% armor shredded you are hitting for true damage any more things we can clear up?

Rune_Relic

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

I think people focus on dps way too much. If every class could dps the same there would be no point in having classes.

dragonknight is a tank class
tempkar is a healing class
sorc is a damage class
nightblade is a stealth class

that's how zenimax intended the game to be designed. Sure templar can tank, but there not as good at it as the dk. Sorcs can heal, but not as good as the templar.

this is both good and bad, good that each class is the best in its envisioned role, and bad because the "play as you want to" is not as flexible as many thought.

just my 2 cents

I'm just curious since I've never seen 'stealth' as part of the trinity before. What is exactly the benefit a stealth class would bring in a group setting. Since this is an mmo and all. Designing a class concept around something that is mostly useless in groups seems sort of silly. Or is the stealth groups strength it's ability to not be invited pve groups?

There is an answer to this... some quest should require traps and stealth to evade. Thats the whole point of the thieves guild. Thieves do not get involved in battle and try to avoid it. So need stealth and roll dodge enhancements along with light armour and long range light damage with good detection skills

Luvsfuzzybunnies

pecheckler wrote: »

Play the way you want

Developer mistake #1: classes

Uninformed player mistake #1 thinking the absence of classessential would create more diversity. I might cite a few examples for you to help you better understand. Shield bash was mighty overpowered for a month at launch. Most players ran around with 1h/sh. Case # 2 vampirism was horribly imbalanced and able to exploited to stack ults vampires appeared in droves overnight. Impulse spam and resto staff + light armor (as mentioned in the op) used by a majority of players cause it provides the most dps for any class. It is not a coincidence that people tend towards the strongest builds it is in fact a direct correlation *me want do good damage me use fotm best damage build*. So making all skills open to everyone would create a less diverse game. At which point I'd be fine not playing any longer since there is no challenge only who can press their button in the most rapid of successions. No thinking required cause everyone uses the same mechanics. So you have 1 bar for defense and 1 for offense fights either end super fast or never end depending on whether or not cc has been fixed. You want another single player game and this is an mmo where people want the diversity for challenge.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Kego wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

But in PVE, the damage and utility of NB feels pretty meh.

I mean look at Restraining Prison for the Sorcerer. An AOE root that increases crit rate by 15%? AND they get the single target mez that NB gets, but that gives them 15% crit as well while ours gives us what? A poof of crap damage when it ends?

Than use Shadowy Disguise that gives us a 100% Crit Chance. And Any Mob that is not Fear Immun will die easly against a NB, cause Fear does not break through DMG, means you can just Fear - DMG - Fear - DMG until you are OOM...oh wait, that will never happen with Leeching Strike.

NB is fine and it is the strongest Class, if you think about using Stamina Builds, cause we have an Insane Stamina Regen through the 30% Passive, and with the new Caps, the 40% out of Haste Buff.

For 1.4 ZOS needs to make their next moves with:

- Remove 10% DMG to all Skills via Resto Staff
- Rework Elemental Drain from Destruction Weapon
- Evocation from Light Armor, Magicka Cost Reduction from 3% to 2% per peace.
- Remove "see Invisible" from Mage Light and Morphs. It should just work against hidden Enemies. Same for the Potion.

Some minor tweaks but they are necessary, before ZOS moves deeper into Skill Buffs from Weapon Lines.

I like the idea of actually making cloak viable by not allowing 26 m visibility on invisible targets. Sneak sure a class ability requiring 400 Magick a per cast for 2.5 seconds not so much.

Darkonflare15

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

Play the way you want

Developer mistake #1: classes

Uninformed player mistake #1 thinking the absence of classessential would create more diversity. I might cite a few examples for you to help you better understand. Shield bash was mighty overpowered for a month at launch. Most players ran around with 1h/sh. Case # 2 vampirism was horribly imbalanced and able to exploited to stack ults vampires appeared in droves overnight. Impulse spam and resto staff + light armor (as mentioned in the op) used by a majority of players cause it provides the most dps for any class. It is not a coincidence that people tend towards the strongest builds it is in fact a direct correlation *me want do good damage me use fotm best damage build*. So making all skills open to everyone would create a less diverse game. At which point I'd be fine not playing any longer since there is no challenge only who can press their button in the most rapid of successions. No thinking required cause everyone uses the same mechanics. So you have 1 bar for defense and 1 for offense fights either end super fast or never end depending on whether or not cc has been fixed. You want another single player game and this is an mmo where people want the diversity for challenge.

I always considered classes to be a skeleton of what you want to play as. Building blocks for your character with passives and skills you would want use. Now if we have more skills and abilities outside of the classes it would be more elder scrolls like. When we start getting the thieves guild and the Dark Brother hood skill lines, spell crafting, and the passives for the undaunted skill line with some fixes to the classes we be able to have plenty of viable builds other than the fotm builds. Then this game would be awesome.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Kypho wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

One of my guild leaders plays a NB with DW and Resto and 7 medium. He is stacked up on weapon crit with the latest patch and wrecks face.

And, he uses a Stick....

And, dual wield. He also uses a bow intermittently. The point being the NB is very strong if you understand how to use the abilities to your advantage. The fact is this: NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game, period. There are enough proven facts out there, it should be indisputable, but of course there are so many morons playing ESO that don't know how to play that these facts get brushed under the rug.

And you are DK right?

Haha good job man funny lol for you.

CapuchinSeven

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

I don't believe people that wear heavy armor should be able to pull the type of DPS a person in medium/light should, and it's true due to lack of crit. I'm simply saying the weapons themselves suck. Medium and light should be the DPS builds, light also being healer, medium also being good at stealth. I haven't tested out DW too much but I know it's not much better than 2 hander if at all. They simply need to balance the weapons, every one except resto staff/S&B should be a very viable choice for putting out dmg in a group setting. There are useless passives/morphs in the 2 hand tree that need to be changed, and I'm sure the same can go for DW. They seem to have a problem balancing PvP and PvE and making it work for both, but the solution to that is simply in the scaling you get going into PvP. Fix PvE, then adjust the scaling of abilities for PvP. Other than that healing is fine and tanking is fine. Gear changes from update 3 was only a small step in the right direction.

Why not? Light and Medium armor can tank, and dps just fine..

Instead of re-balancing so heavy provides a definitive advantage for tanking, why not just allow it to be worn by melee dps and make it as competitive?

There is no reason the play style can't be differentiated, i.e. make it a heavy weapon damage build instead of crit and make. I'd much rather they expanded on the number of viable choices rather than limiting them, it is still an Elder Scrolls game after all.

true... but crit is where it's at for PvE DPS, heavy gives 0 crit. It gives weapon dmg, but weapon dmg is so terrible it's not even funny. As much as I'd like to wear full armor and put out crazy amounts of dmg I just think it would be better if they pushed heavy more for PvP, where crit isn't as important, and for tanking.

Crit not important in pvp? I guess that's why no one runs impenetrable trait on armor right? Crack in me up you are.

His point is valid you're just dusting around that issue and pretending it's simple to make your point, which you fail at.

It's a circle, impenetrable reduces critical so much you have to stack a ton to have an effect, so it ends up going full circle and it's misty not going to get you anywhere in terms of crit.

That point gets deeper when you consider that in light armour with the right skills and passives you can have a ton of crit anyway.

Bouvin

I'd hate to see this game go down the path of Age of Conan or Warhammer Online. But if that's what Zenimax wants to do.....

Luvsfuzzybunnies

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

I don't believe people that wear heavy armor should be able to pull the type of DPS a person in medium/light should, and it's true due to lack of crit. I'm simply saying the weapons themselves suck. Medium and light should be the DPS builds, light also being healer, medium also being good at stealth. I haven't tested out DW too much but I know it's not much better than 2 hander if at all. They simply need to balance the weapons, every one except resto staff/S&B should be a very viable choice for putting out dmg in a group setting. There are useless passives/morphs in the 2 hand tree that need to be changed, and I'm sure the same can go for DW. They seem to have a problem balancing PvP and PvE and making it work for both, but the solution to that is simply in the scaling you get going into PvP. Fix PvE, then adjust the scaling of abilities for PvP. Other than that healing is fine and tanking is fine. Gear changes from update 3 was only a small step in the right direction.

Why not? Light and Medium armor can tank, and dps just fine..

Instead of re-balancing so heavy provides a definitive advantage for tanking, why not just allow it to be worn by melee dps and make it as competitive?

There is no reason the play style can't be differentiated, i.e. make it a heavy weapon damage build instead of crit and make. I'd much rather they expanded on the number of viable choices rather than limiting them, it is still an Elder Scrolls game after all.

true... but crit is where it's at for PvE DPS, heavy gives 0 crit. It gives weapon dmg, but weapon dmg is so terrible it's not even funny. As much as I'd like to wear full armor and put out crazy amounts of dmg I just think it would be better if they pushed heavy more for PvP, where crit isn't as important, and for tanking.

Crit not important in pvp? I guess that's why no one runs impenetrable trait on armor right? Crack in me up you are.

His point is valid you're just dusting around that issue and pretending it's simple to make your point, which you fail at.

It's a circle, impenetrable reduces critical so much you have to stack a ton to have an effect, so it ends up going full circle and it's misty not going to get you anywhere in terms of crit.

That point gets deeper when you consider that in light armour with the right skills and passives you can have a ton of crit anyway.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

I don't believe people that wear heavy armor should be able to pull the type of DPS a person in medium/light should, and it's true due to lack of crit. I'm simply saying the weapons themselves suck. Medium and light should be the DPS builds, light also being healer, medium also being good at stealth. I haven't tested out DW too much but I know it's not much better than 2 hander if at all. They simply need to balance the weapons, every one except resto staff/S&B should be a very viable choice for putting out dmg in a group setting. There are useless passives/morphs in the 2 hand tree that need to be changed, and I'm sure the same can go for DW. They seem to have a problem balancing PvP and PvE and making it work for both, but the solution to that is simply in the scaling you get going into PvP. Fix PvE, then adjust the scaling of abilities for PvP. Other than that healing is fine and tanking is fine. Gear changes from update 3 was only a small step in the right direction.

Why not? Light and Medium armor can tank, and dps just fine..

Instead of re-balancing so heavy provides a definitive advantage for tanking, why not just allow it to be worn by melee dps and make it as competitive?

There is no reason the play style can't be differentiated, i.e. make it a heavy weapon damage build instead of crit and make. I'd much rather they expanded on the number of viable choices rather than limiting them, it is still an Elder Scrolls game after all.

true... but crit is where it's at for PvE DPS, heavy gives 0 crit. It gives weapon dmg, but weapon dmg is so terrible it's not even funny. As much as I'd like to wear full armor and put out crazy amounts of dmg I just think it would be better if they pushed heavy more for PvP, where crit isn't as important, and for tanking.

Crit not important in pvp? I guess that's why no one runs impenetrable trait on armor right? Crack in me up you are.

His point is valid you're just dusting around that issue and pretending it's simple to make your point, which you fail at.

It's a circle, impenetrable reduces critical so much you have to stack a ton to have an effect, so it ends up going full circle and it's misty not going to get you anywhere in terms of crit.

That point gets deeper when you consider that in light armour with the right skills and passives you can have a ton of crit anyway.

So what you're saying is crit is important and helping to further my point which you said was fail? Circle logic or not if crit wasn't important in pvp no one would have impenetrable trait on their armor. We can have conversations where you try to directly insult me all day but in your post you admitted people stack the impen trait so players stack more crit therefore validating my argument.

Galrukh

But at some point, people have stacked all their pieces with Impenetrable and you can't crit them anymore or at best get 5-10% which isnt worth it if you have to go all out on crit just to get it, at that point crit becomes a lot less valuable because it becomes too expensive to get it.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

I'm not debating that impen reduces crit chance. I'm saying it's a pretty important pvp Stat as getting more crits = faster kills. But you can go on how your crit chance is reduced by a certain % but the fact of the matter is as long as you have some crit % you will get those rng crits cause a small % is still a % and you still want the max of that % so you stack crit. But hey you won't hurt my feelings if you don't keep your crit chance high.

moxiesauce

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

I don't believe people that wear heavy armor should be able to pull the type of DPS a person in medium/light should, and it's true due to lack of crit. I'm simply saying the weapons themselves suck. Medium and light should be the DPS builds, light also being healer, medium also being good at stealth. I haven't tested out DW too much but I know it's not much better than 2 hander if at all. They simply need to balance the weapons, every one except resto staff/S&B should be a very viable choice for putting out dmg in a group setting. There are useless passives/morphs in the 2 hand tree that need to be changed, and I'm sure the same can go for DW. They seem to have a problem balancing PvP and PvE and making it work for both, but the solution to that is simply in the scaling you get going into PvP. Fix PvE, then adjust the scaling of abilities for PvP. Other than that healing is fine and tanking is fine. Gear changes from update 3 was only a small step in the right direction.

Why not? Light and Medium armor can tank, and dps just fine..

Instead of re-balancing so heavy provides a definitive advantage for tanking, why not just allow it to be worn by melee dps and make it as competitive?

There is no reason the play style can't be differentiated, i.e. make it a heavy weapon damage build instead of crit and make. I'd much rather they expanded on the number of viable choices rather than limiting them, it is still an Elder Scrolls game after all.

true... but crit is where it's at for PvE DPS, heavy gives 0 crit. It gives weapon dmg, but weapon dmg is so terrible it's not even funny. As much as I'd like to wear full armor and put out crazy amounts of dmg I just think it would be better if they pushed heavy more for PvP, where crit isn't as important, and for tanking.

Crit not important in pvp? I guess that's why no one runs impenetrable trait on armor right? Crack in me up you are.

isn't impenetrable a trait to resist being crit... if everyone has it no one gets crit.. making crit less desirable over pure damage.

Bolo_Bob

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

What frustrates me no end is this:



Is completely unviable in end game.

A heavy armor wrecking machine. I am hoping that when ZOS are done with their balancing they do consider a way to allow melee characters to do so in heavy armor

see how he looks depressed in the picture?

see how his armor is partially broken? (notice the horn)

see the embers flying? he is about to get nailed by a fire spell.

mfxdrew

Have all the magic trees with passives to each individual school of magic have all the separate armors with passives for each ones then have a 2h,1h and shield trees with their own passives maybe a button that does something special with each one eg shield blocks spells and arrows and can attack from behind it for extra defense, dual wield has crazy attack speed, and 2h can knock down enemies, get rid of all class abilities and classes don't have anything for staves except maybe if you have lots of points in alteration tree and use an alteration staff you get a bonus, test it all out so each character basically kills each other equally only the person skill determines the victor or you can build something for specific situations....a full restoration build with a healing staff and light armor should not beat anyone but 5 dps versus 4 dps with a healer the 4 with a healer wins all depending on each person individual build of course and game fixed. no need to thank me. this is an mmo but if you ever played an mmo get your expectations out of my elderscrolls game because elderscrolls comes first in the title

Atreyu

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Crit not important in pvp? I guess that's why no one runs impenetrable trait on armor right? Crack in me up you are.

yes but you know what's the best part?

We use impenetrable to negate crit.

but then most good pvpers spec around non-crit based specs.

so basically we wear impenetrable because otherwise we would spec for crit, but we actually don't.

Wat.

Ninnghizhidda

AlayaM wrote: »

The thing is, in Morrowind / Oblivion / Skyrim you had no "skillbar" like we have in ESO with the 5 buttons/ultimate slot.
It was only light/heavy attacks. As far as i remember ES games never had any hotkey-skills for weapons.
You could only do a light OR heavy attack OR cast a spell, nothing like the animation cancelling BS we have here, resulting in slower combat.

If you wanted to use a different spell you had to hotkey it or open your spellbook to swap (i guess this is our 5-skill-button-bar since you can not pause the game).

On armor: the single player ES games had no stupid OP passive skills like light armor has in ESO. Aside from the look and the enchantments on it, armor seemed to not be that much of a factor in ES (at least to me).

These are quite valid points indeed. And the main reason ESO has created such a mess and is a disappointment in these aspects of the game, and has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls really.

Alright, they had to "invent" something to translate into the MMO style, and they made the worst possible choices.

First, they create a bloody magicka based game, STRICTLY, and this is the only and plain truth. By definition you are a "mage", if you try not to be, you are nothing.

Second, the laughable "skill bar" with those awesome 5 slots (and the even more laughable "swap weapons" option). This is also strictly for the CONSOLES, which versions aren't even out yet, and we will be all "beta testing" for their release for several (sub paid) months.

The ridiculous "5 slot skill bar", neither follows the Elder Scrolls games legacy, nor makes ESO a "Diablo" (quite simply because Diablo games have a different philosophy and approach and work MUCH better with the few skills they allow you to have slotted).

The above two facts, have more or less hampered ESO from day one, especially the whole freaking "mages" story. Yeah, many people like it as it is, the console generation will love it, the "easy go cast spells while nothing touches me" crowd loves it already as well.

Unfortunately for the Zeni darlings, not everyone falls in the above categories, and even if we are talking about a "minority", good luck losing 10-20-30% (or whatever) of such people (and subs). In other words, they are probably waiting to hit the jackpot with the console versions, or preparing for F2P, or maybe both. I keep hoping the 2nd will never happen though, and instead they will wake up and get their act together.